Bhakta Devarsi

Understand Beggar.

But there was another reaction of this preaching too. Thus was reared a whole race of bhaktas who take pride in putting down Lord Shiva, advaita, yoga and just about everything else, quoting SP from some juncture. I have even found SP meaning something different in essence than was was preached and told me by the followers.

Srila Prabhupada was well aware of the casualty ratio. In never once offending Lord Siva, Srila Prabhupada left a wake of those who would.

And also on the fringes of that wake, a few who benefitted by giving up all else, including Siva for the moment, and focusing on the basic ABC's Srila Prabhupada was trying to teach about Krishna Bhakti.

They are the ones today who will be granted the ability to understand Lord Siva's nectarean relationship with Krsna's Bhaktas while no longer in a risky position of being diverted into Worship of Lord Shiva in an impersonal demigod mood. And will be glorifying him in connection with Sri Krsna's lila, and its all good then.

Hare Krsna

Quotes from the Conversation books are on the way.

 

He speaks about the lifting of various restrictions on Sudras and Ksyatrias, these come to mind immediately.

 

Also speaking of tightening the restrictions for who is to receive 2nd initiation. Which leads to metion of Sudras still getting 2nd initiation and being thus Recognized as Vaisnava, not that they will be qualified as Brahmana, "but as good as brahmana".

 

You know, technical but important distinctions like this have to be pointed out sometimes when painting the picture of the society you are already building right under everyone's noses.

 

Hare Krsna

What he said. But in addition, I'd like to note it may take a while, I don't have the Conv. books with me, but they are marked, just one town over also. But it is all there, or I wouldn't make such a claim.

Actually surprised a bunch of well read Brahmins would not already have read this while scouring the 32 conversation books.

They are the Purport to the Purport, to quote Caturbahu das. Love that quote.

Actually, I could paraphrase from memory each new development in Srila Prabhupada's vision for the adjustment of the regs by varna and ashram.

But I want to give you the real deal.

If for some reason my ability to post these rare jewels is hindered, I don't know why it would,, but anyway, you can use a vedabase folio search if you have the conv. on your folio.

Search for keywords (sudra meat puja kali durga ksyatria break alcohol intoxicant month offer)

also, "regulative principles of sudra" or "of (a) sudra"

"It's just that some folks use the term to prove that they are loyal to Prabhupada and others are not."

Where there is a neophyte tendency, there will be some sentimental sectarianism. This is to be expected, and we need to focus on what is positive about what they are experiencing, and try to build on that.

And if we see someone being so fanatic, we should mention it to them for their own good. Once. If they don't accept, they don't want to hear it from us, we are rejected as teacher, too bad, they like the mud.

Of course, why not just fault find some honest neophyte disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have been through hell, have pulled their sorry victimized selves up from the curb, and are following Srila Prabhupada's instructions the best they can. Banding together and feeling the unity of camraderie by being able to associate themselves under one heading honoring "their Prabhupada".

Anyone who can't walk a mile in a less intellectually gifted/ but still devotional person's shoes ought not to criticise so easily, especially in this case where it is the actual criticism of Vaisnavas.

On such a small thing.

Nuttin better to do.

Sheesh.

All glories to the Prabhupadanugas. Whoever they are.

So what are these mind sets? Who is Prabhupadanuga and who isn't?

The term Prabhupadanuga came about in order for his disciples to designate who "Follows" Srila Prabhupada, as opposed to one who does not follow, or one who claims to but who stays loyal to Iskcon GBC dictates, and often they are considered "not a follower". For a Prabhupadanuga would never neglect an order of Srila Prabhupada's, change the SUBSTANCE, of his books, etc.

So in this light, the quote posted by Shakti Fan

"The term 'Prabhupadanuga' is a wrong idea. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are both followers of Srila Rupa Gosvami, and therefore they are rupanuga. Following them, we are all rupanuga."

shows that Sri Narayana Maharaja was just spliting hairs for some reason.

For the real SUBSTANCE, is that they follow their Prabhupada. And thus are Prabhupadanuga and Rupanuga both.

If he had argued that the nomenclature used was confusing and improper, I might agree. For everyone feels their Guru is Prabhupada.

So Bhaktivedantanuga maybe. I have heard people refer to his disciples as "Bhaktivedantas" also.

But the SPIRIT OR SUBSTANCE is what is most important, semantics aside.

You have a zoo at your temple? Wow! I hope you have a swell time with your kid.

That is the irony of Kali Yuga, this modern time, and the Sankirtana movement.

There is not much difference between the zookeepers and the animals.

