Bhakta Devarsi

I am witnessing the amazing Kriyas going on in the minds of all who thought they knew something. They are spouting all sorts of gibberish, winking and nodding at their cronies, and then proclaiming that what they are ACTUALLY doing is just making fun of and mocking a couple bhaktas who are actually speaking clearly and backing up everything they say with the words of a Great Acharya, but this is lost on these squirming fellows who claim the 2 bhaktas are simply... spouting all sorts of gibberish and being cliquish.

Classic, psychological projection in the face of reality, even the mundane scientists have figured this one out. And yes I was a Psych major. long ago.

I would say that THIS is humorous, but I am not so insensitive. It is tolerable though, and I appreciate the purifcation behind it. Ha Ha. Lot's of fun, I have mud in my eye too, blah blah, now lets sober up and look like men before Ravana and his blue clad posse start closing down the main arteries and putting us in bread lines.

Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna

Recently, a devotee on this forum told me that whenever a real Gaudiya Vaisnava uses the word "Bhakti" they are only speaking of Pure Bhakti or Shuddha Bhakti, or else they would use other words to qualify it, like Jnana-misra-bhakti, or Mixed Bhakti, etc. He used so many arguements to back up his conception, and it flat out made no sense to me intuitively or logically, and I said so.

Now here we have HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami apparently caught in the act!! Is he a "real" Gaudiya Vaisnava?

Purport: Adi 4:21-22

In the Caitanya-caritamrta three kinds of devotional service are described-namely, bhakti (ordinary devotional service), suddha-bhakti (pure devotional service) and viddha-bhakti (mixed devotional service).

When devotional service is executed with some material purpose, involving fruitive activities, mental speculations or mystic yoga, it is called mixed or adulterated devotional service. Besides bhakti-yoga, the Bhagavad-gita also describes karma-yoga, jnana-yoga and dhyana-yoga. Yoga means linking with the Supreme Lord, which is possible only through devotion. Fruitive activities ending in devotional service, philosophical speculation ending in devotional service, and the practice of mysticism ending in devotional service are known respectively as karma-yoga, jnana-yoga and dhyana-yoga. But such devotional service is adulterated by the three kinds of material activities.

For those grossly engaged in identifying the body as the self, pious activity, or karma-yoga, is recommended. For those who identify the mind with the self, philosophical speculation, or jnana-yoga, is recommended. But devotees standing on the spiritual platform have no need of such material conceptions of adulterated devotion. Adulterated devotional service does not directly aim for love of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore service performed strictly in conformity with the revealed scriptures is better than such viddha-bhakti because it is free from all kinds of material contamination. It is executed in Krsna consciousness, solely to please the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Those who are spontaneously devoted to the Lord and have no aims for material gain are called attracted devotees. They are spontaneously attracted to the service of the Lord, and they follow in the footsteps of self-realized souls. Their pure devotion (suddha-bhakti), manifested from pure love of Godhead, surpasses the regulative principles of the authoritative scriptures. Sometimes loving ecstasy transcends regulative principles; such ecstasy, however, is completely on the spiritual platform and cannot be imitated. The regulative principles help ordinary devotees rise to the stage of perfect love of Godhead. Pure love for Krsna is the perfection of pure devotion, and pure devotional service is identical with spontaneous devotional service.

Flawless execution of regulative principles is exhibited in the Vaikuntha planets. By strictly executing these principles one can be elevated to the Vaikuntha planets. But spontaneous pure loving service is found in Krsnaloka alone.

...seeing Krsna in the Dead is skillful Krsna consciousness.

 

By the way Braj...in early 93' while I was having a bit of look around at the big wide world...I ended up in San Francisco (then my desired spiritual home). Somehow, somewhere, saw Jerry in concert in a big outdoor stadium. Enjoyed that alot.

Shoreline Amphitheater. I was there in 93. Very nice crowd, Awesome shows. I miss those days, footloose and fancy free spiritwalking around the PNW.

Talk about a community vibe, and the family are nomads. Its all in the attitude really.

Can anyone recommend any good transcendentally- focused movies? I know some will be totally opposed to the idea, but hey, I'm definitely not a surrendered soul and my wife wants to sit with me and watch a movie regularly. She isn't very inclined to spiritual life so I'd like some recommendations on movies that may be good just from a God-consciousness platform, to help open her heart up a bit. I doubt I'll get her to sit through a Hindi movie unless there is Bollywood-type dancing etc so please keepo that in mind.

