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Bhakta Devarsi

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Posts posted by Bhakta Devarsi


  1. Quote:

    <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

    Let's help each other step up and walk on a higher level.

    namaste

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    I am a newcomer and I thank each of you for your welcoming, sincere, pleasant, and Holy Spirit.

     

    We are all in this (lifetime) together, and I can use all the help I can get. :)

     

    Our hearts will rejoice in the hearing of Krsna's dealings with our sisters and brothers! Hear everything about Him, every grace given, every mercy bestowed, every mellow experienced, of every tear shed in separation. From every person, from every place, from every town, from every tradition, in every age.

     

    "Then they said to each other, "Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?" Luke 24:32

     

    :pray:

    Dear Theist,

     

    If you saw what I did not, and offended me, I forgive you. Please be at peace and let us both aim for that higher level you speak of and try not to sin against one another again.

     

    ys

     

    B.M.


  2.  

    You guys have your interpretation and I have mine. You can say I'm wrong, that's your right, but again I can see you two as being misguided myself. The Lord knows the truth, that's good enough for me.

     

    Interpretation?

     

    Very early on, I recommended that anyone who wants to understand their Varna and Ashram, read Bhagavad Gita, and the relevant quotes from the Bhagavatam, and they will be plenty informed. You see I have no personal interest in being "The Decider".

     

    Srila Prabhupada said...

     

     

    BG 16:1-3, Sruti means that one should hear from the authority. One should not construe some interpretation for his personal interest.

     

    Srila Prabhupada's conversations with his leaders are the purport to the purport on DVD. I have no need to interpret anything, it is all there in essence and in detail. However communicating this onto Internet forums with its letter/essay format, to those who haven't read the above, may give the appearance of interpretation, but it is simply translation.

     

    I feel like I fell for a trap, because some people, after being told to read the books, and after reading a few conversations requested my and Caturbahu das' take on how we are reading and seeing practical application of these things. I could have just reprinted Srila Prabhupada's words, but that was not what was called for, translation was the request. But suddenly those requesting the translation are so knowledgeable, I am accused of interpretation. Fool me once, shame on me.

     

    Convolution occurs when one interprets based upon logical fallacies of assumption and weak deduction; (Vows not equal to rules and regs), false dichotomies; (Iskcon = 1. initiated and 2. DVD college participants (noninitiated)); etc.

     

    That the Lord knowsthe truth is a given, but that does nothing for me. I need to go to his authority and hear all about it, so I can participate truly, and that seems to be a rare thing.

     

    Best wishes in your search for truth.

     

    Hari Bol

     

    ys

     

    BM


  3.  

    Your opinon has been defeated numerous times. Yet you still speak the same errorneous standards for ISKCON's DVD cosmology.

     

    CB-r

     

    Since the beginning of these varnashrama discussions, Brajeshwara dasa has admitted that he is not familiar with all the intricacies of what Srila Prabhupada wanted for Iskcon, admitted to skimming the evidence presented, yet still feels compelled to offer opinions. As a devil's advocate and foil for how not to understand DVD, this has worked quite well, but it is getting a bit redundant.

     

    It is a razor's edge. Be informed or be in bad form.

     

    Hare Krsna


  4. Oh my oh my.

     

    After such a well placed quote from Srila Prabhupada, so well highlighted and emphasised by Caturbahu dasa, what better than the guest pasting a quote from the CC, as if its existence defeats you and Srila Prabhupada, when that is the very conversation between our Lord and his highest confidant Sri Ramananda Raya that Srila Prabhupada is referring to and commenting on, which actually becomes a strong chastisement and then a direct order to the leaders of his society.

     

    "varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy."

    "It must be done."

     

    It is so sad that such people as Hari Sauri have convinced people such as Guest 23 that they are already so advanced like Ramananda Raya and Sri Haridas Thakur, that they can refute Srila Prabhupada's own directives to his disciples by cutting and pasting his translation from the CC. So sad, and I mean it.

     

    Just look at the challenging attitude of Hari Sauri.

     

    "Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible."

     

    In the context, after direct orders from Srila Prabhupada, this is said by Hari Sauri not in a mood of submissive inquiry, but in an attempt to directly refute the person who he calls his Spiritual Master.

     

    And then after the next statement from Srila Prabhupada, he directly refutes the whole import by stating AUTHORITATIVELY "So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that."

     

    And Srila Prabhupada deftly agrees with him, but then sticks this challenge to his challenger...

     

    "Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible."

    And then the coverup got serious when Rameshwara ordered Ameyatma dasa to hide the tape with the Vrndabana Varnasrama morning walks because "It will ruin everything".