This is why other than a brahmana, noone but a Ksyatria can understand the spirit, or the faults, of a Ksyatria.

We need to remember that although we are all to be considered less than sudra at first, Srila Prabhupada did say that only 80% are sinful in this modern time of Kali yuga.

Hare Krsna

Of course Srila Prabhupada says this.

3. "We Gaudiya Vaisnavas are known as Rupanuga. Rupanuga means the followers of Rupa Gosvami. Why should we become followers of Rupa Gosvami? Because sri-caitanya-mano 'bhistam sthapitam yena bhu-tale. He wanted to establish the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2, Hyderabad, April 13, 1975)

4. Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami are the most exalted servitors of Srimati Radharani and Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who adhere to their service are known as rupanuga devotees. (Mad.8.246 Purp.)

So we always need to look at the general and specific of any label.

The point for a NEW ASPIRANT is that without becoming a follower of the most recent acharya, Srila Prabhupada, one cannot be considered a follow of a past acharya in his line, Srila Rupa Goswami.

Not the other way around. But that is what lashing out in anger does, it blinds us from these simple truths. (Still happens to me once or twice a day, GRRR).

Hare Krsna

Why not let him weigh in then?

Namah Om Visnu Padaya, Krsna Preshtaya Bhutale.

Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja please be our guide.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: He was so simple; so great and so simple at the same time. Anyhow, Mahaprabhu, our Gurudeva has done through him a tremendous inconceivable thing. Even one Maharaj, who could not tolerate all these things, because he was first in charge to go to the West, and could not get the desired success, but the other day, when coming from Mayapura, that Maharaj said, “It is achintya: inconceivable. He did not want to give recognition, but from his mouth, the word came out. That what Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj did, that is achintya: it is inconceivable. So, it is divine. It is inconceivable what he has done, what Nityananda Prabhu, what Baladeva has done through him, that is inconceivable. Devotee: Is it possible to have two rasas in the spiritual world?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: It is not seen generally. The permission is possible. In the first stage, it may not be detected and this is a great problem to us, and a great guidance to us. Anyhow, we have come to a group which is exclusively the group of madhurya rasa. The guru-parampara you see, not of vatsalya rasa, but to madhurya rasa. Or the mantram, leading to madhurya rasa. Madhurya rasa is all-accommodating rasa, and that was mainly given by Mahaprabhu, and also Rupa, so Mahaprabhu, and also Rupanuga Sampradaya had the mantram, what we get, all rasa combined, and to help that rasa, the service of that rasa, other paraphernalia has been created.

Adi rasa, and mukhya rasa. Two paricaya: denominations of the work of rasa. They are identical. Adirasa means that is the most original rasa – madhurya arasa. And mukhya rasa, the principle rasa is madhurya rasa. And the zenith of all rasa is found there. Our guru parampara is all in all madhurya rasa, and the mantras that are given to us are all in madhurya rasa, so that is the real work. Anarpita ciram cirat karunaya vartina kalau … Mahaprabhu came to give what was not previously given. That Radha Govinda, they came to jointly give the type of divine love to the public. “If you have such a qualification you can come up to this, the highest quarter.” That was the necessity of Sri Guaranga, to distribute that. All others are subservient, helping that rasa of Krsna. So, in our childhood, when not sufficiently developed, we may run here and there, but ultimately, we shall mostly go there.

Devotee: Different individuals will have their respective rasas, but the original mood, the objective, is to enhance the madhurya rasa, support the madhurya rasa. Say somebody is in sakhya rasa, but he is in Mahaprabhu’s movement, he is trying all the time ….

Srila Sridhar Maharja: That is also an instance. Not only that, but greater than that. Mahaprabhu tried to convert Murari Gupta, but He could not. Then he left. His strong inclination was towards Ramachandra. But still, Murari Gupta had some respect for this. Then, also, perhaps Rupa Goswami and Sanatana tried their best to take the father of Jiva Goswami, Anupama – he was a devotee of Ramachandra – to take him to krsna-lila, but they also failed. So, they tried, and that has got some value, even by Mahaprabhu and Sanatana, that is not a chance coincidence or a flickering or false attempt. So it is possible, and at the same time, there is such a strong and innate nature, that cannot be converted. That faith, that thing, is in the jiva. Both sides have been pleaded here.

Devotee: Maharaj, it has been clear now, in a way, that Prabhupad (Srila Bhaktivedana Swami Maharaj) was in the sakhya rasa?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: At least temporarily he has showed like that. What he has expressed there in that journey there, it is almost clear that he liked that sort of lila best, but it may be, it might have been suppressed purposely; it also cannot be denied, maybe. That is one thing. There may be such a possibility, and he has given, he has said that Radharani was his gurudeva. His gurudeva was Radharani, but he himself was thinking that perhaps madhurya rasa should not be distributed in the first instalment. That might have been his view.

