Bhakta Devarsi

Because I'm not taking the time to read everything enough, multitasking while at work, which is irresponsible and not respectful of the subject at hand. I sincerely appologize.

Exactly, you nit pick at my oblique jab at the people who take spiritual discussions lightly and are thus making all sorts of offenses and taking truly "idiotic" positions, and fault find me on that, while I am admitting I am doing it.

But compared to the rest of the diversions and obfuscations and power trips which go on on such public forums and in topics like this, My point is that my statement was a regretably necessary technique, a means to a good end.

And you blow it up to be something you can't stand. Meanwhile indulging in your own nonsense and admitting it.

Sorry, maybe idiot is too strong a word. I am very passionate. Of course one's choice to focus on that and discount everything else being spoken is both of our losses, but how else to get people to realize?

And you were NOT one of the people who to my mind play the full on idiot role. But you sure seem to have your own difficulty hanging in here, so I wish you good fortune.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

Sorry Prabhu, it was Bhakta Devarsi, please accept my appologies.

For the record, my sideswipe was as follows.

"Let's just pretend for a moment that this discussion is not populated with a bunch of power mongering idiots, (which mostly it is not),"

And since power mongering is an idiotic thing to do, I thought I might trigger a thought in those who were introspective enough to possibly notice this and think "hey I don't want to be idiotic", and give up the idea of usurping power and just being in their own position.

of course Brajeshwara dasa was most sensitive to this comment and made this finding of fault known by his own subtle fault finding post where he later posted

Quote:

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Let's just pretend for a moment that this discussion is not populated with a bunch of power mongering idiots, (which mostly it is not),

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It is very hard to have a conversation with someone that may be calling you an idiot.

 

 

To which I replied,

Only you know for sure. LOL, but I do have another thing to say to you about this below.

 

 

And proceeded to indicate where he was doing some speculating within our discussion.

Next Brajeshware dasa brought up this problem he had with my original statement.

"And making blanket statements that some of the people in the discussion are idiots is offensive to me because we should try and see others as devotees. Not idiots. And it stifles the conversation and turns into false-ego bickering."

 

What had already begun to stifle the conversation is that some people refused to stick to the topic, and began all sorts of diversionary techniques including questioning of character, and skimming posts and reading only to garner ammuntition for objection instead of taking the whole into context.

That is offensive to discussion and debate at such a very profound and basic level. It is a technique used by someone wishing to hide a basic insecurity of philosophical foundation that they stand on thinking there is some power there. That is not conducive to anything but further power mongering. So I that I thought I would speak up about that tendency I saw a person or two exhibiting to see if I could flush them out, knowing they would probably use it as a lever to further cast doubt on the substance of what I was saying.

Multiple people can feel completely filled with righteous and creative power in the same discussion as long as they all know who they are.

Those who are only there for a little mental gymnastics stick out like a sore thumb when core truths are being examined intelligently, there is a venue for that, but this topic probably isn't it, considering MOST of the company here.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

Hare Krsna

In truth I really came here wondering if any of the seemingly apparent brahminical intellects are rid of smartism/impersonalism enough to even recognize a ksyatria, from a kingly type to an aspiring page, and also understand their particular symptoms as a Large subclass of the human race, understand their value and necessity for the Krsna Conscious Sankirtana Mission as a whole including the aspect of restoring DVD.

So far, I see some signs of life, but the vitals seem weak, though the spirit is willing.

So much talking on lofty subjects, but then to be so ill-informed, un-informed, and speculative as to the details of HOW DVD was to be implemented amongst us as per the painstakingly detailed

instructions of the most recent Mahabhagavat Shaktavesa Avatara to breeze through town.

Where is the merciful extension of brahminical council to the local Ksyatria, and the reciprocated mercy of such Ksyatria's grace in all its forms?

If one can't answer that question, with particulars, they have not even graduated from Brahmin Gurukula, and are at best a brahmacari practicing his scholarship and debating techniques, and at worst a pompous, pretentious pontificator living in one of Maya's many Ivory towers.

Such has been the symptom of so many in Iskcon, even before Srila Prabhupada left, and now such artificial Brahminism has become a twisted artform.

Pretty soon anyone living in a place like America, who is NOT off the material platform but THINKS they are will be begging someone like Caturbahu dasa and his merry men for shelter from the big bad athiestic Facist Social communists who are going to get their crack at all the fakers in the world, and all those who have refused to release their dependence on their non-vedic system of social deterioration and disease.

Any day now folks.

How will Krsna protect you if you refuse to protect the rest of the "lower" varnas by knowing who you are, who they are, and how to engage them immediately in the devotional service of the Lord in a way that you and they can proclaim with conviction "Here stands a Bhakta, engaged in mixed

but real devotion, may the Lord bless him or her with advancement."

Perhaps these questions are more important to be answering than how I or Caturbahu dasa are going to decide who is who, because frankly we already have but it is not for us to impose, just to inspire, amidst our faults and in our better moments, hopefully inspire others to see it for themselves and REALIZE who they are on the material platform.

