Shakti-Fan

I don't see that Anadi was alledging that, "one of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's purports does not stand the proof against revealed writings". If you follow the flow he seemed to be saying that every thing a sadhu or guru says must have a sastric basis. Anadi said previously, "As long as "theist's quoting Srila Prabhupada" is followed by wrong interpretations which he sustains by improper evidence from smriti, I can hardly accept them as the ultimate conclusion." He's saying that he considers Theist's "wrong interpretations" to be the problem.

deva-dviñäà nigama-vartmani niñöhitänäà pürbhir mayena vihitäbhir adåçya-türbhiù lokän ghnatäà mati-vimoham atipralobhaà veñaà vidhäya bahu bhäñyata aupadharmyam SYNONYMS deva-dviñäm—of those who were envious of the devotees of the Lord; nigama—the Vedas; vartmani—on the path of; niñöhitänäm—of the well situated; pürbhiù—by rockets; mayena—made by the great scientist Maya; vihitäbhiù—made by; adåçya-türbhiù—unseen in the sky; lokän—the different planets; ghnatäm—of the killers; mati-vimoham—bewilderment of the mind; atipralobham—very attractive; veñam—dress; vidhäya—having done so; bahu bhäñyate—will talk very much; aupadharmyam—subreligious principles. TRANSLATION When the atheists, after being well versed in the Vedic scientific knowledge, annihilate inhabitants of different planets, flying unseen in the sky on well-built rockets prepared by the great scientist Maya, the Lord will bewilder their minds by dressing Himself attractively as Buddha and will preach on subreligious principles. PURPORT This incarnation of Lord Buddha is not the same Buddha incarnation we have in the present history of mankind. According to Çréla Jéva Gosvämé, the Buddha incarnation mentioned in this verse appeared in a different Kali age. In the duration of life of one Manu there are more than seventy-two Kali-yugas, and in one of them the particular type of Buddha mentioned here would appear. Lord Buddha incarnates at a time when the people are most materialistic and preaches common-sense religious principles. Such ahiàsä is not a religious principle itself, but it is an important quality for persons who are actually religious. It is a common-sense religion because one is advised to do no harm to any other animal or living being because such harmful actions are equally harmful to he who does the harm. But before learning these principles of nonviolence one has to learn two other principles, namely to be humble and to be prideless. Unless one is humble and prideless, one cannot be harmless and nonviolent. And after being nonviolent one has to learn tolerance and simplicity of living. One must offer respects to the great religious preachers and spiritual leaders and also train the senses for controlled action, learning to be unattached to family and home, and enacting devotional service to the Lord, etc. At the ultimate stage one has to accept the Lord and become His devotee; otherwise there is no religion. In religious principles there must be God in the center; otherwise simple moral instructions are merely subreligious principles, generally known as upadharma, or nearness to religious. (Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Srimad Bhagavatam 2:7:38. text and purport.) Will the REAL Lord Buddha please stand up. As usual there is minor controversey over informations that are found, and due to contextual reporting over vast areas of time confusion often arrises. Actual controversy is very minimal, usually it's our linited vision and experience that causes it due to immaturity, etc. So we are not trying to introduce conflicting ideas here, rather we are trying to see the overall picture and conlusive understanding of who is who, and why it is said to be so or otherwise. What stand you take on the issue that is not contested. "This verse shows that Lord Buddha was an incarnation of the Supreme Being who would appear in Gaya, a town in central India. Nevertheless, some historians may point out that Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, was actually born in Lumbini, Nepal, and that his mother was Queen Mahamaya. Therefore, they might fell that this verse is innacurate. But Siddhartha became the Buddha after he attained spiritual enlightenment during his meditation under the Bo tree in Gaya. This means that his spiritual realization was his second and most important birth. Futhermore, Siddhartha's mother, Queen Mahamaya, died several days after Siddhartha's birth, leaving him to be raised by his grandmother, Anjana. So the prediction in the Bhagavatam is accurate."(Stephen Knapp. 1997. THE VEDIC PROPHECIES: A NEW LOOK INTO THE FUTURE", page 4.) Where seeming controversy enters is for instance the Book of Samskara, page 27, says: "This is the Buddha we all know, namely Sakya Muni, who took birth 563 BC in Kapilavastu (now in Nepal), as the son of Queen Maya devi. This Buddha is not the avatara described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as the son of Anjana, born in the province of Gaya (Bihar)(S.B. 1.3.24), who taught the original Buddhism. Unfortunately, Sakhya Simha Buddha is now considered THE Buddha, although he was just a scholar with some inner realizations who later spread atheistic and nihilistic philosophies." In reading "Vaisnava Vijaya: The Life History of Mayavadism" by Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja and there he argues that there are two Buddhas. He bases his argument primarily on the fact that the Bhagavatam mentions the birthplace and parents of the Visnu-avatara Buddha and that these differ from those of Siddhartha Buddha (or Sakya Singha Buddha). Visnu-avatara Buddha was born in Gaya; Siddhartha took birth in Kapilavastu, Nepal and went to Gaya for enlightenment. The author argues that Sankaracarya deliberately made the two Buddhas out to be one-and-the-same. Although, interestingly, he says that references to a Buddha in Visnu Purana, Vayu Purana, Garuda Purana, Skandha Purana, and Devi Bhagavata "without an exception [...] are all only referring to and mentioning Sakya Singha and not Visnu Avatara Buddha." So either the Puranas are also confused, or they are prophecysing a mundane--yet highly influential--philosopher. There's a precedent for the latter, I guess, in Canakya's mention in Twelth Canto of the Bhagavatam. On page 24, the author states: "Our revered gurudeva, Srila Prabhupada Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami revealed that Sakya Singha Buddha was merely a vastly learned person who had attained some inner realizations." We also recall reading years ago in Satsvarupa Maharaja's "Journals and Poems" an account of Maharaja's preparations to visit Japan. He was reading about Buddhism but was informed by someone (HH Bhakti Caru Maharaja) that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura considered the Buddha of modern Buddhism to be different from Visnu-avatara Buddha. In the tradition of Madhwacarya, Sri Vadiraj Tirtha says: OM srI bhuddhAya namaH, OM srI kalkIne namaH buddhAvatArakavi baddhAnukaMpakuru baddhAJNjalau mayi dayAm.h | shauddhodanipramukha saiddhAntikA sugama bauddhAgamapraNayana | kruddhAhitAsuhR^itisiddhAsikheTadhara shuddhAshvayAnakamalA | shuddhAntamAMruchipi maddhAkhilAN^ga nija maddhAva kalkyabhidha bhoH || 32|| There was a time, when the whole world (kaliyuga) was full of divine culture and vaidic (sacred) environment and at the same time many demons (asuras) were also born and started following the divine culture and learning divine knowledge. Because of this dharma started decaying (spoilt) in their hands. During that time for the king of Shakya by name Shudhodhana a baby was born. It is understood that Sri Paramathma in the form of this baby started talking and preached that this world is void (shunya, empty) and all things which are happening are all miseries. This is suppose to be Bhuddha philosophy. (Sri Hari who is in the form of Baby has preached this). In order to prove this philosophy is true to the people Sri Hari has swallowed all the weapons which devataas has attacked to the baby. After seeing these wonders and these incidents the King Shuddodaka and his followers started believing the new philosophy and started practising the same, by leaving aside the vedic philosophy. After sometime the Paramathma who was in the form of baby has disappeared and Shuddodaka son appeared again. Shuddodaka son grown up as Bhudda started preaching Bhudda philosophy which Paramathma has publicised previously. Even in Devaloka (adobe) Sri Paramathma has preached devataas (demi gods) the real essence of Bhudda philosophy which he has preached as Bhudda in this world. Sri Paramathma preached demi gods the essence of Bhudda philosophy which is publishised as 'Prashanthavidya' which even Shuddodaka's son Bhudda and his followers cannot understand this philosophy. By this prayer the saint Sri Vadiraja is praying Sri Hari who is in the form of Bhudda to be kind to him by doing bhuddanjali. Sri Vadiraja is praying Sri Hari who is in the form of Sri Kalki as one who is destroying (killing) bewildered enemies and one who is wearing (holding) sword and shield and sitting on top of the pleasant horse. His body with all organs of the body are shining like splendour and Sri Vadiraja is praying that he is his own person who has to protect him. NOTE: The original preaching of Bhudda philosophy was preached and publisised by Sri Narayana in the form of Bhudda. The teachings are meant in two ways. The original meaning was told to demi-gods or devataas by Himself in deva loka (adobe). But the sinful asuras or demons had taken (understood) His teaching with wrongful meaning and started practising the same by blaming the vaidic dharma. Due to this the Paramathma (Lord Narayana) will incarnate to get love from everyone, from the Asuras (demoniac) to Devataas (demigods and devotees), this has been foretold in Bhagavatha prathama scanda chapter 32 shloka 24., refered to below as Bhagavata Purana 1:3:24. In order to attract the Asuras who are enemies of devataas Sri Hari will incarnate as Bhudda as son of Jinana in the place called Gaya in the land of Magadha. This has been told in Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya Chapter 32 shloka 139. Further, it has also been told that after completing 1000 years of Kaliyuga when all the devataas who were there in that yuga reached adobe and one who is killed by (destroyed by) Rudra by name Tripurasura was reborn in this world. At that time even Sri Vedavysa has already disappeared from our vision and the divine culture of Vaishnavaism was existent only by removing all faulty practices. At that time even demons had the opportunity to learn divine knowledge. But devataas and Paramathma did not like the idea of demons gaining divine knowledge. All devataas went to the ocean of milk where Sri Hari is residing and prayed him to bless them the solution for the above scene. During the same time in the place called Gaya (land of Magadha) Tripurasura was born to Shuddodana or Jinana. Paramathma disappeared the new born child and incarnated as a child. When Shuddodaka started doing ritual for the new born baby, the baby started smiling. They all stunned by the happening and the baby started preaching the new siddhanta called Bhudda sidhanta. Because of the prevailing situation ie divine culture they all did not believe the new philosophy, Paramathma remembered (called) his devataas and those devataas started launching different weapons on the new born baby. But that baby swallowed all the weapons like trishula etc and even when Vishnu attacked the baby with his discuss (chakra), even that the paramathma in the form baby made it as its seat and sat. On seeing the wonders of this child, Shuddodana and his followeres started believing and accepted the new philosophy by leaving divine culuture which they were following. After that the Paramathma disappeared from there and preached the real meaning of the new philosophy to the devataas, but demons were attracted by this new preaching and started following the same. Even before this incident there is mention in Bhagavatha that Bhudda manifested earlier to attract Tripurasura's wives. The Bhudda who was born during 3000 AD is therefore accrding to him, not the incarnation of Sri Narayana. Goutama Bhudda is one who has publicised the Bhudda philosophy which was preached by Sri Narayana as a child. It should be assumed that Goutama Bhudda is not the manifestation of Sri Narayana (Madhusudhan Rao. 24th June 1997. Madhva Cyber Sanga.)(Acharya Saanur Bhima Bhattaru. 1995. Sri Vadiraja Virachita Sri DashAvatAra Stutih. Published by Sri Parimala Samshodhana and Publishing Mandira Nanajangud - Bangalore)

