Shakti-Fan

Is Guest trying to infer that by attempting to blaspheme Srila Narayana Maharaja, Guruvani is indirectly glorifying him, just as Sisupala did when he blasphemed Krsna?

Srila Sridhar Maharaja: At present, we are disconnected from the prospect of divine love which we cherish in the innermost quarter of our hearts. If we want to have that privilege very easily and very quickly, we must approach the Lord with plain speaking, and with a naked body and mind, with every-thing exposed. Srila Rupa Goswami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.154) has written: mat-tulyo nasti papatma naparadhi ca kascana parihare 'pi lajja me kim bruve purusottama "My Lord, I feel ashamed. How shall I offer you so many pure things like flowers? Generally, pure things are offered to you, but what about me? I have come with the most filthy thing to offer to you. I feel ashamed. I have come to you, with only my shame, to beg for your mercy. There is no parallel to my sinful, criminal life. Everything that can be conceived of as bad is found in me. It is very difficult even to speak about the characteristics of my heinous sins and crimes. Still, your nature, existence, fame, and benevolence cannot but attract me. You can save me. You can purify me. Hoping against hope, I have come to you. And I have only one solace, that I am the real object of your mercy. Your tendency is to purify the meanest. Those who are the most needy have some claim to your mercy. I am the worst of the needy and the meanest of the mean. This is my only qualification, my only hope to attract your attention and appeal to your magnanimity." Rupa Goswami says in his Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu (1.2.153) that still there is some sort of subconscious element within him: yuvatinam yatha yuni yunanca yuvatau yatha mano 'bhiramate tadvan mano 'bhiramatam tvayi Just as a young boy feels attraction for a young girl, I want that sort of attraction towards you. I want to be engrossed in you, forgetting all material paraphernalia. And by sincere surrender, at once, our progress begins. And the development of that kind of attraction takes us to the topmost rank. I want that intimate connection with you, my Lord. I am the neediest of the needy, but at the same time I have this ambition. I am so disgusted with the world outside that I want the most intense and comprehensive relationship with you. With this attitude, the surrendering process begins and rises step by step. I want that standard of divine love, of intimacy with you. I want to dive deep within you.

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-"The absolute conception and the relative consideration", Sridhar Maharaja. Womens position in relation to men's position is part of the relative consideration. The sages applied the absolute conception to the relative position of men and women. Part of the relativity is that they are in male bodies. There's a time to view the absolute and a time to view the relative but in this system we never view the relative outside of relation with the absolute.

If Vaisnava nuns wrote sastra then there would have been similar statements about men. It is important for the aspiring sadaka to avoid illicit connection with the opposite sex.

Swami Bhakti Sundar Govinda said, "my religion is finding fault with myself."

PS The Alanatha das quoted is most likely not Paramadvaiti Maharaja.

Sripad Paramadvaiti Maharaja received both hari nama (first initiation and the name Alanatha Prabhu) and diksa mantras (second initiation) from Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. A few years after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada he received sannyasa (sannyasa mantras and had the name Swami Maharaja appended to Alanatha) from an ISKCON guru and was then was rejected by that guru when he took shelter of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. He then took sannyasa (sannyasa mantras and The name Bhakti Aloka Paramadvaiti Maharaja ) from his siksa guru, Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Srila Sridhar Maharaja received the sannyasa mantras directly from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. He gave the sannyasa mantras to Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja who in turn gave then to Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

All pre-religious systems such as modern psychology and Zen etc. as well as all true religious systems teach us not to blame anyone but ourselves for the predicament in which we find ourselves. As aspiring followers of Gaudiya Vaisnavism we accept that our predicament is that we are adverse to the service of Sri Krsna from time immemorial. In our practical lives it often manifests as a lack of interest in chanting Krsna Nama. So it is impossible to blame others for our lack of attraction to Krsna Nama, and in fact, impossible that others are responsible for our fallen condition. cbrahma in many posts whines and blames others for his own personal predicament. Of course cbrahma while certainly a classic self-deceiver seems also to have have hidden motives. Whether these motives are consciously known to him, only he and the Lord knows.

I see the smile symbol and I know that you are not completely serious. But how do you know you would recognize a self effulgent acarya if you saw or heard him? Self effulgence is like beauty, its in the eye of the beholder.

