Shakti-Fan

I was once at an initiation ceremony with Srila Prabhupada. I was only in the Movement for 3 months so I wasn't recommended for first initiation. All the devotees in the temple who were there for more than 6 months got Hari nama. So when I was in the temple room I was about 20 ft. from Prabhupada so I heard him chanting on their beads. So I heard the maha mantra directly from Prabhuapada's mouth. 3 months later I was given hari nama by mail. When was I first initiated? Obviously 3 months later by mail! Why, because of his intention or desire. Similarly if someone who didn't have second initiation from Srila Prabhupada, went into the TP's office and popped in the tape of Prabhupada chanting gayatri (say in 1975) that wouldn't mean they were second initiated unless Prabhupada desired it to be so. The same situation exists in current time.

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja: My teachings are the same as those of Srila Swami Maharaja. There may be some difference in my choice of words, or in my pronunciation, but our teachings are the same. Whatever I have written in my books, Srila Swami Maharaja has also written in his books - in books such as 'Bhagavad-gita As It Is.' My translation and commentary on Bhagavad-gita is a sequel to his. They are the same, but I am giving something more than he could give at the time. He did not extensively explain certain aspects of the philosophy at the time because he knew that his disciples would not be able to understand. Srila Swami Maharaja has taken the ideas of Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana, and I have taken the ideas of the Gurudeva of Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. There is no difference between our teachings; all of my books are in the same line as his.

Boy, have you come a long way. And I don't mean that as anything negative but rather a compliment. Maybe there is hope for me after all.

That's only true to some extent. The Vaisnavas have their etiquette or sadacara; The knights of the Middle Ages had their Code of Chivalry; The millitaries of all countries until the middle of the 20th century actually followed the millitary code. Once after General Sherman had burned Atlanta, a Confederate private spat in the face of a Union officer who was a prisoner of war. Once the Confederate captain learned of this breach of the millitary code he had the private immediately taken before the firing squad for insubordination to an officer. Didn't you ever hear anything in ISKCON about "respecting the uniform"? Once after he made a criticism of a godbrother one of Prabhupada's disciples chimed in. Prabhupada told, "I can do, but you cannot". How can fallen householders discuss and analyze the positon of an extremely senior sanyassi, even if they are in a different camp? I guess the answer is that this is an example of the deep inroads the rapid advance of Kali Yuga has made upon us.

Drstadyumna had the same criticisms when he left Narayana Maharaja (and gave up sannyasa for the second time). But who knows? In a way such criticisms sound like something from a sophomore political science class. Maybe we our using our analytical skills to disect the undisectable?

Allen Ginsberg told me the same thing about Srila Prabhupada almost verbatim in August of 1972. The pure devotees have full knowledge that the kannistha devotees that they create will pass stool and urine on them just like a human infant. But just as a mother sees no offense from the child when this happen similarly the spiritual master does not take the childish mistakes of the beginners as an offense; After all he is the ever well wisher of his devotees and in fact, all living entites. But we must not be like little Kaliya serpants passing stool, urine and our poison in to the river of the association of devotees.

Yes, therefore the "spirit and the sanction" cannot necessarily be seen with "our physical eyes". Therefore the sanction from above to be guru may not always come in a formal way. Srila Prabhupada was not a proponent of appointing gurus for this very reason and neither was he an "appointed guru".

If a hero in a drama was not tested then how would be know that he is a hero? "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages." --From As You Like It (II, vii, 139-143) by William Shakespeare.

Why was Prabhupada gored by a bull just after taking sannyasa?

Here's a famous "Prabhupada said" quote: "Krsna knows everything except when we will surrender." How is this? Because the Lord created our minute free will. Then this is all by His will or desire. Reality the Beautiful. Remember, He is for Himself and by Himself.