I Googled this and found it on http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/demigods.htm

Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja in his book "Vaisnava Vijaya" gives a thorough description plus various evidences regarding who was the Siddhartha Buddha and so on. Vadiraja Tirtha from Madhva line (15th century) writes: om sri buddhaya namah, om sri kalkine namah buddhavatarakavi baddhanukampakuru baddhanjalau mayi dayam kuru sauddhodanipramukha saiddhantika 'sugama bauddhagamapranayana kruddhahitasuhrtisiddhasikhetadhara suddhasvayanakamala suddhantam rucipimaddhakhilanga nija maddhava kalkyabhidha bhoh 32 anvaya: sauddhodanipramukha saiddhantika = one who is the son of Suddhodana and preaches the Buddha philosophy in public, asugama = cannot understand, bauddhagama = devatas (demigods) who are intellectuals (jnanis) liked by the philosophy which is named Buddha, pranayana = one who is created, kavibaddhanukampa = king among jnanis (intellectuals), buddhavatara = Sri Hari who manifested as Buddha, baddhanjalu = saluting through hands, mayi = myself, dayam kuru = be kind (bless me), kruddha = got wild, ahita = enemies, asuhrti = matters concerning to stealing of life (pranapahara), siddha = getting ready, asikheta = one who is having sword and shield (gurane), suddhasvayana = one who is having pleasant horse as the vehicle, kamalasuddhanta = one who has got Sri Laksmi as queen (one who is staying in Sri Laksmi's palace), rucipimaddhakhilanga = one who is covered by the radiance with all organs of the body, kalkyabhidha = named as Kalki, bhoh = one who is Sri Hari, mam = myself, addha = more, ava = protect. "There was a time, when the whole world (in Kali-yuga) was full of divine culture and Vaidic (sacred) environment and at the same time many demons (asuras) were also born and started following the divine culture and learning divine knowledge. Because of this dharma started to decay in their hands. "During that time for the king of Sakya by name Suddhodana a baby was born. It is understood that Sri Paramatma in the form of this baby started talking and preached that this world is void (sunya, empty) and all things which are happening are all miseries. This is supposed to be Buddha philosophy. (Sri Hari in the form of baby has preached this). "In order to prove to the people this philosophy is true Sri Hari has swallowed all the weapons by which devatas has attacked the baby. After seeing these wonders and these incidents the King Suddhodana and his followers started believing the new philosophy and started practicing the same by leaving aside the Vedic philosophy. "After sometime the Paramatma who was in the form of baby has disappeared and Suddhodana's son appeared again. Suddhodana's son grown up as Buddha and started preaching Buddha philosophy which Paramatma has publicized previously. Even in Devaloka (adobe of demigods) Sri Paramatma has preached to devatas (demigods) the real essence of Buddha philosophy which He has preached as Buddha in this world. Sri Paramatma preached to demigods the essence of Buddha philosophy which is published as 'Prasantavidya' which even Suddhodana's son Buddha and his followers cannot understand. "Sri Vadiraja is praying to Sri Hari in the form of Buddha to be kind to him by doing buddhanjali. Sri Vadiraja is praying to Sri Hari in the form of Sri Kalki as one who is destroying (killing) bewildered enemies and one who is wearing (holding) sword and shield and sitting on the pleasant horse. His body with all organs of the body are shining like splendor and Sri Vadiraja is praying that He personally protects him." PS: The original Buddha philosophy was preached and published by Sri Narayana in the form of Buddha. The preaching is meant in two ways. The original meaning was told to demigods or devatas by himself in Devaloka. But the sinful asuras or demons understood his preaching wrongly and started practicing the same by blaming the Vaidic dharma. Like this Paramatma will incarnate to get love from asuras to devatas as has been told in Bhagavata Purana, Prathama Skanda, chapter 32, sloka 24. In order to attract the asuras who are enemies of devatas Sri Hari will incarnate as Buddha as son of Jinana in the place called Gaya in the land of Magadha. This has been told in Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya, chapter 32, sloka 139. Further, it has also been told that after completing 1000 years of Kali-yuga when all the devatas who were there in that yuga reached Lord's abode, Tripurasura, who is killed by Rudra, was reborn in this world. At that time even Sri Vedavyasa has disappeared and divine culture was existent by removing all faulty practices. At that time even demons had the opportunity to learn divine knowledge. But devatas and Paramatma did not like the idea of demons gaining divine knowledge. All devatas went to the ocean of milk where Sri Hari is residing and prayed to Him to bless them with the solution. During the same time in the place called Gaya (land of Magadha) Tripurasura was born to Suddhodana or Jinana. Paramatma disappeared from the newborn child and incarnated as a child. When Suddhodana started doing ritual for the newborn baby, the baby started smiling. They were all stunned by this happening and the baby started preaching the new siddhanta called Buddha siddhanta. Because of the prevailing situation, i.e. divine culture, they all did not believe the new philosophy, Paramatma called His devatas and they started launching different weapons on the newborn baby. But that baby swallowed all the weapons like trisula etc. and even when Visnu attacked the baby with his discus (cakra), the Paramatma in the form of baby made it its seat. On seeing the wonders of this child, Suddhodana and his followers started believing and accepted the new philosophy by leaving divine culture which they were following. After that the Paramatma disappeared from there and preached the real meaning of the new philosophy to the devatas but demons were attracted by this new preaching and started following the same. Even before this incident there is a mention in Bhagavata Purana that Buddha manifested earlier to attract Tripurasura's wives. The Buddha who was supposedly born in 563 BC is not the incarnation of Sri Narayana. Gautama Buddha is one who has publicized the Buddha philosophy which was preached by Sri Narayana as a child. It should be assumed that Gautama Buddha is not the manifestation of Sri Narayana.