Because his preaching was mostly helped by Nityanananda Prabhu, Baladeva, so influenced by their tendency, their mood, he might have for the time being had that footing. And another thing: there is another sign that he showed affinity for sakhya rasa. In Vrndavana, he has installed Baladeva, Krsna Balarama, and Nitai Gaura. Sakhya rasa preference. That also may be with the previous idea: that generally, by the influence of Nityananda, Nityananda and Baladeva has helped me to preach the lila of Krsna in such a broad way, so in gratitude, he might have place that vigraha.

But our Guru Maharaj did not place, only in Panca Tattva and other places, otherwise, where the pure madhurya rasa, Mahaprabhu, Radha-Govinda and Mahaprabhu, everywhere: He installed Mahaprabhu, both combined and Radha Govinda, separate. Radha krsna pranaya vikrtir hladini saktir asmad. But Guru Maharaj, through preached exclusively this madhurya rasa, but great precausion. What is not that thing, he perhaps used ninety percent of his energy to preach that “This is not madhurya rasa.” To clear away the negative side, he had to spare in his words, “Gallons of blood” to be spared to teach that this is not madhurya rasa.

Nicely put Mahak.

This is why it was important to me to try and discover just actually what were Srila Prabhhupada's on what type of rules and regs would be suitable for different people, since the goal was always to assist someone in being able to chant more offenselessly, and this was obviously tied in to advancement through Guna at first for most conditioned souls.

It seemed to me that AFTER he left, so did alot of the mercy, as some narrowminded disciples of his were actually offering a limited opportunity, not having assimilated all of Srila Prabhupada's understandings of what qualified a person as being a follower in the broadminded way such an acharya can see, and which I see burgeoning amongst some of the minds of more liberal and independent types who gravitate to forums like this.

Hare Krsna

From my observations I see how Srila Prabhupada displayed such a total selflessness, that he was able to be overshadowed by just about any mood or potency necessary to display for each variety of his mission on this planet. The way his humility, grace, charm and power all stood tall amongst all Vaisnava's on the planet.

As if to demonstrate figuratively, as a glimpse or teaser for those with the eyes to see, how exalted beyond all exaltation the position of a Manjari is, the summum bonnum which contains within it the best of all Moods and Bhavas of all Rasas, and thus the profound depth of the treasure Srila Prabhupada was distributing on behalf of his most worshippable and most compassionate Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

These regulative principles were not whimsically passed out by His Divine Grace. They are essential for his disciples. If you are breaking these principles that is your business (as it is mine) But we forfeit the right to call ourselves disciples of Srila Prabhupada by doing so. All his formally initiated disciples VOWED to him to keep these four while at the same time cultivating direct devotional practices like chanting and serving. This should not be taken lightly.

 

If you would look at the conversation books, especially in the 76-77 range, you would find where Srila Prabhupada made slight adjustments to the regulative principles according to varna. He spoke these conversations to his most senior men so they would develop a broad mind about the actual capacities of people who were TRULY Ksyatria Vaisya or Sudra in their Guna and Karma, and what they could realistially be expected to do over the long haul and still remain a servant of the Sankirtana movement under the auspices of his Iskcon Society, including its Government and rules.

So when you then say,

We must remeber however that that one need not follow these 4 as a prerequist to chanting Hare Krsna. There are no purificatory processes mandated before one can take up the name of Lord. If we want to be the disciple of a particular person like Srila Prabhupada then that is a different matter but we can be devotees (devotees lite) just no disciples of....

This is not quite proper with the new light shed on the situation. As long as one maintains the regulative principles of his varna, and remains in his proper ashram until it has its spiritual effect, they will get the perfection, so that means they are still under discipline, and thus a disciple.

So the sudra eats meat once a month if they must. No disqualification. As long as it is done exactly as the Acharya authorizes.

Of course some people at the time were too busy using the 4 regs to try to force others to a brahminical standard, while Srila Prabhupada was Screaming at them, "why force?they can stay sudra, they get the perfection" why force, "what don't you understand?" (to Brahmananda)

So they were not interested in incorporating all of the subtle changes that Srila Prabhupada recommended over the years. But I am.

Hare Krsna

My understanding is the regulative principals are like training wheels, as well as the number of rounds to be chanted. They are necessary in that they guide you in the proper behavior and keep you from falling. When you actually learn to ride the bike they can be discarded. But then you are riding the bike correctly and not falling down.