For if we speak the truth as we occasionally "admit" to our faults and material propensities after so many years of discipleship, then we should take a step forward from there and understand that material postion fully as it relates to the Krsna Consciousness movement. Then will save us

from denial, overestimating ourselves, underestimating others, and keep us perfectly aligned with our true and current level of Krsna Consciousness as per the authority of the Mahabhagavat Acharya Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada in this purport

BG 3.35

Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly. However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master.

In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness, the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as aksatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply. For example, Visvamitra was originally a ksatriya, but later on he acted as a brahmana, whereas Parasurama was a brahmana, but later on he acted as a

ksatriya. Being transcendentally situated, they could do so; but as long as one is on the material platform, he must perform his duties according to the modes of material nature. At the same time, he must have a full sense of Krsna Consciousness.

 

All Glories to the Brahmanas in training.

Hare Krsna

What did Srila Swami Maharaj say would be compliance? If you want a system in place where someone gets a 'nametag' so all will know their varna and then assigned duties accordingly, please describe how that would work and who would determine the varna. That's all. Otherwise what is the point in discussing this further? All agree it would be a good thing just again HOW?

 

Dear Brajeshwara dasa,

Why do you continually ignore my answer to this question that I have repeated about 3 times for you? Are you to good for me to even acknowledge the points I made, even if you disagree at least if you have some valid position then maybe I could learn something, but I all hear are the sounds of silence, and then you asking the same exact question over and over again.

ys

BD

Thanks Bk Devarsi, well said. I was just ignoring him. I know his Guru's mind and you will be hard pressed to reach the Radha Kunda Babji crowd.

CB-R

Hare Krsna CB-R

I was starting to get that idea a while ago, it just took me a while to ground it down.

Jaya Prabhupada

BMD

Please share with us the plan of approach to implement this system you said he laid out. If it is that clear please do so. That he wanted it to manifest there is no doubt, but the mechanism is what is in question. How to do it? Did he say how to do it? Not your ideas of what here said, but actually him saying 'do this, do that, this is the way.' Who decides who is who?

 

Someone wrote a book I have not read, I do know many can interpret things many ways and I won't have faith in that unless I read it, even then with the guidance of a Vaisnava I trust. So please share with us not selective quotes on the subject but actual facts that he said to 'do like this'. I myself am agreeing that it should manifest and it is the will of Guru, that would be great help to us all, but HOW? That I admit my opinions are opinions instead of trying to put my words in other's mouths, especially an Acharya, I don't see as reason for critique by you, who are taking opportunities to say people are idiots etc. without aswering questions directly. It is clear you have contempt for other's opinions that don't perfectly match your own. I wonder what Srila Prabhupada would say.

 

I am not preaching here, I am asking the questions 'who will decide, what was Guru's plan' and not getting real answers because you have none.

Dear Brajeshwara dasa,

I am now certain you are just skimming my posts.

The book I referred to you was and still is mostly a compilation of Srila Prabhupada quotes from conversations, lectures and a few from his books.

And I specifically instructed to answer this type of inquiry from you previously, that The Gita and Bhagavatam are CHOCK full of general and direct instructions and details on DVD. So much so that just be reading and hearing, then observing yourself introspectively and the symptoms of others, we will all know what to do.

And that includes the person who after all that comes to the conclusion, "I like what I read but I am not sure who I am exactly or how to proceed."

That person would be the TYPE of Sudra who would need constant instruction and direction from higher varnas, and if truly sincere, humble, and thus submissive, will coincidently at that time find their good self amongst the company of devotees of higher varna who will see that sudra as someone who can help them make devotional advancement if they can engage them properly and will do so promptly.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

Dear Anadi,

Thank you so much for correcting my use of the prefix Sriman. If indeed you are correct. You gave no scriptural backing for what you said, but it may be true so I guess I will have to look it up myself. I like to learn new things.

And as for whatever else you may have wrote, I am sorry, but you immediately started to define Bhakti narrowly as Suddha Bhakti, and there again was immediately my proof that you have a smarta mentality, and you should just reread what I wrote to you again, and then go back to school, read the Bhagavad gita as it is, 1972 macmillan edition, with no rascal changes.

You simply need to get to the point where you can see that the person who responds in even the smallest way to a preaching Acarya and hears and chants abit, then goes back to their occupation in the modes is engaged in BHAKTI. Then maybe we could have a conversation in the future. Otherwise your mind is lost swimming in an ocean of intellectual concepts, while your heart seems blinded by smarta attitude.

This is especially telling when you say things like Srila Prabhupada was preaching against DVD when he first came to the west. That shows your lack of knowledge of his preaching and what he wrote. My god, he gave direct instructions in his Dehli Bhagavatam first canto from the early 60's that DVD was part of the Krsna Consciounsess movement.

But I know you will recover quickly.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

Originally Posted by anadi<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Bhakti is not related to any Institution.

Bhakti is the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee, and guru assist his disciple in making conscious that loving relation.

When an Institution came into being, that is not because of bhakti, but because of material managerial considerations, and politics will come into life.

 

Replay

Sriman Anandi, you seem to have a tendency to define Bhakti to suit the moment.

This is a delicate matter left to the liberated Acharya, for in this case you are pronouncing a SMARTA position which is roundly rejected by the Bona Fide Acharyas of the Gaudiya line.