     

    Srila Prabhupada was surrounded with ilk such as this most every day, and he handled them with such grace and aplomb, I could only dream of being a speck of dust at his lotus feet.

     

    Until then I will do my little thing and take my sword to the contingent that Lord Maya has sent to stifle the truth.

     

    Hare Krsna


  5.  

    Good luck with that.

     

    Oh, please, that is figurative in my ideal vision!

     

    When someone begins to speak without authority in your home and tell your children what to do in ways that contradict your disciplinary paradigm to a harmful extreme, you realize you made a poor choice in a guest, and ask him to leave.

     

    If you own the property, and carry a big stick, this is usually all that is required.

     

    Conversely, only a BIG Devotee with a VERY BIG STICK, can walk into one of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon temples and make some third rate professional reciter of the Bhagavatam get off the Vyasasana and hit the road.

     

    In leiu of my lack of empowerment in that regard, I choose the path the Lord lays out as an alternative.

     

    But don't think I am not laying down auxilary plans for the glorious day, 10 years or 100 years down the line, where such house cleaning will be the Joy of the Martial class.

     

    Hare Krsna


  6.  

    Another citation which I will post here, is acknowledgement of how VAD is a system for the MUNDANE world.

     

    This only tells half the story. It is a prescription for getting out of the mundane world as well, in conjunction with chanting the Maha-Mantra, and it actually supports our chanting of the Maha-Mantra by aiding us to chant it offensively.

     

    That said, I read where Srila Prabhupada wrote in a foreward or preface to his original Delhi production of the First canto in 3 parts, where he said the entire philosophy of Gaudiya Vaisnavism was contained in those three books.

     

    I wish I had saved that quote, because I have scoured the internet and cannot find it.

     

    It may actually be in the First book of the Delhi set. But that is out on loan, and inaccessible.

     

    So for a bunch of mudhas, how do we qualify to chant the name offenselessly, when it is obvious that we have begun and continue to waver between the reflection and the shadow of the name?

     

    Use the support system offered by the Lord and his Acharya, the one that is supposed to assist the name, the one that assists material minded people to come closer to goodness, and get the full benefit of the name.

     

    We are all disciples to the degree we are strictly following, and anyone from any varna may relate their honest experience with their sadhana of chanting and living in a devotional community (DVD), and if the person they are speaking to is receptive and not trying to flee the scene, they are acting as good as acharya.

     

    Such behavior is rare, but perfectly possible.

     

    Hare Krsna


  7.  

    Start your own mission. In the disciplic succession of Srila Prabhupada. Initiate devotees based on your understanding of his instructions. Find a devotee 'actor' brahman who agrees with you that you feel is qualified to be Acharya. Be your own acharya if need be. A small house in the country maybe, bring your families. Assign your varnas. Do your preaching. Practice what you preach.

     

    Already in the works before these topical threads were even posted on this forum. Conceptual, outline, and multi-lateral discussion and input from a small but dedicated group.

     

    But it is not our own. It is the perpetuation of the mission of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon, in spirit and eventually, practically, to the letter.

     

    Iskcon. Re formed.

     

    As to Beggars comments, consider who is a candidate to be empowered.

     

    A group of sincere disciples of Srila Prabhupada who follows his instructions as if they were all in all should do the trick. Pretenders to the throne will be allowed in for Arotik and Diety darshan, fed prasadam...

     

    And then their muzzles will be put back into place. LOL

     

    Hare Krsna


  8.  

    It does not mean that a sannyasi who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaishnava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that “Because I have taken sannyasa, therefore I cannot any more do anything.” If need be, he has to act as kshatriya. Or a sudra. It doesn’t matter.

     

     

     

    It does not mean that a sannyasi who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing.

     

    Just that the sannyasi who preaches is better at preaching. And there is a reason for this.

     

     

    "Their position as Vaishnava is the same."

     

    Though true, this is a broad and generous statement, as it is quite obvious the people he was speaking to were BEGINNERS. Neophyte Vaisnavas.

     

     

    "But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that."

     

    So for management, one goes to preach. In otherwords, who goes to preach is to be managed . So the manager ideally knows who is capable of preaching. And here we are not speaking only of Harinama sankirtana, or else the cleanser and engineer would have been included. He is referring to the somewhat more advanced Vaisnava who has the ability to do focused and directed preaching to target audiences. Srila Prabhupada initiated and managed many such preaching projects.

     

     

    "That should be there."
    Imperative Directive.

     

     

    "It is not that “Because I have taken sannyasa, therefore I cannot any more do anything."

     

    Most "sanyassins" seem only to abide this when they want to manage and have people wait on them. Seen it with my own eyes.

