Bhakta Devarsi

But if someone does take the vows to follow the regs, there's no question they should follow, even if the regs change later.

I believe this is your last hurdle.

IN ESSENCE, Srila Prabhupada ordered new vows to be given. He just had to get it on record. The regs did change. And so did alot of peripheral rules which are to be followed just as strictly as a vow, if you want advancement.

So in essence, those giving initiations on Srila Prabhupada's behalf in the later years were in disobedience as to the vows they were holding everyone to.

Those with some brahminical capacity were able to hang on longer.

It is quite simple.

So when someone later is told about the conspiracy to withhold the truth, and breaks down crying remembering the torture they put themselves through trying to be more like a brahmana, thinking of suicide because they were haplessly breaking rules they could never really keep and didn't make sense for them. Even if they followed most of the 4 regs in their negative connotation, their positive engagement was never enough to fill the void, and it was false repression and renunciation the whole way.

They are overjoyed to hear that the 4 regs are tailor made to them, without loosing their essence, and that a wide range of other rules were meant in the same light.

And someone wants them to follow the original "vows" they were tricked into?

That is like saying there can be consensual sex between a 12 year old girl and a 30 year old man. She doesn't even know what she is consenting to.

In the same way, after Srila Prabhupada changed the rules, the Transcendental Shabda permeated the ether, and that was the standard henceforward, the Guna and Karma of all Jiva's to approach his movement from then on perfectly accounted for by his Dictator, Sri Paramatma.

Let the people go. In love, they will return.

Hare Krsna

Quote:

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In preparation for the ashrams? That is a concoction.

Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on.

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I was wrong. I like what he says anyway, and in any event, He was making these distinctions properly concerning one dimension of the definition of the process he was initiating, trying to cement the concept with us, while simultaneously that was only part of the truth, because there is not a possibility of one being engaged in their varna, as per varnasrama, without having been twice born, at least in the heart. We know this is the essence. To use a portion of the definition and point to it as the end all definitive, is a blunder.

In varnasramas past, the sudras were aspiring to be twice born.

In Krsna Consciousness movement DVD, any one taking direction from a Vaisnava and following nicely, if they are being engaged by that Vaisnava as a sudra, they are considered Vaisnava, as in Brahmacarya at least. They may even be told they are not in an ashram yet, but you and I know the WHOLE truth. Just for the record, so we can assist them, someone needs to see the big picture. It does not diminish the method of giving only some of the truth in the beginnning. Please see this.

Just as he says the factory worker giving his fruits to Iskcon as being essentially a sanyassin.

We are essence seekers, so why pretend? Essentially, someone comes to the transcendental trickster's Varnasrama College and is engaged according to their "Varna", if they accept they are automatically in Ashrama.

Hare Krsna

He was saying they were for the varnashrama college, which would be open to the public. In preparation for the ashrams.

Hello! Hello McFly!?!?

Iskcon was always open to the public.

Iskcon was the Varnasrama College among other things.

He was just trying to get us to see what was already there in outline form, and show us how to live it more fully, and expand from there.

In preparation for the ashrams? That is a concoction.

You still have not read one hundredth of the type of information Caturbahu dasa and I have been supplying.

There is so much more. Just so you can broaden your view as to what has been witheld from devotees for so long. By conspiracy, which is public knowledge, and Srila Prabhupada said the Sinister Movement was already in his Society, check the quote, letter to Hamsadutta.

This is the tip of the iceberg.

Srila Prabhupada was very accomodating, just to get people to start Chanting and associating a little. You ain't seen nothin yet.

Hare Krsna

Both quotes from 3/14/74: It is clear to me that the varnashrama college is to be open to anyone, not initiated disciples only, the varnas come first, and that the ashrams and spiritual life come later. Therefore to be in the varnas is not necessarily that one is initiated, just training to get to the human platform on the way to the ashrams:

 

 

 

 

 

So then the devotees are not in the varnashrama but above it, but act within it as good examples:

 

 

 

 

 

And killing:

 

 

March 15 and April 20th of 1977 don't appear to be correct dates for the conversations you mention. Please provide the date where to find this.

 

I don't see the conversation where Srila Swami Maharaj says some can eat meat, and this is really what is likely the key, not necessarily about meat but who he is saying can eat it. Not killing, we take no vow not to kill, that is understood. But we do take a vow not to eat meat. My point is that when you join in the ashrams, when you become initiated, you are held to that vow. If there is a place Srila Swami Maharaj talks about initiation and the varnas I would like to read that.

 

Above all things, I don't want to cause any offense to the vaisnavas and that is why I don't wish to argue with you. We have read much the same things and come to different conclusions. That is not unheard of. As long as you are willing to discuss it rationally, I'm happy to continue.

I don't see the conversation where Srila Swami Maharaj says some can eat meat,

It was JUST posted on page 2 of THIS thread. I found it pretty easy, but then of course I had not far to look, because I remember JUST READING IT.

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

 

Hridayananda: What he kills.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

The proof was already posted in its entirety.

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That is the problem here. It is all in black and white.

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Everyone gets initiation in Iskcon if they surrender to the vows given to them by the Acharya. Srila Prabhupada said Sudra follows different but still gets the initiation.