Dear Bhakta Devarsi, dandavat pranam,

 

• Sriman and Prabhu should be used only in relation to the Bhagavan Tattva, not in realation to Jiva Tattva.
  
• Bhakti is always the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee. If you want I can add the quality of that relation, and as you well know this is a serving relation. …Why? …Because of love divine (serving because of love). So, as long as one had not come yet to the platform of love divine, how can one speak about bhakti? And yet we can speak about bhakti. … What kind of bhakti… Sadhana bhakti, as delineated in Bhakti Rasa-amrita Sindhu.
  
• The definition of bhakti is not a delicate matter left to the liberated Acharya. The definition of bhakti for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas has been clearly stated by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

anyabhilashita shunyam / jnana karmady anavritam

anukulyena krishnanu / shilanam bhaktir uttama

Uttama Bhakti – pure divine loving service consists of activities –shilanam which are favorable anukulyena – give pleasure in the highest degree to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

It must be devoid shunyam of material desires anyabhilash, knowledge of the Absolutness of the Lord jnana, and karma – activities according varna-ashram dharma.

 

 

And now comes SB Narayan M ... following "Prabhupada" and says that we have to follow (daivi) varna-ashram dharma, although in the beginning of his preaching in West, was against it and preached Shuddha Bhakti.

BD you seem to have focused only on half of what I said. I said one's respected siksa gutru could help one understand and see his psotion or that Supersoul may give the inteligence from within to show the bhakta how he could best work.

 

That is already known and acknowledged by everyone I think. You and Guest C seem to be advocating a third option which brajaswhara and others have been trying to get you to spell out but you DVD folks never respond to this simply question.

 

Brajeswhara has asked yet again and I echo that yet again. Other than by one's interaction with his siksa guru or from the Lord within just how is one to understand his varna?

 

Specifics please. Continuing to ignore this question is becoming rather telling.

You know old friend, for a person who has rarely in my memory consciously acknowledge ignorance on a point when corrected, your innuendo of rigidness and ignorance on my part is expected I suppose, but never welcome.

I already described your answer in detail if you look over my posts it will be clear as a sunny day in Hawaii.

And only because I repeat how my Siksa Guru, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada instructs me in this regard, thus there is no "other than". Plain and simple, light and sweet.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

Acharyas don't impose they order.

You follow or you dont.

All of Srila Prabhupada's direct and specific orders are available I already told you that. No need to speculate.

There already is Daivi Varnasrama. Guru has to show you how you fit in, because you have forgotton.

If you can read, this is how he can show you.

Thats all.

It is very hard to have a conversation with someone that may be calling you an idiot.

Only you know for sure. LOL, but I do have another thing to say to you about this below.

I think the fact no organized system has been imposed, from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada to present, should be a clue that this was not the way Guru intends it to be manifest. The 'natural' theory seems to be more inline and would justify why no other Gaudiya Math acharya has done so. Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada Himself could have laid out direct instructions how to do it but it seems no one has this available, so in its abscence it seems like speculation to say exactly what he intended.

It must be late at night, because now we are starting posts with the words "I think that ...." Ok, then one more for the speculators.

They never imposed anything. Of course they wouldn't want anything to manifest which was IMPOSED they aren't even capable of such a thing as maha siddhas.

But they plainly ordered everything I have posted as a quote. Whether this was a command to duty for any one person is between them and Srila Prabhupada. For some it is just dust in the wind, but I truly believe this is their loss, but to each their own. He plainly ordered to do it. If we were "tending" to do it so "naturally" then why see a deficit in us, and give instruction as remedy. Just think about what this implys please.

The line is crossed when someone preaches against the fact that this was an extensively thought out and documented order, and thus a desire, and that a person, a real live breathing loving humanly 2 armed formed person just like your own Guru Govinda was greatly desiring this to the point where he spent the last 3 years of his appearance here constantly propagandizing this agenda as you now well know. His emotion and his desire are plain, and how better to please the one you love than to execute on such?

And after participating in all these discussions you can say something like the next quote.

"Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada Himself could have laid out direct instructions how to do it but it seems no one has this available, so in its abscence it seems like speculation to say exactly what he intended."

It seems no one has this available? I gave you the source of a 400 page book with innumerable Prabhuada quotes on the subject, and told they were specific and detailed through conversations with the leading men.

How soon you forget. Please stop your contrarian preaching here because you are very misinformed on the subject as you may be beginning to realize.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

No, I don't see how I was awry, Prabhu. My flippantly-made point about renaming ISKCON has to do with *focus*. The focus is on serving Krishna via the Holy Name, Guru, and the Vaishnavas. It's about Krishna Consciousness.

 

I mean no offense, but your proposition that folks could be introduced to DVD *before* being introduced to Krishna is simply ludicrous.

 

From your own quotes of Srila Prabhupad, the recommended medicine is Krishna Nam, and, if the person is somewhat literate, reading Bhagavad Gita. That's where the whole journey starts.

 

For the typical sense-enjoyer who yet has no taste for Nama Sankirttan, how is a dry discussion of Varnashram going to be appealing?

 

Krishna is the all-attractive. Krishna is the harmonizing principle. Before any society can even begin to resemble DVD, there must be a lot of purification. Otherwise, folks artificially trying to adhere to DVD have the same chance of success as a neophyte Bhakta trying to impersonate a self-realized Acharya.