 

Anyway, I know it is nonsense but you have to start somewhere. I had blooped out for a long time, gotten married to a woman that wasn't on that trip, and can't really impose Krishna Consciousness forcefully on her. She is a good person and just needs some gentle encouragement.

The first one that came to mind was a comedy called Bruce Almighty which starred Jim Carrey. I did not see but a few scenes, but I know it was about God.

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranaga.

According to a very nice Guru, HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Lord Krishna asks us to surrender concocted dharma or concocted religion.

In the conversation below, in which he is clear and unequivocal, Srila Prabhupada relays that true dharma or sanatana dharma is the real religion and that this famous verse from the Bhagavad Gita, Bg. 18.66 "Sarva Dharman parityajna mam ekam saranam vraja" equals rejecting concocted dharma and surrendering unto Krsna, to which he comments "So take THAT dharma"

And what is THAT dharma?

He says it is the eternal dharma of the soul or Sanatana Dharma.

He then soon after equates Sanatana Dharma with VARNASRAMA DHARMA.

I have highlighted the major points in this conversation which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Surrendering directly to Krsna is accomplished by following Srila Prabhupada's exhortations to follow real dharma or varnasrama dharma.

Civilization and Transcendence, Ch. 3 Concocted Religion.

Srila Prabhupada: This understanding is wanted. Krsna is eternal, we are eternal, and the place where we will live with Him and exchange our feelings—that is eternal. And the system which teaches this eternal system of reciprocation—that is called sanatana-dharma, the eternal religion. It is meant for everyone.

Pusta Krsna: How can people follow sanatana-dharma on a practical, daily basis?

Srila Prabhupada: How are we doing it? Is it not practical? Krsna requests, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru: "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, and offer your obeisances to Me." Where is the impracticality? Where is the difficulty? And Krsna promises, mam evaisyasy asamsaya: "If you do this, you'll come to Me. Without any doubt you'll come to Me." Why don't you do that?

Later Krsna requests, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [bg. 18.66] "Give up all varieties of concocted religion and simply surrender to Me." This is practical religion. Just surrender to Krsna and think, "I am a devotee of Krsna, a servant of Krsna." Take this simple approach. Then everything will be immediately done. Real dharma, real religion, means dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam: [sB 6.3.19] what God says, that is dharma. Now, God says, "give up all this concocted dharma and just surrender unto Me." So take that dharma.

Why don't you take Krsna's instruction? Why do you go outside His instruction? That is the cause of all your troubles. You do not know the difference between this sanatana-dharma, the real, eternal religion, and your concocted dharma. If you take to some false religious system, then you suffer. But if you take to the real religious system, then you'll be happy.

Of course, nowadays India, like the rest of the world, has also given up the real religious system—sanatana-dharma, or varnasrama-dharma. In India they have accepted a hodgepodge thing called "Hinduism." So there is trouble. Everywhere, but in India especially, people should know that the real religion is this Vedic system. Vedic religion means varnasrama-dharma. Krsna says—God says—catur-varnyam maya srstam: [bg. 4.13] "For spiritual and material progress, the four occupational divisions of society have been set up by Me." So that is obligatory, just as the state law is obligatory. You cannot say, "I don't accept this law." No. You have to accept it if you want to have a happy life. You cannot become an outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished.

Now, God says, maya srstam: "This varnasrama system is given by Me." So how can we refuse to follow it? that means we are denying the real religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam: [sB 6.3.19] real dharma, real religion, means the order given by God. And God says, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: "For the proper management of human society, I have created these four social divisions, based on people's qualities and actions." So you have to accept it.

Pusta Krsna: This would be the prescription for all people?

Srila Prabhupada: For everyone. At the head of the social body there must be the intelligent class of men, who will give advice; then there must be the administrative and protective class, the farming and mercantile class, and the laboring class. This is all given in the Bhagavad-gita: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra.

But when you fully surrender to Krsna, you can give up all the regulations pertaining to these four social classes. That is why Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya: [bg. 18.66] "In the ultimate issue, My instruction is to give up all religious formularies"—including even Vedic formularies—"and simply surrender to Me.Brahmana-dharma,ksatriya-dharma,""Hindu dharma," this dharma, that dharma—give all these up and simply surrender to Krsna, because the ultimate aim of dharma is to come to Krsna.