     

     

    "If need be, he has to act as kshatriya. Or a sudra. It doesn’t matter."

     

    Key words, IF NEED BE.

     

    To a thoughtful person, such a need would be considered either some type of emergency, or a response to a temporary displacement of personell, and therefore the decision by a Manager to manage to fit someone into another varna's role is out of TEMPORARY (IF) - NECESSITY (NEED), and NOT a permanent solution.

     

    Here the manager's ability is tested to right the situation as soon as possible for optimal functioning.

     

    While people still think in terms of managing organizations, Sri Krsna offers an institution where they may piously engage these skills to simultaneously aid and abet the Sankirtana movement, while purifying those tendencies from their consciousness.

     

    This is the dual purpose of DVD. It simply aids the process of advancing in Bhakti yoga, and was not considered an optional consideration for us by our Acharya.

     

    Hare Krsna


  9.  

    Krsna devotees have their sacrements intact. Everything offered to Krsna with love and devotion becomes a sacrement. Flowers are offered then passed around for everyone to smell what Krsna smelled. Flower garlands are changed on the Deities at regular times and then worn by devotees. They offer heat and light to Krsna and receive the prasadam. They offer foodstuff and eat the remnants.

     

    And the greatest sacrament is the Holy name itself. The devotees that are immersed in the practice are literally constantly bathing in sacrements.

     

    As far as plants giving spiritual experiences I would agree that many plant compunds can open up our awareness to sublter realms of experience and can even help us walk in different dimentions but those subtle worlds are still within the material matrix.

     

    And why did you choose cannabis over calamus in your translation. Calamus has been an herb used by yogis for thousands of years. They claim it purifys the subtle nervous system (nadis) and is a great aid to meditation. That would be more fitting for an annointing oil than cannabis which is rather crude in comparison and comes with a big dose of lethargy and confusion which are hardly spiritual in themselves.

     

    Above all Bhakti or love and devotion to the Lord is the greatest of all sacraments and which flows from our innermost being so is always accessable and is also unlimited and eternal.

    Ayurvedic doctrine considers Calamus root to be a remedy for the toxic effects of Cannabis Sativa (sometimes known as Ganja or marijhuana) upon the brain and the liver.

     

    Scientific evidence has shown that it reduces or eliminates entirely the soporific effects of Ganja, and experienced users report all side effects of Ganja mitigated or removed entirely by use of fresh calamus.

     

    Ayurveda cautions that only emotionaly HEALTHY and Mature individuals should utilize Cannabis for its long list of rejuvenative, supportive, and curative effects, and always with its detoxifier, Calamus root, lest malaise and confusion result.

     

    Distilled in oil, ghee preferably, is the cleanest and most appropriate form of usage of Cannabis Sativa for general healing purposes.

     

    Smoking is not advised unless one has the strength of mind of a Raja or better.

     

    Hare Krsna

     

    http://nepenthes.lycaeum.org/Plants/Acorus/calamus.html


  10.  

    I wasn't cheated either. I have no affiliation with iskcon or any other matha. Wish them the best but not affiliated.

     

    Actually, anyone who can contradict the blatant and redundant orders that a great Acharya like Srila Prabhupada made for the disciples in his institution.

     

    Anyone who would do so in public, amidst neophytes of that institution.

     

    Anyone who would post so many opinions largely without scriptural backing but on occasion USE Srila Prabhupada's words to make points contradictory to Srila Prabhupada's own preaching mission.

     

    That person has been cheated. By himself, and by "whoever" gave them instruction to act like this.

     

    And if I am 100% sure of anything, this is one of those times.

     

    And as far as the cherry picking out of context and word juggling going on with the term "Varnasrama College", it is sophomoric and already defeated by mountains of priorly stated evidence, in addition to at least 2 summaries of that evidence by the Bhaktatraveler, Caturbahu dasa, and myself, and it will be plenty suitable for any who really care about the HEALTHY continuation of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's mission.

     

    And by the way, I am proud to have received some very relevant instruction in spiritual life from Caturbahu das, Srila Prabhupada should be so fortunate that he would have 100's of those so dedicated to his vani and his alone.

     

    Even Theist makes a good point now and then, but the problem is only a Swan can scoop it up amidst the rest of his belligerent sophistry. But hey noones PERFECT, so Jaya NIMAI. Jaya NITAE. Jaya Prabhupada.

     

    ys

     

    Bhakta Mark


  11. From what I recall, noone around me was qualified to give me divya-jnana, and I was sincerely seeking because I had some realization of death and the temporary nature of material pleasure.

     

    It is my good fortune that Srila Prabhupada was inspired to appear before me and bless me with his total package.

