brajeshwara das

Yes Prabhu, I was just joking. The statement "As Acharya of your own mission" was pretty was far out there, I thought is was pretty funny. You have been nothing but helpful and kind to me, I hope I caused you no offense.

Alligator: Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun Sleepin by the river just like he usually done Call for his whisky He can call for his tea Call all he wanta but he can't call me Oh no I been there before and I'm not comin back around there no more Creepy alligator comin all around the bend Talkin bout the times when we was mutual friends I check my mem'ry I check it quick yes I will I check it runnin some old kind of trick Oh no well I been there before and I ain't a comin back around there no more no I'm not hung up waitin' for a windy day Hung up waitin for a windy day Tear down the Fillmore, Gas the Avalon Ridin down the river in an old canoe a bunch of bugs and an old tennis shoe out of the river all ugly and green the biggest old alligator that I've ever seen teeth big and pointed and his eyes were buggin out contact the union, put the beggars to route screamin and yellin and lickin his chops he never runs he just stumbles and hops just out of prison on six dollars bail mumblin at bitches and waggin his tail Alligator runnin round my door (4x) Alligator creepin round the corner of my cabin door He's comin round to bother me some more ~~~ </pre>Purport: We are not the body, we have had so many previous births, and we should try and get ourselves out NOW, back to Godhead. The Alligator is bad association, our old self or our old tendencies incarnate in a lower creature. We should try to avoid him or he will devour us. We have to be ever vigilant to make sure he doesn't sneak up and bite us!

Sure, I understand. It is also my faith that the diksha Guru plants the creeper of devotion, gives the Holy Name, and is necessary. But everyone has to surrender in thier own time and way, and who is a Sadhu? I know many who have not taken formal initiation are much more advanced than I, so I have to pay my respects if I hear Guru there.

Theist is his own branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya? Sweet! All I can say is trust is necessary. One may trust Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada, how fortunate is that?!? We can't minimize the power in that. If one feels that association is sufficient, or hasn't found one he can trust and surrender to, we should respect that. There is a lot of sincerity there.

Nonsense, I'm as intolerant as you are.

I'm not arguing anyone's position, but just wanted to mention Srila Swami Maharaj considered Srila Sridhar Maharaj his Siksha Guru, referring to Him as 'Om Vishnupada'. I'm certain Srila Sridhar Maharaj heard Sri Guru from Srila Swami Maharaj as well, not sure he considered him Shiksha Guru though, I know he considering Him Shaktavesh Avatar. Just paying proper respects.

You? There is no 'you' here! Only You. Are you talking to yourself again? Only crazy people do that... I'm just done with the debate. You can't prove exclusive oneness against the evidence there is difference. We are discussing this here now, or do you disagree? Are you just under an illusion that we are discussing it? If so, why continue if you have the realization it is all one? Who is there to convince? Why bother? The truth as far as I'm concerned is acintya bhedabheda. I think I'll lightheartedly let this thread go now.

I don't know about the original question, but here's my take on ritviks: In SCSMath we also allow ritvik initiations, and I have witnessed a few and I always felt my Gurudeva was present and the initiates were truly getting initiated by Srila Govinda Maharaj. I know and trust Sripad Janardan Maharaj is a conduit for Srila Govinda Mahara's mercy. I think the whole issue with the ritvik system in ISKCON is trust. If devotees could feel they trusted all the ritviks I think they wouldn't have so much of an issue with it. More fundamantally if more devotees could feel they could trust the ISKCON Gurus in the disciplic succession from Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada there wouldn't be a need for the ritvik system, as there was no ritvik system I'm aware of following the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada (that I'm aware of). By saying this I'm not saying anyone is untrustworthy, but we know from experience that this is sometimes the case. Please forgive any ignorance from me, as I don't really understand the internal affairs in ISKCON, but from the outside that is how it seems. All Glories to ISKCON and Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada!

We are limited so we have limited ability to handle too much at one time, so we have to send the child away to play with something while we get our work done. Krishna is unlimited, so He has the ability to handle all our affection. Remember he had 16,108 wives and palaces!

Ah, so is 'love' in the material world. They could have bought flowers for Krishna and given to Him together.

This is all nonsense. If there is a we and there is a He there is difference. You can say it is on account of my dualistic thinking all you want, it doesn't make your broken pot hold water.

I don't think it is 'gone' like you say, I think it is still here even if by some great mercy I get to Goloka Vrindavan. There are still spirit souls here that need mercy. It wasn't all just a figment of my imagination. They exist independent of my particular illusion. If I'm not the boss than we aren't 'one'. We are one and different. Who makes the rules and regs, me, in my Brahman state that I seem to have forgotten I created?

It will be interesting to see how people react if it turns out they were killing each other. I don't mean to sound mean spirited, so don't take that the wrong way. I certainly wish those jivas well, wherever they are now. But I can imagine some people holding onto the myth of two lovers even if they turn out to have been mortal enemies.