 

I guess what I'm saying is you need them until you become Krishna Conscious, and when you are you won't do those activities anyway. So no need for training wheels. A pure devotee isn't thinking, 'gee, it would be nice to eat a cow but I have to stick to the four regulative principals. How about a beer instead? Maybe I can get one at the casino, there are lots of pretty girls there.' Their activity isn't based on following the rules and regs but naturally do anyhow without thought of diverging.

Brajeshwara Prabhu,

your training wheel analogy is useful, but the following quote is insufficient.

I guess what I'm saying is you need them until you become Krishna Conscious, and when you are you won't do those activities anyway. So no need for training wheels

Those activities are Indeed continued. In the nectar of devotion chapter 2, Srila Prabhupada explains it like this.

Now this sadhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of sadhana-bhakti is called raganuga. Raganuga refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer aratrika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers aratrika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sadhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.

.

But the dogs of the dogs are really dogs of Srila Rupa Goswami. So to really be Prabhupada's dog one must become a Rupanuga. If your clueless on the subject then try to get some help. Not from someone who just intellectually knows the subject but rather one who has dived deep into it's essence.

You know Beggar, you and CB probably have more in common in real life then you imagine. That is why you like to go jab for jab, but the important thing is not to forget to honor where you connect.

If one is Prabhupada's dog, you can bet your farm on the fact that is qualification enough to be considered a potential Rupanuga. One must be a Prabhupadanuga before a Rupanuga. Here allow, a devotee 100 times more knowledgable than both of us explain this to you.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Naryana Maharaj

http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0411/WD05-8752.html

There is a difference between rupanuga [*Endnote 1] and raganuga [*Endnote 2]. Those who are in this world and serve Sri Sri Radha-Krsna on the path of raga (loving attachment), following in the footsteps of the ragatmika-bhaktas who are described by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and Sri Ujjvala-nilamani, all are raganuga.

 

This applies to those devotees who have some greed for vraja-bhakti and are actually following the process to attain it. Still, it may be that they are not rupanuga, but raganuga. Sri Jayadeva Gosvami was not rupanuga, but raganuga. Sri Bilvamangala Thakura was truly raganuga, but not rupanuga. Sri Svarupa Damodara and Sri Raya Ramananda were not rupanuga, although they were in the intimate association of Srila Rupa Gosvami. They are Lalita devi and Visakha devi themselves, so they are in a different category of eternal associates of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. They are not rupanuga.

 

"Those who follow Srila Rupa Gosvami - Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and are under the guidance of the cowherd friends of Krsna (sakhas), like Subala, Sridama and all others, and who want to serve Lord Krsna like the sakhas will not be called rupanuga. They will be called raganuga.

 

Lalita and Visakha and Yasoda-maiya are neither raganuga nor rupanuga. They are not anuga, followers. Those who are siddha, perfect, liberated associates, and are serving Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana are called ragatmika [*Endnote 3]. Those who want to serve Lord Krsna like them are called sadhakas (practitioners). Thus following raga-marga (the path of raga) they are raganuga. If one follows this path, inwardly mediating, How can I serve Lord Krsna like Mother Yasoda or Nanda Baba? He will be called raganuga, not rupanuga. Srila Rupa Gosvami has explained the glory of all these relationships in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Still, they will not be called rupanuga.

 

Those who are truly raganuga and follow the manner and mood in which Sri Rupa Manjari serves Radha and Krsna? Those who, in their constitutional form, are in the same mood as Sri Rupa Manjari, and who are in the same mood and perform the same devotional activities as Srila Rupa Gosvami at the time of practice? Only they are called rupanuga.

 

 

First we become anuga of Srila Prabhupada (ACBSP), or our chosen Gurudev.

If he is actually a Rupanuga, then we may get to that point too if we follow his instructions.

Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna Bk Devarsi

 

This goes for women in those varnas too, they will do as there husbands. All women are to be married. Even if a co-wife. Giving birth is also synonymous with marrage. Then the son/daughter will follow the same life style.

 

All dedicated and inter laced with Bhakti-yoga activities.

 

Seems to me that Srila Prabhupada said there is no perfect love in the material world. But the love of the mother for her son is as close as it gets.

 

So both female and male get that chance to have a glimpse of perfect love, no dicrimination by sex. But marriage and procreation must be there.

 

Also sudra men will marry earlier than other varnas. By 18. whereas the three higher will/should wait until more mature, in 20's.

 

All women varnas marry by 18. No earlier than 16 I would suggest. Marriage meaning cohabitation. Betrothal/arrangement/engagement could/should be as early as pubery for female.

