Beggar

I'm sure it's not the same Swaupa Prabhu. The lady on the right is Nirguna D.D.

The Fall-Vadis and Sleeper Vadis take this truth and expound on it with their own mental concoction. Consequently we find Srila Prabhupada sometimes speaking in the eternal present and telling us that' "we are already" liberated and that our material existence "is like a dream". But in his books he gives the siddhanta or conclusion.Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.30.5, purport, But the Sleeper-Vadis take Srila Prabhupada's "speaking in terms of the eternal present" as the only angle of vision thereby pitting it against the angle of vision of the "conclusion" or siddhanta. They take it as, They have no real idea of what impersonalism actually is and no interest in Krsna's pastimes per se. That have concocted a philosophy which is denies the superior position of the ragatmika bhaktas. With such an attitude how will anyone then aspire to follow the ragatmikas - raganuga, let alone become a Rupanuga or even entertain the very concept?

Just see, my brother, no takers for your challenge! They ain't players, just haters. Hate'in on the Vaisnavas, a terrible thing.

I hope that you are being facetious or just plain sarcastic. Otherwise it is like asking for a rational exchange of ideas with a Neo-Nazi propagandist. They don't listen to a thing that you say and just try to shout you down, as well as lowering themselves to argumenum ad hominem or what the Gaudiya Vaisnavas call vaisnava aparadha.

Those who are fanatically sticking with ISKCON (not that there are no sincere devotees in the ISKCON institution) are giving too much value to external form. It's like caring too much for a brand name when shopping. We don't care so much about brand name of a bottled water, we care if the water in it is really pure. If it is not then we will purchase pure water from another company. Then at the same time those who are habituated to accepting the external form over substance are prone to criticize those who are interested in the real purity. Ultimately such a mentality is a "cheap imititation" of the real spiritual life of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas. As I noted in the previous post, we do not oppose the idea that, "we are not really fallen", and that it is "like a dream" for that conception is coming from the nitya siddha krsna prema verse in Caitanya Caritamrta. But such a thought is not the conclusion or Gaudiya Siddhanta. Blaspheming sincere devotees, criticizing Prabhupada's godbrothers, fanatic loyalty to a compromised, hollow, deviated institution because it is officially called ISKCON and arguing against the real siddhanta are symptoms of cheap imitationism or sahajiyaism.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has said in his speech, "The Bhagawat" that, "no thought is a bad thought". Therefore the idea that in a sense we are already liberated or in our spiritual position is really coming from the nitya siddha krsna prema verse of Caitanya Caritamrta. Simultaneously the brahmajyoti origin conception comes from the Caitanya Caritamrta's, tatastha shakti bhedabheda prakasa verse. From different angle of visions both are true but only in qualified way which properly harmonizes the opposites. That is why Srila Prabhupada spoke and wrote both about both conceptions. Yet in the S.B. 4.30.5, purport we are told, "The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Conclusion and siddhanta are synonomous. That the jiva's origin is the "bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead" is the conclusion because it takes into account, yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama parama mama in Bhagavad Gita, that once attaining the Lord's abode one never comes back to this Material World. Otherwise since the conditioned souls can never come back to the Material World, if you believe that the eternal, internal associates of Lord can fall down from there but the newly arrived conditioned souls cannot then that puts, the conditioned jivas presently in a fallen conditioned (whether they are dreaming it or not) in a superior position, an absurd concept. Such an idea could not be the conclusion for it does not properly harmonize such apparent contradictions. Another point is that when Srila Prabhupada spoke to a disciple in a room conversation or on a walk, he would not tolerate any pride such as, "I really know, what I'm talking about". No matter what one would say, Prabhupada would almost always counter with an opposite idea. Sometimes he would detect that his disciple was looking for a "loophole" to not take responsibility for their fallen condition or difficulties. I believe that this is why in many conversations with disciples he would stress our free will, no matter that it is minute. Also Srila Prabhupada knew that no matter what we said, that our realization of it was practically nonexistent. He wanted us to realize our true nature, but we were secretely maintaining the bodily conception while trying to spout high philosophy (mea culpa). But it wasn't a secret to him for he saw through everyone's facades. Srila Prabhupada was a sadhu so he was cutting the false ego and false conceptions of all his followers. So his conversations and letters must be seen in that light. One may also find apparently conflicting statements in his books but when he wants to state the conclusion which properly harmonizes the opposites then he tells us that, "the conclusion is...".