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This idea that he was giving instructions for some imaginary group of people “outside” Iskcon is a straw man argument.

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We are not supposed to instruct anyone not willing. So how could he have been making all these rules, giving them to his senior men, telling them to implement them amongst themselves and the rest of Iskcon, and actually have meant that we are to enforce them on people who are not surrendered enough to take initiation.

My god man, Srila Prabhupada uses Sri Bhima Ji as an example, and you wonder if the Ksyatrias he mentions would be initiated disciples of his.

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Check Mate.

I am not picking apart anyone's life Prabhu. This is about the subject at hand, don't make it personal.

 

All I can say about your take on Srila Swami Maharaj's desires is that it is speculation. He desired a varnashrama college surely, he desired his disciples to break up into varnas for convenience of service, but specifically stated the devotees didn't belong to the varnas. He never instituted a new initiation system with different vows for the different varnas, and none of your quotes you have presented lead to this conclusion that it was his desire to do so.

 

So while I am perfectly fine with daiva Varnashrama dharma becoming a more official part of the movement, I believe you are incorrect in saying different vows for different devotees.

See my latest post above and use your god given discrimination to read between the lines.

Srila Prabhupada told us to surrender intelligently, not surrender our intelligence.

Change was never open. No other offer was make publicly to 'ISKCON'

 

Good reply by the way. I would like to see at least a 100 different ones.

 

CB-r

I say that by then Srila Prabhupada was so besieged by those who he considered the sinister movement, and had to be so placating to their egos just to keep his movement going one more day, that we were fortunate they let him live after speaking in public conversations about changing the regs by varna and flat out ordering them to implement DVD in the society.

You can just by reading their responses in these conversations see the utter shock and confusion as their brains rebelled at the fact that he was implying they had a long way to go to be Vaisnava. And then their challenging of him was dealt with strictly and convincingly.

"What are you giving up? You speak as if you have something. You cant even get a meal." and things like that.

So he weaved in his instructions little by little. Knowing this was a long term game, and that Krsna would send SOME SINCERE PERSONS to coalate His Vani regarding His DVD institution.

Brajeshwara dasa, you have to understand that they locked him in a room in LA for over 3 days on starvation ration and water. Public knowledge.

He wasn't about to "publicly" as in some society wide communication to all TP's get out the changes he was making in any official way.

The only reason the July 9th letter got out, was because there was months of pointed and consistent discussion on the issue, too many witnesses, and they thought they could use it to their advantage anyway.

Having to classify people as they actually were, would put a big cramp in their style of keeping people working their various NON VEDIC personal schemes which were already well established by the early 70's right in Srila Prabhupada's face I might add.

Is this picture starting to become a little more clear?

If you meant from the above that he wasn't eating meat then that works for me. But your words just by the question you ask logically indicate you are talking about eating. I think you could have been more clear if you meanty otherwise.

See my post #12 again.

He may have eaten meat upon first leaving the crooked Iskcon scheme in 1978. But I show reasonably how reasonable it actually is to dwell on such a falldown from a "vow".

And the example of organizing a hunting party today, was used because in essence Supersoul organized HIM into a hunting party after being forced for 3 years by clueless leaders to be more brahminical then he was ready to, and Supersoul got him out in a solo hunting party. And sometimes the Ksyatrias take the meat, usually give it to the sudra. So now Caturbahu dasa is healthy, and a good shot, so look out!

The point is that 30 years later this is no disqualification from understanding Srila Prabhupada's orders regarding DVD, especially when backed up with quotes, logic and reason.

Hare Krsna

But if I take these persons and train them to kill, still I do not eat the meat because I have a vow not to eat meat. I should do my service in detachment to my desires, only for the satisfaction of the Lord. Especially something like killing, this is something that should be meditated upon and there should be a very clear necessity for the service.

I never implied otherwise.

The real issue here is that Srila Prabhupada's leading men were not implimenting Srila Prabhupada's new vision as he was revealing it. They were unwilling to adjust on the fly, and had invested in some gross sense gratifying fashion into the status quo.

So between the conversations we have seen, and all else which escaped the purging of unwanted Vani, we see that Srila Prabhupada gave the adjustments to his leading men giving them the benefit of the doubt, as always, that they would fulfill their appointed office and make the adjustments.

That they did not, and to this day still do not, to this day initiating everyone and trying to hold them to the 4 regs and all the other supporting rituals and regs for Brahmana only, they have turned everything inside out, and alienated or ruined many devotees.

So Caturbahu das comes in just as Srila Prabhupada turned up the heat on his wayward disciples regarding the distinctions they are failing to see in terms of Varna and Ashram.

According to Srila Prabhupada's preaching and direct orders to his disciples, they should have been observing Caturbahu dasa accordingly, and interviewing and observing all new bhaktas to see how they fit in to the same system, just more purely defined by their acharya.

Instead, they force the full range of 4 regs+ Brahmin duties on everyone, instead of letting the sudra live according to the "rules and regs of a sudra" as was NOW supposed to be the case. they were eliciting the same vows as always.

