amanpeter

Thank you very much for reminding us of this most important point. Please allow me to express my gratitude also for your presence here as a participant, in spite of your position as an administrator. Much more personal than at VNN. ------------------ Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

Seems to me that it might be just about time for another Babaji to appear in the parampara recognized by ISKCON. Could be exactly what's needed!

Hey, now you've gone and introduced nefarious ideas into my pure and pristine mind...

"Sri Gour Govinda Gaudiya Math" <gourgovinda@hotmail.com> bvnmbillboard@ [bvnmbillboard] Pujyapada BV Tirtha Maharaja Fri, 11 May 2001 20:06:59 +0100 The following is from a talk given in Birmingham at a very popular new age shop called Zen. This shop has regularly scheduled seminars on Hatha-yoga, and many other new age topics, which are current. We had scheduled workshops on six consecutive Monday evenings extolling the chanting of the maha-mantra, which were attended by interested people from the general public. Each evening was a presentation from a different perspective. This evening's presentation was entitled, The Supreme Goddess Pujyapada Bhaktivedanta Tirtha Maharaja asked Pujyapada Bhaktivedanta Ashram Maharaja to speak first. BVAM: The different religious systems are all concerned with the Supreme Absolute Truth. There are many names for this Supreme Absolute Truth: Krsna, God, Allah, Jahweh…(all are names of the) Supreme energetic source and energy. The goal of Buddhism is nirvana – sunyavada – voidism. But those who follow the Vaisnava path have a different goal. There is a similarity to Buddhism, but also a fundamental difference. There are innumerable names of the Supreme Absolute Truth – Krsna, Rama, and Nrsimha – but that supreme truth is worshipped along with his energies. To worship Krsna alone without knowledge of His energies is something like Buddhism – worshipping nirvisesa Brahman. Approaching the Supreme Absolute Truth without qualities. But the Supreme Absolute Truth has diverse energies, forms and qualities. parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8) The one supreme Lord has innumerable energies. These are divided into three groups. 1) The internal energy – His spiritual abode. Just as we have here planets and universes – so beyond this cosmic manifestation is the spiritual sky with variegated planets. Another aspect of the internal energy is His form – full of knowledge, eternity and ananda, bliss. Another aspect – His eternal associates. He is never alone, He is always with friends who are enjoying in loving relationships with Him. This relationship is very important. Sankara and Buddha have no appreciation of this relationship with the Supreme Absolute Truth or transcendental variegatedness. 2) The second group is His external energy. There are innumerable planets and entities in each universe. bhumir apo ‘nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca ahankara itiyam me bhinna prakrtir astadha (Bg. 7.4) The external energy can be broken up into these elements – earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego. These are external. 3) The marginal energy – the living entities – us. We are eternal parts and parcels of the Supreme Absolute Truth, but we are identifying with this material world (external energy) as our home. We are thinking I am black, I am white, I am man, I am woman, I am Hare Krsna, I am Muslim. But these designations are linked with our activities. We have been falsely identifying since time immemorial. But we also have a chance to give up this false identification, which is like a dream, ethereal. We can wake up and see reality – the eternal world. We are presently identifying with the transitory world. Bhakti-Yoga. Yoga means linking. Bhakti-Yoga – through devotion. The topic tonight is The Supreme Goddess – Parama Devata. The Supreme Absolute Truth, Krsna – His energies are divided into three (His internal energy is also divided into three). 1) His pleasure potency 2) Knowledge 3) Eternal existence So, today we will discuss His pleasure potency. His pleasure potency is most powerful. Each potency has a presiding Deity. The pleasure potency is called hladini sakti – which is manifest as the Supreme Goddess, parama devata. The Supreme Absolute Truth is never without His energy, and the ultimate form of His energy is manifest as Radha. She has different names according to how She is manifest: Sita, Laksmi, … She is more powerful than Krsna Himself. In the most sweet and sublime way… This is a very confidential and esoteric subject – which is maybe why not many are here. Maharaja, whose being is flowing with Srimati Radhika’s, will now speak. (I may interject from time to time to give a clearer understanding.) Pujyapada Bhaktivedanta Tirtha Maharaja: gurave gauracandraya radhikayai tadalaye krsnaya krsna-bhaktaya tad-bhaktaya namo namah bhajami radham aravinda-netram smarami radham madhura-smitasyam vadami radham karuna-bharadram tato mamanyasti gatir na kapi Bhaktivedanta Ashram Maharaja mentioned something about who is parama devata. Some Rsis (seers) asked who is parama? Who is supremely powerful? She is the Supreme Goddess. She is most powerful. She is giving full energy. Sri Krsna, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead – when He is playing with this power then She is giving full energy. Then Sri Krsna is supremely powerful. Without energy Sri Krsna is only Brahman (The all pervading undifferentiated impersonal effulgence of the Lord). Not sarva saktiman, the supreme energetic source. Sri Krsna is most powerful. Sri Radhika is the Supreme Goddess. She is giving full enjoyment. She