Flippant sometimes begets flippancy, but you decide to get rough on my gesture, OK so you are a bit of a ruffian, like to rough people up to get their attention? So do I .LOL

However, please remember you jumped in here saying.

"So, to say we need to artificially introduce DVD to further Bhakti is to have reversed priorities."

And here your prejudice regarding the position being expounded here in regards to whether or not it is the artificial imposition of anything upon anyone really has no grounds in anything I have written for I assure you I fight against this wherever it is myself all the time.

Thus your presumption is a sign of something artificial that I need to deal with, and somehow get around if I want you to actually hear what I say, and thats not easy because the human tendency to presume under prejudice is a mercurial and flexible talent which fluidly adjusts to prevent something from entering the consciousness which might possibly be healthy for it, MISTAKING it for an OFFENDER and thus activating the immune system and DEFENDING against it.

Let's just pretend for a moment that this discussion is not populated with a bunch of power mongering idiots, (which mostly it is not), and maybe we can see more clearly the connection between all the facts and evidence being posted, without fear of coersion, and see what fits.

For starters, you might want to be more broad minded, and thus specific in giving examples of what a "typical sense enjoyer" is, and furthermore how can you say that discussing Lord Krsna's very own Daivi Varnasrama system is DRY?

Anyway, please think about these things, I am past them already, and some of the insight and profound questions other people in this discussion are raising are inspiring me to end with you here.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

The main DVD players have no capacity for answering that question.

 

Perhaps one's siksa guru will point this out to the aspirant or from within the Lord may give the intelligence to see for themselves their own present position.

 

Factually if you take it from some ecclesiastical appointed arbirtrator you are accepting him as an ecclesastical siksa guru.

 

So after all the hubub it comes down to one seeing for himself where he fits in and acting accordingly.

 

Some things are beyond mass marketing.

Who Decides?

The is an answer to the both the quandry of "who decides", and the fact that Theist suggests that someone may see for them self .

So since until now, one's self has been in ignorance, and one's self does not know yet and still needs a WAY to BEGIN to see for themselves who they are in the connection to this topic.

This requires one to see for himself BOTH WHO HE IS, AND WHO EVERYONE ELSE IS in order to know where he fits in, and then act accordingly.

And since we are all declared less than Sudra by Srila Prabhupada (who first found "us") it was HIS DUTY to decide who was who. So he cunningly will achieve this end by dint of the fact that he gave us the instructions so we could figure this out amongst ourselves AND FOR OURSELVES afterwards in the following way...

First, carefull evaluation of his perspective on things regarding DVD and its necessity.

Second, observation of ourselves and others and thus classification for the purposes of determining "where we fit in".

Third, start enjoying the FRUITS, by slowly seeing how mostly we were already doing it, and even subtly cooperating already, it is just like in the earliest days where there was hardly a temple and Srila Prabhupada told us about all these temples that he could see, they were already there actually, but we still had to build them.

Read about it, and it will come.

Read about Daivi Varnasrama from Srila Prabhupada and Daivi Varnasrharma will come.

Read about it, follow it, realize it, and the fruits will come. That is the promise of the Acharya regarding his instructions on DVD. He explicitly states that its execution, no matter the varna, is not different than being Krsna Consciousness.

Ok, I guess I'll see you here and there.

All Glories to the most merciful Bhakta to the most fallen Bhaktas, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Hare Krsna

SB 9.10.51 Purport:

"Among the four yugas—Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali—the Kali-yuga is the worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is introduced, even in this age of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be invoked. The Hare Krsna movement, or Krsna consciousness movement, is meant for this purpose."

We see from the Bhagavad Gita Chapter 3 text 35 the Prescription from Srila Prabhupada is perfectly clear in regard to this purpose (among others) of his Krsna Consciousness Movement.

Our Sva Dharma or prescribed duties are presented in such a way to demonstrate the practicality of this, implying the direct and necessary inclusion of the roles of specific varnas, on either the material or the spiritual platform, and how even on the material platform acting in one's varna is done simultaneously with having a "full sense" of Krsna Consciousness.

Also, we have direct evidence of the fruits following this prescription will bear by the authoritative statements in this purport within the "ABC's of Spiritual life", the Bhagavad Gita.

Direct Evidence from the Bhagavad Gita 3.35 that Srila Prabhupada was INSTRUCTING anyone who would take DISCIPLINE from him that while knowing and engaging in one's VARNA ON THE MATERIAL PLATFORM, one may be and SHOULD DO SO WITH A FULL SENSE OF KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS.

Text 35

sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah

para-dharmat sv-anusthitat

sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah

para-dharmo bhayavahah

Audio

SYNONYMS

sreyan—far better; sva-dharmah—one's prescribed duties; vigunah—even faulty; para-dharmat—from duties mentioned for others; svanusthitat—than perfectly done; sva-dharme—in one's prescribed duties; nidhanam—destruction; sreyah—better; para-dharmah—duties prescribed for others; bhaya-avahah—dangerous.

