Priitaa

Quick answer: 1) I don't think he ever lived in it. 2) The spiritual master who is a pure devotee should be viewed and treated as good as God. He is not God, but since he is Gods representative and therefore can give you God, he is treated this way. So we can give him gold, jewelery, fancy chariots or cars, and he is not attached. Not to think one who is pure can loose interest in attachment to Krishna and be swayed by material opulence. No. He doesn't even want them, but accpets them so WE will make spiriutal advancement.

Good point! It is hard for some to understand why George specifically got away with all he did, yet was able to chant Hare Krishna at the time of death. It is not by chance anyone can do this, as it is mostly mercy. I read such a quote by Prabhupada. So if by Krishna's grace or mercy, and Prabhupada's, George was facilitated to do so, even with the gurgle in his throat, the mucous, the suffocation, etc. If we are not careful, and wonder 'too hard' why he got to enjoy so much yet do this, people may become envious that this famous person achieved what they have yet to achieve. But now our eyes have been opened as this is brought out front, and we can all quietly look inside and see if that was what was going on, or not. Not saying it is a definite, just a possibility that only each peson can answer for themselves. - Must run! Haribol.

Haridhama, If you think thats ruffling of feathers, you are definitely new to these boards. haha It may be a littie debate at best, but no one has made outright offenses. (Unless I missed something.) Nothing to worry about, as 'no talk' is what is more inclined to result in problems and therefore offenses, than talking would. Tho I do agree we should all remember to be respectful of each other when posting. Any point can be made when it is politely expressed. With that said tho, you aint seen nothing. haha (I mention this cuz I've seen much worse on these boards.) So, not to worry -- all is well and you didn't cause anything. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Be careful, as George was without a doubt, a devotee of Krishna, and while he had his weaknesses with following properly, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. We may not understand how one who was inclined toward intoxication (tho he may have given that up toward the last decade or so, but not sure), and the 'habit' (not choice) of smoking cigarettes (which he hated), or living the odd lifestyle he lived, can simultaneously be a Vaisnava, and stayed one for all those years. Let's just say he had an unusual situation, and to a degree, special arrangement. Not that all he did was acceptable. No. Only that he was forgiven plus granted mercy, to the best of my understanding. After all, how many of us think we could live in that type of situaiton with the opposite sex throwing themselves at our feet, with intoxication being given as a gift regularly, with everyone treating you like a guru even tho you do not want to be, and associating with the most fallen because it is your job or whatever reason -- how many of us honestly feel we could have done much better than he did under those circumstances? Looking at it that way, he did darn good! Therefore I humbly suggest we avoid criticizing George, becuase he went back to Godhead regardless of such problems. Besides, I also heard (but dont have the quote) that a devotee criticized George to Srila Prabhuapda, stating George did not rise early or go to the monring program, that he did not chant all his rounds, etc., and Prabhupada replied that George has done more devotional service than we could do in many lifetimes, so we should not criticize. Does anyone have that quote? I admit I am not sure on this one, but have heard it for decades so I suspect its true. Anyhow, I do have the quote where Prabhupada says George is his disciple and more than his discple, and that George does not require formal initiation. I dont feel like digging out its source, but will if asked. Why didn't George give money to ISKOCN? First of all, I am not so quick to believe he didn't. I have often suspected that at least a little, he did and they just wanted evryone to stop talking about it. A godsister in England wrote to me about a year ago regarding some expensive improvements going on which she wondered where they got the money form. But if he didn't give $$, so what? Iskcon is not the only source for Vaisnavism, one can be a wonderful devotee and not belong. Secondly, with all the politics in ISKCON I don't think George was stupid or unaware of them. I suspect he knew things had changed since the old days. I doubt he got into the details, but lets face it, he was actually here in the very beginning of the movement (therefore making him a 'senior' devotee!). Thus he had first hand association with Srila Prabhupada. He knew the highest, knew how ISKCON was back then and how it is now. I don't want to get into all this, as I still believe in the higher ISKCON and don't wish the the subject to be changed from spiriutal to material politics. Simply am pointing out that I suspect George was aware. Just as many of us often think how, if we give a big donation, will it get where its going or will it end up in someone's pocket, he may have also thought like that. The fact that his family was disturbed by the newspaper articles, etc., that George gave ISKCON money also does not bother me. We need to remember, they are not him. His wife is more into SRF than ISKCON. And I find no offense in what they said. Not that I'm thrilled with it, I just know they are not Prabhupada disciples like he is (uniquely), they are probably tired of being taken advantage of in general so are extra careful, and they are their own individual persons. Anyway, somehow or other, George chanted Hare Krishna at the time of death. This is a most important point. Tho I never read any proof that he was listening to Prabhupada chant then, as one poster said, yet I hope so. Does anyone have evidence? Even the stories of the devotees with him at the last minute (time of passing) turned out to be propaganda. However, Ravi Shankara's daughter went public when everyone was claiming George's last words were "Love one another," to correct that. She pointed out she heard his last words herself, and they were "Hare Krishna." Therefore shastra guarantees anyone who chants the names of the Lord at the time of death, goes to the Lord. And also therefore, while we may not understand why he got to enjoy his senses to the max and still go back to Godhead, whereas we have to work like crazy with all sorts of austerities to go back Home, our opinion doesn't matter. He did it, lets not be envious of him but instead feel happiness for him. With that said, I was hoping this thread would lead to names of other famous persons who are devotees, more than Boy George. A list of them would be great! I am curious.