Should read

Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaj Sukadeva began to answer and everyone there in pin-drop silence began to listen to his words. His words were coming unquestionably as the absolute truth and were unanimously accepted by all. Present in that assembly were all the big scholars who had come to give some consolation to Pariksit Maharaja, "You are such a good Maharaja with good administration. You are unparalleled as well as a lover, respecter and protector of the brahminical yajna, faith, etc. Despite all these qualifications you have been cursed to die within seven days by the boy Srngi, a member of the brahmana section, and that is a very lamentable thing. His curse will prove to be fatal, and that is lamentable." In this way almost all the leaders of all different schools of philosophy came to give consolation to Maharaja Pariksit. It was in that well-represented assembly that Sukadeva was to speak. Narada and Vyasadeva knew well that, "What teachings we are trying to inaugurate, the philosophy of the Bhagavata which for many sages seemed to be a very narrow and bigoted thing, a sectarian philosophy, when Sukadeva will speak this Bhagavatam he will give it in a very extensive way, illustrating the message of the Bhagavata with the widest color of expression." Previously, Narada had expressed, "I gave ten poems as ten outlines about the philosohy of Bhagavata to Vyasadeva and he elaborately taught that to Sukadeva. Sukadeva has got some extensive credit and honor amongst all the types of scholars. He is a visionary of extraordinary insight. He is coming in that broad view of reality experienced by the liberated soul, and his understanding is percolated by his brahma conception, we are eager to see how this elaborated Srimad Bhagavatam shall be delivered to this world by him, retaining its transcendental characteristic. In order to do away with any mundane misconception the Bhagavata must pass through Sukadeva otherwise people may think philosophy of the Bhagavata to be a sectarian teaching and something mundane. He has got the broadest conception of view and his qualification is admitted by sages from all sides and traditions." Narada and Vyasadeva were present and eagerly waiting. Happily they tasted how through brahma-jnana, through the widest touch, this Krishna-lila, this narration of the stories of Krishna's pastimes, which seems to be a narration of very limited and narrow things, passes through from Sukadev to the wider community of sages to become widely accepted by all. All these gentlemen for seven days attended this meeting and they all listened to Sukadev with such eagerness.

Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaj The World of Dedication So devotion has its beginning; the beginning of devotional life is here, where Krishna says 'vasudevah sarvam iti...' ("I, Vasudeva, am the source and substance of all that be" – BG 7:19). Then, the beginning of bhakti, the primary admission into the devotional school above jñana (knowledge) and vairagya (renunciation), that is santa-rasa ('passive' relation with the Lord). And from there, the gradation: dasya-rasa (servitude); then sakhya-rasa (fraternity); then vatsalya-rasa (parenthood); then madhura-rasa (conjugal love). All this is given in details in Ramananda-samvada⁶. In this way, bhakti is going up. Systematically, we are to understand, and digest, digest what is bhakti. But, in the beginning, we are to have a broad conception of the positive world, the world of dedication.