TRANSLATION

It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though they may be faulty, than another's duties. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

PURPORT

One should therefore discharge his prescribed duties in full Krsna consciousness rather than those prescribed for others. Prescribed duties complement one's psychophysical condition, under the spell of the modes of material nature. Spiritual duties are as ordered by the spiritual master, for the transcendental service of Krsna. But both materially or spiritually, one should stick to his prescribed duties even up to death, rather than imitate another's prescribed duties. Duties on the spiritual platform and duties on the material platform may be different, but the principle of following the authorized direction is always good for the performer. When one is under the spell of the modes of material nature, one should follow the prescribed rules for particular situations and should not imitate others. For example, a brahmana, who is in the mode of goodness, is nonviolent, whereas a ksatriya, who is in the mode of passion, is allowed to be violent. As such, for a ksatriya it is better to be vanquished following the rules of violence than to imitate a brahmana who follows the principles of nonviolence. Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly. However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master. In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness, the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as a ksatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply. For example, Visvamitra was originally a ksatriya, but later on he acted as a brahmana, whereas Parasurama was a brahmana, but later on he acted as a ksatriya. Being transcendentally situated, they could do so; but as long as one is on the material platform, he must perform his duties according to the modes of material nature. At the same time, he must have a full sense of Krsna consciousness.

His Desire and the Necessity for countless Jiva souls is more obvious to me than ever how about you?

Right. So we should rename it the International Society for Varnashram Dharma, then.

 

Enough said, right?

 

I hope to be able to post a more detailed response after my staff meeting.

 

Hari!!!!!!

I said "enough said, right" as in this should be enough to help you pause and correct your previous direction which certainly was awry as you can see.

And ironically, your idea might have some merit for the time being until Iskcon can work out its problems and is not such an eyesore, I know tons of people who would be happy to be explained to reasonably how engaging in DVD would enhance their lives. Then when they are happy with it, we could introduce them to the Originator of the idea, and they would fall madly in love with such a Wonder Full Being.

Hari Hari!

{I am guilty of an exaggeration, I don't know tons, just a couple handfuls personally, but I can see there are many others beyond my vision. If I knew them I would just preach to them myself.}

1. Bhakti is not related to any Institution.

Bhakti is the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee, and guru assist his disciple in making conscious that loving relation.

When an Institution came into being, that is not because of bhakti, but because of material managerial considerations, and politics will come into life.

 

2. I will never change you by my posting, but I learn my self from your consideration points.

Sriman Anandi, you seem to have a tendency to define Bhakti to suit the moment. This is a delicate matter left to the liberated Acharya, for in this case you are pronouncing a SMARTA position which is roundly rejected by the Bona Fide Acharyas of the Gaudiya line.

You say Bhakti is not the cause of an institution coming into being. Yet the sentence previous you say that a Guru assists a disciple in becoming conscious of Bhakti or his loving relationship with the Lord.

The truth is that the Guru is an embodyment of Lord Krsna's own Bhakti for the Jiva, and the Guru assists the Jiva in BECOMING (A PROCESS OVER TIME) CONSCIOUS of Bhakti, then the first interaction is actually characterized by Bhakti, and the neophyte Jiva is considered a Bhakta, doing Bhakti Sadhana and Part of that assistance is quite obviously instructions on how to create and manage an institution to deal with those pesky material considerations you mention, which most Jiva's remained engaged with for quite some time while executing beginning devotional service.

So the DEVOTIONAL position, that of a Bhakta, is to see the institution as grounded in the Lord's devotion for the fallen, and part of his giant helping hand to help us peons manage our material consideration in a way conducive to advancement in Bhakti.

In the SMARTA position, noone can be approached for advancement, because the need to meet people where they are at is impossible, because the SMARTA's program denies material consideration except to condemn them. Noone can be lifted out by that technique.

So I figure a wise person like you can take your intellect now, and use it to see where people are at, and engage them in Bhakti from there, now. Right now. Not that tomorrow all will be in their siddha deha exibiting swarupa siddhi. Unless you want to be alone forever, bring people up gradually from where they are.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

I would take this one step further and say DVD is an *effect* of Bhakti. When we (or enough of us) become fixed on Krishna through Guru and Gauranga, Varnashram will happen spontaneously. After all, Varnashram Dharma is not a prescription for how things *ought* to be, it is a description of how things *are* in a balanced, God-conscious society.

 

So, to say we need to artificially introduce DVD to further Bhakti is to have reversed priorities.

Please accept my obeisances Prabhu,

Before you take that step further, please consider this.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada prescribed by direct order that his disciples divide themselves into identifiable categories of varna and ashrama and that was to be implemented in his entire society. As a matter of fact he more or less word for word stated exactly that, I don't have the conversation folio handy, but below I will show ample circumstancial evidence until you can look that quote up yourself on the net.

What exactly is artificial introduction?? Are you saying that in your mind people who follow instructions of an Acharya (not a spontaneous activity in the beginning I assure you) are doing the wrong thing? That the Acharya in question was not the genuine article, and thus artificial?

You must not have read much about how my Srila Prabhupada explained how introducing DVD would help us advance in our devotional service. He even went so far as to say the following (among dozens of similar quotes I don't have the time to look up)

SB 9.10.51

PURPORT: Among the four yugas—Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali—the Kali-yuga is the worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is introduced, even in this age of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be invoked. The Hare Krsna movement, or Krsna consciousness movement, is meant for this purpose.