 

Cmments?

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Hare Krsna Prabhu

This is very detailed information. Sounds about right from my intuition of a Vedic society regulated by goodness.

Is this info from the Books, or can we only find this from his Conversations and or Lectures?

BG: 18.10

It is said in Bhagavad-gita that one can never give up work at any time. Therefore he who works for Krsna and does not enjoy the fruitive results, who offers everything to Krsna, is actually a renouncer. There are many members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness who work very hard in their office or in the factory or some other place, and whatever they earn they give to the Society. Such highly elevated souls are actually sannyasis and are situated in the renounced order of life. It is clearly outlined here how to renounce the fruits of work and for what purpose fruits should be renounced.

less Ashrams for lower Varnas?

Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, 10-21-74, Mayapur:

Ata saba hari ara varnasrama-dharma, niskincana haya laya krsnaika sarana.(?) This is the... Varnasrama-dharma, that is material. VARNASRAMA IS PLANNED FOR MATERIAL LIFE IN A SYSTEMATIC WAY SO THAT, IN DUE COURSE OF TIME, ONE MAY GIVE UP THE FAMILY RELATIONSHIP AND TAKE SANNYASA AND COMPLETELY DEVOTE FOR KRSNA'S SERVICE. THIS IS THE PLAN OF VARNASRAMA-DHARMA. Varnasrama-dharma is not meant for planning something, and you remain in the family. No. The Varnasrama... Varna means brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah. Guna, not everyone is qualified in the same way. Therefore you... The acarya will pick up that "They are meant for becoming brahmanas. They are meant for ksatriyas." Or for coming from ksatriya family, or the brahmana family... So first of all, these varnas, then asrama. THE BRAHMANA, ONE WHO IS QUALIFIED AS A BRAHMANA, HE HAS TO OBSERVE THE FOUR ASRAMAS, A BRAHMANA: THE BRAHMACARI-ASRAMA, THE GRHASTHA-ASRAMA, THE VANAPRASTHA-ASRAMA AND SANNYASA-ASRAMA. THE KSATRIYA, THEY'LL HAVE TO OBSERVE THREE ASRAMAS: BRAHMACARI, GRHASTHA AND VANAPRASTHA. AND THE VAISYAS, TWO ASRAMAS: BRAHMACARI AND GRHASTHA. AND SUDRA, ONLY ONE ASRAMA, ONLY GRHASTHA. A SUDRA IS NEVER OFFERED SANNYASA. A... ONLY THE BRAHMANA IS OFFERED.

Of course Srila Prabhupada also wrote,

BG: 18.10 - It is said in Bhagavad-gita that one can never give up work at any time. Therefore he who works for Krsna and does not enjoy the fruitive results, who offers everything to Krsna, is actually a renouncer. There are many members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness who work very hard in their office or in the factory or some other place, and whatever they earn they give to the Society. Such highly elevated souls are actually sannyasis and are situated in the renounced order of life. It is clearly outlined here how to renounce the fruits of work and for what purpose fruits should be renounced.

Hare Krsna Anadi

 

 

Srila Prabhupada told us(ISKCON) to take up this DVD, you do not have to do nor agree. I do. And others on this form too. THAT IS ALL. Order is given.

 

You are interjecting in a family discusion and not minding your manners. Babaji's will love your arguements. We care not, we are for Prabhupada. And He says to do.

 

Hare Krsna Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Anadi wrote

When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks o bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, not aropa siddha bhakti, or sanga siddha bhakti.<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>

 

 

This is the most absurd thing I ever heard.

Those other forms of mixed bhakti would not even have existence, name and form without a Gaudiya Vaisnava who defined them, aka spoke of them.

Always is a big word and certainly does not apply. Except for people who want to believe that they are the only ones who have "Real" Bhakti, and everyone else falls short.

I actually feel really bad for you but that is my problem, you obviously have no feeling for anyone but yourself, so please accept my obeisances from a distance, and just leave me alone until you can recognize the existence of that other Bhaktas exist besides those enjoying unalloyed Krishna prema.

For your denial of them as being Bhakti is not merciful, and therefore what kind of Bhakti are you practicing. Get it? I can only pray you might some day.

ys

BD

Excellent conversation.

It all seemed straightforward and clear to me.

I especially note at the very end where Srila Prabhupada says.

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

Especially note the phrase "therefore falling down". He uses this to describe what is happening as a result of what he indicates in the statement just prior...that we were trying the impossible...

to bring him IMMEDIATELY to the platform of brahmana OR Vaisnava.

