Bhakta Devarsi

I don't know about the original question, but here's my take on ritviks:

 

In SCSMath we also allow ritvik initiations, and I have witnessed a few and I always felt my Gurudeva was present and the initiates were truly getting initiated by Srila Govinda Maharaj. I know and trust Sripad Janardan Maharaj is a conduit for Srila Govinda Mahara's mercy.

 

I think the whole issue with the ritvik system in ISKCON is trust. If devotees could feel they trusted all the ritviks I think they wouldn't have so much of an issue with it. More fundamantally if more devotees could feel they could trust the ISKCON Gurus in the disciplic succession from Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada there wouldn't be a need for the ritvik system, as there was no ritvik system I'm aware of following the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada (that I'm aware of). By saying this I'm not saying anyone is untrustworthy, but we know from experience that this is sometimes the case.

 

Please forgive any ignorance from me, as I don't really understand the internal affairs in ISKCON, but from the outside that is how it seems. All Glories to ISKCON and Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada!

Obeisances, Brajeshwara das.

If the person's authorized to be Ritvik reps by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada were to have followed all of his instructions, without deviation, that would have earned trust.

Free Will holds supreme. Accepting and Rejecting according to desire.

So take one's free will choice to desire the personal attributes of fame, adoration, and distinction

and combine that with a free will choice to decide to gain those attributes by one's own speculative material exploits, instead of gaining those attributes through surrendered devotional service...

You get Notoriety instead of Godly Fame.

You get Cheaters looking for victims.

Not Swami Prabhupada's fault. He took dictation from Sri Krsna. Sri Krsna saw who stepped up to the plate, gave them instructions according to the Unique time place and circumstance through his surrendered acharya, and ordered Ritvik initiation system to continue.

The fact that those disciples freely chose to break their disciple ship by not acting within the parameters their Acharya left them, is no poor reflection upon Swami Prabhupada's "methods" but instead an opportunity for us to feel more separation from the Lord, and to beg to understand a bit more about how we can fit into his plan after disobeying for so long, and maybe muster a little faith that if we followed STRICTLY things would be better and we'd be making better advancement.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj wisely and humbly took a lesson from his highly advanced and exalted Godbrother and friend, and showed by his exemplar how to recognize the position of a senior Acharya, and follow in their footsteps, Acharya in this case one who understands how the LORD sees things need to progress according to a unique time place and circumstance, and I believe Srila Sridhar Maharaj was no less than such an Acharya before he "disappeared". He was able to honor his Guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhu, and still take Siksa from his advanced Godbrother. What vision. How Glorious.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

Hare Krsna

Please accept my obeisances Shakti Fan,

It appears you did not read the 2 QUOTES I mentioned in my post, both of which were from "Krsna", and together they imply his apparent premise.

Go ahead and reread it again carefully if you are intereted. I made no leaps of logic to come to any hasty conclusion.

ys

BD

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga,

I posted this as a response to something I read within the "Origin of Jiva thread, but it was off topic so I reproduce it here.....

"Krsna" said, "The rtviks and covered rtviks are having a field day with this apa-siddhanta-cum-mayavada conclusion."

And what Mayavada conclusion is this he refers to?

" It'a as preposterous as saying that a conditioned soul can attain pure love for God simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books and not take diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru."

So perhaps "Krsna" can enlighten us as to how Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj would, if asked today, justify the fact (in the public record for all to see) that for at least a full year before his disappearance, he didn't even know the karmi names, or new spiritual names, let alone the faces and character, of most all of the new aspirants who became his initiated disciples during that time.

He had already implemented a system by which the recommendations by temple presidents were handled by middle men, under his authorization, who did everything including choosing names, entering them into Srila Prabhupada's disciple boodk, chanting on beads, and granting the go ahead for the agni hotra.

According to Krsna's statement, Srila Prabhupada's choice of use of Ritvik priests at that time was apa-sampradaya, and that the new disciples were not getting Diksa initiation from a bona-fide guru.

And of course this is the type of reasoning many use when taking another step into the realm of chaos by saying that somehow, the Mahabhagavat Acharya Nityanandavesha Avatara is no longer present, his Murti is just a statue with no capability of meaningful interaction with a jiva disciple in a conditioned material body, and CERTAINLY no one can get Diksa initiation from him, even if he said it was possible and ordered a ritvik system himself!

So I leave open some possibility that "Krsna" is the Supreme Lord Himself, identifying himself by his proper name, and is ready to reveal another layer of his mystery of the Acharya's lila through the internet.

So please, show us what you've got. Reconcile this blatant and obvious contradiction made by your Senapati Bhakta. Don't leave us hanging.

y.s.