Yet still devotees are arguing over the meaning of the purports, endlessly, especially concerning the origin of the soul and guru tattva. These arguments go on because there is no "living" authority that all accept who can act as a supreme authority. You are leaving it to Caitya-guru to tell you which side of the arguments of interpretation to follow. But there is no way for you or any conditioned soul to know if they are following Caitya-guru or their own imagination. Also if every neophyte devotee is following Caitya-guru then why are we fighting in the first place? It's an endless circular argument that many have experienced while preaching to Born Again Christians. It seems as if you are overlaying some of the underpinings of Protestant theology onto Krsna Consciousness. I have always thought that both hard and soft rtvikism were derived from modern Protestant, especially evangelical thought.

Everything is simultaneously one and different from itself. This is the basis of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy. In the above quotes given by Anadi concerning the ten types of evidence, and the zabda, or zruti, accepted as the root evidence, the difference between sastra and sadhu is brought into focus. Where Thakur Bhakivinode and Sridhar Maharaja are explaining how the sastras are the words of the sadhus the oneness is being brought into focus. Both aspects must be harmonized. So in and of itself, your objection to Anadis points are illogical and invalid.

<table border="0" width="800"><tbody><tr><td width="60%"> All Will Be In Vain Tridandi Gosvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja<o:p></o:p> Oahu, Hawaii: Jan. 19, 2002 (Evening - Part 1)<o:p></o:p> All glories to Srila Swami Maharaja. I know that he has collected you all <o:p></o:p> and brought you here, and as far as I am concerned, he has dragged me here. <o:p></o:p> All glories to him. Only glorifying will not do, however. We'll have to <o:p></o:p> follow his instructions. It is not enough to say, "All glories to Srila <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada." You have to follow his deep instructions in your life, and then <o:p></o:p> the fruit will come. Otherwise, where you were before, you will remain, and <o:p></o:p> there will be no advancement.<o:p></o:p> 'sadhu-sanga', 'sadhu-sanga' – sarva-sastre kaya<o:p></o:p> lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya<o:p></o:p> "The verdict of all revealed scriptures is that by even a moment's <o:p></o:p> association with a pure devotee, one can attain all success." (Cc. Madhya <o:p></o:p> 22.54)<o:p></o:p> If you have a little sraddha (faith), or even if you have nistha (firm <o:p></o:p> faith), or even ruci (taste), if you have no sadhu-sanga, no high-class <o:p></o:p> association, you will lose whatever you have. Even if you have attained the <o:p></o:p> stage of ruci, if that ruci has not matured, there will be some doubt. <o:p></o:p> Again, so many offences and unwanted mentalities and habits will attack you, <o:p></o:p> as they attacked Bharata Maharaja and others. I know that you are not at the <o:p></o:p> stage of Bharata Maharaja or anyone of his calibra. Whether or not you have <o:p></o:p> even achieved nistha, you can judge yourself by keeping your hands on your <o:p></o:p> heart and asking your heart.<o:p></o:p> Although you have not attained nistha, still I am discussing with you the <o:p></o:p> topics concerning our aim and how we can achieve it. If you are not in the <o:p></o:p> correct process, even if you think you have so much love and affection, if <o:p></o:p> your feelings and activities are not approved by sastra, then all is in <o:p></o:p> vain.<o:p></o:p> [sripad Madhava Maharaja:] Sruti-smrti-puranadi-pancaratra-vidhim vina / <o:p></o:p> aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate. ["Devotional service to the <o:p></o:p> Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures – the Upanisads, Puranas, <o:p></o:p> Narada-pancaratra, etc. – is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society <o:p></o:p> (BRS 1.2.101)."] Sruti means Veda, and smrti means smrti-sastras <o:p></o:p> (corollaries to the Vedas) like Manu-smrti. Pancaratra means <o:p></o:p> Narada-pancaratra. The great sages have explained in their books about the <o:p></o:p> goal and process to achieve it. Without the approval of these sastras, and <o:p></o:p> without the proper process, if you do something by your uncontrolled mind <o:p></o:p> and you think, "This is the best process. I have discovered it by myself, <o:p></o:p> and by this process I can achieve krsna-prema," your actions will go in vain <o:p></o:p> and they will also create chaos in your mind. The day will come that you <o:p></o:p> will give up all spiritual practices.<o:p></o:p> [srila Narayana Maharaja:] As much as your bhakti increases, humility will <o:p></o:p> come and you will think, "I'm very low." If your bhakti has not increased, <o:p></o:p> then only false ego will act. If bhakti is gradually developing, then <o:p></o:p> gradually your humility, as told in slokas like 'trnad api sunicena,' will <o:p></o:p> manifest. You will realize, "I really have nothing. I have no power. I <o:p></o:p> really have no bhakti." At that time you will be able to realize how <o:p></o:p> insignificant you are. Srimati Radhika thinks in this way. She says, "I <o:p></o:p> actually have not even a scent of prema for Krsna. I have not served Him. I <o:p></o:p> have not even seen Him." Only She can speak like this, as this is this the <o:p></o:p> symptom of mahabhava. It is very high. You should realize that you are <o:p></o:p> nothing. You are a particle, and that particle can be covered at anytime by <o:p></o:p> maya. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura therefore says in his Sri Bhajana Rahasya <o:p></o:p> that even if you have received nistha, you should hear from high-class <o:p></o:p> devotees.<o:p></o:p> There are two kinds of bhagavatas. One is the transcendental book bhagavata, <o:p></o:p> which was received by Vyasa in his trance, and in which all kinds of very <o:p></o:p> powerful and sweet pastimes of Krsna have been given. It is under lock and <o:p></o:p> key, however. It can be only opened by the highest class of <o:p></o:p> bhakta-bhagavata. These devotees have the key. Any ordinary bhakta, anyone <o:p></o:p> who is in a stage lower than rati, cannot unlock it. Only one who has <o:p></o:p> received suddha-sattva from an eternal parikara (associate) of Krsna, like <o:p></o:p> Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami and all the sad-Gosvamis, Srila <o:p></o:p> Narottama dasa Thakura, and others up to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada, can open the lock.<o:p></o:p> Don't lose the fortune to hear from superiors. Even if your whole business <o:p></o:p> goes down, there is no harm. Even if you lose your job in a government <o:p></o:p> department, that is not a loss. On the other hand, if you lose your <o:p></o:p> opportunity for saddhu-sanga, that is a great loss.<o:p></o:p> I know so many devotees here, especially from India, who don't avail <o:p></o:p> themselves of sadhu-sanga. They have come to the West to make money. Their <o:p></o:p> money is more important to them than bhakti. On the other hand, you have <o:p></o:p> left all these things and you have come here to hear. You are most <o:p></o:p> fortunate. Continue in this way. To lose any worldly thing is not really a <o:p></o:p> loss, but to lose this opportunity is very unfortunate.<o:p></o:p> Sometimes, if your friend or relative is a mayavadi, karmi, yogi, or jnani, <o:p></o:p> you try to please him – because he is your friend. Don't associate with such <o:p></o:p> people, even if they are your friends or relatives; otherwise, you yourself <o:p></o:p> will become a mayavada. Don't associate with mayavadis, and especially don't <o:p></o:p> associate with lusty persons and friends of lusty persons. If you want to <o:p></o:p> make advancement, then make friendship with a devotee who is superior to you <o:p></o:p> in bhakti, who has love and affection for you, and who is svajatiya, <o:p></o:p> like-minded. 'Like-minded' refers to one who is like-minded for paramartha <o:p></o:p> (transcendental life) – not for worldly things. He should be an ocean of the <o:p></o:p> type of prema for which you aspire. By hearing from him, you develop <o:p></o:p> increased steadiness in bhakti, and you also develop all the stages beyond <o:p></o:p> that.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> </td> <td width="20%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20%"> </td> <td width="60%">1</td> <td width="20%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20%"> </td> <td width="60%"> </td> <td width="20%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20%"> </td> <td width="60%"> </td> <td width="20%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20%"> </td> <td width="60%"> </td> <td width="20%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20%"> </td> <td width="60%"> </td> <td width="20%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20%"> </td> <td width="60%"> </td> <td width="20%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20%"> </td> <td width="60%">1</td> <td width="20%"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td width="20%"> </td> <td width="60%"> </td> <td width="20%"> </td> </tr></tbody></table>