So Caturbahu das, in a beginners mood, goes for something that was a bit out of his reach. But what he was presented was not exactly what Srila Prabhupada had in mind anymore, but that is the fault of his disciples for not implementing, and Caturbahu's bad karma to be tricked into taking vows he was not qualified to keep. And Srila Prabhupada saw his sincerety, and guided him to understand who he TRULY was in the material sense. Giving his Blessing that he is Ksyatria, giving him service as such, and giving him the sense to see through the nonsense and bail out after NOONE from the LA temple would heed his warnings and his attempt at a counter coup, the Zonal Acharyas took over.

So after his Spiritual Master was roughly treated in places he could no longer protect him, and then left the planet, Caturbahu dasa "fell" from his "Vows".

And engaged in the types of behaviors that Srila Prabhupada specifically said that we should expect to need to engage Ksyatrias in at some point.

What a better way to rationalize questioning all of the evidence Caturbahu dasa has presented from the Acharya to back his case for implementing DVD system wide, and casting SERIOUS doubt by placing such a seemingly impervious ad hominem attack.

"LOOK HE BROKE HIS VOW."

Of course when looked at in light of the above, this in reality is the smallest thing, a mere hiccup, to be overlooked immediately as a falldown in the letter of the law, but the spirit intact.

I would say it is a worse activity to pick apart someone elses life to find one thing to harp on in order to make a smokescreen so others might miss all the good they have to day.

Hare Krsna

Would a Ksyatria spirited Bhakta who was interacting with Karmis in a preaching mode after congregating with them for some time be guilty of eating meat if he began to take the other Ksyatria spirited Bhaktas out to thin the deer population in order to sharpen their fighting skills in war time? Is he breaking his vow not to eat meat?

BG 2.52

 

 

 

yada te moha-kalilam

buddhir vyatitarisyati

tada gantasi nirvedam

srotavyasya srutasya ca

 

Translation

 

 

When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has been heard and all that is to be heard.

 

PURPORT

There are many good examples in the lives of the great devotees of the Lord of those who became indifferent to the rituals of the Vedas simply by devotional service to the Lord. When a person factually understands Krsna and his relationship with Krsna, he naturally becomes completely indifferent to the rituals of fruitive activities, even though an experienced brahmana. Sri Madhavendra Puri, a great devotee and acarya in the line of the devotees, says:

sandhya-vandana bhadram astu bhavato bhoh snana tubhyam namo

bho devah pitaras ca tarpana-vidhau naham ksamah ksamyatam

yatra kvapi nisadya yadava-kulottamasya kamsa-dvisah

smaram smaram agham harami tad alam manye kim anyena me.

"O Lord, in my prayers three times a day, all glory to You. Bathing, I offer my obeisances unto You. O demigods! O forefathers! Please excuse me for my inability to offer you my respects. Now wherever I sit, I can remember the great descendant of the Yadu dynasty [Krsna], the enemy of Kamsa, and thereby I can free myself from all sinful bondage. I think this is sufficient for me." The Vedic rites and rituals are imperative for neophytes: comprehending all kinds of prayer three times a day, taking a bath early in the morning, offering respects to the forefathers, etc. But, when one is fully in Krsna consciousness and is engaged in His transcendental loving service, one becomes indifferent to all these regulative principles because he has already attained perfection. If one can reach the platform of understanding by service to the Supreme Lord Krsna, he has no longer to execute different types of penances and sacrifices as recommended in revealed scriptures. And, similarly, if one has not understood that the purpose of the Vedas is to reach Krsna and simply engages in the rituals, etc., then he is uselessly wasting time in such engagements. Persons in Krsna consciousness transcend the limit of sabda-brahma, or the range of the Vedas and Upanisads.

 

The key word being the word When. The speaker, the spiritual master, is asserting that this is a prescription to the Currently diseased disciple, and it will have effect When?, in the future. Only then shall one become indifferent to all mundanity and able to transcend the rules and regs.

So we see in the purport, Srila Prabhupada offers us a prayer from a devotee who is ALREADY THERE AT THE GOAL, and gives us other indications of the symptoms displayed by someone who is ALREADY AT THE GOAL. He does this for encouragement and to whet our palate.

Next he begins giving the instruction to the beginner, us, on what we need to do to make the When into a Now.

"The Vedic rites and rituals are imperative for neophytes: comprehending all kinds of prayer three times a day, taking a bath early in the morning, offering respects to the forefathers, etc."

Imperative until the day we become indifferent to them. And what are the symptoms that one has become qualified to just become indifferent to the rites and rituals (rules and regs of vaidhi sadhana bhakti)?

"when one is fully in Krsna consciousness and is engaged in His transcendental loving service, one becomes indifferent to all these regulative principles." And he adds, this person has "Already attained perfection."

Fully Krsna Conscious. Already PERFECT. In loving service. Loving. Love of Krsna is required to serve him with love. The goal is love of Krsna. So only one who has reached the goal can ever become indifferent to the rules and regs, what to mention begin to interpret them to neophytes.

"If one can reach the platform of understanding by service to the Supreme Lord Krsna, he has no longer to execute different types of penances and sacrifices as recommended in revealed scriptures."

Here I would like to see some input from others.

Are penances and sacrifices as per scripture considered under the rites and rituals?