Neophyte fanatics will be neophyte fanatics. Some are reasonable. Were there any such reasonable devotees around Prabhupada in the 70's. If there were then they were driven out, especially immediately after Prabhuapada's disappearence. During Prabhupada's time everyone preached that you had to be initiated by him to be Krsna Conscious. Do you think this only goes on in the Narayana Maharaja camp? That's why Guruvani is wrong, he's not revealing the pitfalls of the kannistha mentality but rather condeming a whole camp and their guru for the follies of their neophyte members. The same behaviour was good during Prabhupada's time, but now its evil and dark. This is the mentality. How to harmonize? It's all in Sri Guru and His Grace by Sridhar Maharaja.

Srila Narayana Maharaja is Srila Prabhupada's successor for those who accept him as such. Such an outlook is based on faith, alone. In a sense to push Narayana Maharaja, as such, is to make propaganda, if it is given in a fanatical way. But any neutral person will see that Vikram Ramsundar Prabhu is not writing like such a fanatic. But Guruvani is using language to inflame and he is acting as a fanatic of the anti-party. Such fanaticism invariably leads to Vaisnava aparadha.

If it is true, and I have no idea that it is, then the reason it would be true is that Narayana Maharaja is expressing a universal principle applicable to all. That principle must be that to argue uselessly and thereby try to control other's concepts of Krsna Consciouness is both a waste of time and a spiritual transgression. Sometimes universal principles of spiritual life manifest as common sense. It doesn't take a sastric genius to see that "casting ones pearls before swine" and the ninth offense against the Holy Name are one in the same. asraddadhane vimukhe ’py asrnvati yas copadesah siva-namaparadhah It is an offense to preach the glories of the holy name of the Lord to the faithless. It is likewise an offense to preach the glories of one's guru to those who have no faith in him. But to respond by resorting to Vaisnava aparadha "after so many instructions on the matter" is farcicle and belies a deeply diseased mentality and condition of heart.

It's clear that Guruvani has a hidden agenda. He was once part of Sridhar Maharaja's USA temple. Now he accepts certain things that Sridhar Maharaja says such as about the origin of the soul and rejects others teachings such as on guru tattva. But one thing that he has in common with certain factions of Sridhar Maharaja's followers is that he thinks it's open season to denigrate the character of Narayana Maharaja. Such a predjudicial and malicious campaign has no place in an assembly of Vaisnavas of any camp.