SB 4.12.48 : The Krishna consciousness movement has been started especially to create qualified brähmaëas to broadcast spiritual knowledge all over the world, for thus people may become very happy.

Madhya 7.128 :

This is the sublime mission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. If one is a little literate and can read the Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men.

Madhya 8.5.58: The brahmanas are the intellectuals who can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are always engaged in the cultivation of knowledge. It does not matter whether one is born in India or outside India. Those who are naturally very heroic and who tend to rule over others are called ksatriyas. Those who tend to produce food by agricultural methods, protect cows and other animals and engage in trade are called vaisyas, or merchants. Those who are not sufficiently intelligent to be brahmanas, ksatriyas or vaisyas are required to serve a master and are called sudras. Thus everyone can engage in the service of the Lord and thus awaken his natural Krsna consciousness. If a society does not function according to such natural divisions, the social orders become degraded. The conclusion is that the scientific method of varnasrama-dharma should be adopted by society.

Enough said right?

ys

BD

I guess what I'm saying is that for a Jiva to even want to get out of Maya's grasp and serve is rare indeed, and that so many I know are actively preaching, chanting their rounds, doing pujari seva, choosing to move into the temple from their comfy grhasta parent's homes, going to college while enduring austerities no one in thier peer groups in the surrounding areas would ever accept, that impresses me. That some go out and party, I can't deny. But I still am amazed and impressed.

And when some quantity of these young people discover that they are inwardly not so cut out for strictly brahminical types of service, and there is no qualified Ksyatria there to wisely discern their true symptoms according to guna and karma and thus encouragingly organize them into types of service which more suit their tendencies....

This will mean that someone who thinks they are a brahmana or ksyatria is in charge, but has no sensitivity to this level of philosophy, and will at first cajole, and then try to coerce the young person to continue with their "austere" service. Then they will burn out, and bloop, and some will never want to hear Krsna's name again.

Get it?

Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna Prabhus

Sriman Anadi said,

So, according one’s shraddha, one can be interested in daivi varnashram-dharma – vi-karma (we don't do karma) mishra bhakti or in shuddha bhakti – pure bhakti and seek someone who can inspire us to dive into the sweet pastimes of divine love of the Lord and His eternal associates, the gopis.

 

Actually, according to one's shraddha, one follows the prescription of the most prominent Acharya who is the most recent and current link to the Gaudiya Sampradaya. Or does not.

If the prescription is, "In my assessment of your presently manifested symptoms, Y'all are situated in the modes of nature, bereft of anything but a minute sentiment for Krsna, which you just got when you met me, and therefore divide up and practice Daivi Varnashrama Dharma so you can gradually attain the goal of Shudda Bhakti.

Then that WOULD be the INTEREST of one with some shraddha in the Spiritual Master. And this choice to follow in this way is INCLUSIVE of the means to attain the goal of Shuddha Bhakti, which the aspirant must have some tiny glimpse of even to accept spiritual discipline amidst their TRUE AND DOMINANT FAITH, WHICH IS PLACED IN MAHA-MAYA FOR SENSE GRAD.

If someone were to decide their interest was in Shuddha Bhakti and that is it, and think they are prepared to just do that, that is called nonsense, and to leave the person who so kindly woke them up and search out someone who will just speak of Radha and Krsna's intimate pastimes without requiring any prerequisite is called Sahajaism, and is ultimately counterproductive.

The person who accepted their very lowly mixed devotional state in the lower modes, and accepted the current Acharya's instruction to participate in DVD and gradually advance, will be seen happily advancing, or perhaps already advanced while the Sahajya is makes little to no advancement, and in most cases encounters difficult falldowns which eat up great periods of time before returning to their last REAL status of devotion.

Meanwhile they could have been making steady advancement according to their honest position.

Sad but True, it could happen to you, becarefulwhoyafollow.

ys

BD

Shakti Fan wrote,

Varnasrama is not Swarupa siddha Bhakti.

Has anyone implied this?

Is it not obvious that Srila Prabhupada considered that DVD was a means to that end?

As in another portion of your post, you wrote...

Even though the behavior or practices described in this verse are not by nature purely constituted of bhakti, they are assistants to bhakti. Thus they are considered to be like associates or of bhakti.

All those who come ready to directly engage in Swarupa siddha Bhakti, would likely be most careful not to denigrate the assistants and associate processes to Bhakti, especially in the company of those who come to Bhakti mixed, but sincere, and can truly use the assistance.

Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna!

If one were to read even a 1/4 of what Srila Prabhupada had to say about the subject (and that is still alot of material) one would likely find as I have that his final assessment of us was that we were so Mixed in our devotion, that arranging ourselves according to DVD was to be the means by which we gradually became purified and thus actually attain the status of an unalloyed God Conscious servant.

He saw DVD as the vehicle by which his branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya would continue to offer Hari Nama Sankirtana regularly into the future, and by which each local temple franchise would be able to grow and expand into an independent community that could support its own Harinama and preaching activities, without relying on the financial support of fickle congregations who were mostly looking for a church to tithe to in order to smooth their guilt for being grossly material, and all the pandering and compromise that entails.