Because all he indicates here as requirement to give these up is reaching something he calls the platform of understanding. And that one gets to this understanding by service to the Supreme Lord Krsna.

The level of service in this case is open to broad interpretation if you equate his use of the phrase "service to the Supreme Lord Krsna" with his different aspect of the Siksa Guru, but if Oneness is invoked here, then direct service to Lord Krsna sounds like service in Dwarka to me with face time.

Next he mentions understanding again,

"And, similarly, if one has not understood that the purpose of the Vedas is to reach Krsna and simply engages in the rituals, etc., then he is uselessly wasting time in such engagements."

Here equating it with simply having some conceptual impression that the goal of one's practicing rules and regs is to "reach Krsna".

I would say that most neophytes engage in the rather austere and unusual cultural activities of the Iskcon movement because they have some understanding they are trying to get some further awareness of who Krsna is, who he is to them, who they might be to him.

But taken as it is, to "REACH KRSNA" sounds pretty personal in the oneness category.

So each person has some mental concept of who Krsna is. As long as there is some factual substance to that persons understanding, even if it is very immature and crude, truth is the truth.

And the platform of understanding is only reached by service to the Supreme Lord Krsna.

So the question is, under what circumstances does a neophyte who has barely begun to engage in rules and regs, suddenly get perfection, and can shun the rituals?

How often does that occur. Contrast that with how many neophytes seem to need the rituals for a while.

So, lets see, counting in my mind, doing the math.....

I would say a million to one.

So it seems like this would be evidence that Srila Prabhupada is speaking of the highest degree of qualification, and using the Name of Krsna to specifically represent his Personal Form in its highest glory, service to him personally in a loving relationship.

And we know from the CC Adi lila 4 21-22 purport.

Flawless execution of regulative principles is exhibited in the Vaikuntha planets. By strictly executing these principles one can be elevated to the Vaikuntha planets. But spontaneous pure loving service is found in Krsnaloka alone.

Of course if these rules and rituals are so valuable that they can bring us into a loving relationship with the Lord as Sri Naryana in his personal service, I would consider that the rules as a group be carefully categorized and kept whole, kept sacred, and actual enacting them in our lives a goal as high above our head as the moon is above mine when I look at the night sky.

Hare Krsna

Court jesters need to be quiet sometimes too.

 

CB-r

Perhaps we need to better arrange the kingdom to accomodate and contain the wide variety of foolish mishaps we engage in as we stumble toward our goal of Prema of Krsna.

So far it seems like lemons and lemonade, but that fits the mood of separation and its bittersweet nature.

Still we should pray for the increase in more meaningful service, knowing it will come being our faith to fuel the prayer.

Stumbling along while Praying I won't stumble.

ys

B.Mark

No nothing legal. My wife kicked me out and I almost got remarried then went back with my wife and Ms. Bhaktin Almost, "banned" me from living in Alachua. I was actually born and raised in Florida and have always liked that part. Now back with the family a long ways off.

Too bad, but enjoy Gaura Purnima wherever you are, Sri Mahaprabhu's mercy has you where you are for the good, strange as that sometimes appears, especially as I am thinking, oh, here is one of the first real humans in Vaisnava dress I have met in a long time and he seems familiar with my neck of the woods, etc.

Hari Bol

How do you reconcile your vows with hunting then?

If you weren't in such a defensive and combative mood, you could figure this one out for yourself, but alas.

The vow was not to take meat, not to refuse to engage the local Ksyatrias in the hunting required to keep them sharp in a wartime situation.

Oh, I forget, you live in Northern California. Its own little bubble, its own little loka, sweet and dandy like cotton candy.

Until the government pulls the noose, and all their "dependents" (the whole state and its property) is forclosed upon at the end of a jackboot.

Been there done that, warned you about Elmer, but you insist you are in la la land.

Listen, hear, THINK, then check to see your thoughts are in line with your Acharya, thus in line with the grace of the Lord. As long as the thinking is backed up by an authority figure, yer good to go, just quote em if ya got em.

SB 2.10.20 purport by Srila Prabhupada

"The idea is that the living entity cannot do anything independently. He can simply think of doing something independently, but he cannot act independently. This independence in thinking is there by the grace of the Lord, but the thinking can be given shape by the grace of the Lord, and therefore the common saying is that man proposes and God disposes."

Hare Krsna

In SCSMath we have 1st and 2nd initiations. 1st is Hare Nama with the agreement to follow the 4 regs. No fire sacrifice. 2nd is Gayatri initiation with the sacrifice. Then you are a Brahmin. So there is room there to not have to reach the brahminical standards, but still the 4 regs are required. We are initiated to be devotees, not ksatriyas, vaisyas or sudras.

 

Anyhow, if you took a vow to follow the 4 regs and have gone a'hunting, I can't blame you, I have gotten intoxicated, gambled and had illicit sex. An egg or two as well. But I would never consider trying to interpret Guru's words to mean I am released from my vow. I am a sinner and a terrible disciple who has not followed correctly according to my agreement with my Gurudeva. I am truly lower than a worm in stool and am ashamed of myself.