Be patient with her. Leave books lying around the house (once you get here there), possibly Krishna Book or something you think she may enjoy (and remember, that may be something different than what you are attracted to.) Don't shove anything down her throat. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Sometimes in our overzealousness, or at least excitement, we think the other person will feel what we feel, if only we can express it to them. To a dgree yes, but with excitement its easy to keep going on and on and on. So sense control is required here. I have known many where only one person in the marriage was a devotee, but those who were patient and did not criticize their partner or put them down, yet gradually, politely played maybe one Prabhupada lecture (listen to it first and pick a mellow one), or left one small book on the living room table, etc., and did not cross examine their spouse if they liked it or not, now their spouse is a devotee too. Those who became impatient and pushy, were too often the looser. Hope this helps.

Myra makes an excellent point here! (Thank you Myra.) Gour Hari also makes the same point in a different way. You need to let go of what others think of you, of the position of parents or the community they live in, and do whats best for you and your new family which starts with your wife (new family). If you are in a temple, they should help you or at least support your cause. If not, you may have to let go of those authorities too. Its time grhasta life was encouraged by our temples, and some are. In any case, you need employment and then this problem will go away. It may not be easy, but its the right thing to do.

You mention you have no job. Is there a reason for that? Do you have a green card? Or dependent on the temple? It seems to me if you got a job, this problem could be resolved. I'm just wondering what's standing in your way of employment. The rumors about your wife sound outrageously ridiculous. I agree with you, 'so what' if she needed dental care of surgery. Thats called health care! Every person needs it sooner or later, and no one goes into surgery or to the dentist on purpose, its not fun. Regarding a desire she might have to come to America, there is no proof of that but even if she does, it is probably coupled with her desire to be with her husband. What is wrong with two (married) people desiring to travel, or end up, in the same country together? I do not see that as manipulation in the least. These rumors sound vicious, and I wonder if those circulating them have forgotten about the law of karma. What goes around, comes around; what they do unto others gets done unto them, and of course Gita quotes. Its proven everywhere, so they should be careful. Anyway, if you got a job they would all be behind you two, as you could bring her over here and live your own lives.

Something similar happened to me once, tho not as a child. (I agree its harder for a kid to wait like that.) For me it was right before I learned about Krishna conscioiusness but was searcihng. People started to tell me of this Dr. Mishra in Pa. He had an ashrama there. So one day I drove up with my friends. Dr. Mishra was to be arriving that very day! So I waited. This was the first time I would see any Indian teacher. Shortly afer his arrival, one teenage girl found a bird outside whose wing was broken and looked like it might die. She was carefully holding it in her hands, very concerned over it. Upon seeing Dr. Mishra, she rushed over and showed it to him, explaining the plight of the bird. Dr. Mishra almost igored her. She must have thought very highly of him or had faith in him, so she didn't let him slide. She spoke up again, showing him the bird again, told him how sick the bird was and so on, again. This time, and I suspect its because there were many people around him, he placed his two hands over the bird, as if to wish it well. We were all apeased but not satisfied. When I left I said to my friend, "Did yo usee how he did not care about the bird?" And that did it for me. If a saintly person can't show a little honest compassion over helpless, less intelligent and therefore vulnerable animals, than I found it hard to accept him as saintly, or at least not as guru material. I decided right than and there that I did not want to follow his path. Srila Prabhuapda on the other hand, was always kind to the animals, sometimes even indicating to some devotees that they should have treated the animal more kindly.