Here's a part of a piece by Narasingha Maharaja: "Gour Mohan De, a pure devotee of Krsna, desired the very best for his son. "Please bless him," he used to say, whenever holy men used to visit his home. "Please bless my son that he will become a great devotee of Srimati Radharani." Srila Prabhupada said, "My father also trained me and instructed me to his best capacity, and he prayed for me that Radharani may be pleased upon me, and I think by my father's blessings and grace, I may have come to this position, and I have gotten into relationship with His Divine Grace Om Visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja also by his mercy. So it is Krsna's grace that I got a good father and also a good spiritual master." What else did Gour Mohan desire for his son? "He should learn to play mrdanga very nicely and he should engage in the worship of Sri Sri Radha-Govinda."" This is also confirmed in Bhaktivedanta purport in S.B. that I can't quote at this time. (can somebody find it?) Where does this fit it your line of reasoning?

I first noticed you raising this point I think about a couple of weeks ago. Everytime I see it I look at the several posts done before yours and I don't see anybody promoting a particular guru to you. What your motive is exactly its hard to determine although you obviously have an axe to grind with persons who promote their guru. It appears that the tactic you are employing is the classic "straw man argument". Here's what wikipedia says about it: A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact misleading, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted. Its name is derived from the practice of using straw men in combat training. In such training, a scarecrow is made in the image of the enemy with the single intent of attacking it.<sup id="_ref-0" class="reference">[1]</sup> It is occasionally called a straw dog fallacy<sup id="_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup> or a scarecrow argument.

The same argument could be used against Krsna's postion. How could Krsna allow himself to be "killed" by a hunter? Srila Saraswati Thakur said, "religion means proper adjustment", and Srila Sridhar Maharaja was quite fond of that remark. Do you really think that that the attitude you are displaying in the above statement is the "proper adjustment"? Why not follow Srimad Bhagavatam on this: tad vag visargo janatagha viplavo yasmin prati-slokam abaddhavaty api namany anantasya yaso 'nkitani yat srnvanti gayanti grnanti sadhavah A Vaisnava aparadha is like a crime against a Vaisnava. In worldly criminal law the most important element is intent. That is a reflection of the spiritual reality. Here the issue is not whether there was intention to distort the facts of the history of the Gaudiya Math but was there any intention on Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's part to harm Srila Sridhar Maharaja's reputation? Or was Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada merely trying to insulate his neophyte followers from outside influences? I can't quote passages at this point but if you go back and listen to the recordings of the conversations of Srila Sridhar Maharaja with Srila Prabhuapada's disciples in the early '80s you will find the later to be his tenor. You can also look at the book "Sri Guru and His Grace". Otherwise to take your position, then Srila Sridhar Maharaja's preaching to Prabhupada's disciples at that time could be seen as a disingenuous ploy to lure those devotees into becoming members of the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math. In fact that is what the GBC was alleging at that time. What kind of service is that to put this kind of thing on a public forum?

I don't get it, you seem so intellegent. Why would you put such a thing on a public forum. Before you say something that strong it should be authorized by higher authority. And we know you have a higher authority. If you don't have that authorization, then don't do it. Its tough living in this world and trying to be KC. We all know but get a grip man! We should give you an electronic slap in the face and you should say, "thanks, I needed that".

In the last few days a number of posters showed where Prabhupada himself appears to contradict the above quote. We need to get beyond semantics and harmonize the apparent contradictions. At least you must admit that once we read the books we will be taking in their content. The only content within the books is not just statements to read the books, although those statements are there within the books to encourage us to continue reading and come back tommorrow and everyday of our lives. Within the books we find the process of hearing from pure devotees glorified. We hear about the glories of the Holy Name of Krsna. We read or hear about Krsna's or Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhus pastimes. We read about the lives of the great devotees and many more topics. We are not impersonalists and everything in Prabhupada's books "is "an open secret" even the most confidential topics. "By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop." Revelation from the Absolute comes down to us in the relativity of the different stages of the process of suddha bhakti. For one devotee, it is revealed that Krsna is God and that these books are non-different from Him. On another level it is possible that Krsna can show that His Name is non-different from His form. He can reveal His divine form. He can reveal to your eternal form and service within His lila. There is so much variety and it is all contained within the passage from Srila Prabhupada's letter to Brahmarupa Prabhu that you have posted. Srila Sridhar Maharaja translated a phrase from Caitanya Caritamrta, eka bindu jagat dubaya, "one drop can inundate the entire universe, a drop of the infinite is infinite." So if you have so much of an attraction for Prabhupada's books then try to discuss what is in them. And try to give this in a positive way. The fighting and arguing over these issues is getting old and tiring. The real discussions of Krsna Consciousness are always enlivening and ever fresh like Krsna Himself.