 

What it appears to me, please forgive any offense but I'm speaking from the heart, is that Maya has clouded your judgment and you used Srila Swami Maharaj's desire for a varnashrama college and to have the varnas as part of ISKCON to mean that you are released from your vows. You apparently look for his words to support your conclusions instead of looking for the truth in his words. This is bad for you and I hope you can see that. That is worse than the act of killing and eating the meat. You may act in the capacity of a ksatriya but please don't ignore Srila Swami Maharaj said a devotee is not in the varnas though you play that role. Unless he specifically released you from your vows you are bound to them, no matter what you have worked out in your head. Others that may follow may be bound by different rules surely, but they are not retroactive (unless you can prove otherwise).

 

But that isn't to say you guys don't have a real mission with your DVD. Just misconceptions maybe. I would think the way the varna system should be set up would be for the congregation of lay people who haven't taken initiation like theist, who aren't ready to make those vows. They can be identified as those varnas and participate in the society without being bound to any vows. They would be encouraged to follow surely but no vows. But once one takes Hare Nama initiation, unless a bona fide acharya says otherwise, they should try and follow the four regs as best they can. Hopefully this would keep those that aren't ready for the vows engaged and on the path of bhakti, and those that take the vows would be limited to persons ready for the commitment. Once they take the vows, they are still a ksatriya or whatever their varna was, but they are bound to the vows and considered an aspiring devotee. Then second initiation for those with the inclination for pujari etc service. This would seem to harmonize everything from my thinking.

 

Please consider this with an open heart.

Well spoken Prabhu, but consider this one comment,

"But I would never consider trying to interpret Guru's words to mean I am released from my vow."

That is your flaw, because that was never implied nor inferred, but you took the possibility it might be there anyway and made a pretty nice essay around it, so I take it as the end justifying the means.

But still know that in preaching, this is what we must preach to meet those souls with less sukrti, krpa sakti, and or advancement then some of us have, the latest rules and regs, compiled, equal the rules and regs for those initiated in the future, and this would necessitate the authorized proxy initiators to know the candidate quite well according to their conditioned symptoms to assure that the rules and regs given to that person were appropriate thus DVD knowledge a must. From now on. Prabhupada's orders.

So we can engage those Ksyatria's less brahminically inclined then such a stalwart like Caturbahu, and all the Vaisya's and Sudras too, and we all start with deep conditioning, so Prabhupada extended his merciful glance to habitual meat eaters and drinkers, just regulate and thus gradually restrict.

A house the whole world can live in.

Caturbahu das' example of him taking license in his neophyte days was an accidental fall down for sure, as time has obviously wizened him for the wear, and he is right back on the saddle with lesson learned.

Hare Krsna

Oh doom and gloom, its too late, just grovel and chant the names prabhu.

 

Yawn.

 

 

This from a theist I know who claims he is not trying to start his own movement, yet he speaks for his disciples quite plainly. "WE are waiting."

 

I'll get around to it. If you and your imaginary friends are really interested.

 

And about this, fear not.

 

 

The command will be, shoot to kill, only if he is a thiest.

 

Ha got ya on that one, OOh, I am so funny.

 

and silly.

 

So what, I am also right on the mark.

 

And apparently you NEED a batch like i got.

 

Hare Krsna

For those of you just tuning in, here is the situation.

In an inspired mood, the Audarya Fellowship has allowed a watershed internet forum free-for all to take place. The topic, the lifeblood of Iskcon, the orders of the Founder, Acharya, and Initiating Spiritual Master, HDG Bhaktivedanta Swami, specifically his orders to

Hari-çauri: Where will we introduce the varëäçrama system, then?

Prabhupäda: In our society, amongst our members.

and more specifically regarding the evolution of his specifically detailed instructions for the rules and regulations for each varna as personal instruction for those who tended to need institutional rules, instructions which came to an end in late 1977, and which a true disciple would never imagine were contradictory to the general guidelines of DVD given in his Books.

So, we have a few telling it like it is, for the first time in a spontaneously orchestrated experience on the world wide web, a jester in tow, and hot on their heels are the hounds of hell, unleashed from the belly of Aghasura himself, through the head atheist in disguise and his unwitting victims.

Hill Billy or not, they don't call em Raja for nothin.

Fire with Fire, oh my oh my, my bet is on Bhaktivedanta Swami's Raja Bhakta 8 to 1 odds, pm me if you want part of the action, and stay tuned for more mad fun.

Hare Krsna

Aghasura has a tight stranglehold

So we know of at least C the bhakti king practices what he preachs. However it is not what Prabhupada taught. Much of the conversations he is quoting is from a talk in Vrndavana where Srila Prabhupada is discussing about opening up a varnashrama college in India, (I think Vrndavana but don't remember exactly). This college was to be for the general public where parents could send their kids.

 

We are still waiting for the explict quote where Srila Prabhupada gives permission for his initiated kysatriya type disciples to go to the woods to kill and eat some poor animal.

 

Can you picture it. Once a month all these so-called kysatriyas set out from the city Iskcon centers in a camo colored van, dressed a vedic warriors, heading for woods to get in their killing practice.

 

I don"t know what you guys are smoking but I think you got a bad batch. Which brings up ainteresting pont. Are Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciples who are classified as sudras also allowed to break the no intoxication vows on some schedulued basis, you know like a few beers or bowls after work?