     

    He still seems quite inspired, because he uses me to direct other people to him quite often.

     

    Circumstances are a whole lot different these days, but the principle is still the same, the external arrangement of how the most qualified and most inspired Acharya in town goes about appearing to people.

     

    Nice topic.

     

    Hare Krsna


  12.  

    So is the point of view of you two Bhaktas that the above quote is no longer valid or is it possible you have made a mis-calculation. Hopefully you remain open to the possibility of being wrong.

     

    My god man are you serious? Srila Prabhupada's own words show that he made exceptions to this rule! Black and white and captured on tape! He also said we will not encourage, but the point of the exercise is to understand the Acharya's mood, and the totality of his Vani on any subject.

    He later made the distinction, even going so far as to caution his disciples not to give just anyone brahmana initiation, especially "now that we are dividing up the society." And that for Sudras taking the 2nd means "recognized", and they follow the rules and regs of Sudra and will get perfection.

     

     

    Like I wish to see you two bhakta's renounce the idea that Srila Prabhupada wanted to stop the vows regarding the regulative principles for his disciples universally and allow some of they to kill animals and eat meat, but there is no way I can force you to accept what I am saying. I can post quotes like in post one but that is about all.

     

    Such exaggeration. If you can show anywhere where I suggested this I will stand corrected, but I already know you can't because I know myself and I also have been watching you speculatively misconstrue just about everything written by me on the subject, saying I live in a fantasy world. Who has lived at their computer for 10700 posts on just this forum, forget about all the others you participate in?

     

    You could force me easily to accept what you are saying, by showing where Srila Prabhupada defeats himself. I would accept that. But I have way to strong a grasp on chronology, prioritization of various forms of communication as evidence, and the multidimensions of preaching to neophytes to take an early general statement as law and reject later nuanced and pointed adjustments.

     

    Srila Prabhupada assumed that when he gave an order to be implemented by his leaders that they would follow the rule and live it in order to inspire others to follow, unless it was strictly a heirarchical thing. (Yes heirarchy, still with us in the material world Theist? need a pinch?) In that case it was, you tell those under your supervision to do this, and they are to agree, if not, they don't like my program and they must go elsewhere for instruction."

     

    I have had plenty of inner purification, I know how to approach people because I care about them. Spontaneously is best sometimes. But I was looking to see if anyone around here had any experience with similar situations, etc.

     

    Not to get some wishy washy new age lecture on changing myself, and not forcing others.

     

    Not to mention that some people need to be forced to do things, as per Acharya, but that is not for the limp wristed to discuss, and was beyond the range of this topic where a plea for sanity and hopes for education are the main theme.

     

    Again, I am NOT looking for input from anyone who has no association outside of cyberspace. I am hoping to kick it around with those who interact with their local community and see the horrors of unregulated, uneducated children emerging due to lack of parental guidance, and feel somewhat helpless to persuade others to sane behavior after rejecting the guidance of an Acharya like Srila Prabhupada.


  13.  

    Kids are kids. Hormonal changes are natural at that age. Adults are supposed to be adults and not encourage or condemn the kids in situations like this. Parents should be parents and teach their kids that they need to be extra careful at temple functions etc. but there is no need to blow this up into another cause for crusade. Cut the drama.

     

    Reminds me of hearing some matajis at MVT complaining about the "kulis" wearing short pants. Imagine that, short pants in 95 degree weather. These young people have often grown up with dysfunctional neglectful parents who were at least into a false cult of Krsna consciousness as much as they were sadhana bhakti. They are growing up in society which is even more hedonistic then the one I grew up in. Just consider that they were there for Gaura Purnima at all and how rare that is. Where were their peers and what were they doing?

     

    It is not by repression that we advance. It is by experiencing a higher taste.

     

    Your rhetoric is pointless. Noone said anything about repression. And I rejected condemnation.

     

     

    So what a pickle. It would be hypocritical for me to be condemning and angry with them, but I should certainly not tolerate that type of behavior in my community without voicing my opinion.

     

    I clearly made that point, and was bringing this up in spirit of Istagosthi, identifying a problem and looking for solutions which are not born of hypocrisy and breeding repression.

     

    I saw plenty of positive transcendental signs last night, and commented on them at the time, and afterwards today. However I was remembering a BAD thing I saw, in relation to the dilemna raised in CB's post. I am not a stork with head buried in sand (or worse), and I see both the positive and the negative. Gee, I seem to remember a certain acharya telling us we must know what is not favorable (prohibition) as well as what is favorable.