So the SOLUTION?

A SYSTEM.

Therefore system MUST BE.

And for any detractors that believe a system will somehow mundanely taint and thus prevent a person dominated by tamo guna from being engaged and steadily advancing in devotional service he ends saying.

"But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava."

And this steals the show.

Even if he remains a sudra. So why would someone remain a sudra? If they are a Vaisnava, why not display the modes of goodness all throughout the day? Some may ask. But that would show lack of understanding of the deep relation of being a sudra to the mode of ignorance. But even so, a sudra is qualified to be a Vaisnava if he cooperates.

This does not contradict his original chastisement not to bring the person up to Vaisnava immediately, because he mentioned the words brahmana or Vaisnava in that regard, indicating that Generally, a neophyte Vaisnava who actually becomes qualified as a Brahmana would generally be considered a more advanced Vaisnava than a Sudra who "remains" a sudra even after years of exposure and opportunites to act in managerial roles, or more priestly functions. Remembering that advanced devotees are considered to be "fully conversant" in the scriptures and the science of Krsna Consciousness.

So DVD boils down to this. Ok, we are neophytes and solid at that, but now the fire of cooperation with high ideals and flawed personalities, and that being the only way to make real advancement from here, leaving the sahajya behind, I hold Madhyama adhikari above my head the way Srila Sridhara Maharaja holds Vraja Dhama above his.

All Glories to Vaisnava Sanga

I didn't say it did, it was just the spark for the question of where women fit into the varna system, since they are grouped with sudras in the purport.

Yeah, I know, it said it after reading what Caturbahu dasa posted after reading it. After he said..

"This is not how DAIVI varnasrama-dharma will work for vaisnava."

And then went on to ammend that a bit saying.

"Though to just arbitrarally through out, we also can not do. So in this case i would say that the purport is applied multi level. Some varna at times, next time no varna."

So that made me read that purport more closely, and I came up with what I did, for the sake of discussing your original question, curve ball or not, I thought I would just play along and consider what was coming down the pike.

Of course you posted that purport after Caturbahu dasa answered your fourfould question posed like this.

1. Are they in the four varnas, or outside them?

2. If outside, why?

3. What responsibilities do they have?

4. What is the difference from a man's roles?

And his answer was.

First woman have varna just like men. How else will we be able to marry a woman of like mind? And Prabhupada calls a mixed marriage such, if husband and wife are of different varna. Not good at all. The best is same varna, next down is if the husband is higher varna, then tragedy is if woman is higher varna.

 

Within varna sexes will have a little differing roles. Ksatriya women would learn as the men, but in private. In other words she would know martial arts but learn this at home or similar venue. More of this is in the Mahabharta.

 

She would never take the throne under any circumstance....

 

So in relation to where the conversation was most previously coming from, it seemed CB saw that purport as possibly contradicting his position, but then got real flexible and saw the acintya there.

I just expounded a bit on what he already saw, and thought that in our case he is right that all get the opportunity, but we need to be realistic about where we are materially in order to make the most rapid spiritual advancement in a Personalistic community, and Queen Kunti devi's example is exemplar in this regard.

I am noticing just now, how deep that purport is, like a multifaceted jewel cut so nicely, you can enjoy it from any angle, and there is even activity deep in its center.

Wow, Hare Krsna

BD

http://www.vedabase.net/tqk/5/en1

 

Here is a mention of women and sudras from Srila Swami Maharaja's purports in Srimad Bhagavatam, probably where I last read it. Just for reference:

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Queen Kunti

Here are some of the specific symbolical marks on the spiritual body of the Personality of Godhead which distinguishes His body from the bodies of all others. They are all special features of the body of the Lord. The Lord may appear as one of us, but He is always distinct by His specific bodily features. Srimati Kunti claims herself unfit to see the Lord because of her being a woman. This is claimed because women, sudras (the laborer class), and the dvija-bandhus, or the wretched descendants of the higher three classes, are unfit by intelligence to understand transcendental subject matter concerning the spiritual name, fame, attributes, forms, etc., of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Such persons, although they are unfit to enter into the spiritual affairs of the Lord, can see Him as the arca-vigraha, who descends on the material world just to distribute favors to the fallen souls, including the above-mentioned women, sudras, and dvija-bandhus. Because such fallen souls cannot see anything beyond matter, the Lord condescends to enter into each and every one of the innumerable universes as the Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, who grows a lotus stem from the lotuslike depression in the center of His transcendental abdomen, and thus Brahma, the first living being in the universe, is born.

Personally I do not see where the guidelines in this purport go against the Daivi structure.

