Subham

Hari OM: If sudanese and Nigerian are suffering due to following foolish religions, THEN Why did "Choosen people" suffered at the hand of Hitler, due to their very intelligent religion Judaism? Why did Indians suffered at the hand of Moghul emperors for thousand years, due to their divine religion Hinduism? Why did Japanese suffered by Atom Bomb, due to their true religion Buddhism? Every body suffers/enjoys ONLY their Karma (present and Past), you can't attribute it to God, without making him appear an idiotic and cruel person

Hari OM: Thank you for saying I am Krishna, but no thanks, i like to remain Subham , as of now. the first basic question, remains still, if i am Krishna (as you Say), then how did i forgot i am Krishna , again as stated in Gita, "Krishna never forgets any of the past Births, while Arjuna forgets all his past birth", so either i am not Krishna, or the above verse in Gita is a lie, i would prefer the first part. "get directly to act of realiseing in yourself" Can you please kindly explain , How?

Hari OM: When to throw and how to throw away the Scriptures, you will know when you "REALIZE" you will not be bothered with those questions then , scriptures will be then like a pool of water to you, who is the owner of a brim of water sheet overflowing on all the sides, all the time. However, if you had not actually "realized" the truth, but take an egoistic (or illusory) stand that you had indeed "realized" the truth and throw the scriptures right away, your natural qualities will start pulling you on all sides, and with neither the self-knowledge nor the guidance of scriptures, you will be torn apart like a cloud and nothing to stand upon, will be lost (to the spiritual path) so dear friend, dont assume, after read once, that you had understood Gita, read it again and again, daily, until you really understand it. Many people jump to their own conlusions without understanding what the author of the book says. [ Also try to understand the real meaning of "Brahmo Satyam Jagat Nityam" on which the Advainta philosphy is built]

Hari OM: Then what about flooding in Gujarat, Cyclones, Tsunami, earth quake, land slides... If God does not like crooks so much why did he create them. If one Good Family is surronded by 99 Crook families and God in his "anger" destorys all the 100 families then who is to blame for that one Family, definitely it is not their fault, being surrounded by crook families, Every one should enjoy/suffer the consequences of ONLY his actions, no way his neighbours actions. i think the rains are increasing due to global warming ( a human action) and destruction is increasing, because more people per square feet are living now and also they had "intelligently" turned most of the drainage system into residential flats.

Hari OM: Fresh after the week-end "why you are making him a head" i am not making him the Head, i don't have that power to make Him anything, He is the Head and He was kind enought to make me his family member. "he needs your love just love" And service, i.e., a loving service, not a fear ful service, not a dis-interested service, not a crooked service, not a half-hearted service, but highly efficient ande fully loving service. Most of the confusion can be traced to Maha Vakya of Adi Shankarachraya: "Brahmo Satyam, Jagat Nityham" which is generally (mis?) interperted as Brahaman is True and the universe is False, but i think the real meaning is "Brahaman is eternal while Universe is Transient" Also further i think "Brahaman" is not some abstract pheonomen, which is subjected to our own fancy interperations. Rather Brahaman is (or most probably is) a "Gentic Pool" from which each species dervies its own "Genetic Pool". This seems to be matching to the current research, since they say, there must be a Common and a single Genetic Pool from which all Humans derive their identity, otherwise the universally changing Physical (taller...), mental (passionate...) traits can't be explained. Of Course Hinduism has this concept for long time and is called "Manu" (the genetic pool of Man). All the characterstics of Men (including gender), from Birth to Death, can change through their life, except for Human identity, and the Human identity is based on that Genetic Pool. Similarly for an individual soul, even species changes from its creation to dissolution (man, animal, bird...) but it has a common Inidividual "existence" , which is the based on the one single Genetic Pool, called the Brahamam (AHAM) Note in Gita, Bhagavan also refers to Brahamam as a "Substance" (no body has the power to destroy the substance) not as an "idea" And also note that scriptures are the true guide, until self realization is achieved as stated in Gita, "Those ignorant, untotured men who donot follow scriptures don't view things right" So you can throw away scriptures only AFTER self-realization, not BEFORE it.