To err is human. To err is inevitable for all, being not perfect. Still, no one wants to remain imperfect. There is an element within all that is animate that tends towards perfection. If it were not so, we would feel no want at all. Our tendency towards perfection is certainly very weak and limited; otherwise we could attain the goal at once. Our limited capacity and tendency for perfection makes room for the guide or guru. The imperfect is not so if it is not in need of help, and that also from beyond itself. The perfect is not perfect if He cannot assert Himself or help others, and that too, of His own accord. So the guidance to perfection or Absolute Truth is necessarily a function of the absolute Himself, and the divine agent through whom this function manifests is Sri Guru or the divine guide. For a seeker of the Absolute Truth, submission to the guru is unavoidable. A class of thinkers believes, however, that when scientific research is possible, why cannot higher spiritual knowledge also be evolved from within? Such people are ignorant of the most essential nature of absolute Knowledge, that He alone is the Aksolute Subject and all else including ourselves constitutionally stand only as an object to His omniscient vision. It is impossible for the eye to see the mind; it can have some connection with the mind only when the latter cares to mind it. In a similar way, our connection with absolute knowledge depends mainly on His sweet will. We must solely depend on His agent, or the spiritual master, through whom He likes to distribute Himself. Our human society with its finest culture forms but an infinitesimal part of the dynamic absolute. How, except by the direct and positive method of revelation, dare we hope to comprehend or evolve any conception of the supernatural knowledge of the unconditioned infinite? All intellectual giants prove themselves but pygmies before the absolute omniscient omnipotence who reserves the right to give Himself away through His own agents alone. To our best knowledge and sincerity, however, we should see not to submit to a false agent. Here of course, we can't help ourselves very much; because in our present state we are mainly guided by our previous samskara or acquired nature. "Birds of the same feather flock together." Yet, although we are generally overpowered by habit, there is still the possibility of free choice to a certain extent, specially in the human species, otherwise correction becomes impossible, and punishment mere vengeance. Reality can assert itself. Light does not require darkness for its positive proof. The sun by itself can establish its supremacy over all other lights. Before an open and unbiased eye, the sad guru (real guide) shines above all professors of phenomenon. Sri Guru manifests himself mainly in a twofold way- -as the director from within and the preceptor from without. Both functions of the absolute help an individual soul--a disciple to reach the absolute goal. In our fallen state we cannot catch the proper direction of the inner guide, so the merciful manifestation of the preceptor without is our sole help and hope. But at the same time it is only by the grace of the guru within that we can recognize the real preceptor without and submit to his holy feet. A bona fide disciple must always remain fully awake to the fact that his highest spiritual fortune is but a gracious grant from the Absolute Lord, and not a matter of right to be demanded or fought out. Constitutionally, we are equipped only to be proper recipients of God's favor. In this connection it should be clearly understood that an individual soul can never be substantially the same as the Absolute Person. Not even in his liberated or fully realized condition can an individual soul be one with Godhead. The misconception of oneness has been introduced from the slothful nondiscrimination of the Absolute Personality from the luminous orb around His eternal, spiritual, and blissful home. In fact, an individual soul constitutes only a part of a particular power of intermediate value of the Supreme Lord, and as such he is capable of being converted from both sides. He differs from the absolute Entity both in quantity and quality; and is merely a dependent entity on the absolute. In other words, the Absolute Lord Krsna is the master,and an individual jiva soul is His constitutional subordinate or servant. Such a relationship is constant and really wholesome for the jiva. The apprehension of slavery does not arise because of his free choice and immense positive gain. The freedom and individuality of the jiva are not only unharmed bv surrender to the Absolute Good, but they really thrive in Him alone. Individual freedom and interest are the part and parcel of those who are of the absolute, and so they are quite at home there, as a fish is at home in water or an animal in a healthy atmosphere. But the freedom as well as all other qualities of the Supreme personality are unlimited and transcendental, and so only by their partial functions they harmonize all relative entities. Sri guru is not exclusively the same as the Supreme Lord Himself, but he fully represents the essence of the whole normal potency and embodies the most comprehensive and excellent service and favor of the Lord. As he is the fittest servitor of the Lord, he is empowered by the Lord to reinstate all misguided souls to their best interest. So, guru is the divine messenger of immortal hope and joy in this mortal and miserable world. His advent is the most auspicious and happy event to the suffering animation, and can be compared to the rising of the moming star that can guide the traveller lost in the desert. A gentle touch of sri guru's merciful hand can wipe off the incessant tears from all weeping eyes. A patriot or philanthropist makes the problem only worse in his frantic and futile attempt to alleviate the deeprooted pain of a suffering soul, as an ignorant doctor does in eagerly handling an unfortunate patient. Oh the day when this poor soul realizes the causeless grace of sri gurudeva. Swami B.R. Sridhara -this essay was originally published in 1934, in The Harmonist

