brajeshwara das

A very nice, clear concise explanation

Where do you live? BTW, ISKCON should be fine, remember the relationship you want to build most is with Caitya Guru in your heart, if you don't find that you feel He resonates with you at the ISKCON temple then keep searching.

Believe as you choose to believe, more power to you.

One of my very best old-time friends was intricately involved in the SWP leadership, as was his family and I went to plenty of rallies and lectures etc. I know all about it. I had a subscription to The Militant for years. In the end I found them lacking in true understanding of the problem at hand, with no effective way to address it. The reason for all the suffering in this world is simple: selfish interest and exploitation of others. If everyone were to become devotees, their interest would be Krsna's interest and we would live in peace and prosperity for all. And I'm not talking about shaved heads and doties, but internal devotion within most humans. Really being devotees in their hearts. No more exploitation, just service. But the reality is this material world is the land of exploitation, though you can work to limit it you will not remove exploitation. A lion and a lamb are exploiting, will you convince them? We have to get out of this burning world and take as many with us as we can on our way out. It certainly can improve the material situation as well for people in general if we work to propogate the Sankirtan movement, we should put everything we have towards that goal. The Socialists see the everyone as workers. That's an improvement from the capitalists' view that all are exploiters, but better to see everyone as a servants of the Lord. That is reality. We need to see everyone as spirit souls who are not these bodies. Do Socialists teach or agree with that? I don't think so. They reinforce a false sense of who we are and what our purpose is, and we need to move beyond that. Ask your socialist friends if they can equate themselves as servants. If so, servants to who? Without theistic thought it will go nowhere. I appreciate the core of socialism 'we want to end exploitation' but really our rallying cry is 'we want to serve.' I know you see them as similar and they are addressing the same basic issue in a sense, but their understanding is purely materialistic and so is their solution. It is inadequate. That they hate exploitation is good though, and you should try and teach them how God should play the central role in their struggle against it.

He gave the mantra in his first response in this thread: om namo bhagavate maha-purusaya sarva-guna-sankhyanayanantayavyaktaya nama iti You need to read posts before flaming people, it doesn't help your case. Also it isn't said that Lord Siva is in ignorance, but is the incarnation of tamo-guṇa, but has nothing to do with the modes of material nature (and therefore not in ignorance, which is what you are objecting to, I assume): Because destruction is in the mode of ignorance, Lord Śiva and his worshipable Deity, Sańkarṣaṇa, are technically called tāmasī. Lord Śiva is the incarnation of tamo-guṇa. Since both Lord Śiva and Sańkarṣaṇa are always enlightened and situated in the transcendental position, they have nothing to do with the modes of material nature — goodness, passion and ignorance — but because their activities involve them with the mode of ignorance, they are sometimes called tāmasī. This is from Srimad Bhagavatam, you can argue it is a Gaudiya concoction but bring that up with Vyasadev, ok?

Ok Bhakti-raja. Do as you wish. Just know Narasingha Swami wasn't critiquing Srila Swami Maharaj but some of His disciples. From the outside looking in, ISKCON looks like one screwed up mess, and it isn't because of Srila Swami Maharaj not being respected from the outside but the inside, not from him getting too little recognition but ignoring His true position in the disciplic succession of our sampradaya.

I'm not sure I can stand to hear any more of how badly Srila Swami Maharaj was treated by his 'disciples' But continue anyhow, it just makes me feel so furtunate to not have been caught up in all of that. So some of the same people are leading ISKCON now? Dear Lord.

There are three types of karma: Kriyamana, Prarabdha, and Sanchita. Sorry for copy/pasting from Wikipedia, but this was my quikest source of definitions. I thought this may be a subject where I have a lot to learn so here it is: Kriyamana karma, in Hinduism, is the karma that human beings are creating in the present, the fruits of which will be experienced in the future. Kriyamana having the root kri, comes from the same root as karma suggesting action. Kriyamana karma is the karma we create either consciously or unconsciously in this current lifetime. It is the most vital of karma as it is that which we have volitional affect upon. Sanchita as well as Pralabda refers to karma already sown whereas Kriyamana creates the affects of the future. It is kriyamana karma that gives the potential to create a life different from the patterns of the past. In Hinduism, sanchita karma is one of the three kinds of karma. It is the sum of one's past karmas – all actions (good and bad) from one's past life follow through to the next life. Prarabdha is that portion of the past karma which is responsible for the present body. That portion of the sanchita karma which influences human life in the present incarnation is called prarabdha. It is ripe for reaping. It cannot be avoided or changed. It is only exhausted by being experienced. You pay your past debts. prarabdha karma is that which has begun and is actually bearing fruit. It is selected out of the mass of the sanchita karma

So 10,000 years must pass before there is another chain in the parampara, formal Guru disciple of Srila Swami Maharaj? Is that is what is being said? Anyway, I agree with the value of the rtvik concept, but whitewash looks just like milk but is not milk. If I were looking for initiation how would I know the rtvik actually was qualified? 10,000 years is a long time.