Hari OM: it is not my statement, He tells in Gita " I always engage in action, even if for a second I don't work all this world will perish " so it is like a one family, with God (Bhagvan) at the "Head" position , with lot of sub-families, each one with their own "Heads" (Indira for Demi-Gods, Manu for Man, Iravatha for Elephants, Garuda for Birds, etc., etc.,) Each member of the family should obey and serve his own Head as well as the ultimate Head (God(Bhagvan)) Of course if a member of the family does not serve him a (good) family head does not get annoyed or starts killing them , but it would definitely affect the member (and even family) in the long run. Other than Serving Him, if you also realize that all this whole family rests on single Unity, "Brahamam", then you become wise (and still keep serving the Head - in fact the highest type of devotee as stated in Gita) However if you had not realized , but still serving him, you are still considered a devotee of Him. But instead if you start telling, "I am the Head of this whole family and the Head of this whole family is me", you may just create confusion....

Hari OM: i think all this confusion, is because "Brahamam" and "Bhagavan" are translated to "GOD" While i have no problem claiming myself as Brahamam (Aham Brahama asmi) , i can't claim myself as Bhagavan. in Vishnu Shasranama, Vishnu is called "Para Pithamaha" - Great Grandfather , while Brahama is called Pithamaha - Grand Father. unless some body can claim my great grand father and me are the one and same person, i can't think any body can claim "i am bhagvan and bhagvan is me" of course most of the human can claim , both me and my great grand father are human (except Darwin and his followers) , in same way we can claim both me and Bhagvan are manifesations of Brahmam (and in spiritually advanced individuals like Shankrachraya, they can claim we both are Brahamam)

Hari OM: If God is in the reader, then why does he even need to read the scriptures? as of now, i still believe that , There is only one "Brahamam" which manifests itself as infinite life forms , one of the forms is Bhagvan (the most powerful and intelligent form of all the manifested) Also the "Brahamam" does not decide which soul would get which life-form , every soul should work their own Karma to get their life-form (i.e., even God (Bhagavan) has to work (and keep working )his own way to become Bhagavan)

Hari OM: As per my understanding , Brahmam and Bhagavan are not synonomus. "Eko Brahamam Anekam Budham" -- means one Brahmam manisfets itself as infinite life-forms and one of that life form is Bhagvan. It is like You, Your Parents, Teacher, Friends, Brothers are all united in One common Factor -- "The Human", however all are not same, in fact not even equal. Same way all the manifested life forms , God (Bhagvan), Demi Gods, Asuras, Human, Animals, Birds, Trees .... are united in One common Factor -- "The Brahamam", however all are not same, in fact not even equal. i think this is the reason for the term "Vasudeva Kudamabam" , i.e., the entire species of this universe is a single family.

Hari OM: There are two sanskrit words "Brahaman" and "Bhagvan (or Ishvar)". Both of them translate into the same English word "GOD", so please let me know which God (B-God or I-God) you are referring to...

Hari OM: You may be right or may not be right, i don't know. But if "Man is God" then what is the need for "maintaining discpline" and "teaching" to him? Please clarify...

Hari OM: if you are looking for a teacher, you are looking at a wrong place, i am also a seeker and can't teach you (A blind man can't lead another) If you say "Assumptions lead to Truth", i have no objections, i also agree that our assumptions when subjected to impartial and unbiased , tireless analysis may one day lead to truth. However i can't understand (and hence agree) "Assumption and Truth are the same"

Hari OM: If Assumption and Truth are the same, then why we should search for the Truth, we can assume anything we like and convince ourseleves, really i can't understand this point (may be my mind is out of tune, can't say) i am not "afraid" of you using very ids and posting various views, it was just my suggestion that if we search truth then we must first be truthful to ourselves..

Hari OM: There is no ALL God, there is only one God. God is not known by Man, He should be realized by Man Formless and Nameless aspect of God is as true as the God with Form(s) and Name(s), this Truth is vouched by many Yogis and Siddhas who had their direct experience, if you can't comprehend that aspect, it does not make their experience false.