Hare Krsna

Sorry Prabhu, I got what you and he were saying a bit mixed up:

 

Sorry, good point about the cult of Bhakti (pure and or otherwise), but of course I was relying on the alternative, ie. mundane personality cult (however humanitarian or righteous it may be)

 

I know what you mean about trying to keep up.

 

That is why the nitpicky technical arguements by the self-styled pundits which detract from the substance of the discussion are nothing but a nuisance and distraction. This medium is imperfect, and I should look on the bright side that some genuine sharing of ideas takes place amidst the madness.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

 

You'll notice this was what I thought he was saying, but it was a quote from you. This thread is getting too long to keep track of.

 

BTW, speaking of cults, the CC has many instances where it says 'The cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu' and a swami I know would skip over the 'c' word when reading from the CC.

Hare Krsna CB.

You were probably compiling those passages when I posted my answer.

I only posted the highlights, but it seems that we were "on the same page"

Jaya Prabhupada!

Speaking of universities.

I am up for helping to establish the Varnasrama College as Srila Prabhupada requested.

Therefore those who have a fighting mood can be encouraged, (in case they aren't prepared to endeavor upon pure brahminical training at the age of 35 years old and counting).

They can be encouraged to use their fighting spirit and mundane anger in the Service of the Lord, via serving to help with organization and protection of the Krsna Conscious Sankirtana movement.

The more they read and associate with Srila Prabhupada's vani, and staunch disciples of his, the more they will NATURALLY TEND to use their anger to defend Srila Prabhupada's Vani, and the well being of his disciples, fighting on their behalf in many ways.

Srila Prabhupada says that it is ok to be on the material platform and we should be fully Krsna Conscious while doing it.

Varnasrama College. Not just for Brahmanas anymore.

Varnasrama University. Why not?, it means the same thing approximately, no need to be so fanatic that we have to sweat the little things.

No fighting?

Only the Uttama adhikari knows if someone with a Ksyatria spirit can change their guna in this lifetime. For me, someone wants to fight, let their be a program to test their resolve, see if that is really a mood they can maintain. If they start going soft are more attracted to arotik and reading, perhaps it is time to bump em up.

cc madhya 19.152 translation :"When a person receives the seed of devotional service, he should take care of it by becoming a gardener and sowing the seed in his heart. If he waters the seed gradually by the process of śravana and kirtana [hearing and chanting], the seed will begin to sprout.

cc madhya 158 translation: “Sometimes unwanted creepers, such as the creepers of desires for material enjoyment and liberation from the material world, grow along with the creeper of devotional service. The varieties of such unwanted creepers are unlimited.”

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

cc madhya 159 translation: "Some unnecessary creepers growing with the bhakti creeper are the creepers of behavior unacceptable for those trying to attain perfection, diplomatic behavior, animal-killing, mundane profiteering, mundane adoration and mundane importance. All these are unwanted creepers.”

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

PURPORT: There is a certain pattern of behavior prescribed for those actually trying to become perfect. In our Krsna consciousness movement we advise our students not to eat meat, not to gamble, not to engage in illicit sex and not to indulge in intoxication. People who indulge in these activities can never become perfect; therefore these regulative principles are for those interested in becoming perfect and going back to Godhead..........All these obstructions have been described in this verse as unwanted creepers. They simply present obstacles for the real creeper, the bhakti-latā. One should be very careful to avoid all these unwanted things. Sometimes these unwanted creepers look exactly like the bhakti creeper. They appear to be of the same size and the same species when they are packed together with the bhakti creeper, but in spite of this, the creepers are called upaśakhā. A pure devotee can distinguish between the bhakti creeper and a mundane creeper, and he is very alert to distinguish them and keep them separate.

CC Madhya 19.161

"As soon as an intelligent devotee sees an unwanted creeper growing beside the original creeper, he must cut it down instantly. Then the real creeper, the bhakti-latā, grows nicely, returns home, back to Godhead, and seeks shelter under the lotus feet of Krsna.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

PURPORT

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

If one is misled by unwanted creepers and is victimized, he cannot make progress back to Godhead. Rather, he remains within the material world and engages in activities having nothing to do with pure devotional service. Such a person may be elevated to the higher planetary systems, but because he remains within the material world, he is subjected to the threefold material miseries.

It is said that one must be empowered to preach nama sankirtan. Does one have to be empowered to preach DVD?

The word Daivi should be a clue.