72-09-04 Letter: Jadurani Regarding your questions, second initiation is real initiation. First initiation is the preliminary, just to make him prepared, just like primary and secondary education. The first initiation gives him chance to become purified, and when he is actually purified then he is recognized as a brahmana and that means real initiation. The eternal bond between disciple and spiritual master begins from the first day he hears. Just like my spiritual master. In 1922 he said in our first meeting, you are educated boys, why don't you preach this cult. That was the beginning, now it is coming to fact. Therefore the relationship began from that day. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Sixty-thousand rsis (sages) approached Lord Rama in the Dandakaranya forest because although they were in male bodies they were attracted by His beautiful transcendental form. Dandakaranya rsis wanted to be Lord Rama's wives but He had taken a vowel that He would only take one wife in that incarnation. In order to fulfill the desires of the rsis Lord Rama benedicted them that they would take birth as gopis in Vraja and associate with Him in his original form of Gopal Krsna. They became gopis so they were in that mood, gopi bhava, which is a specific form of madhurya bhava. Bhava is never a generic "bhakta bhava" rather it is specific to the rasa of the bhakta. So in this way Lord Rama benedicted the Danakaranya Rsis with gopi bhava. This is from the tenth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and especially the commentaries of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 25.271kṛṣṇa-līlā amṛta-sāra, tāra śata śata dhāra, daśa-dike vahe yāhā haite se caitanya-līlā haya, sarovara akṣaya, mano-haḿsa carāha' tāhāte TRANSLATION The pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa are the essence of all nectar, and that nectar is flowing in hundreds of rivers in all directions. The pastimes of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu are an eternal reservoir, and one is advised to let his mind swim like a swan on this transcendental lake. PURPORT The essence of spiritual knowledge is found in the pastimes of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, which are identical with the pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa. This is the essence of knowledge. If knowledge does not include the understanding of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Kṛṣṇa, it is simply superfluous. By Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's grace, the nectar of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa's pastimes is flowing in different directions in hundreds and thousands of rivers. One should not think that the pastimes of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu are different from Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. It is said, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya: "Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu is a combination of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa." Thus without understanding the pastimes of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, one cannot understand Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura therefore sings, rūpa-raghunātha-pade haibe ākuti/ kabe hāma bujhaba se yugala pirīti: "When shall I become very eager to study the books left by the six Gosvāmīs? Then I shall be able to understand the conjugal pastimes of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa." Caitanya Mahāprabhu directly empowered Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī and Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī. Following in their footsteps, the other Gosvāmīs understood Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His mission. One should understand Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya and Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa from the six Gosvāmīs in the paramparā system. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is following as strictly as possible in the footsteps of the Gosvāmīs. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, ei chaya gosāñi yāńra, mui tāńra dāsa: "I am the servant of the six Gosvāmīs." The philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is to become the servant of the servant of the servant of the Lord. Whoever wants to understand the difficult subject matter of kṛṣṇa-kathā should accept the disciplic succession. If one is somehow or other able to understand Kṛṣṇa, his life is successful. Tyaktvā dehaḿ punar janma naiti mām eti so 'rjuna [Bg. 4.9]. A perfect devotee is able to understand Kṛṣṇa through the disciplic succession, and his entrance into the kingdom of God is thereby certainly opened. When one understands Kṛṣṇa, there is no difficulty in transferring oneself to the spiritual kingdom. "Can come", not will come, or must come. "regular guy chanting hare krishna in the street" inplies a neophyte who may not be very serious. Some one like us who, as Sridhar Maharaja says, "has a superficial connection with Krsna Consciousness". Again using a Sridhar Maharaja axiom, "we must dive deep into reality". So Narayana Maharaja is implying that if one takes to this process very seriously then this is possible.

I apologize for everyone if I can. Its hard to navigate through all the camps. On this Nityananda Tryodasi, I vow to look at Tripurari Maharaja's writings with an open heart and mind. Who can repeat this? How about Beggar, can you soften up today on this point?

Srila Narayana Maharaja was lecturing on Madhurya Kadambini and he was quoting Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur on how one should not associate with women for it is Maya and very dangerous. He said that we come across such passages we should know that for women, men are Maya. He said that if the author who is a sadhu (or sage) was a women then it would be written how one should not associate with men for it is Maya and very dangerous. [srila Narayana Maharaja:] Sixty-thousand rsis (sages) approached Lord Rama in the Dandakaranya Forest. In their next life they were born from the womb of gopis, and they themselves became gopis and entered the rasa dance. By going to Rama, rasa-lila can also be achieved and Krsna can be attained. The Srutis, personified Vedas, have received gopi-bhava. Sri Bilvamangala Thakura came before Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and he also received it, and Sri Jayadeva Gosvami has also received it.[Devotee:] So why does Srila Krsna dasa Kaviraja say: ["The pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are inconceivable and wonderful. His ecstasy is wonderful, His qualities are wonderful, and His behavior is wonderful. If one simply adheres to mundane arguments and therefore does not accept this, he will boil in the hell of Kumbhipaka. For him there is no deliverance."? (Cc Adi-lila 17. 306-307)][srila Narayana Maharaja:] We cannot say that without worshipping Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu one cannot achieve Sri Krsna's service – before His appearance. This applies only after His appearance. [Devotee:] But nowadays, devotees in other sampradayas, such as the Vallabha-sampradaya, who chant the mantra "Sri Krsna saranam mama "– what is their destination?[srila Narayana Maharaja:] What do you mean by Sri Krsna saranam? [Devotee:] Surrender to Krsna. Taking shelter of Krsna.[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu told Srila Raya Ramananda: prabhu kahe,--"eho bahya, age kaha ara” raya kahe,--"svadharma-tyaga, ei sadhya-sara" ["This is also external," Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said. "Please proceed and speak further on this matter." Ramananda Raya replied, "To give up one's occupational duties in the varnasrama system is the essence of perfection." sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah["As stated in scripture [bG. 18.66], ‘After giving up all kinds of religious and occupational duties, if you come to Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and take shelter, I will give you protection from all of life's sinful reactions. Do not worry.'" (CC Madhya 8.63)] Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “This is external. Say something further. Saranagati alone will not suffice.” Saranagati is in reference to being protected by Sri Krsna. It is for taking something from Him. Therefore it not bhakti, but rather the doorway to bhakti. The bhakti that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given is on a post-graduate level. Before Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Lord Ramacandra and others gave gopi-bhava, but not manjari-bhava. He is so generous, kind and merciful – more so than Krsna. The sages of Dandakaranya had performed austerities for hundreds of thousands of years. But now, by chanting "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna" and "Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda", that kind of prema can come to a devotee in one, two, or three births. This is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s full mercy.

I have to admit that's a very good understanding. Are you saying that there is a difference between "career preachers" and pure preachers?