     

    So is there anyone else not so high on his horse that all he can do is condemn my concern? I was a school teacher, and have many nieces and nephews, we all know kids will be kids and when the hormones kick in. Srila Prabhupada knew this too, and gave us "suggestions" to implement. But they need to be implemented as a group.

     

    For as theist said...

     

     

    Parents should be parents and teach their kids that they need to be extra careful at temple functions etc.

     

    You say they Should. Should. And if the parents are not doing that, which they are not, do we care or just say it is their karma, they have free will, may as not preach to them?

     

    To do nothing and let it take care of itself is easy if one has nobody under their protection who should be guided to the best association possible.

     

    and as for this...

     

     

    but there is no need to blow this up into another cause for crusade. Cut the drama.

     

    Spoken like someone who has repressed their emotions so much that there is no longer any drama to perceive. It is all quite dramatic actually, and felt that way by sensitive people. Srila Prabhupada was ultra-extreme according to this view, he micromanaged every part of his hapless disciples dramatically ignorant lives at first.

     

    The drama becomes transcendental when we deal with the runaway drama of explotiation and manipulation, but first we have to see and aknowledge the problem, and address it as a group of adults. That means a common understanding of rules for the children. And this is built only upon what we ourselves can embody and enforce by giving higher engagement.

     

    There is such a common understanding at the local temple. It is just that it is far from what Srila Prabhupada requested. As a matter of fact, those instructions are not even mentioned for consideration, untouchable fantasy goals according to those who wish to remain grossly ignorant.

     

    So in the spirit of istagosthi, does anyone readin here have experience dealing with this in any way where they have had success in seeing nice changes made by caring interaction with others? Those who do not engage in such meaningful community endeavors need not answer, especially with presumptuous ad hominem attacks like labeling one a crusader, or less than constructive condescending platitudes like "kids will be kids" or "cut the drama".

     

    All glories to Vaisnava sanga.


  14.  

    Martyrdom: an essential component of the messiah complex.

    We better get those girls from 9-19 into Burkhas as quickly as possible. Where's the Taliban when we need them?

    Burkhas.jpg

     

    From the new age guru's perspective, all dogma is relinquished, all is one, there is no need to preach, no need to continue the messianic mission of the Acharya, just let everyone be "themselves", why disturb? If they want to go to hell, just let them.

     

    A true theist shows great compassion in the face of all adversity, including being classified under the one of the popularly misconstrued definitions of true messianism, and enduring beatings in 21 marketplaces or similar "forums" because of one's preaching.

     

    I am looking at this all from the perspective of a conditioned disciple, applying the teachings to myself, and lamenting that there are so few more advanced than myself who are preaching effectively, from the heart, to these poor degraded fools who are so terribly lost.

     

    And if one should stumble upon such spiritual compassion, they will stare all of the traps and pitfalls of the evangelist straight in the maw. And seek istagothi for support.

     

    Of course one must be careful about choosing the company to reveal such confidential inquiries of the heart, for you never know if there are any atheists lurking around looking to take advantage of sincere vulnerability in order to loose some venom that has formed in the old belly after years of false renunciation.

     

    I guess it just proves my point, shelter from predators, in whatever forum they are found, should be a top priority to acheive, regardless of what they will do or say to degrade, demean or debase one's character as they are confronted.

     

    Hare Krsna


  15. Hare Krsna

     

    While reading the above post, I began to revisit memories of last night at the Gaura Purnima festival, and the literally dozens, plural, of girls between 9 and 19 who were presenting themselves to me. And to all the boys and men, in the same confused hormonal driven tama-guna mating rituals which I took part in as a child due to the poor fund of knowledge of my parents and community.

     

    And while I smiled at them and was kind, inwardly it was tearing me up knowing the mediocre destiny of most of these girls, and the abuse some are destined to endure at the hands of some of the mudhas there who were all to pleased at the display, and took the opportunity to make some "advancement".

     

    I have two words.

     

    Sodom. Gomorrah.

     

    So what a pickle. It would be hypocritical for me to be condemning and angry with them, but I should certainly not tolerate that type of behavior in my community without voicing my opinion.

     

    And what detachment I must have, when if education is not received, we are looking at wholesale degradation of the society in short time, hard not to feel urgent about saving such from happening when you are young like me and still attached to desiring some modicum of humanity amidst our fakeroo knuckle dragging ape fest.

     

    Preaching from the heart in situations like this will bring both some success and probable martyrdom. I guess thats just the way Krsna likes it.

     

    Hari bol.


  16.  

    Is Vedic Knowledge present in the Bible?