Krsna Talk: My Guru is Radharani Questions and Answers with Swami B. G. Narasingha Question: I have seen in the composition "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram" that you have indicated Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was in madhurya-rasa. However, we have also heard from other great souls quoting Srila B. R. Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja that Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja has shown affinity for sakhya-rasa. This apparently has been shown in Swami Prabhupada's prayer written on the good ship Jaladutta while he was on his way to the western world. So my question is, being an admirer of Srila Sridhara Maharaja how do you harmonize your opinion about the rasa of your Guru Maharaja with that indicated by Srila Sridhara Maharaja? Narasingha Maharaja: What Srila Sridhara Maharaja has spoken, we should take that upon our head. After the departure of our Prabhupada, it is appropriate that we should accept the direction of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Almost these very same words were uttered about Srila Sridhara Maharaja by our Guru Maharaja in a letter to Sripad Govinda Maharaja (Our Affectionate Guardians, pp. 8. ). So to accept Srila Sridhara Maharaja's opinion is quite natural for anyone who even remotely knows something of his higher subjective realizations and of his intimate relationship with our Srila Prabhupada. When Srila Sridhara Maharaja heard the recitation of the poem composed by our Guru Maharaja, "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna," he commented that there was indeed strong indication of our Srila Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa. Srila Sridhara Maharaja said, "He has expressed himself, his eternal position, the acme of his aspiration. In Vrindavan he has established Balarama and Krishna and Nitai Gaura, and he is saying like that, Nitai Gaura are Krishna and Balarama. It's almost clear that he comes from that group. And now he's again there. Hare Krishna." Such a statement by Srila Sridhara Maharaja is not to be taken lightly. A short time later there was some objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's referring to our Guru Maharaja as being in sakhya-rasa. Some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples for some reason took objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's statement. Srila Sridhara Maharaja was shocked by the immaturity of those disciples who objected. The consideration of rasa was obviously not a topic that those disciples were familiar with. Indeed their harshness in dealing with Srila Sridhara Maharaja reflected their extremely neophyte state of Krsna consciousness. At that time Srila Sridhara Maharaja made reference to the effect that because of the special empowerment of Sri Nityananda Prabhu that our Guru Maharaja might have couched his madhurya tendencies in deference to Lord Nityananda. The idea given by Srila Sridhara Mahraja was that it is possible that our Guru Maharaja was in madhurya rasa, but out of deference to Nityananda by whose potency he was influenced for his preaching campaign, Srila Prabhupada may have veiled his madhurya sentiments. Therefore some of the sakhya influence of Nityananda Prabhu was shown outwardly, keeping madhurya in the backgound. It was not unthinkable for Srila Sridhara Maharaja to say such a thing-that our Guru Maharaja was outwardly showing sakhya influence and keeping his madhurya sentiments in the background. Certainly such is not unreasonable. To be a follower of Srila Sridhara Maharaja does indeed mean to adhere to his instructions and opinions. Last but not least, his instruction was that one should come to the plane of eternal truth, by surrender-to know the truth in the core of one's heart, anuraga. Some devotees may be in favor of our Guru Maharaja in sakhya-rasa while others may favor him in madhurya-rasa but to establish a right and a wrong in this matter may not be as black and white as some would like it to be. The truth is subjective-as He wishes us to see Him, so we shall see Him. In the life of our Guru Maharaja there were innumerable indications for thinking that he was connected to Krsna-lila in madhurya-rasa. We have tried to show practically, by those indications, how Srila Prabhupada is very dear to Srimati Radharani. Only a portion of those indications have been recounted in the song "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram." Those were as follows: (1) That Srila Prabhupada's father praying to the vaishnava-sadhus asked for their blessings that his son become the servant of Srimati Radharani. (2) That Srila Prabhupada took mantra-diksa (initiation) from Sri Saraswati Thakura (Vrsabhanavi Devi Dayita Dasa also known as Nayana-mani Manjari in his siddha-rupa). (3) That Srila Prabhupada received his most cherished instructions to print books from his Guru while they strolled along the banks of Sri Radha Kunda (the most sacred place of pilgrimage for the followers of Sri Rupa and Raghunatha dasa). (4) That Srila Prabhupada's chosen place of bhajan in Vrindavan was just behind the samadhi of Srila Rupa Goswami (Rupa Manjari). (5) That Srila Prabhupada after completing his world preaching mission returned to Vrindavana and selected Kartikka month (the month non-different from Srimati Radharani) as the time of his departure and his entrance into the eternal lilas of the Lord. (6) And lastly Srila Prabhupada manifested a great desire just a few days before his pastime of departure to go to Govardhan Hill, the eternal place of residence of the followers of Sri Rupa and Raghunatha dasa. These and other indications of Srila Prabhupada being the dear most servant of Srimati Radharani were expressed in "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram" It may be said that one can not judge the rasa of a particular devotee simply by his external movements or place of residence etc. However such a statement may be taken as only partially true. Otherwise Gaudiya-vaishnavas would not choose the