Oh doom and gloom, its too late, just grovel and chant the names prabhu.

Yawn.

We are still waiting for the explict quote

 

This from a theist I know who claims he is not trying to start his own movement, yet he speaks for his disciples quite plainly. "WE are waiting."

I'll get around to it. If you and your imaginary friends are really interested.

And about this, fear not.

Once a month all these so-called kysatriyas set out from the city Iskcon centers in a camo colored van, dressed a vedic warriors, heading for woods to get in their killing practice.

The command will be, shoot to kill, only if he is a thiest.

Ha got ya on that one, OOh, I am so funny.

and silly.

So what, I am also right on the mark.

And apparently you NEED a batch like i got.

Hare Krsna

What are you proposing, that you just sit in your room with your Bhagavatamas and bead bag and never assoiciate with devotees? Or are you proposing that we all associate with other Rtviks?

I beg you, re-read what I said and see it in the context I intended, which was to show that indeed there were many disciples made by Srila Prabhupada with no so called reciprocal relationship as defined by Mahaksa dasa, and the other embodied guru wallahs, as in Srila Prabhupada was not there in his Vapu chastising them everyday for being such meatheads, and chuckling fondly with them about the sweeter things, they NEVER MET.

So, my question is crystal clear, wipe the fog from your eyes. For Mahak to then make a authoritative statement such as this...

Srila Prabhupadas version is that :"The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit". Any system that denies the guru having this right to be part of the reciprocal relationship really has nothing to do with prabhupada, no matter how they pledge their allegiance to him. When Srila Prabhupada was touring Self Realization Foundation Headquarters in Pacific Palisades Ca, ca 1968, he stated that the SRF idea of initiating disciples for Paramahamsa Yogananda years after his passing from this realm was a bogus idea. Srimad Bhagavatam has many stories of how a disciple approaches guru, asks pertenant questions, receives perfect answers. The best way to see if a physically present guru is re3quired, ask your guru.

He is correct that the Guru has the right to that form of reciprocal relationship, and that cannot be denied, and any group of systematists who tell you different are full of bunk, however.

It is not just the Guru's right, but his call on whether it is necessary, and how much or how little vapu association is necessary, wouldn't ya say.

So we get another "Prabhupada story with the Yogi disciples going to visit Yogananda's Blissful hermatige story" from Mahak the guy who disdains the "Prabhupada said crowd", and then his own poetic speculative spew to convince us on... the strength of his own mind.

Bravo.

Back to Reality. If you are going to say, "Srila Prabhupada's version is..." you are in tricky territory when his disciples are nearby, better act as if it were so.

No mountain is high enough, no valley so low. For the lonely person, there is no where left to go but home to your Prabhupada's lotus feet.

Hare Krsna

ys

BM

Sorry but the regs were laid out clearly for all and didn't you guys agree to follow when you took initiation? A vow? Did Srila Swami Maharaj tell you you are released from some regs?

 

Again, quotes supporting that it is OK for an initiated disciple to eat meat would be helpful. Many more would join the movement if that were the case I guess. Would there be a separate ksatriya initiation, a sudra initiation, a vaisya initiation?

Srila Prabhupada was obviously giving one set of instructions for the brahminical varna if you haven't figured that out by now. He accepted casualties, get over it. We can triage the wounded, they were cheated by their own ambition, Srila Prabhupada gave them what they really wanted, an opportunity to cheat using the Holy Name. How merciful.

There are quotes in this thread regarding what the members of his Society are supposed to do to eat meat and still be recognized.

Another huge mental blinder is to make a difference between Srila Prabhupada's instructions and rules for his disciples, and what the rest of the world should do. How to defend that????

His disciples were supposed to share these rules with the rest of the world.

So of course the Varnasrama College was for the rest of the world.

The rest of the world is exemplified in each new person who approached and is interested. They become disciple when they follow the rules.

Simple for the Simple.

But for the sake of your hang up, he also said "not that we will encourage", but if they persist, we are to make natural arrangements. Then he gave the time schedules, and the specific Material Demigod Managers to appease with a an offering of meat and puja.

It is in there so you can look it up, just like I would have to do, if you don't value my paraphrasing.

Hare Krsna

mahaksa dasa says

mahak: Guru-disciple relationships are reciprocal. Relationship means two are relating as one. Srila Prabhupadas version is that "The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit". Any system that denies the guru having this right to be part of the reciprocal relationship really has nothing to do with prabhupada, no matter how they pledge their allegiance to him. When Srila Prabhupada was touring Self Realization Foundation Headquarters in Pacific Palisades Ca, ca 1968, he stated that the SRF idea of initiating disciples for Paramahamsa Yogananda years after his passing from this realm was a bogus idea. Srimad Bhagavatam has many stories of how a disciple approaches guru, asks pertenant questions, receives perfect answers. The best way to see if a physically present guru is re3quired, ask your guru.

Please tell us Mahaksa dasa, what then is the fate of the poor souls who Srila Prabhupada inititated through representatives for years without ever meeting them or even knowing their names?

And how does this speak to Srila Prabhupada's integrity as a Vaisnava to leave such a dangling participle which eventually would mean spiritual disaster.

Please enlighten us if you can.