Of course you know this means war!

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/music/clipse...002NQE001020/1

/ref=mu_sam_ra001_020/701-6021320-0283539

It has been a war on maya from the very start for me.

She has little hold on my mind now (by his mercy), having been trained to see the world through Srila Prabhupada's eyes, but that doesn't mean I can't see how others are being blinded in the same way I was.

And I am a little less charming and tactful wading into a group of older disciples with a wake up call, because, as you say, it is a war. I just expect those who will get it will see it plainly, and those who don't will want to argue to keep their false position.

Then their may be some legitimate questions from those in between, but a question in humble submission to a search for the truth has a much different ring then a thoughtless arbitrary challenge by those who aspire to be the Top Dupe of the Cyber Sandbox.

Hare Krsna

Hare Krsna

I am just of a different opinion than you, that is all. You said anadi was wrong, and I disagreed. It wasn't hard to do at all. If it were anyone else I would have also made the same remark. It's not about you.

 

I actually don't want an argument at all, but since anadi is just like the rest of us, sometimes wrong, sometimes right, I think it is important to show him due respect when appropriate.

Well Sir, if you carefully read what I wrote and the context, you would see that he doesn't have a leg to stand on, and in this respect he was just looking for a place to proclaim his lofty intellectual understanding of Bhakti, in order to try and dilute the function of DVD in our minds, by claiming it to be inferior to Pure Bhakti, when that was never an issue, and a claim was never made that DVD trumps pure Bhakti, no innuendo or implication either.

If you were to read carefully, which you almost promised to do a few days ago after being caught skimming and grinning, you would see it for what it is, a diversion and attack as if saving someone from the horrors of dabbling in impure Bhakti.

Ouch.

Man: "Hey, I heard you are practicing Bhakti Yoga these days."

Friend who has read a little: "Well no, you don't have to practice yoga to be a Bhakta because bhakti is Shuddha Bhakti as everyone knows." Now if you had said karma misra bhakti yoga....

See what I mean?

Leave the cult. Run away as fast as you can. It eats at your ability to see the simple things.

Hare Krsna

To recap some highlights.

But we are not going to be nishkincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bahya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way.

Our duty. For all those not yet fully attracted and following in the footsteps of Vraja Prema Bhaktas.

Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.

 

Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, “I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srishtam [bg. 4.13]. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.

He is quite simply preaching to incredibly puffed up people. He is giving the full siddhanta, while at the same time in a tactful way saying, SATS OL BUDDY, YOUR INTELLECT MAY BE A PREMA BHAKTA BEYOND THE VARNASRAMA SYSTEM, BUT JUST PREACH IT ANYWAY FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS, IT MUST BE DONE.

Just to be clear, you are saying chanting the Maha Mantra makes the unwanted creepers stronger so we can identify them and pull them out? This makes sense to me because I know when I moved into bramachari ashram some tendencies that seemingly were gone became much stronger and I became aware that I has certain problems. It also makes me think of the analogy of boiling water, that the impurities come to the surface under the heat of devotional life.

Well, that wasn't what I said, but it makes perfect sense as a logical consequence, so it is a nice insight.

This is such a wonderful question I think because in the Caitanya Caritamrita, Srila Prabhupada tells us that we need to be able to identify the unwanted creepers growing in our heart's garden which compete with the Bhakti Lata Bija and its devotional creeper.

He says that chanting the Maha Mantra will water these creepers and make them stronger.

He says that we are each in charge of identifying them AND PULLING THEM OUT.

I have the chapter and verse buried somewhere on my computer, but you get the gist. I will post that later, but Great Thread!

Hare Krsna

This thread is on the question of the MANDATORY following of the four reg.s in relation to devotional chanting and leading a devotional life and not on your DVD project fellows.

 

There is no purifacatory precess mandated before one can chant Hare Krsna. Varnashrama or no varnashrama, is not a consideration.

 

To further the progress towards suddha nama a lifestyle of simple living and high thinking become important. And again for that no formal varnashrama considerations apply.

See, what could have been a gentle reminder that we have strayed a bit off topic, is just turned to an opportunity to promote the Theist sampradaya, who's philosophy holds that all a person needs to be told is to Live simply and think highly, and Srila Prabhupada wasted years of his Lila describing in detail how this can be applied through understanding Varna and Ashram guna and karma.