is giving Her service to Sri Krsna. BVAM: Some sages on the highest planet asked Brahma, the secondary creator, who is most intelligent, who is the most powerful? He said She is She who is giving energy to the Supreme Lord. He has received empowerment by Her. BVTM: So Sri Radhika is topmost. She is called Radha and Radhika. Sri Krsna worships Her. He is giving puspanjali – offering flowers to Her lotus feet. She is Radha. Who is most opulent, most powerful? She is giving full energy, full enjoyment, She is topmost enjoyment. All Vedanta, holy books have told – She is Radhika. “krsna van.. rupa….radhika nama What does Krsna desire? All His desires She is giving fully. She is serving in all things. How does She serve Him? In every way She is serving. She is serving Sri Krsna – giving all things. But She has no desire – She never wants anything for Herself. Always gives…His desires. Serving always. So She is Radha. radhika parama devata… sarva kanti Devi means She is topmost Supreme Goddess. Most beautiful. Sri Krsna attracts the whole universe. But who attracts Sri Krsna? Sri Radha – Her beauty, Her service, everything about Her attract Him. …govinda nandini radha… govinda mohini… krsna kanta siromani BVAM: Sri Radhika – Her service is so super excellent – selfless. In no way does She ever desire Her own happiness. This pure service mood manifests externally in Her transcendental beautiful form. (He is attracted by Her.) BVTM: Govinda nandini – giving pleasure to Krsna. Govinda mohini – attracting Krsna always near to Her. Always He is thinking of Her. Always playing with Her. All energy, all universes come from Her. So, Sri Krsna said, I am giving full pleasure to all jivas – but from where comes Sri Radha, Govinda Nandini. She is all in all. Sri Krsna’s all wealth – Sri Radha. BVAM: Who is giving happiness? He bewilders the whole world. Who bewilders him: Sri Radha. The source of pleasure is Radha – other than from Her there is no pleasure to give. Krsna cannot bear not being near Radha. He is always trying to get Her association. His all in all is Radharani. BVTM: She is all in all. He is playing all lila for Radha… mahabhava svarupa… mahabhava means full enjoy. BVAM: All activities of Krsna – He is only doing for Radha. Mahabhava Svarupini. This divine love, prema, when condensed and further condensed – to no limit; this manifestation is Radha. The most condensed form of divine love, which is always increasing. BVTM: This divine love is very powerful. Divine love develops through the stages called prema, sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, bhava, and mahabhava. The very form of mahabhava (BVAM: which has no equal, nothing greater), Sri Radha, is always remembering Sri Krsna. Both internally and externally She is remembering Him. Wherever She is looking She is seeing Syamasundara Sri Krsna. And Sri Krsna likewise is seeing Sri Radha. She is always giving service - having no desire for Herself. Her most divine love is that of giving Her full energy. BVAM: Pure unadulterated divine love - this prema is the ultimate goal of all bona-fide religions. The highest relationship possible between The Supreme Lord and His servants is that of lover and beloved. In this highest relationship the mood increases in intimacy from sneha - deep attachment. When sneha becomes more condensed then this becomes mana. So from deep attachment comes contrariness in love. Further still there will be pranaya - when the lover and beloved are like one. Raga, anuraga – high, higher – Srimati Radhika is the highest personification of love. This manifests in such a way that wherever She looks She sees Krsna (Just like in the common phrase ‘being in love’ with someone in material life – we may see them everywhere). Also Krsna is so enamoured that wherever He looks He only sees Radharani. BVTM: Every time She is seeing Krsna Radhika feels He is always new, never before seen. "Oh I have never seen His beauty, His sweet form," – this called anuraga. So anytime She is serving, meeting, She has this deep attachment. So, in our family life everybody wants that “I will be happy when I will have full energy." In family life, when a man is meeting with his wife, he is thinking, "we will be happy." Some little pleasure they are enjoying, some happiness is there, they are serving each other. Here in this world we have love, here we have service, here we have power, but very rarely only do we taste something. Many books of poetry have been written about love, but this is only material, fleeting, temporary, so-called love. A man is meeting with his beloved, so she is giving some energy to him, some service, so the man is feeling powerful. But, this family life is not fulfilling, she is not capable of giving him full energy, full satisfaction. Only something. BVAM: The love of Radharani – She always perceives Krsna’s beauty in a new way. “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” As Her love increases, Her perception of Him increases. So even She forgets that She has seen Krsna before. Family life is a perverted reflection of Their pure love – Something is there, but it is not pure love. It manifests as family life – due to material contact. A minute fragmental perverted reflection of that divine love found in the spiritual world. BVTM: Man and wife. Each other they are serving – then, when they are doing so they feel their love is good. But when any outside, selfish, desire comes – their mind is lost. Then they only want their own happiness; they do no longer truly desire the happiness of the other. They have only material enjoyment, in a business arrangement. No happiness. Their life will be broken – everything going