The varnashrama college that Srila Swami Maharaj wanted to open, was that for the whole of society or for initiated disciples?

 

I still have a hard time believing he told his initiated disciples that they should eat meat. He said that even though a Vaisnava may do the work of a sudra, he isn't a sudra. So it seems a misunderstanding to me to think because you are doing the work of a ksatriya, as an initiated disciple, a devotee, you can skip the regulative principles and eat meat.

 

Please give more quotes on this subject, specifically about initiated disciples eating meat. Generalities about the varnashrama system may not apply, my concern really is about devotional life, not adjusting society at large. I'm not saying you are wrong and to an extent it makes sense, but the statement "our sinful activities which one must avoid if there is to be any hope for spiritual advancement" seems pretty clear to me. You are following the moral materialistic doctrine of varnashrama and that is fine, but shouldn't you also follow the spiritual path as well? It seems you made a bad trade to me. I really feel you misunderstand Srila Swami Maharaj on this, but please clarify, if you show he wanted his initiated disciples to eat meat I will accept that.

This is a clear example of using a personal communication between Guru and disciple, via a private letter, which was meant for his ears only in a unique place and time, and projecting that as something that would trump further adjustments to his instructions to the society via public conversations addressing senior disciples.

You lose a sense priorities when the poison of jumping over the head of Guru takes effect, and thus wind up having to try and rationalize what is plainly a sense of confusion and conceptual contradiction in one's daily life.

Please learn from this lesson, it is a good one.

Hare Krsna

I AM the great and powerful, most merciful and I am aTHEIST.

As I AM aTHEIST, I have come to the most profound understanding of my divinity.

As I stand here upon this high peak looking down upon all of you unwashed masses, it brings crocodile tears to my eyes. You are not capable of understanding how or who or what you were meant to be or do in this world amidst your lower carnal desires.

There is no hope for a gradual process of salvation, redemption, and falling in love with God for such fools as you. There is no time left, you have ruined everything.

ON YOUR KNEES and chant the names of God.

And you can thank me later, when you realize I was and am aTHEIST. And the only one who knows what is best for EVERYONE else.

Muahahahaha

Sorry if this seemed offensive to all you aTHEISTS out there, but this ruse has been already tried and my 12 year old neice could see through this, that is why I thought I would have a smashing good time with it, because it is so laughable.

 

Thanks to those athiests among us for such a hoot.

Hare Krsna

I thought these were two different things altogether

The optimal way for a Gaudiya Vaisnava to obtain his knowledge is via the descending process, which means accepting the words of authority as they are.

If there arises a case where we "thought" that 2 things our authority is claiming are virtually identical, were "altogether different", this means we were speculating, and we jumped ahead of ourselves, taking in bits of information here and there by reading above our level of practical realization, and thus forming illusory concepts.

If you want clarity, go back to the beginning. Start reading the Bhagavad Gita. Take it as it is, concept by concept.

If you find yourself speculating, curse your mind, pray for forgiveness, whatever it takes, and go back to what you know, and learn the next step.

Rehab is a bitch, but she serves our highest interest, which is NOT jumping ahead, for it leads to thinking things that aren't, and wastes your precious life.

Hare Krsna

ys

BM

Well then I will try not to be puffed up by serving you as the 'remote control'.

 

I have heard that it is possible for a brahmana to fall from his position and become sudra. Why is it not possible for sudra to become brahmana?

 

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible.

Lol, I wish I could control myself.

Anyway back to the topic,

A sudra Man, would be a person who when met by the Vaisnava was immersed in ignorance of Vedic knowledge, AND doing what they are told in a laborious menial way in the beginning (apprentice) which can lead to a graceful artform (master), from the street sweeper to the visual artist, what they have in common is lack of the qualities of other varnas. Here we speak of the general idea of sudra.

So one may quickly gain the good qualities of a Vaisnava through sincere practice of the rules and regulations of a Sudra according to Daivi Varnasrama, and thus the good qualities of a Brahmana, but what about the intellectual skill, the intellectual stamina.

For so long a Kali Yuga sudra did not have clue #1 as to anything but mating sleeping eating and defending. No knowledge of transcendental realities, or tendencies toward Righteous piety.

And if a Man, 20 or older, how to then turn that person who never tended to be skillful in teaching, to study and repeating scripture, or leading a lifestyle of ritual goodness, into that.

I never say never, if the desire is there, and the person has latent and supressed tendencies, they may be reeducated especially if there is someone who can see their potential and draw it out if they are willing to undergo the necessary training.

But generally, a leg is a leg, there would be no movement without legs, and in DVD, they are treasured, and never have a sense of being less then around the other parts of the body, and in such a situation, they feel Krsna Conscious and part of the family, because that is how they are seen by other devotees. Thus with sincerety their advancement is guaranteed because the higher varnas never abandon, never withdraw their shelter, and at death, the sudra will be so infused with the love of his fellows devotees, he will eagerly certainly remember Krsna at death.

That is how I see it.

Thank you for the great conversation.

y.s.

BM

I consider myself a sudra because of wasting the first half of my life in pursuit of the unreal. Thus entering darkness and not being able to tell what was what. Where the influence of the mode of ignorance was dominent.