Hari OM: Dear "Holy Land" friend please understand there is difference between Theology and Practice Example Koran Says "There is no complusion in religion" very few Muslims follow that, Koran Says "Don't have trade relation with nob-belivers" very few Muslims follow that (i had never seen one Muslim until now refusing to take me as their customer) Gita Says, "This book is not for people who find fault with me" but you translate that and start explaining to people finding fault with it. If Muslims (and You) are not following the Thelogy, it is not my problem, and i am not interested in correcting any body of you. i was just making a Theological comparsion of the two belief systems, since some body had raised this topic earlier.

Hari OM: Since you are so much interested in arguments..... Personal God , means a god with form and name, impresonal God is without them (Brahman concept) i don't know what is "Holy Land" i am talking about Islam, not Muslims. Gita is not for Disbelivers, "This should be not be told to person lacking interest and in no case to him who finds fault with me"

Hari OM: i think your statement is close to Advaitha, however one point not clear to me in Advaitha:- "All that exist is divine. Caught in the illusion of ego" How Divine is Caught by illusion? Do you have any possible explanations here?

Hari OM: A few people had compared both in this forum. i don't know much about other religions, but from what i can deduct from reading and understanding is: There are few similarities between them: 1) Both have a personal God 2) Both have a Holy Book 3) Both talk about surrender to God 4) Both talk about this life is insignificant 5) Both approve war for the Sake of God. However i also found one major difference. In Islam "Service to God" is the means and "Paradise" is the end while in Vaishnavam "Service to God" is the means and the end, in fact they reject "Paradise" explicity in favour of "Service to God"

Hari OM: [ Thanks for pointing this omission] "i din't mean that God is painful . that is again your assumption" This is not my assumption, it is called inference Your statement -- "Truth is Painful" Veda's Statement - "Truth is God" My inference -- "God is Painful" Inference is different from assumptions. Any how all the best for you in your search. Also if you are searching for truth remember to be truthful always, like use the same login id for all the threads, post similar views in all the threads, etc., unless we are truthful to our selves we can never find the absolute truth..

"If you want it, i will say to you his name and some informative links.." Thank you and i would be grate ful for that. i agree with you that Praying intensely to God is the only available way for liberation (either He directly liberates, or shows a true spiritual master who can Guide me in liberation) also i understand that the attraction to His material energy (the world) is what preventing me in progressing in spiritual path and also confident (or hopeful) that would achieve liberation if not in this birth at least the next, by His Grace.

"all humans are suffering now and there. that is truth" May be or May not be, i am in search of truth and i don't know the truth yet. IF "Truth is Painful" And "God is Truth" (TAT SAT) this implies ---> "God is Painful" (atleast the logical implication) What we know now may not be true knowledge, it is a conditioned knowledge which is conditioned to meet some imaginary universal standards, the knowledge we get (from books, tv, news papers, other people etc., ) makes us to think in the conditioned way. So all your statements like "Truth is Painful", "without experience we can't cross ignorance", "all humans are suffering nowBody will suffer till decaythe confusion is created with mind as its realted to body and thus the stop for further aim is restricted" may be simple assumptions based on your day-to-day knowledge gathering experience from various sources. As per Nyaya Sastra , we have six authortative source to knowledge (all other sources are non-authortative and hence may be just assumptions) 1) Direct Sensory Perception 2) Scriptures 3) Hearing from Great Men 4) Inference and Deduction (like seeing a smoke we can infer there is fire, i.e., logic) 5) Experience (real experience, unclouded by bias or prejudice) 6) Direct Transcandental knowledge , which is called wisdom, obtained in Samadhi state. The Average men has only 5 sources functioning only great men has the 6th Gate opened [For your info, not only rishis and yogis, even scientist have their 6th knowledge operating, for eg., Archimedis , Newton and Eintensin, the knowledge is revealed to them in Samadhi, where they have lost sense of everything, including themseleves, (that is why Archimedis ran nude in the street after revelation)] Now may be you should start building your case by basing your statements on the above 6 factors and see if there are facts (no need to convince me or others, just convince yourself)

Hari OM: i think i understand what you are telling, "things which appear like poison in the beginning may end up as nectar in the end and things that appear like nectar in the beginning may end up as poison in the end" - a verse in Gita (because material enjoyment appears like nectar in the beginning while Karma, Gyana, Bhakti, etc., appears like poison in the beginning] and thanks for the information about Guna and planents it was news to me...