lost. There will be happiness only if there is no desire for one's own happiness, but are only lovingly serving each other. Thus they are thinking their material life is very bad, they are always quarrelling, fighting – "When will I get pure love?" BVAM: In the material world – there is no selfless giving. Seva means I am serving my loved one only for their pleasure, but want nothing in return. Wanting something is not seva, but business. Spiritual world – they are free from selfish interest, so then they are happy. Divorcing and quarrelling occurs because the relationship is just based on selfish motivation. BVTM: Some people will worship demigods, praying to them - Durga Devi, Devi Mata. But there is no happiness. No good love. Somebody worships the goddess of fortune thinking, "Then I will have a lot of money and I will be happy." But where there is much wealth – happiness is not coming. Where will we find happiness? Where there is pure love, there is no need of opulence, no need for money, and no darkness, power, passion, or false ego will be found. There is simply no need for it. Radhika never wants anything. She is serving always. She has such great, deep mood, that Sri Krsna is taking full enjoyment. We have material desires, so we always have unhappiness. We are crying, "Where can I find this pure love?" But She who is Supreme Goddess, She is pure love. She is giving this message to us. Sri Krsna said, "If you surrender, take shelter of Her, then you will be happy." BVAM: Maharaja was explaining that some worship manifestations of the Supreme Goddess. Durga – Her manifestation in the material world. Durga easily awards material benedictions. Laksmi, the goddess of fortune, is transcendental, but many worship Her for material things. One should only approach Radharani for transcendental wealth. Not material things. The three modes of material nature – goodness, passion and ignorance combine to create everything in this world. We should only want to associate with the transcendental. BVTM: So our Vedas, Holy sastras have given us Brahma Gayatri. Every morning people are doing meditation, japa of Brahma Gayatri. AUM. A = Sri Krsna, U = Sri Radha, M = living entities, all jivas. So where they are meeting, there is AUM. Sri Krsna’s full power is Sri Radhika. When Sri Radha and Krsna are meeting with the jivas they will be happy. This is the goal of "Mantra Meditation." When Brahma was creating the whole universe sound was coming. First was "AUM” the primeval sound. After this we remember the full energy, power, Sri Radha. "She is coming in my heart. When She appears in my heart, all darkness will be dispersed." This mantra meditation, Brahma Gayatri, etc., – Sri Radhika is the parama devata (the Presiding Deity). When we worship Sri Radha, She will come into our heart, and then our life will be happy, successful. BVAM: A = Sri Krsna, U = Srimati Radhika, M = living entities. AUM signifies the meeting of the jivas with Radha Krsna in divine service and love. In the beginning of creation, Krsna plays His flute – that transcendental sound enters the ears and heart of Brahma, from his mouth comes the sound “AUM” (Like in the Bible where it says, "In the beginning was the word, and the word was God.") This is a part of the Gayatri mantra manifestation of parama devata Srimati Radhika. Sound manifestation. To one who is chanting in the mood of offering oneself She will enter their heart and remove all inebriates and sit on the lotus of their heart. She will reveal Herself. BVTM: Radhika. She is giving liberation. She is liberating us and we are going across all material existence, going to Goloka dhama. Who is singing – mantra meditation means singing Sri Radhika’s sweet name. Mindly, heartily, and bodily we are singing. One who is singing in this way, then Sri Radhika appears in their heart. “Pracodayat” – please appear Yourself in my heart. Pray to Her. This is called mantra meditation. BVAM: This mantra is called Gayatri. Gayatri means singing. Then trayate – we will be delivered by Radha Herself. One who is singing this, the word pracodayat said in a mood of offering. When you will manifest in my heart and take me from this side of material existence to there – to Goloka Vrndavana, where I can serve you? BVTM: always singing maha-mantra – Radha Krsna’s sweet names. (Then all singing maha-mantra) Question: How is Radha’s name linked with the maha-mantra? BVTM: Hare is Radha. (…?) Stealing Krsna’s mind. Radha left rasa dance. Krsna is unhappy. He goes to Radha Kunda. He is crying. Chanting, singing “Radha Radha Radha”. Radha is hiding. She sees Him. She is very pleased. So She goes to Him. But She is shy, saying, "Don't chant My name alone, all by itself. Chant this name: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare." Hare = Radha. So the mantra means Radhe Krsna Radhe Krsna Krsna Krsna Radhe Radhe/ Radhe Syama Radhe Syama Syama Syama Radhe Radhe. (Rama means … ramayeti iti rama…/) So Radha Ramana. This is Rama, who gives pleasure to Radha. Like water – when we see it in a small quantity it is clear. But in the ocean – it appears to be blue. Syamasundara Sri Krsna, He is blue in complexion. He is the ocean of rasa (transcendental mellows). Then Sri Krsna leaves Vrindavan and goes to Dwaraka. Srimati Radhika then feels great separation. The Manjaris (Her maidservants) are singing to Her “Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare” and She is singing “Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare”. BVAM: Question: Does hare mean hari? When Radha is chanting? BVTM: No – same meaning. Hare = Radha. Gaura Premanande! ------------------ Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