 

I consider myself a sudra because the only work I can seem to be qualified for is menial tasks.

 

I am attempting to be a Vaisnava, hence forth desiring that this propensity to talk loosely of other Vaisnava's may leave my heart.

 

What qualifications in life deems one fit to call themselves, Ksatriya?

That is a nice prayer Bija Prabhu.

Between your self observed symptoms of Sudra Varna due what you have to trade for living, coupled with your attempting to be a Vaisnava, this places you AT LEAST in the category of beginner Vaisnava in good faith. That is no small thing. A neophyte following the rules and regulations given by their Guru faithfully is considered to be a pure devotee who will make rapid advancement.

And of course my Srila Prabhupada has this to say about such a person if they follow strictly the "rules and regulations of a sudra"

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

 

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Since everyone involved is gradually developing Vaisnava qualities, you should never feel as if someone is looking down at you. If that is the case, you made a wrong turn, and should beg the Lord for guidance to proper association.

Of course if you are with a group of sincere people who are properly situated according to their natural tendencies of social order, but are proceeding with great difficulty due to many faults and imperfections, and maybe one or two people are out of varna just to keep the whole gig afloat, hey, welcome to Kali Yuga, we need to tolerate that kind of blemish and look for the chance to improve without dwelling overly so on the material side. If a wheel falls off the Rath Cart in mid parade, that needs to be tended to no? Other wise, if it develops a crack but still will roll, and you are 9/10 the way to the finish line, the judgement call says limp along.

I am not from the VAD squad. I am a DVD player. There is a difference.

Hare Krsna

ys

BM

Whats the VAD squad doing here, anyway. Why nnot the other curreent thread.

 

Anyway, ISKCON used the ploy of VAD to exert egomaniacal control over others. This way, they can openly discriminate against those not in their clique just as they have pracrticed open mysogeny over the years. I have no problem understanding VAD, because this is a natural creation by Lord Brahma. But if you have kali cela deciding who is brahmana, who gets the guns, who counts the money, and who are the lower class, I dont call them vaisnavas, I call them british. They have no concept of VAD, they are expert in the caste system. And the reformers are no different, because they are the followers of the great TKG.

 

So, we are really not even sudras, so we should all shut up according to some's philosophy. Again, I see lots of soundbites, bits and pieces from the prabhupada said crew, but no one has a grasp on what VAD is. It is a natural creation of Lord Brahma, and if someone has natural propensity to act as brahmana, an esteemed advisor of all members of society, yet has no political pull with a materialistic society thet bears the name of Srila Prabhupada, such a person does the dishes and mops the floor, while bankers appointed by the same foundational leadership lose $100,000,000 in a span of 25 years and administrators cannot make decisions on clear cut criminal activity, you got just another perverted reflection of what was created by Lord Brahma.

 

Contrivance and wishful thinking does not make it in this program. Be yourself, dont pretend, dont accept false authority suddenly out of fanaticism, judge with your feet all you hear from, this is intelligence. The Vad Squad can play their DVD's all they want, but what they really need is to go back to the standing order of VCR (Vaisnava Cooperation Requirement).

 

I remember a greatly advanced disciple of Srila Prabhupada was told by a GBC that he was not bonafide. Srila Prabhupada told his sanyassi to speak, and chastized the GBC, saying, "You have no qualification to determine who is bonafide. I asked him to speak, and you question this decision, saying he is not bonafide? This is rascaldom". He later chastized this sanyassi who was reluctant to speak in the assembly of those who did not like him, saying "My opinion counts, the opinions of others do not." (Paraphrased discussion, but accurate.) So, if Srila Prabhupada asks me to be sudra, then that is what I am. He chastized me for pretending to be King Pariksit, but after the chastizement was over, he told me to become a real king. So am I a ksatriya? Maybe, but I didnt have to run to the gun store and bully all the bankers and workers demanding that they serve me. My mission is to become king, and I do this by understanding RAJAVIDYA. This is Vaisnavism, not polluted by materialistic kingdoms and false sense of control over others.

 

All the VAD squad and those with thousands of convenient quotes on their data bases should erase all of them, log out, and go read the intro to BGAII. This way, you get Prabhupada as he is, in context, and his quotes will no longer be a source of anxiety for yall. And leave his personal letters alone, unless they are addressed to you, of course. This is a violation of his human rights, reading his mail, etc. Where is this authorized?

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

Funny that you have such an easy time targeting the "prabhupada said crew" as the focus of your disappointment, yet go on immediately to PARAPHRASE Srila Prabhupada and claim ACCURACY, in such an ASSURING manner, as if you weren't just lambasting those who do this.

Suddenly me and CB, me who has lived outside Iskcon for 10 years and 6 weeks, out of the 6 weeks I peeked my head into a temple including various forays, and CB who rejected them with FORCE since 78 and has maintained his own home asrama since on Srila Prabhupada's vani,

Suddenly, we are part of that old bogeyman the VAD squad.

Get over it man, you got the wrong guys. You didn't really read everything we have posted, or catch our gravely accurate yet sincere and sometimes playful mood because you are too busy tripping on the demons of your past.

Take 2 asprin and log back in the morning, and we can continue like gentlemen?

Hare Krsna