I am hereby requesting a cease fire agreement on this thread.

What to speak of the works of Srila Saraswati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, there are those who challenge the authenticity of the Brahma Samhita, saying it so much supports his conception, that it must have been written by Mahaprabhu Himself. In Srila Sridhar Maharaja's opinion, if that be the case, its value has increased ad infinitum. Sripad Bhakti Sudhir Goswami Maharaja Daily Darshan Tuesday, December 17, 2002

Govinda dasi in Honolulu on Jan 26, 2003 (pg.3) "...He would walk in, and he would even pose for us. Sometimes he posed, he showed us how a dhoti was wrapped one day. He wrapped a dhoti—an elaborate dhoti, the kind Krsna wears—and stood in a threefold posture." <o:p></o:p> Devotee: The early paintings have a look of pastel, and the colors of Krsna’s form are so, so attractive.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> Govinda dasi: They’re full of bhakti. When the spiritual master is present, he has the Midas touch. He touches anything and it’s surcharged with bhakti. He touched us, and we were infused with bhakti. Look at the stuff we did; we were 20-year-old kids, green behind the ears. It was because his energy was working through us; he was using us, we were willing warm bodies, and he guided us from within, he guided us from without, he watched over us, and he was over our shoulder. For example, that original purple Gita, I was staying with Srila Prabhupada in LA, and I drew the cover picture for it. He would come shuffling into my room and look over my shoulder while I was drawing the picture. Macmillan cut the book down; he didn’t like that. He wanted it to be with all the purports, so the next one was. So he wasn’t happy with the fact that they wanted not so much repetition. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> And then so far as the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, you mentioned that earlier, because that’s going to be on the press next. That book, we did the drawings while we were living with Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada described how the drawings should look. We were very poor in those days, so we didn’t do full color; we did black-and-white drawings. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> I had never been to India, and I had never been to Jagannath Puri temple. And there’s a drawing in there of Jagannath up on an altar, for those of you who have seen it. Maybe a lot of you haven’t even seen it. But Srila Prabhupada described in detail how Jagannath was up on this altar, how the room was dark—it’s dark in those big old Orissan temples—and how the pujari is sitting there and receiving the flowers. He would tell us each step of the way for these drawings. And the same way with the early paintings of Jadurani. Jadurani painted those paintings in the next room, Srila Prabhupada was living in the New York apartment, he was living in the bedroom—he did everything in this one room—and in his living room, me and Gaurasaundara and Jadurani sat and did drawings all day. He would walk in, and he would even pose for us. Sometimes he posed, he showed us how a dhoti was wrapped one day. He wrapped a dhoti—an elaborate dhoti, the kind Krsna wears—and stood in a threefold posture. His favorite pose was Lord Nrsimhadeva. He would come in and roar, and you would see the whites of his eyes. [devotees: “Haribol!”] And we were just new kids—but he was actually really into Nrsimha-lila big time—but he showed us each step of the way. We can’t think that ‘We did this,’ anymore than we can think ‘Hayagriva edited this, Hayagriva did this.’ <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada was working through us all, and the people who came to think that ‘I am the doer’ and ‘I am doing this’—and I know a few, and they’re not around anymore. One of them was my ex-husband. Srila Prabhupada said, “He suffered from too much intelligence.” He left because he was brilliant. He thought that he knew more than his guru. Srila Prabhupada said, “He’s suffering from too much intelligence; he thinks he knows more than his guru.” He was brilliant, there’s no question; he wrote books at 21 years old. But that doesn’t cut it. Srila Prabhupada came from Krsna-loka to write some books, print some books; and the fact that they have been altered is the worst thing that could happen. Everything else will be lost in the wash, but his books… He used to say that “Even if we lose all the temples, you have my books.” But we don’t have his books. My point is, his books have been—until the past year—completely lost, except in my bookcase, and so forth. So this is a very significant thing, that he oversaw the production with the artists and the writers, and he infused the work with his own bhakti. That’s why those early writings and those early paintings are so… shining. I look at this painting, and I don’t know how I did it. I look at that one, and I don’t know…[note: Srila Prabhupada’s room in New Navadvipa is decorated with several paintings done by Govinda dasi and other artists directly under Srila Prabhupada’s supervision.] I don’t have the same mood now; I think none of us really do, as we did while Srila Prabhupada was present.