Dear Satyaraj, Have to agree with you this time, prabhu, though it should perhaps be pointed out that the process is highly personal, not mechanical. Becoming absorbed in the gopis' pastimes, personalities, moods, relationships, etc. is the only real solution. We must involve our emotions and share our heartfelt feelings with Srimati Radharani, in particular. She is immediately and easily accessible for all sincere devotees, as Sri Krsna's compassionate nature, through the Divine Grace of Lord Caitanya and Nityananda Prabhu. Sex desires need not be artificially suppressed nor can they be released without worsening our unfortunate condition. Radhika transforms lust into love and She can do it in a moment, when we truly regret our sinful position and express deepest remorse from our heart of hearts directly to Her personally. I have experienced Her mercy in that regard myself, when it seemed to me a matter of life and death. If anyone else has reached such a point in their lives and are serious enough, I would be glad to help by Email. Peter ------------------ Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

Dear Satyaraj, Have to agree with you this time, prabhu, though it should perhaps be pointed out that the process is highly personal, not mechanical. Becoming absorbed in the gopis' pastimes, personalities, moods, relationships, etc. is the only real solution. We must involve our emotions and share our heartfelt feelings with Srimati Radharani, in particular. She is immediately and easily accessible for all sincere devotees, as Sri Krsna's compassionate nature, through the Divine Grace of Lord Caitanya and Nityananda Prabhu. Sex desires need not be artificially suppressed nor can they be released without worsening our unfortunate condition. Radhika transforms lust into love and She can do it in a moment, when we truly regret our sinful position and express deepest remorse from our heart of hearts directly to Her personally. I have experienced Her mercy in that regard myself, when it seemed to me a matter of life and death. If anyone else has reached such a point in their lives and are serious enough, I would be glad to help by Email. Peter ------------------ Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

Just a few ideas to perhaps stimulate others. Personally, I LIKE Indiadivine! I'd prefer this forum to be as open as possible, especially considering that there are two others specifically intended for Vaisnavas, meaning mostly Gaudiya ex-ISKCON. How about using the words `Eastwest` somehow, kind of like a bridge between the two? I would emphasize `spiritual` over `religious`, if possible. Maybe `absolute` and/or `self-realization` could be used? JNdas, prabhu, will there be many separate categories here, like at VNN? I think that would allow for wider differences between users and thus attract those with various levels of understanding as well as different faiths, perhaps. My own interest is specifically in God's Loving Grace, in any way, shape or form She may appear. So `Divine Love` is attractive, except that it's connected to Sri Kripalu's Divine Love Mission. `notmybody` comes to mind, too. Anyway, hope this is of some help. Peter ------------------ Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare [This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 05-11-2001).] [This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 05-11-2001).]

Just as long as there aren't any of those swimming sharks with huge teeth or gorillas rudely shaking their backsides, like on VNN. We're all cultured folks here, you may have noticed...