Holy Dhams such as Vrindavana, Navadwipa, and Jagganatha Puri as their preferred places of residence/bhajan. The prakata-lila (external movement) of the pure devotee is not necessarily devoid of aprakata-bhava (one's internal feelings of love of Krsna). Although the movements of the pure Vaishnava are certainly deeply mysterious and not easily understood, such may nonetheless give us some perspective on the level of their intimacy with the Supreme Lord. Further biographical information that has not been mentioned in the "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram" indicating the intimacy of Srila Prabhupada in Radha Krsna-lila is as follows. (1) When choosing to establish his mission "The League of Devotees" at Jansi, India Srila Prabhupada chose a building known as "Radha Smarak" (Radha Memorial) to set up his offices. (2) When Srila Prabhupada went to Delhi for printing his Back to Godhead magazine he chose a residence in the Chippiwada, Radha Krsna temple. (3) When choosing a printing press to begin the publication of his life's work Srimad Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada chose the Radha Press in Delhi. (4) When introducing his disciples to the worship of Sri Guru, Srila Prabhupada requested us to daily sing the prayers to the spiritual master composed by Viswanatha Cakravarthi Thakura, in which the glorify the spiritual master as a servant of the divine couple in madhyura-rasa (nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai) is mentioned. (5) Srila Prabhupada's favorite bhajan was "jaya radha madhava jaya-kunja-bihari, gopi-jana-ballabha" (This song was sung whenever Srila Prabhupada gave Srimad Bhagavatam class). In any case, we have many such remembrances of our Divine Master which have unfolded in our heart so as to impel us to contemplate him as a follower of Sri Rupa Goswami and an eternal member of the intimate circle of the madhurya-rasa. We feel it proudly in our heart the Srila Prabhupada was the confidential representative of Srimati Radharani who was especially empowered by Sri Nityananda Prabhu to spread Krsna consciousness all over the world. nama om visnupadaya krsna-presthaya bhutale svami sri bhaktivedanta prabhupadaya te namah gurvajnam sirasi-dharyam saktyavesa sva-rupine hare-krsneti mantrena pascatya-pracya-tarine visvacarya prabaryaya divya karunya murtaye sri-bhagavat-madhurya-gita-jnana-pradayine gaura-sri-rupa-siddhanta-saraswati nisevine radha-krsna-padambhoja-bhrngaya gurave namah "I offer my humble obeisances unto His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, who is very dear to Lord Krsna on this Earth, having taken shelter at His lotus feet. Taking the order of his guru on his head, be became empowered by Nityananda Prabhu to act as a saktyavesa-avatara. He distributed the Hare Krsna mantra all over the Eastern and Western world, delivering and uplifting all fallen souls. He is the best of millions of jagat-gurus, because he is the personification of divine mercy. He has distributed the sweet nectar of Srimad Bhagavatam and the transcendental knowledge of Bhagavad-gita all over the world. He is constantly engaged in exclusive devotional service to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, Srila Rupa Goswami, and Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu. I offer my humble obeisances unto Srila Prabhupada, who is like a bumblebee always tasting the nectar of the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha and Govinda." (pranam-mantra composed by Sripad Govinda Maharaja upon Srila Prabhupada's personal request) As Srila Sridhara Maharaja has said, "If we raise our head a little higher and look up then we shall find Radharani and Gurudeva. It is Radharani who is instrumental in accomplishing the function of Gurudeva from behind. The source of grace for the guru is coming from the original source of service and love. Saksad dharitvena samasta sastrair, we are asked to see Gurudeva not as opaque but as transparent, to such a degree that through him the highest conception of service, the first conception of service can be seen. It can be obtained there. If we are earnest then we shall find the highest link from the original source. We are requested not to see guru as limited in his ordinary personification, but as the transparent mediator of the highest function in his line. If only our vision is deep, we can see that according to the depth of our sraddha, our vision, guru-tattva is very particular, very noble, very broad, wide and very deep." (Follow the Angels, pp.163. Available from Mandala Publishing Group: http://www.mandala.org/) In summary we may conjecture that our Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is in madhurya-rasa simply because he saw his guru as Srimati Radharani. His guru is Srimati Radharani. A simple observation-he saw his guru as Srimati Radharani. This was also confirmed by Srila Sridhara Maharaja on several occasions as follows: "Swami Maharaja has clearly written that his guru is Radharani, it is there. Krsna, Radharani will be pleased if you help me in this campaign. Is it not written there, e-punya koribe jabe radharani khusi habe dhruva ati boli toma tai. So he has admitted that his guru is Radharani. So we aspire after the service of Radharani, under the direction of Sri Rupa and other devotees, not committing any wrong." (Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna) "In general rasa, general service of Krishna he preached in the West. Though he knew and admitted that, 'My guru is Radharani.' Radharani, my gurudeva, has ordered me to preach in the west. And Krishna, my friend, you are to help me, because Radharani will be satisfied, my gurudeva. Your bigness is also like that. So, You must come to help me" Certainly Srila Prabhupada will forgive us if we have over stepped our bounds in our endeavors to serve him with our full hearts love and devotion. We offer our humble apologies to anyone and everyone if we have made any offence in following our heart felt intuition and pray that you will kindly forgive us.