The energy spent on that could simply be utilized to engage any serious congregationalist in a Daivi Varnashrama System, which would take em where they were at, apply Yukta Vairagya, and gradually transform their activities into a local community based self sufficient model. From modern madness to a semblance of Vedic order.

This would allow the preachers to eventually be more uncompromising (true compassion), and bring everyone gradually to the mode of goodness and beyond, all the time being everyone having at least some rudimentary awareness that they are already Krsna Conscious to some degree and it would only get better from there.

This further removes any emphasis on the need to jockey for position to be the "leader" or "guru", because everyone is basically equal, if it is done in the right spirit.

That is how I see this unfolding according to what I have read from Srila Prabhupada, my own experience of seeing Varnasrama unfolding in my own life, and some reasonably educated intuition of how that extends into the future. But only by reading what the Acharya wrote has a low life like me been carried even to this Mixed devotional platform, it is his Transcendentally motivated spoken orders to learn this DVD that is actually the force which transforms me and allows me to speak of this.

All Glories to Sri Guru.

Vasudeva Datta syndrome maybe?

The funny thing is Theist, that if you knew CB, you would see that his actual mood and attitude in day to day life is exemplified by real spiritual compassion, and little of the material kind (as per Bhagavad Gita).

So if he says he feels like that, it is hardly imitation of such an exalted devotee like Vasudeva Datta, but more like following in the footsteps due to inspiration.

You just aren't used to meeting people who really feel like this, so I understand your poking.

Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna Braj Prabhu

The only other way is that an advanced devotee can automatically engage someone according to their varna and ashram. If a person is willing to accept their determination on the matter. I just sifted through my mental files, but forget exactly the source of this quote from Srila Prabhupada but he did say a Spiritual Master is privy to the facts of the guna and karma of anyone who he lays eyes on, he knows the symptoms perfectly.

So when you mentioned your last example,

When I lived at the temple there were definitely 'divisions of labor', this was all naturally sussed out or service was given depending on ability. There was no formal system where it was said 'you are a brahman' but it quickly worked itself out, some preached, some ran sankirtan, some dug ditches, etc. The most important thing was all were engaged in service.Sort of like how you mentioned that at the temple at your math, people seemed to somewhat

This would be divinely perfect if these divisions were made under the watchful awareness of an advanced devotee, and his authorities adhered to his counsel in dispensing the labor.

This would be anywhere from slightly imperfect to an unmitigated disaster in proportion to the ACTUAL understanding of a less than advanced devotee if they were the TOP Authority.

As we know, advanced devotees, ones who are FULLY conversant with the sastra, are a rare thing. Even pure devotees, kanistha or madhyama may find themselves in a position where they would need to lead a local area, so they could check in with their Acharya's teachings on the matter, and their connection with Caitya Guru in order to cover their angles in a less then perfect situation.

For as some of us know, nothing is worse than being told by someone less qualified than you that they are going to do what you should be doing, and that YOU will be doing something you will either struggle at, or does not take advantage of your talents which leaves a person feeling half engaged and uninspired.

Now that the 40 year wave of Puffed Up Zonal Acharya Madness is over, perhaps deliberations like this one on this forum will provide impetus for more reasonable and suitable engagements for us all, and consequently, a more potent sankirtana movement, more souls reached, and the Lord even more pleased with us.

Thanks for the company.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

Hare Krsna Prabhus

I believe that all a group of smart devotees need to do, is to read what Srila Prabhupada said about DVD from his Gita and Bhagavatam.

Then read all of the "purport to the purport" as Caturbahu Prabhu likes to say, that is, the various conversations on the subject.

This process itself is similar to the process of reading and rereading any transcendental subject matter. We think we are just reading, but simultaneously our lives are being arranged so that we can realize what we are reading, and in the case of instructions for sadhana, we get the opportunity to fit in and manifest according to our nature.

The best thing about Theist is that he won't be caught alive in a Smarta situation. He insists on an organic and factual recognition of people for who they are. If sincere devotees get trained up by reading Srila Prabhupada on DVD, they will automatically realize their current varna, ashram, and that of others. Then cooperation could ensue without false designations and condescension or power trips.

A real devotee of whatever Guna and Karma sees another devotee of "lower" varna as Lord Krsna's devotee coming to help him make advancement in devotional service and treats him or her like Cintamani Stone. Even though technically a QUALIFIED brahmana may be more advanced in knowledge of the science of Krsna at first than say a neophyte sudra, he knows a sudra can become just as qualified by Krsna's mercy, and be able to someday be "fully conversant in the Science of Krsna Consciousness" and become Spiritual Master.

There is a very relevant purport to this topic from the CC. Madhya 8.128

I will reproduce it at the bottom of this post. In it Srila Prabhupada puts emphasis that smarta is no good, and that anyone fully conversant with the science should be considered Guru and Spiritual master no matter what caste they are born in, and that even one displaying the qualities of a low varna can become conversant if they desire and complete the training "as a pure Vaisnava".

But he also, at the end of the purport, mentions that "This does not mean that people should take to His teachings and remain sudras or candalas"

The same goes for any varna which has a guna more favorable to spiritual advancement. Srila Prabhupada said in this lifetime we can change our Guna and Karma SB 5.1.14

So there is never any legitimate reason for condescension, but if a person is displaying lower varna consistently by life experience, they should not be under the illusion that they should artificially do the work of a higher varna if and when there is someone present in the community more materially qualified by guna and karma to do so.