I have a small book from Ramakrishna Mission, by Swami Vivekananda, entitled "Bhakti Yoga". Raganuga is called Para-Bhakti. I'll try quoting a little here: "Wherever there is any bliss, even though in the most sensual of things, there is a spark of that Eternal Bliss which is the Lord Himself." Even in the lowest kinds of attraction there is the germ of divine love. One of the names of the Lord in Sanskrit is Hari, and this means that He attracts all things to Himself. He is in fact the only attraction worthy of human hearts. Who can attract a soul really? Only He! Do you think dead matter can truly attract the soul? It never did and never will. When you see a man going after a beautiful face, do you think that it is the handful of arranged material molecules which really attracts the man? Not at all. Behind those material particles there must be and is the play of divine influence and divine love. The ignorant man does not know it, but yet, conciously or unconciously, he is attracted by it and it alone. So even the lowest forms of attraction derive their power from God Himself. "None, O beloved, ever loved the husband for the husband's sake; it is the atman, the Lord who is within, for whose sake the husband is loved." Loving wives may know this or they may not; it is true all the same. "None, O beloved, ever loved the wife for the wife's sake, but it is the Self in the wife that is loved." Similarly, no one loves a child or anything else in the world except on account of Him who is within. The Lord is the great magnet, and we are all like iron filings, we are being constantly attracted by Him, and all of us are struggling to reach Him. All this struggling of ours in this world is surely not intended for selfish ends. Fools do not know what they are doing; the work of their life is, after all, to approach the great magnet. All the tremendous struggling and fighting in life is intended to make us go to Him ultimately and be one with Him. The Bhakti-yogi, however, knows the meaning of life's struggles; he understands it. He has passed through a long series of these struggles, and knows what they mean. (p,72-3) A ship, all of a sudden, comes near a magnetic rock, and it's iron bolts and bars are all attracted and drawn out, and the planks get loosened and freely float on the water. Divine grace thus loosens the binding bolts and bars of the soul, and it becomes free. So in this renunciation auxiliary to devotion, there is no harshness, no dryness, no struggle, nor suppression. The Bhakta has not to suppress any single one of his emotions, he only strives to intensify them and direct them to God. (p.69) ------------------ Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

There is a similar discussion to this concerning ISKCON and it's leadership on another forum called Dharma-mela. All are welcome: www.islandnet.com/krsna/homepage/istagosi/mela/mela.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Mine English! The grandmother spoke me.... It not I it Magic Goddy. Is guilty. Actually I feel set of good feelings even from those with whom I argue, here there are a lot of raised souls, I speak it completely seriously. What to speak about your wish Peter! For me Radharany it Lord Caytanya, I see as he goes on Navadvipa. before I worshipped Krisna, but to serve Krisna very hardly, and to worship Radharany at me have beaten off desire some devoted here in Russia. If I shall worship Lord Caytanya? Having seen Radharani as Lord Caytanya, devoted ceases to care of itself, it(he) simply goes a trace in a trace where his(its) God has set off. How I shall leave Sri Caytanya? For me it is final item.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, Lord Caitanya came in the mood of Sri Radha and preferred to be worshipped as Her, not Krsna. It is good to serve that mood in Him, which will surely lead to Radhika. If we can accept that Krsna wants only Radha and that our position is to assist in their relationship by connecting to Her, not trying to replace or imitate Her, that is enough for now. Prabhupada once said that every bramacari should fall in love with Srimati Radharani. She is certainly our dearmost friend and Divine Mother, also. When we need emotional support and comfort, She is the one to turn to for shelter, not Krsna. If you feel that closeness with Mahaprabhu it is only due to Her Mahabhava. ALL GORIES TO GAURANGA GAURANGI!

Dear Kailasa, HARIBOL! Prabhu, although I cannot understand your brave attempts at English, it's very obvious that you are a sincere devotee. Please pray to Srimati Radharani Herself, as honestly and intimately as possible, revealing your heart fully to Her only. She is the secret magic ingredient that makes EVERYTHING work! Don't stop until She shows Herself to you personally. Then you will understand everything much better. In these difficult and confusing times, God is very close to protect and guide sincere souls. That is HER role, prabhu, but just for devotees. Trust and believe in your unique relationship with HER, even if others try to discourage you. Worship Krsna, but confide in Radha. Her shelter is absolutely essential on this path, especially now, for all sincere Bhaktas. Srimati and the Holy Names will get you through anything! Respectfully, Peter