BD

I deleted this post and it is now under it's own topic called "response to "Krsna" regarding initiation".

Sriman Anadi wrote,

These statements of yours root in a logical mistake.<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>

The issue was/ is not that the mercy needs a cause, <O:P></O:P>

But getting mercy needs a cause. The guru is there, and shastra explains that he is Krishna kripa, but not everybody gets guru, not everybody gets this Krishna kripa.

Only the ones that in a certain life attained that qualification.

And Krishna does not force sukriti on anyone. And in this connection He says that He doesn't favor anyone, He is equal to all, up to the point, one starst to worship Him.<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

The mercy is always there, but <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1:PLACE>Krishna</ST1:PLACE> does not force mercy on somebody.

So one must qualify to get His mercy. Not that the mercy would be not available, but you must have some sukriti, which qualifies one to look for the mercy, to pray for the mercy.<O:P></O:P><O:P></O:P>

 

The more you qualify, the more mercy you can get, this is sadhana bhakti.

 

<O:P></O:P>

The point where you say one must have some sukriti, which qualifies one to look for the mercy, to pray for the mercy, is the part where you deny the cause of the Sukriti.

The Sukriti comes unbidden, and is thus the first manifestation of Sri Krsna's mercy in our lives, and we were not qualified in any way to receive it except to be a lost bewildered part and parcel of Sri Krsna.

It is forced on us, while our free will remains in tact. Sorry, but if you really are into this philosophy you might as well get used to its ultimately inconceiveable nature. Because what I just said IS definitive, yet can still be expanded upon and glorified, just not diminished by calling some integral aspect of that comprehensive truth, the whole and correct truth itself.

Hare Krsna

<O:P></O:P>

In the same way that at one time we were just as unaware as the people at the football game hearing us chant harinama of what was GOING TO HAPPEN in the future because of that ajnata sukriti...

They received mercy and it was not because they deserved it by standing there buying their 3rd hot dog. Its cause was transcendental. Thus causeless by MATERIAL CALCULATION. The cause is Krsna's love for his long lost part an parcel. What else?

So Lord Krsna as Supersoul has taken note of their good fortune to have received causeless mercy, and is now with the help of the demigods arranging a future meeting place whereby those blessed souls will meet Sri Guru externally, maybe first through a book, then through some more direct intimate association with a sadhak perhaps, who knows.

Point is, the phrase That by Krsna's mercy one gets Guru is perfect. The chanting party on harinam is a manifestation of Sri Krsna's mercy, the person hearing is unaware, unconscious of what ajnata sukriti is being developed by passive hearing, or maybe joking later with a friend about those "hare Krishnas", and from that moment, Krsna's mercy sets Grace into motion, and that person eventually gets Guru.

So nice

Hare Krsna

The productive consideration of how to apply the term Karmi properly is one thing.

Why beat around the bush? It is just plain unreasonable to say that a word which has many levels of meaning is inaccurately if the speaker does not go on to speak of all the definitions and ramifications of the words usage every time they use it wanting to refer to one shade or another of the total definition.

On one level Karma means fruitive work. It is a complete and accurate statement to convey the point to the one or more people who were actually listening submissively at that time. Perhaps out of a whole group, there were 1 or 2 aurally receptive, and they needed to simply equate their fruitive working with Karma.

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada preached to a whole range of persons, from the most intellectually astute to the most destitute of mental ability.

Please try and understand this simple thing.

Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna

Dear Anadi,

I liked Shakti Fan's answer to my post to you, and saw that I misread what your "elucidation" quote was actually saying. So I just dropped it.

But an inner voice said there was something behind even that.

So from your reply to me, I will just post this one sentence.

"Well, this definition of karma is not accurate, and may be quite confusing. "

You wrote this in reference to a statement by Srila Prabhupada.

Your subsequent analysis of the various forms of karma, dealt with through dharma or adharma and thus akarma vikarma etc. while probably being a techinically precise exposition is no evidence of what you claim, inaccuracy.

It is an incomplete definition but that is different, and wherever you got that quote from, I am certain that in that moment the necessity was such that His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami used an abbreviated and general definition of karma in order to make a point with someone who wasn't prepared to make the distinctions of the deeper levels of meaning just yet.

Perhaps if you would make the attempt yourself, left your village alone and go to a mleccha foreign place pennyless to preach and convert, you wouldn't be such a nitpicker of a MahaBhagavat Acharya's techniques.

Caution, here be dragons.

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga

Anadi wrote

"They must stand the proof against revealed writings"

If someone is claiming that one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings, that charge ought to be backed up with some principle example.

After all this is a spiritual discussion , innuendo or unsubstantiated allegation are both counter to our goals here.

Hare Krsna