Codeword for Sahajiyas Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari "Both love in union and love in separation are most venerable. These are not topics for neophytes to argue about, using them as weapons for fighting amongst one another." Q. I understand that in Gaudiya Vaisnavism devotees sometimes desire to have a romantic relationship with Krsna. Please explain something about this. A. In discussing Krsna's relationship with the gopis, Sri Rupa Goswami mentions two possible types, sambhogecchamayi and tad-bhavecchamayi. The former is the role of a gopi who has a direct love affair with Krsna and the latter is the role of assisting a gopi group leader who has a direct love affair with Krsna. Although both are mentioned, in Gaudiya Vaisnavism the latter is considered preferable. According to both Sri Jiva Goswami and Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, it is the principal form of conjugal love in relation to Sri Krsna that devotees in our lineage aspire for. Gopis in this mood love both Radha-Krsna, but with stronger attachment to Sri Radha. These handmaids of Sri Radha feel that assisting in her relationship with Krsna is even more desirable than uniting personally with him. Sri Rupa Goswami also terms this sentiment bhavollasa-rati. Over time devotees have also referred to it as Radha-dasyam, manjari-bhava, and so on. It is the unique emphasis of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. For more information read the following Sanga: Bhavollasa Rati: Love for Radha-Krsna Combined http://www.swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/volume_four/m202.html Q. I read a contentious article in which the term manjari-bhava was referred to as the codeword for prakrta-sahajiyas (imitation devotees). Can you comment? A. My writing previously received a similar critique by the same author. In answer to a Sanga question, I wrote a brief explanation of the term bhavollasa-rati. After my reply was published, the author of the article you refer to wrote a personal attack against me, at that time labeling bhavollasa-rati the "codeword for sahajiyas." Now, in a recent article he himself uses the term bhavollasa-rati, citing Rupa Goswami's Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. In response I wrote that I first read this term in one of the books of Srila Sridhara Maharaja, referring to his Bengali translation of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, published with Sri Jiva's commentary, wherein the term bhavollasa-rati is used and discussed. At the time he was adamant that the term could not be found anywhere in the publications of Srila Sridhara Maharaja. As for the term manjari-bhava, it is found in Sripad Bon Maharaja's commentary on Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, a book approved by Srila Sridhara Maharaja. While it is true that Srila Sridhara Maharaja did not regularly use this term, he certainly discussed the subject as recorded in his published lectures. Indeed, information on the relationship between Radha-Govinda and the manjaris is found in practically all of his books, as it is not possible to enter into a comprehensive understanding of Gaudiya Vaisnavism without this knowledge. For example, Srila Sridhara Maharaja informs us in Sri Guru and His Grace, "Even the sakhis in madhurya-rasa cannot enter where Radha-Govinda are united privately, but the manjaris are allowed there. They are the younger section, and that is the highest rasa. So the highest point of our attainment, of our aspiration is there, rupanuga--Rupa Manjari. She is the leader of all the manjaris and there the highest quality of union in rasa is found. "So in that highest stage of the mixing of Radha-Govinda--free play of Radha-Govinda--these manjaris, the younger girls, they can have admission. But the grown-up sakhis they cannot have admission there. New recruits come to manjari class, up to manjari class. And the manjari has got that sort of special advantage under the leadership of Rupa Manjari. So they get the best advantage there, the most sacred type of pure service is open to the manjaris in Radharani's camp. So Rupanuga position, the most profitable position, has been given out by Mahaprabhu. That is the highest limit of your fortune. This has been shown. Beyond hope, our highest prospect lies there in that subtle camp of Sri Rupa, Rupa Manjari, Rupa Goswami. So the sampradaya of Mahaprabhu is known as Rupanuga sampradaya. There is located our fate, our fortune." Q. In that article the idea was presented that spiritual union with Krsna is a lesser experience than that of love for him in separation. Would you be so kind as to comment on this? A. Gaudiya acaryas have expressed nuanced differences of opinions on this subject, and sometimes an acarya will glorify union and at another time the same acarya will glorify separation. For example, my own siksa guru, Pujyapada B.R. Sridhara Deva Goswami said, "When Radha-Govinda are alone in union, the highest quality of rasa is to be found in their lila." However, he also said, "Dedication in its highest state is union in separation." To speak conclusively on this subject, one must be well acquainted with the Goswami literature that deals specifically with it. It is a vast topic. The terms vipralambha and sambhoga refer to union and separation in conjugal love and in prema-bhakti there are four types of each of these. In the other rasas of Vraja, union and separation are termed yoga and ayoga, and because Radha's manjaris are her servant friends, yoga and ayoga are also pertinent to their bhava as dasis of Sri Radha. Three types of yoga and two types of ayoga are discussed in the Goswami granthas (scriptures). For the most part, service in separation is emphasised because separation is the low tide of the ocean of prema, during which one can enter her waters. Sri Caitanya taught this by his example in the final years of his lila. He meditated on lilas overflowing with Radha's feelings of separation from Krsna, such as her song to the bumblebee (Bhramara-gita). Sadhakas should follow his example. In the first stages of prema, there is also a particular type of love in separation known as purva-raga (for those engaged in kamanuga) or utkantha (for those engaged in sambandhanuga), which prepares one for one's initial union with Krsna in his manifest lila in Vrndavana. In the Bhagavata we also find that the course that the kamanuga sadhana-siddhas passed through involved intense separation, which paved the way for their eventual union with Krsna. In the poetry of the Bhagavata, they died in separation before coming to live in love with Krsna. While the importance of separation has been illustrated in brief above, it is clear that such separation begets union. The secular theory of rasa, which Rupa Goswami employed to explain the nature of bhakti-rasa, teaches that the purpose of love in separation is to foster love in union. Thakura Bhaktivinoda has cited this idea in his commentary on Siksastakam 7, which is about love in separation. Thus union should not be dismissed. Indeed, we seek the union of Radha-Krsna, and Rupa Goswami writes in his Ujjvala-nilamani that the highest expression of love of God, called madanakhya-mahabhava, is experienced only in union. However, this union contains within it feelings of love in separation. Furthermore, when other acaryas, such as Sanatana Goswami, have extolled the virtues of love in separation, it is the invisible union that is experienced in such separation that makes the separation glorious. Thus the two, love in union and love in separation, are inextricably intertwined like two banks on the river of divine love. Both love in union and love in separation are most venerable. To intelligently discuss all this in context, one must be well studied. Most importantly, one must be highly realized to understand this topic in any real depth. Sometimes neophyte devotees not well acquainted with the literature like to create arguments, citing their own teacher without much understanding of the context in which he or she has spoken in favor of union or separation. These are not topics for neophytes to argue about, using them as weapons for fighting amongst one another. In this regard Pujyapada B.R. Sridhara Maharaja says, "We should not indulge in these topics carelessly. That will do some harm in our real realization in the future." Q. B. R. Sridhara Maharaja wrote, "Our Guru Maharaja (Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura) in Kartika Mas in Radha-Kunda and Vrndavana chanted asta-kaliya-lila (eight-fold daily pastimes of Radha-Krsna) composed by Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but I do not do that. I very strictly confine to the lower level, than even Guru Maharaja gave, (what he allowed is) a little higher. I am very strict about that (not allowing what he allowed)." Here Srila Sridhara Maharaja is saying that he was more conservative than his guru in regards to chanting and discussing Krsna-lila. Shouldn't this be the standard? A. Among disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta there are variations in practices. Taking into consideration time and circumstances, the guru of each mission decided what was appropriate for his disciples. Almost all branches of Gaudiya Matha chant the asta-kaliya-lila verses of Bhaktivinoda Thakura for the entire month of Kartika, but in his mission Srila Sridhara Maharaja did not do so. Does this make the others wrong or make them sahajiyas? On some points Srila Prabhupada was more conservative than Sridhara Maharaja and on other points he was less so. Srila Prabhupada rarely used the term "manjari," but we do often find it in the vocabulary of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja along with an explanation and emphasis not often found in Srila Prabhupada's writing. In fact, at one point Iskcon leaders wrongly labeled Sridhara Maharaja a sahajiya, proclaiming his discussion of Radha-Krsna lila too intimate for Srila Prabhupada's disciples. In reference to variations, differences, and disagreements among Godbrothers and Godsisters, Srila Sridhara Maharaja called for soft dealings rather than harsh confrontation, saying that whenever possible we should try to be generous with one another regardless of differences. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Questions or comments may be submitted at the Q&A Forum http://www.swami.org/sanga/ or email sangaeditor@swami.org. Moderator: sangaeditor@swami.org Sunday, January 28, 2007, Vol. IX, No. 2 Readership: 11,797 Back issue archive: http://www.swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/SangaArchive.html Sanga website: http://www.swami.org/sanga Audarya Bookstore: http://www.swami.org/store/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Vienna, Austria: September 19, 2002 Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja While Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was at Radha Kunda, the disciples of Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaja complained to him about the instructions they were receiving from their Gurudeva. They told him, "We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila. We have left everything, but our Gurudeva is telling us to grow brinjals (eggplant) and other vegetables and flowers for Thakurji. We did not come here to grow vegetables, flowers and fruits. Sir, should we return to our homes? We don't know what to do." Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura told them, "You should try to serve your Gurudeva and follow his orders. You are chanting Hare Krsna, but you are full of anarthas (impurities) and cannot chant suddha-nama (the pure name). You may chant for thousands and thousands of births and not accomplish anything. It is good and proper that you follow your Gurudeva's instructions. You cannot remember the pastimes of Krsna while you are contaminated by these anarthas. If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart. You will soon give up your bhajana to become involved with women and you will return to worldly life. Most Radha Kunda babajis are doing just that, mixing illicitly with widows and having children with them; they are not doing any real bhajana. "Do not fall down like them. You should follow your Gurudeva's orders; engage your energy in growing fruits and vegetables to offer to Thakurji or to a pure Vaisnava. You should also chant the holy name, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna. Real paramarthika (transcendental) impressions and sukrti will come into your heart, and you will be able to truly follow your Guru. Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts. Don't follow the example of the Radha Kunda babajis. They don't know Vaisnava etiquette. They don't even know how to clean themselves after using the latrine. They certainly don't know any krsna-tattva, maya-tattva, or jiva- tattva. Ignorant persons who have left their homes arrive here knowing nothing about siddhanta. These babajis will cheat them, and for only two rupees, give them a false siddha name and a false siddha-deha. They will say, 'Now you are a gopi; your name is Lalita or Visakha.' This is abominable." In his Jaiva Dharma, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written everything about the authentic process to become a paramahamsa. Jaiva Dharma is the essence of the Vedas, Upanishads, Srimad Bhagavatam, and the writings of Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha das Gosvami and our guru-varga. Asta-kaliya-lila is described for those that are advanced, but how does one become qualified to understand it? One must systematically study Jaiva Dharma from beginning to end, starting with the first part where there is a description of the material world, and proceeding through a study of Dasa-mula and all the tattvas. By following Jaiva Dharma properly, your anarthas will gradually disappear and you will be able to practice bhakti as exemplified by the two disciples, Brajanatha and Vijay Kumara. They practiced first in Navadvipa and then in Puri, and they were completely conversant with all the teachings of the important literatures by our guru-varga, including Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and Ujjvala-nilamani. They had realized all the stages of prema: vibhava, anubhava, sattvika, vyabhicari, etc. Thus they received real diksa, and they were blessed with a vision of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, dancing with Lord Nityananda and all of their associates.