     

     

    Now we are equipped to read the Bible in Light of the Vedas, and understand Vedic knowledge/wisdom contained in Jesus Lila. The Vedas are contained in the Life of Christ. The knowledge is revealed through "Mystery" by contacting Jesus through the heart of Mary .. rejoice! .. Jesus teaches us in direct relationship to His Person, .. Himself !!! :):pray:

    Haleluiah!

     

    This should give a clue to all men aspiring to discipleship about how to look at all their mothers out there, from their blood Mother to Sisters, cousins, and neighbors.

     

    No-one pleases the father except through service to his Son who is the bonafide Spiritual Master, and no man pleases the Spiritual Master unless the women in his own sphere of influence are well sheltered and cared for emotionally and physically, and this alone will inspire them to spontaneously reveal the devotion and love of a divine mother to you as they will see you as a true and worthy servant of the son of Krsna the Father.

     

    Hare Krsna


  17.  

    Mark, I think I have an idea to whom you refer here, but could you clarify this for me? If you mean devotees such as Goursundar, Siddhasvarupananda, Sudama, and Subal, I also had their association (the pleasure of their association), even before Mahaksa, and I can tell you that, imperfect as they were, and as far as they appear from one person or another's idea of being in ISKCON (however you construe that), in those days they were Srila Prabhupada's leaders, and he loves them dearly. This I have seen (as CB might say) with my own eyes, heard with my own ears. They were his men, and he exhorted devotees to cooperate with them then.

     

    Just my nickel's worth today. :)

    Not a one of them came to my mind Prabhu, I was referring to the subhuman boors who plagued and still plague the movement, the usual suspects no one else.

     

    I met a nice devotee named Subal once. He was quite full of some bhava and was kind and measured and very intelligent.

     

    Hare Krsna


  18.  

    " The divine love for The All Attractive -Krishna-prema is an eternally established reality of the soul, it is not brought about by sadhana (the practical process). It automatically manifests itself in the purified soul"

     

    Key word, Purified.

     

    The soul must already be purified. How did the soul reach that platform?

    Being PRIORLY engaged in the Practical Process of Vaidhi Bhakti Sadhana under the specific instruction of his chosen Spiritual Master and Acharya(ideal teacher).

     

    Sadhana first.

     

    Prema later.

     

    Inconceivably, that which is eternally already existing and is not brought about by any practical process of sadhana, is not realized and embodied by a conditioned soul until they practice sadhana.

     

    Inconceivable. Hope we can all get used to knowing the inconceivable. :)

     

    Happy Gaura Purnima

     

    ys

     

    B.M


  19.  

    There is a great wealth of vaisnavic tradition that have western roots and other cultural imprint. Appreciation can only come from a point where one rejects what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur dubbed PARTY SPIRIT BLINDNESS.

     

    In the past, I have had great emotional outburst from saints like Jerome, Ambrose (two Christian Avadhutas), therese Avila, Of course Francis, Queen Mary of Magdalia, Mary of Axum (mother of Lord Jesus Christ), Didyamous Thomas, James. Also, Solomon and David always get to me.

     

    I am pleased to say Ive met more than a few folks who try to follow Lord Jesus Christ who never so much as flinched at the idea that Krsna is His Father (who else is the most attractive personality), and I can honestly say that we had very meaningful istagosthi without any trappings of sectarianism. Some of the rastafarian community are also so very open to the idea of yuga dharma, as are a few black muslims I have met over the years (those true to the teachings of Malcolm X, not farrakhans folks or followers of Elijah Muhammed.)

     

    This peace and love stuff in the Name of God actually is not sentimental gobbledy-gook. Neither is the part about the sublime life that awaits those who chant the Names of the Supreme Lord. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

    We worship "Jeheshua" or Jesus, Spiritual Master and Lord of Peace and Tranquil Love each and every morning, that is the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada.

     

     

    PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

    Los Angeles, January 2, 1969

    • samsara-davanala-lidha-loka-
      tranaya karunya-ghanaghanatvam
      praptasya kalyana-gunarnavasya
      vande guroh sri-caranaravindam

    This song is offering obeisances particularly to the spiritual master, and the symptoms of the spiritual master are described in this prayer. The spiritual master has two kind of symptoms in his activities. One kind is called constant, and other kind is called temporary. So the first verse says that the constant symptom of the spiritual master is that he can deliver his disciples from the blazing fire of this material existence. That is the eternal qualification of spiritual master. Tranaya means for deliverance, and karunya means compassionate, very merciful. The spiritual master comes to the deliverance of the fallen souls out of his causeless mercy. Nobody has any business for the sufferings of others. The best example is Lord Jesus Christ, that he suffered for others. And it is the principle in the Bible that he accepted all the sins of others. This is the sign of spiritual master, that he voluntarily accepts the sinful activities of others and delivers them. That is the qualification of spiritual master.