___________ Gauracandra posted 05-05-2001 07:20 AM PT (US) I started thinking about this some more and had a wonderful realization. This is in relation to the diversity in Iskcon. Now, I can only speak in regards to my local temple, but I started to visualize all of the people who attend every week and I honestly can't think of a more diverse congregation. We have of course the most commited individuals who are the brahmacharis and brahmacharinis wearing dhotis and saris and who attend all the worship services in the morning. Then of course we have the community devotees who work outside (such as myself). In terms of age, we have young kids running around, and old men. Racially we have blacks, whites, asian (chinese, japanese, and philipino), hispanics, and Indians. We have a parapelegic (paralized from the neck down who is wheeled in front of the deities), we have some local homeless man who has a set of japa mala. He keeps to himself, chants, and then comes for the sunday feast. Every few months there is a really tall african tribal who comes. He is like 6ft 5 inches tall, wears traditional african garb, holds a sort of "danda" walking stick, and has those african plates in his lip. I'm not kidding, he actually has a plate in his lip, and in his ears. But he comes and pays respect to the deities. We have a midget, I swear to God, wearing tilak and dhoti (he's a westerner) who dances in the temple. We have many Indian engineers whoe are very conservative and respectful. They mostly stand with folded hands paying respects to the deities. We have those who are wealthy and those who are poor, and just a large group of middle class working westerners who come. We have one lady who is extremely rich who drives around in a Jaguar. We also have some neighborhood guy who has this big Elvis style hair and sideburns. He never comes to the temple, but loves the sunday feasts. We have Russians, and Mexicans, and an Australian. And I could go on and on. I honestly can't think of any church, temple, synagogue or mosque that I have ever been to having such a wide range of completely different people. But they have all come together under the banner of Sri Caitanya to engage in Hari Kirtana. Just thinking about it started to make me laugh. All glories to Sri Krsna Caitanya. Haribol. Gauracandra ___________ Thank you for a very positive and inspiring post, prabhu. I've copy/pasted it onto the Dharma-mela forum and would like to invite you there. Caution: it can get rather nasty at times...www.islandnet.com/krsna/homepage/istagosi/mela/mela.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Before you quote a scripture it is better to known its contempt, otherwise you may be placed in the role of a goof. dasa dasanudasa Satyaraja dasa<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think you meant `content` of scripture and not `contempt`, prabhu. Looks like you made a `goof`! Must this continue endlessly? I mean REALLY!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ananga posted 05-03-2001 12:59 PM PT (US) Shocking! Scandalous! Such fraud in the guise of religion! Why hasn't someone sued the Isckon and Guaidya Manth for false advertising?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Aparently someone tried awhile back, but the evidence kept coming in and his exhausted emaciated corpse was later discovered, buried deep under several tonnes of paper, at the back of an enormous warehouse, somewhere in Calcutta. Another poor chap did try to sift through the mountainous mess and some time later ended up running off screaming into the night.

PLEASE stop insulting each other's lineage and/or person, prabhus! What good can possibly come out of it? For Her sake, if no other...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Therefore, are these precocious siddha-dehas real siddha-dehas, or only a mere abhasa of them? What is the real gain when one gets such kind of siddha-deha? dasa dasanudasa Satyaraja dasa<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You know what, Satyaraj das prabhu? I don't know because I don't care! Personal gain, whether spiritual or material, is NOT my motivation. Sri Radha (His Divine Grace AND the personification of His internal potency which is the source of ALL other potencies) can use me as She likes, or not, according to Her own sweet will. Your endless highly technical tirades tire me with terminology. Your cautions confuse me, but cannot prevent me from crying out continuously to my Swamini Kishori in helpless hopelessness. What do I know of mechanical sadhana? My connection is PERSONAL NOT PROCESS! What's more, SHE holds on to ME, I don't hold on to HER! You can tell me my life is wasting away and that I should do this or avoid that, but nothing you say will affect me in the least because it's not MY life and never was. I BELONG TO RADHIKA! If She wants to reject me as totally useless and unsalvageable, so be it. My ONLY faith remains in HER ALONE! Quite frankly, I am unable to understand why others don't feel the same, considering Her divine qualities and personality. NO ONE CAN COMPARE WITH HER! Whoever Krsna may be and whatever He may have and may be capable of is ONLY DUE TO HER! As for going through so many lifetimes in order to achieve Krsna prema so as to live happily ever after in Goloka, you can keep your lengthy maps and instructions to yourself. I'm not going anywhere and whatever needs to be achieved SHE will arrange WHEN REQUIRED AS NEEDED FOR HER PURPOSES, NOT MINE. Sure, I'm just a crazy fool, prabhu, but I'm HER fool! That's all that matters anymore to me. So don't confuse me with devotees, vaishnavas, babajis or whatever. I'm nothing going nowhere, but I do know who I belong to and have forsaken everyone and everything for, though I can't even take credit for that. I hear it's called `special mercy`, so what can I do? If this worthless wretch can be of some service, fine. If not, then I guess it's back for more recycling. Nobody and nothing defeats Radharani. She'll get me right in the end. That is my simple faith, prabhu. Please don't mess with it. JAI JAI SRI RADHE JAI!!!