And not to mention that the fact of what is mandatory exactly has been addressed, and some new information seems to be coming to light, but why let that stop the transcendental competition? Just ignore it and try to rain on the parade of Srila Prabhupada's disciples disseminating his vani.

Kinda risky I'd say.

Hare Krsna

PS, by the way, referring to preaching DVD as "our" project so sarcastically is another risky venture, as it was originally the project of some of the most elevated personalities to waltz through the backyard of your conditioned mind. Lest ye forget. According to the record it is THEIR project, I am helper.

I think you are mistaken Prabhu. I disagree with anadi on plenty of matters, but this one I believe he is 100% correct. If Bhakti were milk, you would say 'milk' when referring to it. If it were mixed with an impurity, say chocolate, you would say 'chocolate milk'. If it were made into butter would you still call it milk?

 

In SCSMath when we talk about Bhakti, we aim at the highest thing, we aren't talking about a watered down or mixed version of the thing, it is the highest thing we strive for, that we worship. I believe this is true in ISKCON as well. We are specific when referring to mixed Bhakti and usually are describing that mixed situation if we are speaking about it at all.

A discerning person would read the above and see how you just want an arguement.

Because of course just tripping over yourself to disagree with me and to try to show my faults you forget the original statement I was contending.

When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, not aropa siddha bhakti, or sanga siddha bhakti...

And in the context of this discussion, this elitist tripe becomes obvious.

Who is this neophyte to say that when a Vaisnava speaks he "always" uses the word "Bhakti" to mean Pure bhakti but

when speaking of unpure bhakti, the (Gaudiya) Vaishnava don’t say bhakti,

but he defines them as a type of unpure bhakti he speaks of.

This might be or might not be true, and I perhaps even agree it would be less confusing for talk amongst educated brahmanas and ksyatrias. But please, what kind of authority makes these types of statements hmmmm..?/?

I didn't see any scriptural injunction that this is how it is for Vaisnavas.

And he does it with so many other things like this.

So, as you may see the goal – prayojana is not daivi varnashram dharma, but premA, and the means to attain the goal, abhideya is bhakti bhajana, not daivi varnashram dharma.

While this is true that one aspect of abhideya is bhajana, but he then goes to use a true statement to try and negate DVD in a way that cannot be upheld by logic. We have provided plenty of quotes showing that Srila Prabhupada and all past Acharyas consider DVD as one of the means to attain our goal, krishna prema.

But he will come back and argue that technically when bhava is reached there is no longer DVD.

But this shows profound ignorance as to the relationship between Vaidhi Bhakti and DVD and just attempts to minimize the very practice the person should be engaging in (Vaidhi and DVD) in order to quit being so offensive in glorifying something above one's realization, and minimizing the "impure" stages of Bhakti.

Aiming at the highest thing is not the same as saying The definition of Bhakti is "Suddha Bhakti".

Just more elitist nonsense, thus the phrase "get a job" because that is going to be the last resort for all the sudras pretending to be uttama adhikaris.

Hare Krsna

Beggar said,

But also Srila Saraswati Thakur established a society of vaisnava brahmanas and it seems apparent from the history of ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada followed suit. Yet the mid -1970s saw falldowns of sannyasis and big managers of epic and farcical proportions. Now the evidence which you an others have put forth shows that he began to adjust by trying to make ISKCON a society led by vaisnava brahmana's which would also take into account the other three varnas, who are also attracted to Krsna Consciousness on various levels. So after the first stages of Prabhupada's ISKCON experiment, as a spiritual scientist he began to adjust according to the results. Yet, its really how he saw the situation which led to his actions and words. He was seeing the Truth of the situation and that should be an example for all, despite their affiliation. In this way everyone in all the camps must proclaim from on high, "Ich bin ein ISKCONer!"

That is one way to look at it.

There is no such thing as a "society" without head arms belly and legs, so the idea of a society of brahmanas is a misnomer. As long as people around here seem to like to be techinical.

And to say that Srila Prabhupada followed suit, and then began realizing that he needed to add the other three varnas does not do his transcendental intelligence justice.

He knew what he was doing, who was before him, despite what people imagine. He was working with who Krsna sent him, and he appeared to be establishing his society from the head down, but he had ksyatrias vaisyas and sudras assisting him from 1966, and he knew them as that, whether he gave them sanyassa for preaching or not.

It is only us who are waking up to all this now, and tend to ascribe some definition to what these Acharyas were doing, and tend to make no sense doing so.