"Indians are always on time except when they are late!" ------ And then there is Hare Krishna time. LOL You know if they tell you something will start at 6 P.M., tha no one is showing up until at least 7 PM (probably for aroti), or after class 8 PM. ha And thats if its at the temple. In someones home, there is nothing to measure it against, so 6 PM could mean 9 PM. ha Yup, Hare Krishna time. :-)

Good point Gaurasundara, tho I doubt this guy was rolling in Vrndavana dust. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

"Though godbrothers or godsisters can give the type of advice you are suggesting above. " -also guru can.. why not? guru is for learning and to have advices -- Guru may admit you are having trouble, but he can not give that advice. That is the quality of guru, he must always give first class instruction. Actually, I have never once seen Prabhupada give that type of advice or instruction, so I am basing my belief and understanding on his actions toward his disciples. However, we can learn from siksa guru aslo, which is sometimes each other. :-) ------- "There was something sweet to the concept of saving all souls and anyone could move in." -yes.. but like we learn in bhagavad gita, one has to be saved accepting him as a brahmachary, one as a grihasta, one as vanaprasta, one as sannyasi..... basically arjuna was believing that if he would go to the temple or the hermitage, he became a better devotee,,, krishna said nooo!! -- I wasn't saying that because we let so many move in, that we did it the right way. No. One had to be trained up, and even then we spoke like that. But I dont believe temple devotees are better devotee ha, not me! It is an excellent place to start tho, to get trained up, to gain in strength so we can take it with us into our grhasta homes. Back to investigating those who move in: To check them out further, and in some cases, or in cases where men worked with children or women, or were to be given an authorativie position in the temple, a background check should have been done. Also in some cases, tho not sure how to do it, to check out their minds, deisres (pedophiles tend to wiggle themselves into positions over children for example), and so on. Not that people shouldn't move in by the hundreds, but that we should stop doing it wrong and develop a system to do it in a workable manner. -------- " People were nearly breaking down our doors to join in the 70s" -sure.. but people thanks to the policy "join=temple". were blooping out also at these times.... -- Well, I just explained above how its not the policy of people moving in that was wrong, but us, or the way we handled it. Anyhow here's some other points. You see, it was Prabhupada who wanted so many people to join the temple. That was our mood because it was his. Now, he didn't want dangerous or crazy people to join, no. (Although they could live at home and attend the temple.) But pious people so they could be trained and advance to the level of a good devotee. Prabhupada was always happy when someone joined. As far as blooping is concerned, most of them didn't really bloop. That would mean giivng up Krishna, and most I spoke with at that time who so-call blooped, just couldn't handle temple life. They were still devoees. Sure, some broke the principles at first, but eventually most calmed down and got married, lived a sane life. Matter of fact, some of them are now doing better than some who were not considered to have blooped. The reason is that at least they were, and are, honest, so they are able to maintain. And I wish to add that not all who left broke principles. So that we open our doors to so many who may later *bloop* is fine with me, because it just means they are practicing at home in most cases, and would not have been able to do that had they not joined (for most anyway). And what about those who did not continue to practice