Subham

Hari OM: Dear OM Namah Shivayah JI Yes the true eternal nature of every being is (or should be) Atma, but the encapsulated nature of being is Jiva and hence appears as divided. As stated in my earlier thread, The Brahamam is the pure SatChitAnand Substance (note substance here) which can be considered as the Parent Genetic Pool of every living thing, over which is super imposed the Genetic Pool of individual species and then the Genetic Pool of Individuality (this point i had argued that without a common human genetic pool, the world wide characterstics changes would be hard to explain) The individual "i" is the sum total of -physical, sensual, mind, intellect all these "things" experience the outer world (a physical-electro-chemical process), the Jiva however does not take part in experience it just perceives all the experiences (in Gita Soul is said to be the Cause of Joy and Sorrow for individual Jiva, even though it by itself is not affected by Joy or Sorrow) And my interperation of Karma-Yoga is that the Jiva always without disruption Perceives the supreme reality, while the lower self (consisting of mind, intellect, body and senses) can do whatever they like to do. Also i think the correct term for the other bird is "Chaitnyam" not "mind"

Hari OM: thank you for the reply. it was not entirely unfounded of Ravi to assume that you are mocking Hinduism, since the first christian missionaries entered india stating that they want to learn about Hinduism but ended up saying "Vedas is nothing but some utter rubbish by ignorant Shepherds" even though later scholars corrected this mis-perception a lot of damage was already don, because the founders of modern india (people like nehru) were fully british indians, that is they viewed Hinduism from the eyes of those so-called "Scholars" and hence ended up dismissing Hinduism as rubbish without bothering to cross-check the facts (also not much material was available at that time), in fact nehru was so much unconfident about ourselves that he even refused to accept victories, un permanent seat or any thing, he always looked to the white-man of UN for guidance , since he strongly believed Hinduism is rubbish and no Hindu is intelligent enough to guide India (even though there were articles of US president seeking advice of Rajaji). india has paid (and is still paying ) dearly for the so-called "research" and the believers of that "research" However as per the basic karma-theory you are responsible only for your actions, so it would not be correct to be harsh towards you for some body else faults. if you really like Hinduism, there is no need to convert , (you can just follow the basic Dharma teaching but can have any name, dress, habits you like), it would be much more helpful if you can educate your christian brethren that Hinduism is not the "religion of Satan" as has been continuously feed to them, but it contains the most beautiful and true universal laws, the most important being Karma theory and ask them to learn and follow it as much as possible, so that this world will again become a peaceful and beautiful place and people can start evolving in their spirtiual scale.

Hari OM: first to become a Hindu, you would need to drop all the things you (had assumed you) know about God, like God is a seperate entity sitting some where far-off in the universe. As per Gita (the most authorative text of Hinduism), God manifests himself in many forms -like lion among animals, Garuda among Birds, Vasukai among Snakes, etc., etc., so all the life-forms you see in the universe are but part of his manifestation. So it is ok to worship Him in any form- divine, human, animal, bird, reptile or in His formless absolute aspect, but you should remember whichever form you choose to worship you are always worshipping Him inside the form not the form itself. Also it does not matter whether the form is made of Gold, stone, wood, turmeric powder, clay , cow dung etc., the form just serves the initation purpose after which you turn the attention to the principle behind that form.

Hari OM: Dear Aqua3 Ji, i am very thank ful for your nice reply. my situation is like this, i am having both "desire for sensual (or material) enjoyment" and "fear of that enjoyment" as you had rightly pointed out the basic desire for enjoyment is being amplified by the external stimuli. but unlike a quite average human being i am unable to just fulfill the desire and reap the consequences later, due to various reading of texts, now along with the desire there also comes a "fear of that desire" that what would happen if i do that- will i fall down in the evolution scale? will i be affected in the current life? what and how that action would affect people (both my near and dear as well as unknown), etc., etc., so i was looking to Him initally to do either one of the below: 1) Remove the "desire for enjoyment" 2) Give Assurance that i can just indulge in the desires and nothing "bad" would happen to me. But then i started realizing this is not correct, now from your thread i had become much more clearer and had decided to first do meditation and calm the mind before proceeding furhter. i am thank ful for all your posts and pray to Him "Let Him Shower His Grace on you at the earliest"