"We are tatastha-sakti, marginal potency, and if we want to know any truth about higher reality, we must realize that it is more subtle than our existence, it is super-subjective: It can touch us, but we cannot climb up to that domain out of our own sweet will. Only if we are given the grace which can take us up can we go. "One who has this understanding will be able to combat all the existing intellectualists. The intellect has no capacity to enter into the higher subjective area. That supreme truth is atindriya-manasagocarah: beyond the plane of the senses, mind, and intellect. This expression manaso vapuso vaco vaibhavam tava gocarah by Brahma, admitting to Krsna that He was beyond the reach of his body, mind, and words, was not only a lip-deep statement of the mouth. If we want to know the absolute truth, the only condition for realizing Him is a submissive attitude. In that way, He may be satisfied with our attempt and reveal Himself to us. Divine revelation is not a matter of research within this world–we should have a sincere heart to serve. Srimad Bhagavatam (7.5.30) it is written: matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho bhipadyeta grha-vratanam adanta-gobirvisatam tamisram punah punas carvita-carvananam "Srimad-Bhagavatam tells us that we can try to enter the world of higher reality through intellectualism, but we will again come back, baffled in our attempts. If we try to press with our intelligence to enter into that domain, we will come back dissatisfied in despair and will wander here within this mortal world again and again. sreyah srtim bhaktim udasya te vibho klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye tesam asau klesala eva sisyate nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam "O Lord, those who want to have a clear conception of You through their intellect find their attempts useless. Their endeavors end only in frustration, like those who try to beat rice from an empty husk." ( Bhag. 10.14.4) "So jnana, knowledge, is like an empty husk. Energy and knowledge are only outer aspects. The real substance, the rice, is devotion–love. That is the tasteful thing within. Other things are covers (jnana-karmady-anavrtam). But what is within the cover is tasteful, eternal, auspicious, and beautiful: satyam, sivam, sundaram. Beauty is reality, ecstasy is reality; everything else is only an outer cover - with the cover, we cannot get the substance within. Then our life becomes a disappointment:." (Srila Sridhar Maharaja)

Wow, it takes super long posts to shut down a discussion like this. Almost but not quite. Almost only counts in Horse Shoes and handgrenades!

<table><tbody><tr><td> </td><td class="m">Chapter 19: Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Srila Rupa Gosvami</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya 19.151 brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija SYNONYMS brahmanda bhramite -- wandering in this universe; kona -- some; bhagyavan -- most fortunate; jiva -- living being; guru -- of the spiritual master; krishna -- of Krishna; prasade -- by the mercy; paya -- gets; bhakti-lata -- of the creeper of devotional service; bija -- the seed. TRANSLATION "According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Krishna. By the mercy of both Krishna and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service. PURPORT When we speak of brahmanda, we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all the universes there are innumerable planets, and there are innumerable living entities upon those planets -- in the air, on land and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by maya in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity, life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, one who is actually fortunate (bhagyavan) comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Krishna's mercy. Krishna is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Krishna fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Krishna consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Krishna, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru-krishna-prasada. Krishna is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a fortunate person is fortified by both Krishna and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Krishna and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from material bondage. How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Srila Narada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaishnavas. When these Vaishnavas were resting during the Caturmasya period, the boy Narada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaishnavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving these Vaishnavas and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of their sympathy, and by the Vaishnavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Narada Muni, the most exalted of Vaishnavas and the most important guru and acarya of Vaishnavas. Following in the footsteps of Narada Muni, this Krishna consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Krishna. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Krishna, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti -- love for Krishna -- and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107): nitya-siddha-krishna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Dormant devotional service to Krishna is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, dormant love for Krishna is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija.

Are sure you are not a Communist Viggy? This is the bogus mentality that's been going around ISKCON for almost four decades. If someone is an impersonalist then they would accept the impersonalist interpretation interpretation of brahmano hi pratisthaham, which has Sri Krsna saying, "the impersonal Brahman is my basis". The personalist understands that Krsna is really saying, "I am the basis of impersonal Brahman". Yet at the same time we must understand advaya-jnana-para-tattva: vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate ["Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan." (SB 1.2.11)] In a sense this verse was the very basis of the preaching of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada has quoted it numerous times. Prabhupada's 1970 pastime with the "fallen" sanyassis which came to head in New Vrndavana is quite mysterious. The end result was Krsna Consciousness spreading all over the Southern USA. At the same time there was created quite a paranoia about impersonalism in ISKCON. The effects of this were widespread and in the early seventies there definitely was a repressive mentality where impersonalists were found lurking everywhere. Individual persons have anarthas and so do groups. The early seventies irrational ISKCON paranoia about impersonalism lives on today in the minds of many ISKCON subgroups, such as PADA, Drutakarma's gang and none other than the deluded Sleeper-Vadi section.