<o:p></o:p> Devotee: The early paintings have a look of pastel, and the colors of Krsna’s form are so, so attractive.<u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> Govinda dasi: They’re full of bhakti. When the spiritual master is present, he has the Midas touch. He touches anything and it’s surcharged with bhakti. He touched us, and we were infused with bhakti. Look at the stuff we did; we were 20-year-old kids, green behind the ears. It was because his energy was working through us; he was using us, we were willing warm bodies, and he guided us from within, he guided us from without, he watched over us, and he was over our shoulder. For example, that original purple Gita, I was staying with Srila Prabhupada in LA, and I drew the cover picture for it. He would come shuffling into my room and look over my shoulder while I was drawing the picture. Macmillan cut the book down; he didn’t like that. He wanted it to be with all the purports, so the next one was. So he wasn’t happy with the fact that they wanted not so much repetition. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> And then so far as the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, you mentioned that earlier, because that’s going to be on the press next. That book, we did the drawings while we were living with Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada described how the drawings should look. We were very poor in those days, so we didn’t do full color; we did black-and-white drawings. <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> I had never been to India, and I had never been to Jagannath Puri temple. And there’s a drawing in there of Jagannath up on an altar, for those of you who have seen it. Maybe a lot of you haven’t even seen it. But Srila Prabhupada described in detail how Jagannath was up on this altar, how the room was dark—it’s dark in those big old Orissan temples—and how the pujari is sitting there and receiving the flowers. He would tell us each step of the way for these drawings. And the same way with the early paintings of Jadurani. Jadurani painted those paintings in the next room, Srila Prabhupada was living in the New York apartment, he was living in the bedroom—he did everything in this one room—and in his living room, me and Gaurasaundara and Jadurani sat and did drawings all day. He would walk in, and he would even pose for us. Sometimes he posed, he showed us how a dhoti was wrapped one day. He wrapped a dhoti—an elaborate dhoti, the kind Krsna wears—and stood in a threefold posture.His favorite pose was Lord Nrsimhadeva. He would come in and roar, and you would see the whites of his eyes. [devotees: “Haribol!”] And we were just new kids—but he was actually really into Nrsimha-lila big time—but he showed us each step of the way. We can’t think that ‘We did this,’ anymore than we can think ‘Hayagriva edited this, Hayagriva did this.’ <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> <u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada was working through us all, and the people who came to think that ‘I am the doer’ and ‘I am doing this’—and I know a few, and they’re not around anymore. One of them was my ex-husband. Srila Prabhupada said, “He suffered from too much intelligence.” He left because he was brilliant. He thought that he knew more than his guru. Srila Prabhupada said, “He’s suffering from too much intelligence; he thinks he knows more than his guru.” He was brilliant, there’s no question; he wrote books at 21 years old. But that doesn’t cut it. Srila Prabhupada came from Krsna-loka to write some books, print some books; and the fact that they have been altered is the worst thing that could happen. Everything else will be lost in the wash, but his books… He used to say that “Even if we lose all the temples, you have my books.” But we don’t have his books. My point is, his books have been—until the past year—completely lost, except in my bookcase, and so forth. So this is a very significant thing, that he oversaw the production with the artists and the writers, and he infused the work with his own bhakti. That’s why those early writings and those early paintings are so… shining. I look at this painting, and I don’t know how I did it. I look at that one, and I don’t know…[note: Srila Prabhupada’s room in New Navadvipa is decorated with several paintings done by Govinda dasi and other artists directly under Srila Prabhupada’s supervision.] I don’t have the same mood now; I think none of us really do, as we did while Srila Prabhupada was present.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>