Hari OM: as per my understanding "things" have a person-principle duality. That is they exist as a principle as well as a Person. The person (who can be considered as the controller of the principle) is usually identified with prefix "Maha" Example Space as a principle is denoted by Vishnu ( everywhere can be only space) and the person by Maha Vishnu Time as a principle is denoted by Shiva (referred to as Kal Ka Ji -- master of Time) and the person by Maha Deva Wealth as a principle by Laxmi and controller by Maha Laxmi Intelligence as a principle by Indra and controller by Mahe Indra. i think (that is just think or assume) in the same way Brahamam denotes the principle -consicuoness and the controller is denoted by Brahman. Please let me know your opinion on my view...

Hari OM: It is very true that Truth depends on Existence, but i think it also depends on the preception of existence. For example as you had rightly pointed out for "sun rises in the east" to be true the first condition is that Sun should exist. But even with the existence of Sun, a life at Saturn would say this statement is false, since Saturn rotates anti-clockwise and hence sun would appear to rise from the west there. i think in similar way for universe to exist, need to have two factors - The Brahamam plus my own perception of Brahmam, while the first factor is constant and unchanging , the second changes from person to person. Also on a side note, some where you had mentioned that nobody can argue his mother is barren, even though logically this seems to be true, i think as per sastras a women is considered barren if she has only one son (so that son can make the above statement)- i think had read this story some where related to Adi Shankrachraya, but couldn't recollect now. Will study your further points and reply later.

Hari OM: "How / why is perception of change called karma?" Karma means action, now what is the action of Soul or Consicuoness (which is I) as per my understanding Soul does only one action that is Perception, the senses experience the Objects and the Soul perceives the experience , if the Soul just perceives the underlying truth then he is called a Karma-Yogi, that is even though his body, senses and mind engage in action his consicouness does not perceive the experience of the senses, it is just perceiving the one truth always. i dont have a clear proof for this, but please let me know if this sounds logically acceptable? i will try to understand your other points and reply at the earliest, however please find one question "But Bhagavan says unmincingly in 10-10 that he will give buddhi yoga (dadaami buddhi yogam) to the one who meditates s on Him" But some where in this thread there was a mention that "Mind Can not reach Him" if Mind cannot reach Him then what is the significance of Buddhi Yoga or Gyana Yoga. Can you try to answer this apparent contradiction also? While writing this i had one more doubt arising What is the relation between Mind and Thoughts? Whether Mind goes in search of Thoughts or Thoughts come in search of Mind. i am asking this because i am trying to avoid some thoughts but finding it difficult to achieve, so should i restrain the mind (first case) or shield the mind (second case) -- actually i tried both but not very successful

"Do you think Brahman and the Universe are the same even after analyzing the BG?" as per my understanding , similar to a man having three layers of existence - Gross (Physical, sensual) Subtle (mind, intelligence) and Casual (consicuoness) Universe also has three levels- Gross (Virat swaroop), Subtle (Indra) and Casual (Brahaman or HiryanaGrabha) in that way Brahaman and Universe may be different but denotes the same thing, ( also i think Brahman and Brahamam were different and i was discussing about Brahamam not Brahaman)

Hari OM: "Once again in the spirit of sahanaavavathu…no offence anywhere… ok?" if i had meant offence anywhere, sorry it was purely unintentional, i am very thank ful for your enlighting reply, i was just trying to ask some sincere questions, some might have looked offensive due to my carelessness , sorry for that would try to be more careful in future. What is Truth? A very loaded question, even though i could not remember any Pramana or evidence, my analysis is like "Truth is One which never changes" For example take a statement "Sun rises in the east" is this true? yes but only in some Space-Time area, for example any life living in Saturn would say this statement is False, while a life in Sun itself will say this statement is irrelevant. Like wise if we analyaze each and every statement, we can find that only one (statement or Substance) remains the same before the start of Creation, during the time of creation and after destruction and that Is called Brahamam. We may also classify the above as Absolute truth and other statements as relative truth , i.e., truth with respect to a fixed Space-Time parameters and false outside.