CCC's Grades: Part 1 F- Part 2 F-

<center>Beauty is the Autocrat, Sweetness is the Autocrat, Love is the Autocrat </center> <center>by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja </center> Everything is to be enjoyed by the Lord. If we can understand this principle of life then it is our duty to taste only what He has already enjoyed. We are to approach divinity, reality, in this spirit of dedication. If we can practice this habit we can be free from the whole of the illusory potency. All our duties should be done in a spirit subservient toward the Centre according to His direction or at even a higher level of understanding according to His own whims. The autocrat has chalked out a path and I am exclusively following that path. If we do not follow or if we stand still, that is an offence. And if I go in another direction, that is also an offence. We must follow in the footsteps of that Autocrat. The principal way of upper life is to follow in the footsteps of the Autocrat in a serving mood. This is the real path. All our illusions will be conquered if we can only try to accept this principle of life. If we do not try for this, it is an offence even to our own selves. And if we do otherwise, that is also an offence. This is law above all law. And for our own best interests, we must mark this. Following His footsteps faithfully, as no other law is possible here, because He is actually the Autocrat. We shall not be the losers because He is a sweet and loving Autocrat. He is the Autocrat but He is sweet. And you will also get sweetness, fulfilment and love by following in the footsteps of that Autocrat. Beauty is the Autocrat; Sweetness is the Autocrat; Love is the Autocrat – and that is beyond all law. We are required by that dynamic character to follow in those footsteps everywhere to the nearest millimetre. This is the summary of the all-serving principle coming from the lotus mouth of Sri Uddhava, considered the greatest devotee according to the consideration of Sri Krsna Himself. Of course, Uddhava admires the gopis’ love for the Lord, but more risk is there in that kind of Divine Love. Their opposition to the sweetness also becomes service in such positions where the servants are crossing the realm of their master. Service, the all-serving principle, has got such a position! Service reaches such a stage of nearness that even the Autocrat comes down to His devotees. Such risky service is possible. ajnayaivam gunan dosan, mayadistan api svakan dharman santyajya yah sarvan, mam bhajeta sa ca sattamah (Srimad Bhagavatam, 11.11.32)“In society, one must obey the law. But there is also the possibility of crossing the law to show faithfulness to the king. If one risks his life and reputation in crossing the general law, and thereby enters into the royal chambers to fight with an assassin, then he will be considered the best and most loyal servitor. Similarly, the Lord is saying, I have already ordered in the scriptures, “Do this and you shall be promoted. If, by crossing My previous orders on a particular level, one follows My footsteps, then he is sure to be promoted.” We shall then find no charm for the temptations that are around us. Our intuition – our far-sightedness – will say to us, “do not follow these travelling phenomenal proposals. They are not reliable, but treacherous. They are like black market dealings with some self-interest for profit and gain, trying to get more than the real market price for a commodity. These proposals will be detrimental for your progressive march towards Divinity. Do not allow yourself to be captivated by these external charms – they are treacherous exhibitions. Only take the prasadam which is enjoyed by the Lord.” Everything should be done with this idea in mind, and this will fully relieve us. Whatever you do, whether in dress or in food, you are to act according to what is sanctioned by Him – following in His footsteps. We shall always perform everything in that consciousness – in God consciousness or Krsna consciousness. God is Beauty and He is the Autocrat. Whatever our engagement, we shall perform with the help of Krsna consciousness in our heart and divine help will come to us beyond our wildest expectations. Doing nothing or acting without the proper attitude, the proper consciousness, is considered detrimental. Whatever you do, you should do in the proper consciousness at every step. You should do everything in a legal way in the highest sense of the term. “Legal” which in this instance means He who propounds the law. We shall do according to His will, the will of the autocrat, Sri Krsna. This is the sum and substance. We are to go on with Krsna Consciousness following at every step in this way. We are to go on eating, sleeping and doing all our duties, but always in the association of Krsna. Whatever we do must be done in Krsna consciousness, otherwise all activities are futile.

Mahak you are confusing lila with karma. The divine lila of the Absolute is non-dual. Everything within the lila is taking place for the pleasure of Krsna and this is all arrainged by the internal energy or Yoga Maya. What goes on in the realm of the genuine conditioned souls is governed by Durga devi or Maha Maya. Akrura was and is an eternal associate of Krsna and he is behaving like an actor in a play. Akrura is not to be considered subject to the three-fold miseries like we are. Then again, he wasn't exactly the favorite of the Gopis.