That's a nice sentiment but many persons practice bhakti with the idea that such bhakti will be renounced when they achieve liberation and thus "merge with God". According to Srila Sridhar Maharaja the mayavadis may also chant Hare Krsna, but the Lord experiences such chanting as thunderbolts against His soft Transcendental body.

In modern English Vernacular, infallible means never making a mistake. If you look at the etymology of the word in - not, fallible - prone to falling; And of course by the laws of material energy one does not fall up they "fall down". So of course Srila Prabhupada told in many places, that there are two kinds of beings fallible and infallible. Krsna says (BG 15.1)That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world. It just doesn't make sense that a conditioned soul can become perfect by grace and go to the spiritual planets and become fallible and that an eternally infallible soul call become fallible.

Even from an objective viewpoint no scholar would ever say that the teachings of Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are completely one way or the other on the origin of the soul controversy. One thing is that the "back to Godhead" phrase did not originate with Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, I believe it was coined by Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakur. Perhaps Muralidhar Prabhu knows? Also if you really look at the logic implied in the above statement by Druva das, it is also a criticism of the acaryas of the era of the six goswamis and immediately afterward. Therefore these statements are completely offensive in nature for they are an attack upon Srila Prabhupada's predessesor acaryas and therefore the writer is some sort of imitation revisionist sahajiya.

Generally, its true but there was recently a big debate on the Sampradaya Sun website over whether Kalki avatara comes at the end of each Kali Yuga.

If you ever read about an ISKCON sanyassi on the internet, you can google his name and you'll always find some info or bio. Not so with "Pradyumna Swami". The only results that turns up are referring back here to Audarya Fellowships Spiritual Discussions. Very strange. Maybe the Swami has an eternal Audarya Fellowships vigrah?

I must say Guest of Mind Your Mind has some good insights about factionalism and Hare Krishna chat rooms. On another thread Theist is remembering Puru Prabhu:

The wise continuously see the highest form of Visnu. This supreme form, perceived with spiritual eyes, is Krsna. (Rg Veda 1.22.23) apasyam gopam anipadyamana ma ca para ca pathibhis carantam sa sadhricih sa visucir vasana avatirvati bhuvanesv antah I saw a cowherd. He never falls from his position; sometimes he is near, and some times far, wandering on various paths. He is a friend, decorated with a variety of clothes. He comes again and again to the material world. (Rg Veda 1.22.164 sukta 31) Found on: http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/tattvas1.htm

When Sri Visnu desires to experience lila he becomes Laxmi Narayana. From the tattvic viewpoint Narayana and Krsna are one, they are both Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead. Krsna as the enternal predominating moiety of Srimati Radharani, the predomined moiety, is considered both higher and therefore original because of rasik analysis. The union and separation of Krsna, the gopis and the supreme gopi is colored by parakiya bhava or paramour love. The relationship of Laxmi Narayana is married love or svakiya bhava. The paramour love is much deeper and involves intense separation. This is the opinion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the experts in His line.