Hari OM: A Hindu on the average is more at Peace (with Himself and with the rest of the universe) and happy than most of the other religionst of the world. Why? mainly because of the knowledge of Karma and the eternity of time-span and life cycles, embedded to him through Puranas and epics (and very few through Upanishads). Hindus are in general wealthy (even during recent times) famine least affected India, which is the land of most rivers than any other country, good climatic and natural conditions with flourshing arts and other beauties. However now the forces that try to pull away Hindus is increasing, why? because the stakes are increasing, in addition to the above + points, now Hindus would also be reaching Pithr, Heaven and even liberation very easily by chanting God's names. As is the natural course, if the stakes are increasing then the obstacles would also increase. The obstacles can be broadly classified into four categories: Saama:- Nice way of telling "Hindusim is flawed get out of it"-- this includes reformists, comedians, social "thinkers", etc., Bedha:- Telling the above in a Harsh way including Scolding the people and the God, this includes athesist, Christian missionaries, etc., Dhana:- Showing the senusal opulences like wealth, sexy actress etc., and pulling away from Dharma. Dhand:- Physical punishment or terror of physical punishment, mainly Muslims and very opressive rulers (chinese, russian dictators) So Hindus should realise first what a great blessing that they got a Birth as Hindu and second use that blessing to achieve Liberation ( and nothing less than that) i could not see in the near future any of these four "Damscles sword" loosing its effectiveness, rather it seems to be picking up pace, even casting doubt on Chaitnya MahaPrabhus statement Dharama will be prevelant for the first 10,000 years of Kali-Yuga (and hence this period can be called the Golden age)

Hari OM: Dear Aqua3 Ji, Thanks for your clear and profound replies, now my doubts are slowly getting cleared , like smoke clearing from a fire (or dirt clearing from a mirror) At my present level of understanding, i have come to the following conclusion: The Brahamam IS the truth or Pure existence with out any distinctions (i.e., evil does not touch Him) However my Perception of the Truth is clouded by my Attachement. And since my Attachement is changing continuously i perceive a constantly changing Brahamam (or universe). This perception of change can be called Karma and this perception always tries to balance each other so that the total perceived is zero (both at Jiva and Brahamam level) i.e., even though the Brahamam itself is changeless and Attributeless , each Jiva perceives it with some Attribute, but the total perceptions by all Jiva at any point of time is zero, i think this is a quantum jump in my understanding, moving all the cause, effect and changes from Brahamam to Jiva level. When a Jiva perceives only the Truth without any color added by its attachement then it is called Advaitha (i.e., one without the other, the other in this case being his own interpertation of the reality) This also fits into "Brahamo Satyam, Jagat Nityam" if we assume Jagat as our perception of the Brahamam (which is constanly changing) However now i have got a few additional doubts:- "But Bhagavan says unmincingly in 10-10 that he will give buddhi yoga (dadaami buddhi yogam) to the one who meditates s on Him" But some where in this thread there was a mention that "Mind Can not reach Him" if Mind cannot reach Him then what is the significance of Buddhi Yoga or Gyana Yoga. "I is the subject and Him is object. Know is the facilitating agent, which is consciousness" But as per vedic statements , I is Consciousness (Aham Brahama Asmi , Pragyanja Brahamam) , so then I is both the subject and the facilitating agent (which helps the subject)? Can you please help me clarify these doubts also, and i am greatful to you for all the explantions so far. Thank you...

Hari OM: Sorry for a brief reply,will try to read more and elabolartely on Monday. Your reply was as usual very detailed and good, and i as usual am having still some basic doubts. If as per your statement Brahamam was Nirguna only until the point of creation starting,the statement "Brahamam IS Nirguna" is false it should be rather "Brahamam WAS Nirguna" however many Acharyas state "Brahamam IS Nirguna" Regarding your reply for Karma, my understanding is "Both Karma and its fruit are automatic resulting in each other in cycles. We don't have control over anything. However we can either remain attached to them or remain unattached to them,i.e., we still have control over our attachment to them. Remaining attached to them is called bondage, while remaining unattached is liberation." Is my understanding correct, if yes, then i was just discussing about the cause of Karma and its fruit being cyclic and arguing that it being cyclic is due to the Nirguna aspect of Brahamam and no other cause (like Bhagavans wish or random effects, etc.,) if my understanding of your reply is not correct (more probable case),please excuse me, i will read in more detail and reply on Monday. Om Nama Shivaya JI: you are correct that IF i am Brahamam then i must be Nirguna, however i consider myself as part of Brahamam, having some attributes,however some other part has an equal opposite attribute , and hence the sum TOTAL of all the parts (which i consider Brahamam) remains Nirguna. Please let me know if you still consider my threads are contradicatory (it may be wrong though, but i think it is not contradicatory)