     


  20.  

    Someone asked :

     

    "Please tell us Mahaksa dasa, what then is the fate of the poor souls who Srila Prabhupada inititated through representatives for years without ever meeting them or even knowing their names?

     

    And how does this speak to Srila Prabhupada's integrity as a Vaisnava to leave such a dangling participle which eventually would mean spiritual disaster.

     

    Please enlighten us if you can."

     

    mahak: Well, if you bother to read the citation on guru-tattwa I posted from SSR, and maybe even go and read the full chapter as to avoid the cut and paste method of hearing and chanting shastra. Carefully read, the citiation I posted speaks about the whole idea of guru tattwa is RELATIONSHIP BUILDING. Your scenario dont wash, as I am probably one of the most remote disciples of Srila Prabhupadas. I am not a poor soul, and never is there a time when Guru does not even know who his disciples are. I imagine there are many who never bothered to build the relationship, and they maY THINK THAT IT IS ALL JUST A PAPER TRAIL WITH NO REAL MEANING, BUT DONT LAY THAT OUT ON ME.

     

    The problem with the system-vadis of both the GBC and the IRM ilk is that some system is their guru, and relationship building is never even considered. This is why this arrogant question is put here. There is no enlightenment to those who think that the initiation they received from Srila Prabhupada has no one on the other side of the relationship. This is why those prefer to have a guru be a foundation, a system, etc, because then they really dont have to have a person they have to relaTE TO.

     

    tHE Whole idea of having a guru is for the student to learn how to behave in the presence of the Lord (Sounds like a good title for a song). So, if there is no one there for the student to practice on, to serve, even to worship (guru puja), who is there to receive the sadhana bhakti process from.

     

    Okay, ya got that? I was remotely initiated, Sudama Swami recommended me, Subal Swami performed the fire sacrifice, but Srila Prabhupada received me and I accepted him to the best of my ability, which is still being worked on. But Srila Prabhupada personally knows me, has made a determination that I should receive first initiation. He is also extremely pleased that I refused to receive second initiation from him because at the time, I was a bit wavering on the ganja issue and I informed Sudama that I was not ready to commit. Srila Prabhupada knew me well enough to let Sudama know that honesty in terms of how to assess ones maturity and willingness to accept the terms of the relationship building process of initiation, such honesty is wished for all his disciples, he expressed pleasure that one has the honesty to say, "I cannot agree to your terms as of yet, Srila Prabhupada."

     

    Now if a disciple is so dominated by others in the materialistic foundational hierarchy that he is full of fear to inquire from one who recommended him for initiation as to how it was received by Srila Prabhupada, maybe initiation never really took place. How many disciples of Srila Prabhupada, on the day following harinama fire sacrifice, actually went door to door to collect funds to be sent personally to Srila Prabhupada, which is something that is required from all disciples. I lived on a remote island without transportation, but I still collected and sent $8.75 by hitchhiking and asking those who gave me a ride, telling exactly what the funds were needed for.

     

    You speak of integrity, laying this false notion on Srila Prabhupada, yet because the word "relationship" doesnt compute to the "system-vadis", Srila Prabhupada is given all blame along with heaps of imagined karma laid on him without his permission by folks he has not authorized to act even on his behalf. No, I question the integrity of the disciple, who shares equally the responsibility of relationship building. Dangling disciples are there becauise their own refusal to relate to Srila Prabhupada, not the other way around.

     

    Haribol, ys in full understanding of VCR, mahaksadasa

    Hari bol Mahak, that was very nice to read and nice to know you could get that out so poetically, which is your penchant in prose and it means you are speaking from the heart, so here goes.

     

    I am not that guy. At least most of me is not. You have been blowing up one straw man after another, and my fault is I set them there for you by my incomplete ability to do my professed profession, but I am not so dull, so we are where we are. I am certain I have been tilting at your windmills as well.

     

    I had not the displeasure of some of the association you had to wade through in the early days, so you are the one who needs to shrug off whatever poisonous traces they left behind, tentacles still thread like needles in your neurons here and there linked to the past by the etheric subplanes. I know you know you are bigger than that, so you blow it out quick, on to better things.

     

    I get the part of the relationship. And the personal reciprocation. I played devil's advocate way back when on the PL forum with your strict standards for a ritvik priest, but mostly agreed. The most confidential point is this. Srila Prabhupada wanted guys like us to become so personally involved and caring about each other like family that we would automatically give relevant and loving Siksa to those who were Junior in advancement, not necessarily congruent with age or rank, but perhaps generally.