Krishna consciousness? At least they started on their spiritual journey, they have made some advancement and will pick up in their next life where they left off in this one. -------- tapasya has also the meaning of coherence in the time... one who is renunciated only for some years is more a disturb than a advantage hahaha So true! /images/graemlins/smile.gif ---------- "To forget about sex is good. To forget is not repression either" - to forget is not good... good is to find a better taste (krishna) and to prefere it with consciousness -- There are different types of forgetting. I am not speaking about denial or repression (which is what I suspect you keep thinking I am speaking of), no, but to get it out of the mind, to think of something else, to take energy away from it by engaging the mind, and body, in some other activity. Sure, its more first class to get a taste for Krishna & prefer meditating on Him, but tell that to someone in the middle of sexual desires! ha Realistically, they can't stop or alter their consciousness at that moment with higher thoughts. So what I'm suggesting here are steps, thats all. To take the needed steps to get the mind/body under control. Otherwise it reminds me of the times when I was sick in the temple ashrama with the flu and was told "We don't go to doctors. We just depend on Krishna." Of course you know we do go to doctors, but back then that was the misunderstanding. Therefore I am speaking here of taking steps to help get a handle over sex desire, steps specific addressing the need of the physical and mental malady, when I speak of getting active or forgetting (not denial, etc). Then add Krishna. ------------ "Better to tire oneself out than to fall into maya." -yes.. but the problem is that when energy returns.. also maya returns -- Who said it wont return? hehe Until we become pure devotees, it will return repeatedly. This is why it is nice to have a combination of methods to help us stay on top of it. The most efficient method is to live in an ashrama! Now I am not saying it is necessary benefic in other areas, but when it comes to celibacy, when living with other celibate persons, that makes it 100 times easier! --------------- "What is anger?" -anger is that i am angry because i am not krsna conscious and i believe that i am god and all the sense's objects are mine, it is obviously not possible, i am frustrated and i get angry -- I wasn't asking this as a question to be answered. But OK, while it is those things you mentioned, it is still made up of physical and mental energy that needs a source of release. ---------- "Just a method that has been known amongst devotees to work when coupled with something spiritual. " -i like it more if you say: spirit is the main thing, to be chaste is essential to live a spiritual life, if one is sufficiently "spiritual" and avoids gross and subtle "temptations"... everything works well -- Thanks. And yes, that would be a solution, to avoid tempations. They come at all angles tho, and sneak in. ------------- tapasya, is not to be coupled with love for krsna, -- I have never read that in shastra. Following the 4 regs IS tapasya, getting up at 4 a.m. for Mongala IS tapasya, and lets face it, even chanting 16 rounds daily is tapasya since most of us don't have a full taste for chanting. ("How many rounds you have left prabhu?" we would ask. ha) Going on on Sankirtana is tapasya, and so many other things. But it is the type of tapasya --- Oh, Maybe thats what you mean, as these types of tapasay increase love of Krishna. --------- "Actually, I find it rather refreshing. " -you are very kind and devotee... homages also from Purnima D.Dasi.. my wife!! -- Purnima, what a lovely name! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Thank you. (P.S., I am a grandma. Two years now. Its still new and exciting to me. Another generation of devotees! Hurray!)