The Grateful Dead were an American rock band in the 60's, 70's 80's and 90's, and basically ended when the lead guitarist Jerry Garcia left his body. Though not overtly God conscious, they were theists, and wrote many songs that spoke to me and many others about the Lord. Lots of 'Deadheads' are devotees now, and the Dead had a 'scene' that was very condusive to sharing, encouraging spiritual growth. You kind of had to be there though.

The burrito place my vegetarian coworkers and I go to just put up a sign saying the cows they feed you are guaranteed vegetarian. It's appalling that things have gotten so bad for cows that you now need to be assured they are not cannibalistic! One of my coworkers said "they guarantee the cows were fed vegetarians (humans)". That may not be far off in the future

I can give you the 'Hare Krishna' purports to most any Grateful Dead song BTW . I used to sneak out and go to Dead dances when I was a Bramachari because I would hear Guru so strongly through the lyrics to the songs I had been listening to for years. After I took initiation it just got stronger. OK, I'm a freak, hopefully the above isn't really offensive.

The only non-kirtan Vaisnava music I have is the Radha-Krishna temple (which is pretty much kirtans with alternate instruments) and a couple Laya Lakshmi CDs (again kirtans really). My concern is I'm a bit uncomfortable when I don't know the consciousness something was made with, but I'm be open to hear devotional music in other styles. Any recommendations? I would prefer something along the lines of the Grateful Dead or Allman Brothers. It seems to me the Lord will reveal Himself through pop music even when we aren't looking for Him: Youre my blue sky, you're my sunny day. Lord, you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way, Turn your love my way, yeah.

Do you see the discussion between Narada and Krishna as another dream? This is the distinction. We have faith that Krishna and Narada are real. Srila Sridhar Maharaj: We should understand that we are living in the plane of misconception. The whole thing is false. It is all a part of illusion. Within the world of illusion, some thing may have its place, but when we deal with the real truth, however, we will conclude that everything here is like a dream. This whole world is like a dream, a misconception. Any part of this world will therefore also be misconception. What is real, what is truth, will become apparent when a thing is judged in connection with the real world. The association of saints who have a genuine connection with spiritual reality promotes this transaction. What is real and what is unreal? Whatever has a connection with the real self, with the soul, is real. Soul is consciousness in the world of pure consciousness. Whatever is connected with the mind in the mental world of false-ego is all false. A part of the false is also false, extremely false. But it has got its negative utility. Everything is true only by having connection with the Absolute Truth. Everything is there in the absolute. So the finite cannot produce anything which is not in the infinite. The finite world, therefore, is rather a shadow or a perverted reflection of the whole truth.

Also, we believe the jiva can do as it pleases, just the result could be an existance far from the sat-chit-ananda that is the natural position of the soul. So if you want to rape, murder, plunder etc. that is your constitutional right to do with your free will. Just you will suffer the consequences, you will reap what you sow. You will remain under illusion and suffer the bondage of this material world. We also believe that you will get there someday, the odds are with you when you are dealing with infinity, but how many lifetimes do you want to spend fulfilling those desires?

But Maya exists, so forms do exist. You can say they cease, but if something is there then gone, you can't deny it was there. He defined the basis for the misunderstanding you call Vedanta. Just because something is popular does not mean it is true. Look at all the jiva souls in this world that believe material aquisition, ie. getting a big screen TV is the ultimate goal of life. That currently is the most popular belief, far outstripping either of our positions. Please don't use that as a basis for faith in your conception. All responsibility ends then, nothing you do matters because eventually you will get to the goal. Ten billion lifetimes to the power of infinity, but you will get there someday. And you are the boss, no one else is above you. I can see why it is so popular. Srila Sridhar Maharaj said the truth that the jiva is an eternal servant of the Lord can be a hard pill to swallow. I think this is the reason the Mayavadi conception exists at all, to give you an easy way out.

But you say Lord Visnu is Supreme but you also say in absolute terms he is devoid of form and qualities. He is supreme how then? It appears you are saying He doesn't exist independent of illusion, although He is aware of the illusion? So he is not one with us 'One' then, because although He is eternally aware of the Oneness He is different still? Why does he hold this sort of position? Who else holds this sort of position? I have to admit your reasoning is beyond me, and I don't think that is because I have an inferior conception.

When I lived at my local temple I always found that some devotees that were very enthusiastic for kirtan in the temple were reluctant to go to the street and confront the public, many living outside the temple and fearing seeing friends and coworkers while on kirtan. Our temple is the opposite situation, most residents and guests are US natives and deity worship is very attractive, I don't think that's an issue at all. I just think 'Hare Krishnas' got a bad rep from some people associated with the movement. That is manifest in maybe a reluctance to take the movement seriously by a skeptical public (I was very skeptical at one time).

Is Lord Visnu under illusion and needs to come to the realization He is Brahman too? Who is He and what is His position then? I don't deny you have Bhakti in your tradition, but as you say it is a tool to reach the goal, for us it is the goal.

That is not contradictory, that is the truth as revealed by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Again, a matter of faith.