Shvu, My purpose in posting was previously stated as was the basis of my own faith. Obviously I'm not as involved as you in this thread. Actually the Prabhupada quote was more for Satyaraj's benefit. I do not enjoy conflict of any kind and wish I had what it takes to resolve this seemingly endless discussion. That's what this forum's all about though, isn't it? I'll try to contribute more positively next time, God willing. Soul long for now. Peter

CORRECTION: Sorry, meant to say understanding of GURU, not scripture again.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dasha posted 05-01-2001 01:59 PM PT (US) quote: Surrender of the heart alone will suffice and that is uniquely personal, only between you and your God. Don't let anyone or anything come between the two of you. Have faith in God and His Divine Grace alone, Krsna and Radha. So if I understand you well we do not need to take a spiritual master to understand the way back home, back to Godhead. So please can you explain me why did Sri Krsna and Sri Chaitanya who are God Himself, took a spiritual master when they manifest on earth to show us the "dharma" of the age? If you think that you are pure enough to understand the inner instructions of Paramatma in your heart, this is well, but for the commun of the mortal (of whom I am a part), we need the help of the spiritual master to decrypt them. When you are in a labyrinth you may try of your own to get out of it, or else you may ask the help of some one who knows the way. Of course nobody will bother you if you want to do it by yourself, or you may ask to God to show you the way, He will surely do it since He is in your heart, you just have to chant His Holy Names. It may also take a few years, not to say a few lifes. It is all hope to you, but for me the choise is already done. Haribol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It'a matter of faith, prabhu. Raganuga (what this thread is about) differs greatly from Vaidhi in it's interpretation of scripture and understanding of scripture. His Divine Grace remains an absolute necessity in all circumstances. Vaidhi is more of a technical or mechanical approach while Raganuga is more personal. Guru is One and if you truly come to see, that one will be visible in everyone. That vision is only in those who see themselves as the least and attempt to offer service/respects to all. Jijaji meant no disrespect, nor do I. You simply cannot understand his perspective Such misunderstanding often leads to conflict, which is not necessary and only of negative value. In vaidhi some discrimination is necessary, but a unified vision remains our common goal. My post was motivated only from compassion. I'm sorry if you understood otherwise. HARIBOL!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>shvu posted 05-01-2001 09:11 AM PT (US) quote: Why to be so stingy on him? No one has any issue with Prabhupada's literature about his own philosophy. The problem is with his false allegations on Advaita, which he used to show the Ramakrishna mission in a bad light. As one can see, there are people like Aman peter who are still following that trend of bashing Advaita without knowing a thing about it. Just like Prabhupada. Cheers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As usual Shvu, you assume others to be somewhat less than yourself. As a matter of fact, I have been involved with the local Ramakrishna Mission and know the sanyasi in charge personally. I also have in my possession many books purchased from them, as well as others that are relevant to these topics, from many different sources. while obviously not as `scripturally inclined` (some might say `shastrically handicapped`) as yourself and Satyaraj prabhu, I have done some homework over the last 30 years since first becoming involved, yes, through Srila Prabhupada. One pamphlet I picked up from The Ramakrishna Mission is entitled simply `Hinduism` by Swami Lokeswarananda (printed by Ramakrishna Mission): "God is impersonal, without a name and without a form, and this universe is His gross manifestation. In His subtle manisfestation, He is the ultimate in moral values like truth, goodness and beauty. God can also be personal, but only as a symbol and only as a temporary device, since, for most people, it is difficult to conceive of an impersonal God." This and my previous quote from Srila Prabhupada are meant solely as a contribution to the philosophical discussion here. Neither is an expression of my own personal belief system. That revolves only around Srimati Radharani as the personification and source of Divine Grace. My conclusions are based on personal direct experience and merely confirmed by scripture. God must, by definition, remain far beyond any and all limited conception. To say that God is only this or definitely not that seems to me utterly ridiculous and the height of arrogance, which in itself will prevent any actual realization of the Absolute Truth. Still, as long as you're enjoying yourselves, I guess there are worse ways to pass the time. Then again, I'm certain there are much better, as well. HARIBOL!