Actually, Prabhupada said this. I have the quote somewhere. Funny, you just stated it from reading the books, but its something Prabhupada really said! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Thanks. (Am wondering what a joy thread is.)

I_L_K, Oh, he is not suffering. He is merely taking in the prana from the sun. Not only does this relieve suffering but can also heal. He's probably not aging fast. Many Reiki (as in ki, chi, prana) use this same energy, but of course they are not as expert as yogis! /images/graemlins/smile.gif However, as Vaisnavas we are more attracted to lovingly serving Krishna than mystic yoga, though its interesting. Thiest, Potato chip level, haha, thats a good one! And yes, we must be careful not to become distracted on our path back to Home, back to Godhead. That's maya's job, to distract us. Only by taking shelter of the pure devotee are we protected.

gH, Thats an incredible story! The old days, they were great. Interesting how George kept staring at you from the stage. Yeah, probably was the Gita. I wonder how Sriman George is doing now? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Probably better than me!

I should add, when one accepts austerities, they can bring about some degree of world changes, but those austerities must be based in shastra. Never read a word about rolling in shastra.

LOL LOL Sorry, but that's just funny, because its so stupid. ha Whatever makes a 'sadhu' think rolling down filthy dirty streets is going to make any changes toward peace in the world is beyond me. Just a concotion, that's all. Get him a "Slip and Slide" instead - its faster. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Haribol Yasodanandana prabhu, Oh, I think your English is fine. I grew up with a grandmother who spoke broken Italian, and what you type is easier to understand than what she spoke! /images/graemlins/smile.gif ME:"As far as asking what 'degree' it can be followed, there is no acceptable 'degree' a guru can authorize" YOU: -but a guru cannot kill or reject a disciple... : "if you can sincerely do like that.. do that and pray krsna to be soon at the required level" Yes, but once the disciple takes initiation it is their responsibility to keep their promises. The guru is not rejecting the disciple by mainting a high standard. It is not that I mean to kick the diciple away, no. Simply that a guru must give only first class standard and keep giving it. If the disciple is haivng difficulty, the problem is theirs. (And usually a lack of feeling very Krisna C.) Though godbrothers or godsisters can give the type of advice you are suggesting above. ME: "However, glad to hear you agree that pedophlies are not acting out becuase they can't get a woman, but because they always had this disease. I did my homework. :-)" YOU: -the mistake was not that some "devotees" became pedophiles, the problem was that at the times the only way to be accepted as devotees was to live in the temple, and the authorities were very glad to accept everyone without discrimination to increase manpower (i am not discussing the intentions!!)" True, they did not discriminate. There was something sweet to the concept of saving all souls and anyone could move in. But that does not mean it couldn't have been done a better way. Some investigation at least into those who would work with children, or even women, or even simple brahmacari's, should have been a requirement from the authorities. ME: " In the old days, everyone was so into Krishna C that it was not hard to follow properly" YOU: - partially, we ever had many people coming and going in any time Not sure what you mean here, if the word 'ever' was suppose to be 'never,' that would not be the case. People were nearly breaking down our doors to join in the 70s. Or maybe you mean it hasn't happened since? ME: "So one can go out and preach or do temple service or chant (if they walk while chanting), etc., and by combining the two, it helps reduce sex deisre. This is not artificial repression, its more factual, like taking an aspirin gets rid of a headache." YOU: -yes it is ok... but you surely know how subtle can be the difference between hyperactivity to forget the problems or intense devotional service" Hyperactivity may be there, but if it is, it always was. If people have issues they use hyperactivity to avoid dealing with, they are therefore in denial and giving them a resting place or something sattvic to do will not change that. I know because I've seen it over the years. Those who want to stay that way when the rest were changing, stayed that way even in the midst of change. There in denial and will stay in denial until they make a mental change. But a preson doesn't become hyper from doing something thats medically a fact or biologically helpful. For example, I read of this one man who had extreme pain all the time. The doctors refused to give him anything for it because it required a strong drug. So the man was left nearly crippled. Finally he went to another country and got some morphine. He took it and it did not get him high, it only made him normal. He could finally walk around, drive, move, etc., but never was intoxicated. Why? Because when one is in *need* of something, the body/mind uses it beneficially. But when one is abusing the drug, or taking advanatage of anything, or maybe doing it too much, than it can't help and thats when intoxication sets in. The body does not need it, it *wants* it. Hmmmm Makes me realize, however, this could also apply to maintaining a desire for sex, that too could make one hyper. ME:" (if they walk while chanting)" YOU: - nahh.. walk while chant to be tired and forget the sex?..... sure? (maybe i do not understand the language)" Devotees always walk while chanting. Its not some unusual suggestion. ha And tired is not hyper. To forget about sex is good. To forget is not repression either. Better to tire oneself out than to fall into maya. I remember in the ashrama it was said we should be so tired by the end of the day (from doing so much devotional service) that we will fall asleep the minute our head hits the pillow. YOU: so... basically i agree with you.. only the "guru" subject remains Well, now you may also disagree with me on tiring one self out or trying to forget sex desire, in order to 'help' gain sense control. ha And its not that I mean this is the only method to employ, just not to throw a workable mehtod out the window. Its a fact that it works. Matter of fact, often getting active also works for controlling anger. What is anger? Its a lot of energy pent up in the mind and body. When we can find a peaceful way to release it, very often the anger is let go in a postive way and we no longer have it. So we chop wood, carry water. (Go on book distribution, etc.) The same for sex desire; this is not about artifical renunciaiton, repressoin, hyperactivity, etc. Just a method that has been known amongst devotees to work when coupled with something spiritual. YOU: sorry for my basic english.. believe me if i say that i appear to be "arsh" and not kind because i do not know so many ways to say the same thing" Actually, I find it rather refreshing.

Thank you for mentioning this. We are not Christians or Muslims. We are not even Hindus tho in this case some Hindus practice Krishna consciousness, but some don't and worship Lord Shiva or demi-gods, practice impersonalism, advaitin or mayavadis. We worship the Personal *form* of Sri Sri Radha Krishna! That should be honored by all posters.