The effects of Vaisnava aparadha directed against that sadhu. Although that aparadha is based on misconceptions, you are still getting the reaction. The psychologists call it cognative dissonance, and it is manifesting as selective reading of Srila Prabhupada's books. What is your tactic when you come accross a purport where Srila Prabhupada says that one should take sannyasa at the age of 50? Block it out, skip the passage, pretend that you didn't see it? I'm in the same condition, but those purports should burn our hearts because despite hearing so many instructions on the matter we are attached to material things.When Srila Prabhupada said, "my guru maharaja, he saved me", what was the context? The context was that his guru was coming to him in dreams and "forcing" him to come out of household life and take sannyasa. So we say at Vyasa Puja, "Prabhupada saved me", and then we go home and engage in sense gratification. Also Srila Narayana Maharaja played an integral part in the unfolding of Srila Prabhupada's sannyasa initiation lila and that is an historical fact. Srila Narayana Maharaja has been a sanyassi for almost 55 years. Yes, its very heavy and sometimes I also cannot tolerate my own fear of what I see as the burning fire of renunciation. But one should be honest and admit their own fallen position. Household life is a compromise, but not for older men. For older men it is abject degradation and spiritual failure. If we don't believe this then how will we ever get out of that deep dark well? Krsna is very tricky. I would be careful about what you say such as "I just get so discouraged and depressed that I wish I had never heard of Hare Krishna", just because a sadhu is preaching that this world is a cesspool and we should give it up as offering to Krsna. Remember that Krsna as paramatma is the "source of memory, knowledge and forgetfullness. Even the karmis know, "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it." Fools rush in (to Vaisnava aparadha) where angels fear to tread. Be an angel and have sweet dreams. "Be careful you are dealing with Krsna."

Nice dream. So now we should all take a vow not to be so "harsh" with others. By the way the prison guru was a very sweet person. He didn't become weird until he became an unauthorized guru. It was a very strange and unique situation.

I don't know about that. If rtvik philosphy falls into the wrong hands then an inexperienced person can come to conclusion that there is no reason to associate with devotees of any type in this world. On the other hand if one really is niskincana, has nothing in this world and is completely dependent on Krsna they may retire to a bhajan kutir and take only the Name and read sastra. But that is a very advanced stage of bhajananandi and not to imitate. So the concept of nirjana bhajan is there. But obviously if one is very neophyte and not trained up properly they may take the sastra which obviously includes Prabhupada's books in quite the wrong way. In the mid 70's there was a prison preaching program in California. One inmate was a charasmatic impersonalist, ganja guru and had a small following. This inmate was doing a life without parole sentence. He was given a number of Prabhupada's books but after a while the devotees stoped the program and he was left on his own. Twenty years later some of the people he had converted and "initiated" started showing up especially at ISKCON temples in Southern California. The self-proclaimed prison guru was preaching a strange mix of Charlie Manson-like apocolyptic philosophy and Krsna Consciousness. The entire episode was quite bizzare to say the least. In fact in his correspondences the bogus prison guru was quite delusional and very scary. The prison guru thought that everything that he was doing by authorized by Srila Prabhupada. He thought that Prabhupada was speaking to him directly, encouraging him in his ganja program. This is an extreme example of what can happen when a so-called follower has no service connection under the higher guidance of an advanced sadhu. And personally I don't care where anyone finds higher guidance as long as its coming in paramapara and genuine. If I wanted to be a lobbyist, then I would do just that in Washington D.C. At least I'd get paid for it, but really I am not interested enough to give the effort.

Ah Ha! Here is Mister Aurobindo Ghosh!

Also, here you seem to be implying that no association with devotees in this world has any value because you can associate with the highest devotee in his books. Yet in his books he is repeating the instructions of the past acaryas that we should associate with devotees, and specifically devotees who are more advanced than ourselves. How do you justify such a glaring contradiction in your conception of Krsna Consciousness? And how can you read Srila Prabhupada's books and ignore the hundreds of times this major canon of Krsna bhakti is mentioned?

Come on if I was making an absolute statement that, "Prabhupada is not accesible by his books", then I would be completely contradicting my own post. I don't see how you can construe that kind of blanket statement from what I wrote. You need to go back and read it again.