Srila AC Bhaktivedantha Swami Prabhupada: "Regarding your questions: The spark soul has certainly form which means hands, feet, etc. This we learn from Bhagavad-gita. The body is described there as Vasamsi, which means dress. So unless one has got originally hands and legs, how the dress, coat and pants and shirt, takes such form? Therefore the spirit soul has original form. When he is in the material energy the dress is evolved materially and when he is in the spiritual energy, the dress is evolved spiritually. This is also not very difficult to understand, as our students before coming to my contact, he was supposed to be materially dressed, attached to sense gratification, and after devoting himself in Krishna Consciousness, he is gradually developing a spiritual dress. That means attached to satisfying the senses of the Supreme. Your second question, how the impersonalists mistake the difference between the soul and the Supersoul--The mistake is due to their obstinacy. The impersonalists masquerade as Vedantists, but actually they are defying Vedanta. In the Vedanta it is clearly said, the Original Source of all being; in the Upanisads it is clearly said that the Supreme is the Supreme being of all living beings. So all the Vedas affirm it vehemently that the Supersoul and the soul are two different identities, although qualitatively one. But the impersonalists they accept Vedas as authority, but they go against the verdict of the Vedas. Lord Caitanya has depicted this impersonalist class of men as more dangerous than the Buddhists. The Buddhists plainly declare that they do not accept the authority of the Vedas, but the impersonalists masquerade themselves as followers of Vedas, but actually they are hidden Buddhists. The idea is, if a person is actually fast asleep, it is easier to awake him but if a person pretends to be sleeping but actually is awake, then it is very difficult to wake him up. So from all Sastric point of view, the living entity and the Supreme Lord, or the Supreme Living Entity are always simultaneously different and one. One in quality, and different in quantity. this simple thing is understandable by any common man, but these impersonalists, they will simply invent jugglery of words to mislead innocent people. Therefore Lord Caitanya has warned not to associate with these impersonalist mayavadis because they will spoil one's life by diverting one from devotional service. It is very difficult to bring to reason the obstinate impersonalists. For example, Prahlada Maharaja, such a great authority, could not convert his father to devotional service, who preferred death, and still did not agree to accept that God is different from him. So better to avoid the impersonalists as far as possible."

Re: Preaching and mercy. The most merciful distributor of Lord Caitanya's Sankirtan Movement was undoubtably Sri Nityananda Prabhu. He never philosophized, but humbly BEGGED door-to-door that househoulders should PLEASE PLEASE take the Holy Names even once on their lips. As for the mercy of the spiritual master, we are told that a moment's association or the dust from his lotus feet is what's required. Materialists may see the `need` for some materialistic process leading to so many big powerful organizations that usually end up actually obscuring the simple wondrous process of distributing God's Divine Grace person-to-person. That transmission is done heart-to-heart automatically when one of the hearts is that of a wholly self-realized soul. There simply is no alternative nor will their ever be one. This is not some public relations exercise, after all. It's more like passing the fire, which in this case consists SOLELY of the Holy Names: HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA, KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE, HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE !!! Let's somehow or other try and keep that fire hot in our heart-of-hearts by His Divine Grace, then others may become ignited by our mere presence. That is not worth sacrificing to become a footsoldier in some grand institutional machine. First we realize, then we may be qualified to preach the pure philosophy. Not all pure devotees become gurus or acaryas and not all their followers become pure devotees, many may end up misrepresentatives rather than true representatives. Surrender of the heart alone will suffice and that is uniquely personal, only between you and your God. Don't let anyone or anything come between the two of you. Have faith in God and His Divine Grace alone, Krsna and Radha. Don't let fear, awe or so-called reverence stand in the way of that natural simple sweet intimacy your heart is seeking. Cry for your eternal beloved always and don't allow yourself to become confused or bought off by anyone else when they say that you can't trust your own heart and must follow them instead. Cling to the Holy Names as your very life and soul. Persist and very soon all will become clear. HARIBOL!

...and I like it, too! Maybe you could share it with the dharma-mela since they're into foot fetishists now and obviously in need of some help.

Actually, Madva is right here in the Toronto ISKCON temple and has been for years. He's that really old Indian guy with no teeth that cleans the pots! By the way, Jayasriradhey, that last post was a beauty and really should put an end to what seems more and more to be a rather tiresome personal poking match.