I don't know if its an offense or not. One the one hand, animals are not suppose to go into the temple. On the other, I have heard incredible stories where Prabhupada said this or that animal who either came to the temple or came for prasadam, was a special soul. I guess it all depends on how you kicked him out, gently or frighteningly. But next time, give him prasadam peanuts! /images/graemlins/smile.gif You can use them to tempt him to go outside yet he will see you are not going to harm him. When I joined, it was in Brooklyn NY, and at the time a certain cat came regularly to the brahmacarini window in the prasadam room at breakfast. One deovtee told me that Prabhupada had visted the temple and made some comment about this cat being a special soul. I forget the details, but it might have been a yogi in his past life, or that may have been another animal ha but either way it remains fact that they are unique. I even heard a story of two spiders in his cup and he told the devotees they were special! Does anyone know any of these details? (I have to start writing things down. We forget as we get older!) Also, on a walk once some birds were in fromt of Prabhupada and cluttering up the walkway. A deovtee chased them off, saying, "You rascals!" And Prabhuapda said (rough quote) "You are thinking they are the rascals, but they are thinking you are the rascal."

Original marriages in the beginning of the movement took place in front of the Deities, and even later on. Prabhupada was not against marriage in front of Deities, but since there was a high failure rate in marriages, therefore first to perfom a ceremony not in front of Deities, tho maybe later one could do that if there was ample evidence the marriage was working. What I find more disturbing is that the temples would give marriage ceremony to Hindus in front of Deities and not to their own congregation! This was for $$$. If we could have paid, they would have done it for us to. I wonder if this changed? My next, sad, concern is that many new devotees and some gurukuli's (who took initiation) do not accept, or some do not know, tho others have not been informed, that you are NOT suppose to have sex after marriage except to have a baby. Then once there is pregnancy, celibacy. One (adult) kid told me about this newly married young couple who were 'going at it,' and when I mentioned no sex, they thought I was nuts, and replied they are married! While this is not illicit sex, it still binds one to the material world and is not what Prabhupada wanted for those who choose to take initiation. Though I must add, many are not being informed that there should not be sex after marriage. Prabhupada said sex for procreation, not recreation. /images/graemlins/smile.gif But not to limit it to the youth. Most householders fall down regularly and hide it, even have made it part of their lifestyle rather than at least trying to fight the urge, or to sleep separate or other ways to provice facility to make it easier for celibacy. Even some temple devotees with big reputation as staunch, are doing like this. Not everyone of course, but in the early days devotees had such a taste for Krishna consciousness and WANTED to be celibate. Even if there was fall down it was not something made acceptable. Now it seems things have changed. But if we water down the process we need to accept we have watered down the results too.

If the 'temple' is proving them marriages, how can they be 'nondeovtees?' This would be my question. A nondevotee would have no interest in a Vedic wedding. Maybe you could clarify?

lol Yes, desperate measures for desperate times. That was a good story. I have a similar one, tho not quite as good. But when we lived in Dallas they were also being over-run by mice, also to the point where they would go onto the altar. My kid had a cat and one time during the day, my kid could not find the cat, went to the temple, and there it was! The reason? Someone brought it inside to get rid of the mice. ha So we were pleased our cat was engaged in devotional service. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

LOL I never would have guessed. ha Kittens? No thanks. My kid use to try to bring home every pet on the planet and my husband let it slide, so now that they're gorwn, well I've had my fill with pets. Oh yes, and we did the live trap and release them into the woods thing. But all their uncles and counsins were still at home. ha My kid would even take a mouse out of the cats mouth and run it to the fields! Thats determination. But next morning, another, and another, and another. I have found cats to be useful tho and needed when living in a house in the woods. I dont like living with them, but keeping them outside never really got rid of the mice like keeping a cat inside has. Mice gravitate toward warm places in the winter, and they can live inside walls, etc. I just figure its better than living with a cat then mouse urine and stool. Can't win. This material world is a miserable place. Gotta do our business and get out.

Yes Gauracandra, but what would one do about all the mice?

Yeah, I'm fragile too, sometimes. Generally due to all devotees can do, exactly as I described. Gotta laugh about it tho, in order to keep on keeping on. Valerian root is excellent, but tastes awful. Mixed with hops or passion flower, etc., its a nice formula, as long as Valerian root is the first ingredient listed. Or for mild depression, mixed with St. John's Wort. (I study herbs in my spare time, which lately I haven't had much of.)