What a horrible thought even if it is theoretical. It's "horrible" because its non-devotional. The "soul" in this theory is not just a "soul". If you are referring to a cowherd boy or a cowherd girl, those are eternal associates of the Lord. "The abode of Lord Sri Krsna is described in the Bhagavad-gita, Fifteenth Chapter, sixth verse: na tad bhasayate suryo na sasanko na pavakah yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama "That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity and anyone who reaches it never comes back to this material world."<o:p></o:p> This would mean that the jivas in this world that were recently, relative to material time, worms in stool have the potential to go back to Godhead and then attain the position of one “who reaches it never come back to this material world”. But in your scenario the eternal associate, ragatmika devotees can fall down and potentially become worms in the stool. So by deduction our process becomes that instead of developing laulyam or greed to become a ragatmika ourselves by becoming a raganuga bhakta (anuga means to follow) we assume that the nitya siddha, eternal associates of the Lord are of the same nature as conditioned jiva souls. This would be a major error and in fact an aparadha of vile proportions. Much of the confusion comes from the conception that “a soul is a soul”. Perhaps you have noticed that some outside our sampradaya have accussed Srila Prabhupada of an apasiddhanta. That being that all souls are of the quality sat-cit–ananda. This is cleared up by Srila Sridhar Maharaja who states that, “everything should be known by its potential”. So in the light of what Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said then the jiva soul is actually only potentially sat-cit –ananda. And the reason is not only that we are identifying with this material body but that the bodily identification is blocking our progress in bhakti. Within that potential progress there are stages and transformations.<o:p></o:p> suddha-sattva-visesatma prema-suryamsu-samya-bhak rucibhis citta-masrnya- krd asau bhava ucyate<o:p></o:p> ["When devotional service is executed on the transcendental platform of pure goodness, it is like a sun-ray of love for Krsna. At such a time, devotional service causes the heart to be softened by various tastes, and one is then situated in bhava (emotion)." (Madhya lila 23.5)]<o:p></o:p> Srila Narayana Maharaja: What is this bhava? We should know. If you don't know what is bhava, what is rati, then how can your objective be to attain it? If you do not know this, how can you do sadhana? If, not knowing this you are doing 'sadhana', it will not be sadhana. It may be sadhana-abhasa, or even less than that. It is not actually bhakti. We are all in this category.What is rati? What is the meaning of suddha-sattva-visesatma? What is sattva? What is suddha-sattva? What is visuddha-sattva? What is suddha-sattva-visesatma? There are four truths to know. What is sattva?<o:p></o:p> …We must know what is sattva, and then we must know what is suddha-sattva. Sattva means existence. This body is material sattva. It has no actual existence. All kinds of existence in this world and that transcendental world are sattva. Sattva is of two kinds: Suddha-sattva and misra-sattva. All the souls who are captured in the material energy are now misra-sattva. One who gives up the material sattva and considers himself an infinitesimal part of the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is suddha-anucit. Transcendental substance is called suddha-sattva.<o:p></o:p> Next, what is suddha-sattva-visesatma? What is this type of suddha-sattva? Baladeva Prabhu is the origin of all suddha-sattva, transcendental existence, and everything that exists in this world also comes from Him. He is the presiding Deity of sandini-sakti, Krsna's potency of existence. Everything that comes directly from this sandini-sakti in the form of Baladeva is suddha-sattva. Do you understand?<o:p></o:p> Perhaps after two days you will forget this, and therefore you should try to note it down in your heart. Suddha-sattva-visesatma. Hladini-sakti and samvit-sakti belong to the category of the svarupa-sakti of Krsna. Krsna's svarupa-sakti is hladini and samvit. Hladini-sakti is love and affection, with ananda. Samvit means knowledge. From that knowledge all the various kinds of bhava to serve Krsna which are in Radhika may partly come in the jiva. The essence of hladini and samvit, on the platform of sandini, is suddha-sattva visesatma.<o:p></o:p> How will it come? It will not come by any sadhana that can be performed by a jiva. It will come by krpa-siddha. What is krpa-siddha? It is perfection by mercy. Mercy is of two kinds. The first is Krsna's mercy, and that includes the mercy of Srimati Radhika, Vrnda, and all tadiya, associates. Secondly, mercy comes from high-class devotees of Krsna, like Sankara, Narada Gosvami, Uddhava, and even more advanced than that, Rupa Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, our Gurudeva, our Srila Swami Maharaja, and others in this line.<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o:p></o:p><!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o:p></o:p><!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o:p></o:p><!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o:p></o:p>