The context of this description of the qualifications of the women, sudras, and dvija bhandus is the most broad foundational understanding, and note that he goes on to relate these categorizations to be the reason why Lord Visnu enters into a universe, in order to distribute favors to these types of souls.

It denotes the lowest kinetic potential of the varnas. Pre manifestation, there is the glance of Lord Visnu. Then Lord Brahma heads up the manifestation of the Heavenly Administration of the demigods, and the populating of the rest of the universe. The earth begins in Satya Yuga, where there is a HUGE gap in spiritual REALIZATION between the varnas, and those above categories apply. Of course in Satya yuga, the Brahmanas and Ksyatrias hold righteous sway over most all of the earth, and we get steady spiritual advancement since all are following the Divine Varnasrama plan of Lord Visnu given through Lord Brahma and the Kumaras to the Maha-Rishis.

So Queen Kunti devi is so advanced that to her it is a NATURAL TENDENCY to act immediately the way she did. Whether she was Krsna Conscious on the spiritual platform or the material platform need not enter the equation, her bodily illusion would be the same and proper for a woman of her varna and ashram.

So for me, I use this and observe the women around me to see what there natural tendency is, which can be difficult to discern in a world where currently due to lack of vedic culture, many persons are twisted inside and not even civilized, forget about vedic, but we can see glimpses, and when we see those that match the scriptures, we can place special emphasis on praising those and truly appreciating what they bring to our lives, positively reinforcing self esteem and this deflects time and energy from non-vedic behavior.

In essence, this is how I try to treat all people, but fail miserably because I have unrealistically high standards of myself and others, so for those I have certainly offended, and that means all of you, I am sorry and hope to do better.

Oh yes, one thing I realized is that each man gets the woman he deserves, and her good behaviors are a reflection of his piety, her poor behaviors a reflection of his selfishness, and the way he corrects her is a sure sign of his spiritual maturity, and will certainly determine whether he is helping her or just lashing out at his own demon in her, in which case he certainly will have to come back and repeat the lesson again til he gets it.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

!

My emphasis on well thought out, and reasonable.

Which the seasoned critic and highly tuned B.S. detector tell me that were both lacking, and thus, "what I said."

But perhaps since you have been slightly cloistered in a "brahminical" community (which seems to exclude the understanding of the lower 3/4 of your bodily members (lower varnas), you are just a victim to this tunnel vision and not consciously intentionally malefic.

As a recovered victim myself, I know I still had some tendency to desire some part of the lifestyle my overlords had, or they never would have got their hooks in me. So I learned we need to deal with these unconscious manifestations of false ego when they arise, and sometimes it takes another to point them out, as you all have been so generously doing for me, but the difference here seems to be that you guys just deny, deny, deny, there could be any traces of tama guna in your desires and continue on with your exact method of behavior as if the honest criticisms were never taken to heart, just shrugged off and back to the drill.

We are supposed to identify these weeds and yank them out of the garden our creeper is in, not let them overgrow the garden while we proclaim, "oh what overgrowth, I can still see the sun, look through that crack.

Then our discussions actually produce more depth, because we will NATURALLY TEND to ask REASONABLE questions of each other, because of our true interest in learning as opposed to what this has ONLY temporarily been diverted to here, which is a bit of a one-upsman game and me calling it as it is, in hopes it will SUBSIST.

Of course my detractors will likely point out to my involvement in such a side track as MY DESIRE forgetting how originally they began down this road, so lets skip THAT route also, and just think about what we really have to say to each other, if anything on this subject, that would lead to some upliftment of our adhikary, and filter out the rest using a reasonable test, such as asking ourselves, "will he understand what I am saying?", "am I sure I see where he is coming from?", "Is this something truly relevant to the discussion theme?" "DID I READ EVERYTHING HE WROTE?" ETC..

Hoping for more harmony

ys

BD

I ask it this was because this is the way it will be asked by someone coming into contact with you 'in the field'. If you are working to establish the varnashram system, you better know the answer. It doesn't need to be too specific, but it has to be clear, concise and accurate.

Is using such hypothetically imagined scenarios a true way to guage what Caturbahu das' capacity for intelligently answering such a question is?

We are not "in the field". That context, the person's inner nature and other subtleties about their personality, their body movement, their level of interest reflecting in their eyes, the horns from the near fender bender a block away that make you pause your conversation, that is all intangible in your questioning so broad a topic in a hypothetical way over the internet.

In other words, as CB often points out this medium has vast limitations and here we see one, better for sifting out hard facts of history, who said what and where, etc.