Hari OM: yes i agree that we all have lot of assumptions and we have to start many things (including studying of Gita) with assumptions and i was not blaming you for that, only thing for progressing we should start analyzing our own thoughts, whether it is assumption or is based on some facts (so your statement may be like "i was not good in studies, but i think (or assume) god helped me to sail through"- if you make that the next question to come to your mind may be why god helped you in the studies and so on...), when we start critically analyzing our own words and thoughts we will start making progress (or may go mad, but be prepared for the risk, no risk no gain) As for Gunas, there is one full Chapter in Gita about Gunas it would be too lengthy to discuss here (and i am also not very clear about it yet), so please read it and try to understand. The basic definition of Guna is Man can do action either intelligently (sattivic), emotionally (rajasic) or ignorantly (tamasic) , but god is "Nirguna" -- he does actions not through these three [ and when we understand then How does He act, we also would become Nirguna (which is stated to be the liberation)]

Hari OM: There is difference between facts and assumptions, for making real progress, need to seperate facts from our assumptions. "as i was always a poor student in my studies. still god has seen that i am taken care in every step" This may be your assumption. You may assume that i am an intelligent person and same way i may be assuming that you are asking questions sincerely and not for mocking, but all the assumptions may be false. Now "Marks" as per Gita's definition is "Guna" - we can assume that each unit of "Sattava" is +1, "Rajas" is 0 and "Tamas" is -1. Every action (includes words and thoughts also) you do may give you some units of Guna and the cummulative sum total of all the Guna's at the time of your death determines the choices available to you. You have two desires: 1) Liberation of Your self 2) Guidance (or proof) of Liberation to Others You have to first achieve the first step before thinking about second , other wise you will be a Hyprocite (who teaches Liberation to others who himself is not Liberated) and if you achieve the first step you will automatically know about second step. Karma Yoga is one of the ways of achieving liberation, Karma Yoga is some thing like all your actions do not give you any "Mark" and is different from "Good Actions" which give you +ve mark. So Good Actions does not liberate some body, it just gives better choices

Hari OM: Don't contradict yourself (another point from Vedas- Nyaya Sastra- the science of Logic)--- "Krishna is telling on the ignorance part of the human. and indicating that human life is to just thrive for God until surrender him self to him" " i don't know which suits me the best. as i am not clear" If Krishna is telling You to Surrender then why you are not clear which suits you the best? i think probably your predicament is you read and understand some thing from Gita, and you look to others to confirm that your understanding is correct (in that you are assuming inherently that if 8 out of 10 people say it is correct then you had understood correctly, however, dear friend democratic principles does not apply here), just try to read again and again sincerely and any misunderstandings He will remove by His grace, don't look for approval from people. When you understand it correctly, automatically all your confusion would go away. What choice you have to make? good question but no straight answers except to make any choice you like, "Karmnava Adhikerasi" - You alone have the right to make choices. However when you make a choice you have to go through that and enjoy/suffer all its consequence - Of course the choices available to you depends on how well you completed your past actions (the remanants of the past actions) -- say if you had completed your school with very good marks- you can select any college of your choice, study school again or quit, however if you had failed school then only two options-study again or quit. Same thing if you complete this life with high "marks" then you have choices of Paradise/heaven, royal/wealthy family, sensual families, stupid beasts, etc., but if you complete this life with low "marks" then only choice may be stupid beasts. The Choice of liberation happens only if you get Infinite marks and one of the ways to get infinite marks is Karma Yoga, until you get the choice of liberation, choose the best possible option available to you. i hope you found some thing useful in this, if so please read Gita regularly and chant "Hare Ram Hare Ram Ram Ram Hare Hare Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare" whenever possible.