When Can You Change Your Diksa-Guru? Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 15, 2002 (Evening, Part 1) Tridandi Gosvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Come with me, and give me your full attention. We are going again to Navadvipa, to Godruma-kunja on the bank of Ganges. That place is very enchanting, full of beautiful creepers and flowers. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, the associate of Mahaprabhu, is seated there, and he is now instructing us about what he has seen in his trance. He is explaining how Sannyasi Thakura came from Kasi, Varanasi, to Premadasa Babaji Maharaja, took shelter at his lotus feet, and told him, "I want to be with you, serving you, for my whole life." Premadasa Babaji became very happy and replied, "You are a qualified devotee. I want you to be with me for the rest of your life." Some days later, Premadasa Babaji Maharaja told Sannyasi Thakura, "I'm going to see my siksa-guru. He is very near here, across the Alakananda River (one of the branches of the Ganges) in Nrsimhapali." You should come with me today." If you have been with me in Gaura Mandala parikrama, you have seen that place. If not, you can come with me this year, and it will be very beautiful. Over twenty thousand devotees will be with me, and they will do nagara-sankirtana on the bank of Ganges in two, three, or four-mile long lines. We will all go to Nrsimhapali on our first day. When they arrived, Paramahamsa Premadasa Babaji saw his Gurudeva sitting at a very far distance. Calling out, "Jaya Gurudeva," he offered his sastanga pranama, falling down like a stick, with his hands, head, knees, and feet on the ground. And his Gurudeva at once stood up, came forward, and embraced him. This is the behavior of qualified disciples and gurus. Although Pradyumna Brahmacari is the guru and so superior, he picked up his disciple and embraced him as one would his own child. The guru and disciple then began to glorify Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda, and they sometimes wept bitterly. Their conversation was reminiscent of that of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami. There was no need at all of asking, "How you are?" and no need to chatter. The guru asked only, "How is your bhajana?" If ones bhajana is okay, then everything will be okay. If ones bhajana is not okay, then nothing is okay. [srila Narayana Maharaja sees a devotee getting up to leave:] Don't go from here now. Everyone should remain here. Where are you going? [Devotee:] My next-door neighbors have just arrived. I am getting a seat for them. [srila Narayana Maharaja:] Don't lose this time. This time is mine. No one may go without my permission. Your guests should come in and kindly be seated. Please come in and sit down. Someone there can give them chairs. Try to hear very patiently and attentively, otherwise you cannot understand these topics. That former mayavadi sannyasi watched this exemplary behavior of the guru and disciple. In the mayavada cult there is no offering of pranama like this, because the mayavadis misunderstand that everyone is brahma. Who will offer pranama to others? Thinking each other to be Narayana, they only utter, "Namo Narayana, namo Narayana." Here, on the other hand, the disciple thinks himself very wretched, more so than a straw, and he considers that his gurudeva is saksad-hari, a manifestation of the Supreme Lord Himself. This is the proper behavior. This mood of the Vaisnava remains not only for one or two days, and it is not only external, but internal as well. After one hour, when their discussion was over, Pradyumna Brahmacari asked Premadasa Babaji, "Who is he?" Sannyasi Thakura then offered sastanga pranama to his paramguru, just as his Gurudeva Premadasa Babaji had done. He had now learned how to properly behave with a guru, how to do pranama in the correct way, and how to discuss with him. He told him, "I am a disciple of Premadasa Babaji Maharaja." Pradyumna Brahmacari became very happy and said, "You are very fortunate to have a guru like Premadasa Babaji Maharaja." He then told him: kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya yei krsna-tatva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya ["Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a sudra regardless of what he is he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krsna." (Cc Madhya 8.128)] Guru is he who is krsna-tattva-vetta. He knows the science of Krsna consciousness. It does not matter whether one is initiating others or not. Still he can be guru. If he gives initiation, that is okay, and if not, he may be giving siksa. Even if he does not give siksa, others will benefit simply by seeing his behavior. You should take the darsana of that high class of devotee-bhagavata and hear from him. Even if he does not speak, still, something will come from his body as rays of sunlight emanate from the sun. If you keep kerosene oil, you will be overpowered by its scent. Similarly, if you go to any high class of devotee, some rays, some fragrance, some power will enter your heart. Whether you can see this or not, whether you can realize this or not, it comes and affects you. Fire never speaks, but its rays and heat come automatically. And, Vaisnavas are still more powerful, for they can control the whole world with their energy. Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja came, and his fragrance emanated everywhere in a couple of years. He created so many changes; he created miracles. In this way, Pradyumna Brahmacari was explaining, "Kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya." Even if one is born in a low-class family, there is no harm. As long as he knows krsna-tattva, maya-tattva, jiva-tattva, prema-tattva, and bhakti-tattva, he is guru. On the other hand, a very learned person who knows Sanskrit as well as Veda, Upanisads, and Brahma-sutra, and has memorized and can recite them all, is not guru if he has no realization of krsna-tattva. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is writing here that a sisya should go to a guru who is bona fide in krsna-tattva, who has realized it, who is always chanting the holy name, always detached from worldly desires and sense gratification, and who is greatly attached in Krsna. In the beginning the aspiring disciple should have some sraddha, not full sraddha, but a part of sraddha, by hearing. Then, he should do padasraya; he should take shelter at the lotus feet of that bona fide guru. Thakura Bhaktivinoda writes that there are two kinds of guru, namely diksa-guru and siksa-guru. One should take diksa from the diksa-guru, and under such a guru's direction he should first do arcana. Cooking is also within the category of the practice of arcana. If you are not pure, you cannot perform any arcana. Purity must be first. You are not fit to do anything if you are contaminated. [some persons may hold their plate with their left hand and then use that left hand to touch clean articles. They may put their shoes in the same bag as their bead-bag, and they put money or keys in their bead-bag. They may touch their shoes and then, without washing their hands, offer something to their gurudeva.] Especially, your heart should be pure. If you have bad desires in your heart, especially lust and anger, you are not qualified to do arcana. You are neither qualified to cook, nor to serve your gurudeva, nor even to touch his feet. First be pure, and then you can perform these activities. Otherwise, you will begin to see faults in guru. You will even see faults in Krsna, just as Duryodhana saw faults in Him. There can only be one diksa-guru, although there may be so many siksa-gurus, and both types of gurus should be self-realized. Later in Jaiva Dharma, in chapter 20, Vijaya Kumara asked the question, "Sastra states that the diksa-guru should not be changed or not given up. If one has taken diksa from a guru who is not qualified to give krsna-tattva or krsna-bhakti, what should he do? If the guru cannot help the disciple, what should that disciple do? Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains through the reply of Paramahamsa Premadasa Babaji who quoted the verses: yo vyaktir nyaya-rahitam anyayena srinoti yah tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam "He who poses as an acarya, but gives false instructions that are opposed to the sattvata-sastras, will reside in a terrible hell for an unlimited period of time, and so will the misguided disciple who mistakenly listens to such a false guru." Hari-bhakti-vilasa (1.62) guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate It is one’s duty to give up a guru who cannot teach the disciple what he should do and what he should not do, and who takes the wrong path, either because of bad association or because he is opposed to Vaisnavas." Mahabharata Udyoga-parva (179.25) and Narada-pancaratra (1.10.20) avaisnavopadistena mantrena nirayam vrajet punas ca vidhina samyag grahayed vaisnavad guroh "One goes to hell if he accepts mantras from an avaisnava-guru, that is, one who is associating with women, and who is devoid of krisna-bhakti. Therefore, according to the rules of sastra, one should take mantras again from a Vaisnava guru." Hari-bhakti-vilasa (4.144) Premadasa Babaji explained, "When you first select a guru, you should try to do pariksya. You should examine him to see whether or not he can give you krsna-bhakti, whether or not he will fall down, whether or not he is practicing bhakti-yoga properly, and whether or not he is actually following his gurudeva or not? Is he chanting one lakh of nama or not? Is he doing arcana or not? Does he have all the symptoms given by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in Gurvastakam? 'Saksad haritvena' means that all the qualities of Hari should be in him. If one has not examined and does not know the answer to these queries, and somehow he took initiation but afterwards he saw that this guru is not qualified in the abovementioned areas, he can give up that guru who is not actually bona fide. One can change or give up that guru under two conditions or circumstances. At the time of selecting a guru and taking diksa, the sisya may not have examined him. He may have become overwhelmed and taken initiation at once, and afterward he may have heard so many things, from books like Srimad-Bhagavatam and from superiors, that this guru cannot actually help him. He may now think, "I took diksa fifteen years ago but there has been no advancement." He can quickly give up that guru. I know so many gurus who never chant. They say to others, "You should chant," but they have no time to chant. They are always talking on telephones, with one phone on each ear. They are absorbed in management, and they attend many meetings that bring no solution to anyone's problems. If the disciple later on understands this, he should give up that guru, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has quoted so many slokas in this regard. The second parastiti (condition) is as follows: Suppose at the time of taking diksa, one's gurudeva was really following the Vaisnava line, he was a madhyama-adhikari, and he knew many tattvas like krsna-tattva, and maya-tattva. Then, after some time, he began to take the association of a mayavadi, sahajiya, or materialist. He stopped chanting, and after that he began to criticize Vaisnavas, no longer accepting the guru-parampara. The sisya should at once give him up, as one passes stool. When one gives up stool, he becomes very happy and he feels fresh. Similarly, upon giving up all these 'kan-gurus', the aspiring devotee will be extremely happy. On the other hand, if the guru is following all the principles of bhakti, if he is in the line of his gurudeva, if he is chanting and remembering but he is not learned enough to give you krsna-tattva, then don't give him up. With honor for him, take his permission, and go with his permission to associate with exalted Vaisnavas. And, if he does not give permission, you can consider that he is also among the kan-gurus meant for being given up. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained all this in chapter 20 of Jaiva Dharma, and I request you all to read this right away. Sannyasi Thakura's character was extremely high. He knew brahma-tattva, which means he could discriminate between the transcendental and the material, this ability is called brahma-nistha. Bhagavad-gita states: brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati samah sarvesu bhutesu mad-bhaktim labhate param ["One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." (Bg 18.54)] What is the meaning of brahma-bhutah prasannatma? [sripad Pundarika dasa:] In this verse, Krsna is telling us that the person who has attained this high level is actually the proper candidate to receive or enter into the realm of para-bhakti: mad-bhaktim labhate param. He gets the opportunity to enter into the realm of devotion if he gets the association of highly advanced bona fide Vaisnavas. If he does not get such opportunity, there is all chance that he can lean towards impersonalism and go in a completely opposite direction. It is very important that at this point he seeks association of bona fide sadhus. [srila Narayana Maharaja:] What is the meaning of na socati? If anything has gone wrong, if one has lost his position, wealth, reputation, and everything else, such a person does not lament. If he one day finds himself homeless, he becomes very happy and thinks, "Now I am okay." If his wife divorces him, he thinks, "Very good; very good. I wanted this. She has done well." In either case he will not be unhappy. Na kanksati. He never has any worldly desire. He only and always wants the association of that high class of Vaisnavas. He wants to serve them, and he especially wants to serve the words coming from their lotus mouths. tasmin mahan-mukharita madhubhic-caritra- piyusa-sesa-saritah paritah sravanti ta ye pibanty avitrso nrpa gadha-karnais tan na sprsanty asana-trd-bhaya-soka-mohah ["My dear King, in the place where pure devotees live, following the rules and regulations and thus purely conscious and engaged with great eagerness in hearing and chanting the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in that place if one gets a chance to hear their constant flow of nectar, which is exactly like the waves of a river, one will forget the necessities of life—namely hunger and thirst—and become immune to all kinds of fear, lamentation and illusion." (SB 4.39-40)] There is always a continuously flowing river of nectar from the mouth of pure devotees. There is no end; no end at all. Nectar ever-increasingly flows from his lotus mouth, and if anyone takes bath in that river of nectar, he will be purified. All kinds of unhappiness, difficulties, sorrows, and problems of life will leave him forever. He will come to this position of na socati na kanksati samah sarvesu bhutesu, and then he will enter into the realm of pure prema-bhakti. Sannyasi Thakura was already accomplished in this nistha, because he had considered that all were brahma. Now, however, upon meeting Premadasa Babaji, he was becoming situated in krsna-prema pastimes, or lila-nistha. Now he wanted to know who is Krsna, how He plays in Vrndavana, how beautiful He is, and how He attracts all. This nistha took place by association of a high-class Vaisnava. If one is always in the association of a Vaisnava, he will never fall down or desire to be married. He will never be lusty. If such desires manifest, it will be because he is offending that Vaisnava and not actually associating. Something positive must certainly come from that real guru, who is extremely powerful, and the desire to serve Krsna was now coming to Sannyasi Thakura. 1