What you call the no-fall theory is certainly the siddhanta of both Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur as shown in previous posts. Krsna says: <center>The Yoga of the Supreme Person</center> TEXT 27 brahmano hi pratisthaham amrtasyavyayasya ca sasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikantikasya ca SYNONYMS brahmanah--of the impersonal brahmajyoti; hi--certainly; pratistha--the rest; aham--I am; amrtasya--of the immortal; avyayasya--of the imperishable; ca--also; sasvatasya--of the eternal; ca--and; dharmasya--of the constitutional position; sukhasya--happiness; aikantikasya--ultimate; ca--also. TRANSLATION And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal. If Krsna is the basis of brahman or "the impersonal brahmajyoti" then the tatastha origin of the jivas is only apparently impersonal. It just involves adjusting ones angle of vision. Advanced Gaudiya Vaisnavas who are fixed in their eternal relationship with Krsna such as Prabhupada, his guru and param gurus have realization that is experiential. The slokas and commentaries come alive in their hearts. They see Krsna "face to face". There is nothing more personal or less personal when it comes to those great saints who have come down from Goloka to perform the service (Radharani's service) of engaging the conditioned souls in devotional service.

Your arguments are with the words from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Krsna das Kaviraja. You cannot harmonize: nitya-siddha krishna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya and jivera 'svarupa' haya – krsnera 'nitya-dasa' krsnera 'tatastha'sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa' You are dreaming that you are dreaming that you have a "swarupa body" in Goloka. The question is how can the conditioned jivas be nitya siddha and tatastha'sakti simultaneously? There must always be a living authority otherwise arguments like this will go on forever, with no judge. People like Drutakarma and the Sleeper-Vadi guru whoever he is are the living authorities for their followers on at least this subject. Their denials that they have taken the position of some sort of guru is like one who writes a book explaining how no books are needed.

P.S. Show us one quote from Srila Prabhupada's books where he actually uses the words, "we actually originated from Goloka". You cannot and you won't even find anything close. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.30.5, purport, If Srila Prabhupada wanted us to accept as you say, "we actually originated from Goloka" then he never would have written the above statement in his Bhaktivedanta Purport. We accept him as most intellegent and realized, not some kind of fool!

So here we see the real "fairytale" which is that Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers were somehow impersonalists. That they either translated or engaged others to translate the Bengali writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur with an impersonalist slant. Most of us can understand that Srila Prabhupada's ban on his godbrothers was for time, place and circumstance. But even if you accept that ban as being ongoing; where did Srila Prabhupada ever write or say that it was because his godbrothers were impersonalists? He never, ever wrote or spoke such a statement, yet this was an ignorant myth floating around ISKCON that I first heard in 1971. I immediately rejected such a concept for I percieved it to be absurd and illogical and no one could provide any evidence of Prabhupada ever writing or saying such a thing. Also, it is no longer the late sixties or early seventies and many of the Bengali writings of both Thakurs and the previous acaryas have been translated by ISKCON devotees. None of these ISKCON translators has ever alledged that they have found anything impersonal in the tranlations either of the godbrothers or their disciples. Consequently the Drutakarma Fall-Vadi Camp and the Sleeper-Vadi camp are serious offenders to both Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers, his guru, his param gurus and the entire guru varga for they are making an organized attempt to counter their siddhanta or devotional conclusions. Furthermore their aparadha extends to all the eternal, internal associates of Sri Bhagavan in both His original form and His expansions.

Just another attempt by fanatics from ISKCON origins to divorce Srila Prabhupada from his entire guru parampara. It doesn't work, you are only divorcing yourself from his guru parampara (varga).

This is from Srila Prabhupada's poem called Viraha Astaka, written in 1958 (translated from Bengali): <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> 5) Lord Gauranga used many tricks just to engage the conditioned souls in devotional service, and you have also understood how to use all those tricks perfectly well. 6) You understood time, place and circumstance, and utilized everything as a strategy for preaching. Although observing your activities with their very eyes. those who are blind like owls and other creatures of the night could not see your true purpose. It seems that this is the basis of the what Guruvani calls the “ISKCON fairytales”. Srila Govinda Maharaja of the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math has explained this as,“preaching or pravacan may sometimes cross siddhanta (the devotional conclusions)”. This is an example of “by hook or by crook” or the use of "many tricks to engage the conditioned souls in devotional service". Sometimes these trick statements may even be in Prabhupada's purports yet within those purports we will always find the true siddhanta. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.30.5, purport, Once we have been engaged by "hook or by crook" it is up to us to try to understand all this by what Srila Saraswati Thakur called making, "the proper adjustment". Sleeper Vada is the improper adjustment and will only create a disturbance in the devotional community. <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->