Reading and studying the glories of the divine servitors is enjoyable, and a healthy spiritual practice. And sharing about them is also fun. I feel Their glories are a 'reality' to be held high above our heads, not just as 'a pipedream of my speculation'. I agree with your quote Bhakti Devarsi. And I can understand you posting such comments considering your special interest in Varnashrama Dharma.

 

I guess at this level of my realization there is dependency upon faith in scripture. I do not think that sharing what one is understanding from his personal reading, is speculating as such. But sure, maybe because I am not realized to a high degree, my understandings may be speculation. I will let you be the judge of that.

 

Please forgive me if it appears that I am trying to portay myself in a high position, as being one realized in the nature of the service of these Divine Personalities. Prabhu, I desire my heart to contain nothing of that intention and to keep it simple. I am sorry you possibly perceived such things. Faith comes by reading literature such as Caitanya-caritamrta, and it grows by sharing about it. That is all.

 

My desires in discussing the divine service of our Lords, was an attempt to bring a focal point of dialogue between Yoga Kriya Prabhu and myself. This was the intention.

 

All glories to the divine servitors!

I hear you, sorry if I was a little ornery, it is possible for an elevated soul to simply read and receive the proper understandings of what is between the lines directly into their mind by the grace of Guru. Even something as inconceivable as a Supremely perfect mood, as opposed to less nectarean moods.

I once delved into such at the prompting of a big big Sahajya, and I soon realized it was inconceivable even if I did get a glimpse. I soon realized that for such mediations to have any lasting value, it would best be something to focus on continually. As in when I am actually retired from any material life in mixed devotion, and I could fit it into my private meditations when I am not preaching and pushing the Sankirtana movement.

I like to honor the impetus to attend to such wonderful lofty endeavors, by suggesting the venue by which such endeavors will bear the most lasting fruits, and I have come to see for myself the universality of the injunctions to take things one step at a time if you are approaching as nitya-baddha with deep conditioning.

If I sound like a big brother, that is ok. As long as I am not being an unsympathetic and condescendinb big brother. I hope my care shows through, especially to the more mature devotees in this Cyber sanga.

Please forgive me if I pricked you.

All glories to the assembled Vaisnavas.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

Lecture BG. 9.3 Melbourne 4/21/76

 

 

The Vedic principle is... People are... Everyone is in ignorance because the evolution is coming from the lower species of life, and in Western countries the Darwin’s theory of evolution is very prominent, and they believe that man is coming from monkey. Of course, the Vedic sastra also says the birth of human being are from three sources: one from the cow, the other from the lion, and the other from the monkey. The “monkey” word is there. Those who are coming in the sattva-guna, modes of goodness, their last birth is as cow. And those who are coming through the rajo-guna, their last birth is lion. And those who are coming through the tamo-guna, their last birth is monkey. Then there are. We have explained many times. The lower animals, less than the human being, they’re eight million forms.

 

CB-r

I was a monkey who was quite impressed by the Lion, but really enjoyed the company of the Cows, and even used to ride around on the back of one as we became friends, I would get him foodstuffs he was not used to as a treat, and he would enable me to get away from all my monkey business for a while and just chill in the fields with all his mellow friends.

One symptom of Messiah syndrome is that every criticism is taken in the spirit of Martyrdom. The feeling of persecution is seen as a validation of the Messiah status.

 

The Hare Krsna mantra is the present Messiah for the planet. The Lord Himself appearing as His name. To place the focus on getting people to follow the four regs. is misplaced. First chanting and then the power to overcome baser sense desires will follow. Without the name being held in it's proper position preaching the four regs. is just like spitting into the wind.

Who is placing the focus on "getting" people to follow the 4 regs? A statement which DIRECTLY implies the neglecting of the injunction to chant the holy name.

Who is not holding the name in its proper position. Among healthy spiritual people, such accusations are usually upheld by evidence or considered baseless, and such expositors are certainly wearing their own saliva all over their face.

Perhaps a POSITIVE contribution would be in order. Alot of hot air on that positivity thread I'd say judging from this Negative attack cloaked in awe and reverence of Sri Nama Prabhu.

You make a logical mistake:

The statement

"When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti"

doesn’t say that unpure bhakti doesn’t exist, but

when speaking of unpure bhakti, the (Gaudiya) Vaishnava don’t say bhakti, but he defines them as a type of unpure bhakti he speaks of, or when a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of the definition of bhakti he refers to shuddha bhakti, otherwise he says explicitly what kind of impure bhakti he wants to speak of.