The factors which make or break cooperation are humility and desire to be of service to a Mahabhagavat acharya. As long as people limit to their association to others with a similar heart and mind, everyone will be tolerant of minor discrepancies, and our advancement will be rapid.

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

ys

BD

Yes, what is the plan for implementing this? Did Srila Swami Maharaj outline one, and if not can ISKCON do so without guidance from the acharya?

Hare Krsna

There is a book which is a compilation called "Srila Prabhupada Speaking about Varnashrama".

It is available at the following link.

http://krishna.tv/srila-prabhupada-speaking-about-varnasrama-p-741.html

Below I have reproduced the Table of contents from the book.

It is a compilation of various morning walks, room conversations, and lectures. The contents of the book are below. I have not read the book, but many of the conversations are familiar to me. I found so many direct instructions regarding DVD in his purports in the Gita and Bhagavatam especially that I searched and found much of it.

That is a primer.

The rest is observing where we are really at, (chuckle), and then observing yukta-vairagya in whatever varna we are most realistically inclined to according to our successful experiences in this life, or even latent abilities, this all needs to be revealed organically as we study Srila Prabhupada's explicit instructions for how His Disciples are to organize themselves according to DVD, which as you will see, if you read, was THE central theme of his instructional preaching to the leaders of his society from 74-77.

Varnasrama-dharma

1. Why is Varnasrama Important?

2. Mission of the Krsna consciousness Movement: to Create Varnasrama Colleges and

to Re-Esthablish Varnasrama

3. Varnasrama Is Possible and it Must be Possible

4. Instructions of the Previous Acaryas

5. Monteal, July 16, 1968—Room Conversation

6. New Vrindaban, June 9, 1969: Meeting with Devotees

7. Moscow, June 22, 1971: Conversation with Professor Kotovsky: Spiritual

Communism

8. London, November 25, 1973: Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.10.4

9. Los Angeles, December 31, 1973: Morning Walk

10. Vrndavana, March 12, 1974: Varnasrama Walk

11. Vrndavana, March 14, 1974: Varnasrama Walk

12. Vrndavana, March 14, 1974: Morning Walk

13. Vrndavana, March 15, 1974: Varnasrama Walk

14. Hyderabad, April 20, 1974: Morning Walk

15. Rome, May 25, 1974: Morning Walk at Villa Borghese

16. Rome, May 27, 1974: Morning Walk

17. Rome, May 28, 1974: Morning Walk

18. Geneva, June 6, 1974: Bhagavad-gita 13.35

19. Vrndavana, April 20, 1975: Conversation with Governor

20. New Orleans, August 1, 1975: Walk Around New Talavanva Farm

21. New Orleans, August 1, 1975: Room Conversation with Devotees New Talavanva

Farm

22. Mauritius, October 2, 1975: Morning Walk

23. Mauritius, October 3, 1975: Morning Walk

24. Mauritius, October 5, 1975: Room Conversation

2

25. Johannesburg, October 16, 1975: Morning Walk

26. Mayapura, March 1976: Declaring Our Dependence on God

27. New Vrindaban, June 22, 1976: Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden

28. New Vrindaban, June 24, 1976: Room Conversation

29. New Vrindaban, June 26, 1976: Bhagavad-gita Chapter 16

30. Washington, D.C., July 8, 1976: Evening Darsana

31. New York, July 14, 1976: Interview with Newsday Newspaper

32. Philadelphia, July 15, 1976: Evening Lecture at Gita-Nagari Farm

33. Paris, August 2, 1976: Room Conversation at New Mayapura Farm

34. Paris, August 3, 1976: Room Conversation at New Mayapura Farm

35. Paris, August 3, 1976: Room Conversation

36. Paris, August 3, 1976: Room Conversation with French Commander

37. Hyderabad, August 22, 1976: Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra

Pradesh

38. Hyderabad, August 22, 1976: Room Conversation with Endowments

Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh

39. Chandigarh, October 16, 1976: Press Interview

40. India, January 11, 1977: Conversation on Train to Allahabad

41. Bhuvanesvara, January 21, 1977: Room Conversation

42. Mayapura, February 14, 1977: Conversation Varnasrama System Must be

Introduced

43. Mayapura, February 15, 1977: Evening Darsana

44. Vrndavana, October 6, 1977: Room Conversation

45. Vrndavana, October 8, 1977: Room Conversation at Krsna Balarama Temple

46. Vrndavana, October 18, 1977: Room Conversation

Jaya Prabhupada

ys

BD

Speak for yourself!!!!

 

 

Never met a sahajiya that I didn't like.

 

 

 

I don't believe in in Jesus, I just believe in me, Yoko and me, and that's reality.

 

 

I'm still veg so I don't eat Tripe nor would I even feed it to my dog. And although I don't dislike NM, I don't quote him, so there!!!

I love you too Beggar. I just wish you had a better sense of humor. It takes some time. Just like being able to take constant dictation from Sri Paramatma. Well, maybe not, some people become funny before that happens.

Hare Krsna