Yes, but isn't Srila Swami Maharaj getting the bija from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada? And He from His Guru and so on, a chain? I am not saying it is based on bodies, but the acharyas have shown this as the method: we approach the spiritual master, who is in service to His Guru, and receive initiation. Most likely would not understand that you can approach the spiritual master through a book and receive initiation in your heart. This seems a harder prospect to me. Isn't Krishna so merciful that He is sending His representatives constantly? Isn't this why Guru is coming to us in the bodily form? I received the bija from Srila Govinda Maharaj who received from Srila Sridhar Maharaj who received from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada and so on. Please explain why we need Srila Prabhupada then if we can just keep going back further to a source prior to Him? I don't understand this reasoning. If no Guru is present in bodily form then we go to the books only, but shouldn't we search for Guru everywhere, in books, in our heart, in the servants of the servants we meet? I do not blame anyone for not accepting initiation from someone they do not trust. I would blame them if they did. But shouldn't we have faith that He is there waiting for Us to approach? Not only in book form but in bodily form?

But before Srila Swami Maharaj there was Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati, etc. There is a disciplic line. Are you saying it should end with Srila Swami Maharaj? All now should be disciples only, no Guru beyond Srila Swami Maharaj? What of the other Maths, are we not to join in brotherhood with ISKCON in Sankirtan?

I don't mean to say ISKCON should revive the rtvik system. Just if they do, all who feel otherwise should form thier own society maybe. Better the family lives in two houses than quarrel in one.

Who will trust in the ritvk system in ISKCON, is it fixable? That is really the main thing I think. I don't pretend to know the answer, but there needs to be some concensus or a peaceful, congenial exodus of all that can't accept that system. Also I sincerely believe there needs to be another Guru to lead the ISKCON organization so the parampara continues on. Either that or ISKCON as it is known maybe should change to fit the name: International Society for Krishna Consciousness as an umbrella, big tent of all Gaudiya Maths in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada, to whom Srila Swami Maharaj was utterly devoted. Then you can have a ritvk system, Guru disciples, other Maths all working in some kind of joint way to serve Sriman Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement.

What was that all about? Where did that come from, what does it all mean? My little was just at the tone you take with people, hard to attract bees with stool, you should try honey or you will only attract flies. I'm not surprised you aren't finding the association you seek with your temperment. I'll hold off saying any more to you since you likely don't have the ears to hear it. Good luck with that.

So dovetailing is Aropa-siddha-bhakti? BTW< I personally don't mind your cutting and pasting.

My understanding is that you have some desire or predisposition, talent maybe, that you don't want to let go of, so you find some way to offer that in service to Sri Guru. Maybe you like ice cream, so you offer that to Gurudeva before you take it. Or you play guitar and sing, so you write songs to glorify the Lord. I'm not sure how good it is to do this, I know we should look for service to decend to us so we can know it is really the will of the Lord, but in many cases (grhasta life for example) we may not get so much direct instruction, and we may have activities we have to participate in to maintain house, home and family. So we try to offer everything to the Lord, even if He isn't asking for everything we offer. Anyhow, that's my understanding. I don't mean to mislead, so please take that with great suspicion.

Self-appointed ritviks. That's what he said. He isn't disregarding the wishes of Srila Swami Maharaj from what I understand. Are there any original ritviks left? I don't know, I'm not in ISKCON so I don't pay attention to that. But you can't blame anyone for not feeling comfortable because of the ritviks and gurus who have given ISKCON troubles in the past. When I was a bramachari I saw many devotees who's guru fell down come through shattered and suffering greatly, and not being able to trust enough to take shelter of my Gurudeva's lotus feet. They would take physical shelter, but rarely instruction. What should have been seva was rent. May no one have to endure that. Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada is not responsible for this of course, ISKCON is glorious and has a grand future. Please don't take my words the wrong way. Anyhow, I think you are being unfair to theist, if you disagree then what can I say? Trinad api sunicena, you know the drill. Also I would caution that you should be careful because though you seem quite certain, you may not know who is a Vaisnava and what is what. Dayal Nitai, please forgive my offenses.

Can anyone describe the different kinds of karma?

Notice theist is specific in saying who he doesn't need initiation from: This is different from him saying he doesn't need initiation from Guru. If he feels he has it from Srila Prabhupada who am I to say it isn't so? That is an internal affair. He is not advising others not to take shelter of Sri Guru but that he doesn't accept the authority of 'ecclesiastical guru walas or the self-appointed ritviks.' Like I said previously, it's a matter of trust and his own internal business. Please try and see that. Regarding rules and regulations, Krsna Consciousness is not all about rules and regs. It's ultimately about affection. I worship the ideal but shouldn't go around trying to hold a yardstick up to others to determine if they are following properly. The rules and regs are for me, not them.

Please read through all the posts. It appears Mahesh Raja misrepresents Srila Swami Maharaj. Therefore the one not to hear from is Mahesh Raja.

One other thing - who can follow all the rules and regulations perfectly? Who does? "Let the man without a sin upon his head cast the first stone." This is the point of tolerance, humility, and showing respect to others. The more I think about this the more it saddens me that it is common around here to treat people this way. Dayal Nitai, may the Lord forgive my offences.

I couldn't agree more. It isn't necessary to know how many studs are in each wall when the house is on fire and you are trying to find the exit among the smoke and flames.

Had theist taken initiation then deviated, sure your statement above may be valid. But he hasn't. I don't know how you think it is helpful to abuse him, which is what I consider you are doing. We should welcome people with interest to devotional life, not turn them away because they have very slight differences of opinion.