As for the "role of women in Varnasrama, one could write a book on it. As a matter of fact in a way someone has. It is called the Srimad Bhagavatam by A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami.

Like I have been suggested for those truly interested in the material, and not just trying to set up Caturbahu dasa to look less knowledgable than he is, just read the books, and observe life unfold around you, and apply the conceptual knowledge from the books (jnana) to what you observe and then you will realize (vijnana) the truth about it.

And of course living among other devotees who devote some time to understanding this particular purpose of the Krsna Consciousness Movement can only accelerate this process and bring more pleasure to Srila Prabhupada. That is living in the field.

Hare Krsna

You are both big-mouthed Ksatriyas

My nickname in Junior league football was motor mouth.

It seems like a big mouth because I am fortunate enough to engage my passion in following orders, and apparently seem to be very spontaneous and outspoken in doing so, while those claiming Vaisnava status and advanced knowledge and Supersoul connections beyond the need to follow instructions closely are simply so mentally and emotionally emaciated that it is hard for them to handle the fact that someone else is actually more spontaneously alive than they are, and at the same time merely an advanced neophyte at best with a decent lexicon and lots of passion.

But as CB pointed out, LOLLOLLOL Oh, if you saw us in person, I may be a motor mouth, but He has the MAHA MAW between us, deep and bellowing and depending on your inner intentions in life, it could be pretty f'ing scary.

Hare Krsna

Prabhu, just please consider how you choose to express yourself, because though I am certainly offensive you definitely could use a drop of honey in your posts. Note Murali Mohan Prabhu's post above, you may not agree but he is right. 'Idiot' is a symptom of a problem, not the problem. Please take what I say seriously, as others can see what you can't.

 

How to get people to realize? Through humility, tolerance, and giving honor to others. Without seeking any honor for ourselves.

 

Sorry, I should try and follow my Gurudeva more closely:

 

We are what doing? Arrangement, making arrangement for Sankirtan. If there is no Sankirtan there is no result. And Sankirtan will be without offense. And first offense is satam ninda namnah param aparadham vitanute that meant sadhu ninda we not with... abuse anyone. Who is sadhu we do not know. Then we will be protected with that thought. I shall be good. You are good or bad, that is another thing. But first I shall be good, and with that knowledge if I shall proceed, I shall get benefit.

I was talking about getting a person to realize that he should probably go somewhere else for a while, meantime the people who are serious keep together and continue the discussion.

I am not speaking of anyone who I recognize as actually eager to learn and advance ok. Deal with it. People like that there is no polite way to say it, and if there is they don't listen anyway. If anything my fault is for being at all caring about the dynamic on an internet forum where anyone, serious or not can just throw there opinions around.

But the discussion has deep merit, and the contrarians and speculators who plunge in with whimsy do not seem to merit gentle consideration but I feel more like swatting at a mosquito that is buzzing around my head.

Sorry, you guys just don't deeply undertand the Ksyatria dharm, but I love you anyway.

Hare Krsna

Dear Murali,

you said.

Just how exactly does this statement of mine make me a ruffian? I did not intend this as a personal attack. By reasonable measure it's not a personal attack, it's a criticism of an *idea*. That it was taken personally and used as an excuse to begin diatribes and personal attacks should be an indication of the character of those who chose to be so offended.

 

If someone is claiming to be a Ksatriya, should they also not be equipoised? Being equipoised under all circumstances is one of the qualities of the Vaishnava, is it not? So, if, in a debate, where our ideas are being attacked (not us personally), we lose our cool and begin calling folks "ruffians" and other names, does this not indicate a lack of qualification to be a Ksatriya? If someone is going to wield the power of a mantra that is many times more powerful than conventional atomic weapons, I would hope they would be able to maintain their composure on a web discussion board.

 

 

Your first words here, before your artificial comment were.

"After all, Varnashram Dharma is not a prescription for how things *ought* to be, it is a description of how things *are* in a balanced, God-conscious society."

Just to refresh your memory, again, about how "Mr. Equiposed I gotta run to my staff meeting but lemme just jump in and throw around some unsubstantiated speculation into a spiritual discussion" decides to introduce himself. And I quickly dismantled that specualtion by pointing to how Srila Prabhupada himself prescribed this as how things ought to be in his society in so many words.

You want some honey? Don't come in and speculate in the MIDDLE of spiritual discussions where some people are gravely serious about getting straight with their eternal dharma straightened out and asking pertinent questions regarding such.

Don't be so overly sensitive to a playful smack by a brotherly Ksyatria type.

Then you will feel the sweetness that is already there. If that is what you really want.

Hare Krsna