<center>Part of Chapter Eight B. R. Sridhara Maharaja <tt>Sri Guru & His Grace</tt> </center> <center> <tt>Separation from Sri Guru </tt>Abandoning Bogus Gurus http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/sri_guru/sri_guru_8.html Devotee: If the initiating guru falls down from the path, what should the disciple do? Srila Sridhara Maharaja: He may take shelter of the holy name of Krsna again and wait for some time. If the guru was at first a sincere disiciple of his spiritual master, and now as a result of some offenses he is being neglected by his guru, he may be led astray for some time. But he may return to the standard again. Still, it is said in the Mahabharata (Udyoga-parva 179.25): <center> guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpatha-prathipannasya parityago vidhiyate </center> "A guru who does not knowwhat is to be done and what is not to be done, who has left the path of devotional service, should be abandoned." This is found in Bhisma's statement in the Mahabharata. Bhisma is one of the twelve mahajanas, and this is his statement to his astra-guru, Parasurama. Jiva Goswami says that if the guru goes astray he should be abandoned, but there may be circumstances where, by the inconceivable desire of Krsna, the guru may go astray for a time and then come back again. In that case, the disciple should wait for some time. It is very unfortunate for the disciple when such things happen. You will find this elaborately dealt with in the Harinama-cintamani of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. If a son leaves home and disobeys his father, the father may be indifferent to him; he may exclude him from the will. If, however, the son returns after some time and is again obedient, then he may collect his inheritance. In a similar way, a spiritual master may disobey his guru, and then his guru may be indifferent to him for some time, but again if he sets himself right, he will not be disinherited. This is explained in Bhagavad-gita (api cet suduracaro ). So we should not deal very abruptly with these unfortunate incidents, but we should wait and see. Everything must be done judiciously. In trying to understand the relationships between guru and godbrother and guru and disciple, we will find very subtle points of sentiment. Just as when Krsna entered into the arena of Kamsa, he appeared differently to different persons, the disciples will have one view of their guru and his godbrothers will have another view and disposition. The disciples of a genuine guru will see their guru as being with Krsna, but that may not be seen to his godbrothers. In madhurya-rasa, Krsna is seen in one way, and in vatsalya-rasa, Mother Yasoda sees him in another way. The servants see him in another way. The risis like Gargamuni will see him in another way. As Krsna likes to show himself, he will be seen. </center>

How does it logically compute that those who believe that the diksa process should continue have made a religion out of formal diksa? Could this be an over generalization? The term Krsna Consciousness was derived from the very name of Sri Krsna Caitanya. Caitanya means consciousness. Mahaprabhu appeared in Gauda desa so His followers who consider Him to be Krsna Himself are known as Gaudiya Vaisnavas. This is a point worth contemplating. Many devotees seem to be pushing their branch of Krsna Consciousness rather that exhorting people to be Krsna Conscious. Why is this? How will it stop? But why is the rtvik conception the solution? That "fraud" existed during Prabhupada's time. It's like some devotees think that all they have to do is sit in front of the guru without actually practicing and serving. But labeling the behaviour "Vapuvadi" politicizes the issue. Isn't it really just one manifestation of kannistha adhikary mentality? And labeling it Vapuvadi means that there are the anti-Vapuvadis; then what are they? Vanivadis? It becomes an us and them mentality? And how is this different from pushing a particular branch of Krsna Consciousness instead of Krsna Consciousness in its pristine eternal conception, free of time, place and circumstantial considerations. Here's some retaliatory ad hominom statements which are a little more than shaking the fists and beating the chest. Even if rtviks or some kind of junior guru is doing the formal initiation that doesn't mean that the initiated persons are direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada? This is truly a contentious point. One could accept that there are junior gurus (junior in devotional status). But one wouldn't necessarily then have to jump to the conclusion that the inititiates are direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Why wouldn't they equally be disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhant Saraswati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur? Many of the same issues underlining these contradictions led to the Reformation against the Papacy in Rome. Why reinvent the wheel? Just be a Protestent and read your Bible and interpret it on your own. The specific meanings in Srila Prabhupada's books are now being debated on the internet on a daily basis. But some insist that there can be no interpretation. This is similar to writing a book about how books are not necessary.

Sometimes there are interruptions and sometimes a generation only appears skipped because the experts are only noting the "important personages".

You still have to balance that truth with the fact that ACBSP and BSS gave hare nama and diksa to their disciples. There's the rule and the exception to the rule. BSS was a revolutionary acarya. If you are a revolutionary acarya then you can do, if one is just an ordinary devotee, forget it.

Not accepting the rtvik theory doesn't mean that one accepts current GBC ISKCON. It just means that one does not accept the rtvik theory as a viable alternative. The rtvik theory destroys the very basis of the guru parampara. The guru situation in ISKCON with the falldowns brings shame upon the parampara within a time, place and circumstance. The proper conception of guru tattva and guru parampara are eternal princibles.

Even I, think that is an absurd statement.

If Srila Prabhupada would have created a "living ritvik system" which "was itself a departure from "tradition"" then he wouldn't have waited for questions from the disciples. He would have been more clear if he had made such a monumental adjustment. There is just not enough evidence and that is why there is so much contention about this issue.

Srila Prabhupada never "gave the GBC authority to terminate the ritvik system at an time under any circumstances" because by definition a rtvik system will automatically end when the diksa guru who is being represented leaves this world. This is indicated by his statement, "Because in my presence one should not become guru". So in his presence he created a rtvik system and by defintion it ended when his vapu presence ended in this world. period.

Transcendental trickery from Srila Prabhuapada's perspective would be to say, "this Krsna Conciousness Movement is so nice, there is simply chanting, dancing and feasting". Meanwhile the kitchen crew stayed up all night preparing the feast for the large group of devotees and guests. Another example would be where he would say, "the process of Krsna Consciousness is very easy". In both of these cases he's encouraging newcomers. Then sometimes he would say, "actually to become Krsna Conscious is not so easy". This would encourage the devotees who had been around for a while with there struggle to remember Krsna and control their senses. He told the book distributors, "Work very hard for Krsna one life. ..." Sometimes he would give a more complex instruction such as, "Krsna Consciousness is easy for the simple and difficult for the crooked."