This is the logic of a neophyte, allow me to explain.

A neophyte wants to be part of an exclusive section. He needs this phenomenon in order to satisfy the material desires of feeling part of a group, having some special fame, being able to identify with something larger than his self.

This subtle sense gratification leads to what Anadi just said.

When a Gaudiya Vaisnava speaks of the definition of Bhakti, he may refer to shuddha bhakti only.

But as you just admitted in your post, the FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti would have to include all of the forms of Bhakti, including the impure forms.

If asked to give the definition of PURE BHAKTI, that would be one thing, but that is not what we were talking about, you read that (pure) part into it because of your obsession with being considered pure, and the exclusivity that comes with the fact that so many others obviously are not.

For Vaidhi Bhakti is bhakti, or else the word Bhakti would not be a part of the compound word which made up the term.

So Anadi's speculation (not backed up by any quote from an authority) that a Gaudiya Vaisnava defines Bhakti only as the Purest form Suddha Bhakti is simply wrong. He is just using this contrived arguement in order to try to be correct about something. Wanting to be right. And challenging me based on a flimsy and outrageous conclusion.

If moderators were made for anything, I believe their best duty would be to channel someone like Anadi to a portion of the forum for recalcitrant neophytes who have yet to understand their own human self, but wants to condemn the perfectly valid points made by his seniors, just to get some undeserved attention.

Please already Anadi, get a job.

Hare Krsna

Why doesn't that surprise me ?

 

Just kidding, I couldn't resist the joke , but it does make me think of my concerns that no certifiably crazy demoniac persons get in positions of power in your DVD movement. How this all will be implemented in your society will be interesting. What is the progress anyway, are you guys screaming at the wind or do you have actual traction, at least in Alachua?

It will be implemented more and more, the more people are inspired to focus on this subject when mentioned in the books because they think they can gain from understanding it.

It was already implemented. Srila Prabhupada had at least a skelleton crew of DVD, including himself as Cheif of each Varna, and at least a backbone crew who were more or less exemplifying their varnas. The ashram part was a little more sketchy, suffice to say most were by qualification bramacari or grhasta.

The movement of a majority of disciples into positions they were not qualified for, seeking power, etc., after he left diminished and diluted the presence of the healthy varnasrama aspect of the mission. Those qualified were pushed out.

So as I see it, it is simply a preaching effort. To convince people by Srila Prabhupada's own words how important it is for advancement for neophytes, how seriously his own desire was that we do it, and how little heirarchal interference there actually is in becoming DVD conscious along side your Krsna Consciousness. Just read and apply. And thats all a person needs to hear I believe, because once they HEAR, you can be sure they are being arranged by Sri Paramatma to be at the right place at the right time with the right people to live it out and realize it.

I am beginning to see some nice "coincidences" and serendipitous arrangements being made here in the Alachua area which are definitely fruit born from DVD preaching. For most devotees who are struggling to reconcile their material desires within a community where there is an undercurrent of shame and guilt for "not being on the highest transcendental platform like all the pure brahmins", and thus neglect and lack of opportunities, the DVD concept is something they can truly relate to in a practical way, as if a there could be a solution to their problems.

It is actually a sensitive subject over all and speaking of it can bring up alot of emotion for devotees, so I figure it is enough to just get someone's interest piqued, with a casual mention or short chat, and then point to Srila Prabhupada and get out of the way.

Jaya Prabhupada

Groundbreaking conversation.

Note this part.

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Hridayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription:

And there is another conversation where this same topic is mentioned and he says "not that we encourage this, but if they need, we give them facility."

Which implies being prepared to facilitate all comers according to the dictates of the acharya.

Devi Pujas and all.

Hare Krsna

Honestly, this is fun preliminary intellectual work, but before a person has released their mixed devotional tactics and become an unalloyed servant themselves, the realization of a Supreme mood of service amongst the eternally blissful pure servants of the Lord is but a pipe dream. And I know how fond both Siva's and Krsna's devotees are of this.

Perhaps a stronger emphasis on becoming a selfless servant within our varna and ashram obligations would quicken the possibility that someday we will actually internally renounce into unalloyed service ourselves, and all of the various moods of servitude will be naturally revealed through experience instead of informed speculation.

Hare Krsna