     

    The Ritvik can only do his job if the rest of the senior men in the society are wise and loving Siksa Guru's, unyielding from Srila Prabhupada's yoke and thus able to by qualification authoritatively reciprocate with new disciples in Iskcon.

     

    As Jesus said, "Ye will be known for even greater things than I"

     

    Srila Prabhupada has high expectations, but his orders were clear about how to proceed. We just need to have faith that he saw what we did not, recognize who is not completely Its-gone, and bring it together.

     

    Happy Gaura Purnima.

     

    ys

     

    B.Mark


  21.  

    What I'm saying is ISKCON is the mission you serve, I'm not involved with changing ISKCON's internal affairs, so it isn't 'my business'. That doesn't mean I'm not concerned with what develops there. I wouldn't be talking with you about this otherwise.

     

    But just to be completely honest, you guys though have sounded off like a couple of gun-nut A-team whackos on several occasions :eek2: that gives me pause as to your judgment if ever allowed to assume a position of power. This may be totally inaccurate and don't take it too seriously, but when looking to change the government you have to be concerned as to who may fill the vaccuum. Sometimes the revolutionaries are great at overthrow but suck badly as rulers. I hope that makes sense to you ;) This is half joking and half not.

     

    Anyhow, I wish you well and hope you are successful in pleasing your Srila Swami Maharaj. Happy Gaura Purnima!

    Hare Krsna!

     

    I feel good about what you just said. Least understood about the Ksyatria spirit is their impulsiveness within the material plane. It is a shadow of the spontaneity of the Lord's good person. When channeled by Vedic knowledge, we are talking the Maharajarsi, and the mode of goodness is prominent in such a great devotee.

     

    So on their way up, being trained by Srila Prabhupada from whatever exit they got off of the samsara highway into the transcendental express, there will be some non-vedic conditioning to work through, thus caution is imperative.

     

    In the SAME WAY, the Ksyatria tests the ones who pose to instruct based on the Absolute truth of Acharya and sastra to be sure they have the brahminical qualifications to do so. If not they need to be reprimanded and remanded into the hands of their guru for further training, and if they were altogether out of varna, their guru will expect to be checked on it. Speaking with authority without the backing is only to be done as a schoolboy among friends, or in the mock debates administered by the head master. Not among the innocent public of Kali Yuga.

     

    If they are rogue, speaking in public as if with authority, yet answering to noone, we know what Bhaktivinode Thakur did to the Bogi Yogi with the powerful siddhis. Threw away the key.

     

    By the way, I serve the spirit of the International Society of Krsna Consciousness, which includes a recognizable institution on planet earth.

     

    Srila Prabhupada envisioned a unified society. International in scope. Call it what you want, that was his goal. He planeted the seed, and he let it grow as it is. This is my specialty. Permaculture. Organic process. So I am just tending his garden. I have some quirky and diverse skills, he makes use of them in such amazing ways, considering my tendency to ignorance.

     

    He saw non sectarian removal of false boundaries among Vaisnavas by a unified and clearly delineated philosophy of spiritual service, and material management occuring simultaneously. A brahminical head which would quickly recruit the rest of the body through the sweet song of the Bhagavad Gita.

     

    A brahmana who cannot recognize and accept the deeper truth of the Ksyatria varna will have little success at satisfying A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami, and assumedly any other Gaudiya Acharya who of course work in harmony towards the Shaktavesha Avatars goals, and never preach in a confusing manner or one that would contradict such a great Acharya's recent teachings for the whole west. The Harmonist and his General are overseeing the whole show.

     

    Jaya Gaura Hari!


  22.  

    This is still speculation. It could be true, it could be false, it could be somewhere in between. I'm frankly tired of the subject. Anyhow, it is your business and I'll leave it to you. May the truth prevail.

     

    Actually, when you discover it is very much YOUR business also, then the truth will prevail. Good luck.

     

    Hare Krsna


  23.  

    Again, what Bk Devarsi said.:idea:

    And this is backed up nicely by Srila Prabhupada's own words.

     

    "Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing everything, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating. If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating."

    In the same way, Caturbahu, et al were cheated. Not exactly according to the context of the above quote, but remember that the peripheral rules and regs to support the 4 regs and chanting were being uniformly applied to everyone and they were brahminical. This is what Srila Prabhupada was trying to avoid at this point. Not so much change in the basic 4 regs, but everything supporting them by varna.

     

    Taking responsibility for being cheated is not equivalent to maintaining any vow one was cheated into making due to naivete.

     

    No need for the self-flagellation once the calvary arrives.

     

    Make the necessary adjustments, and move on.

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