Hari OM: Dear Aqua3 Ji, Very excellent reply, thank you very much. now i have a much more deep understanding on Karma aspect of Gita. The equation i had given in the above Post is like, a logical (or syllogical if you please) statement IF Everything is Brahamam AND IF Brahamam is Nirguna THEN (it implies) Everything is Nirguna [However this implications seems to contradict the reality, so which is false here my implication or the reality] Also another doubt regarding your statement - "It is only by doing karma and subsequently by giving up the fruits of the karma done (as and when it is being done) can a jiva escape from the cycle of birth." But another Gita statement says "Karamani Vah Adhikersai...." that we can only rights over the Karma and not over its fruits,now my question is- if we don't have any rights over the fruits of the karma, can we give it up (like if i don't have a rights over a piece of land can i give it up to another person?) Again please excuse me if this question looks silly, i am very much at a novice level

Hari OM: Dwaita Gurus had given much more efficient examples and had been refuted by Others. Your example holds good only if God and His energy would "ALWAYS" remain two seperate identities like the "potter" and the "Clay" (mud is not the correct term) However if the Potter creates Clay out of himself and merges back into himself then the example fails.

Hari OM: Dear aqua3, thanks for the very elaborate and scholarly explanation. But my basic question ---- "Everything IS Brahamam"+"Brahamam IS Nirguna" ====> "Everything IS Nirguna" But in real life, we are seeing , some things, rather almost everything is not nirguna, so my question was how to reconcile this apparent contradiction. Please excuse me if my question looks silly or naive, but i am asking this very sincerely. Also since you are ready to accept Gita as Parama, Gita verse (chapter 8:3) states "KARMA is defined as the Visarga (discharge) of spirits at the begining of Creation" can you throw some light on this also?

Hari OM: Thank you for the very learned reply. i agree that i am not a scholar in Sanskrit , also i know very little about vedas, has studied some in Vedanata. Please let me know whether Gita is considered a Sruthi and can be taken as a Pramana? Also i think that Shankraachrayas and Ramanjuachrayas view is not exactly opposite, but they express the same truth in different ways. Please let me know what is your understanding of Shankrachray's Statement "Brahamo Satyam Jagat Nityam" , also can you tell why "Hari OM" is uttered in the beginning of most rituals.

Hari OM: Some postings in this Forum (reflective of "modern secular" views) state that Peace is the highest objective should be obtained at any cost- including sacrificing our honour, wealth, our own community people (Kashmiri Pandits) and what not, since they say that PEACE is the ultimate. What does our scriptures say on this? Scriptures defines "SRI" as a sixteen-characteristics quality, in that Peace comes only after Honour. If you can maintain Peace with Honour then that is the real Peace, however if you sacrifice your Honour to achieve Peace, then it is called Submission not Peace, they quote Krishna going to Durdhyodana with Peace Proposal, however they conveniently forget the Viswa Roopa of Krishna when Durdhyodana tries to Humiliate Him by arresting. He does not sacrifice His Honour to achieve Peace. These cowards just to enjoy materailistic and sensual pleasures are trying to confuse every body saying that Hinduism is a peace loving religion, we must give food, clothing and Shelter to Muslims (Why we should compensate for Allah's failure?)-- if we give them then they would produce more children and again fall back into poverty, enlight them and just tolerate whatever they do. Actually they are just pushing the problems to our grand-children, and it may be very difficult to tackle then. Our grand-childrens will either be harassed and humiliated by Muslims, or worse still convert to Muslims and sink deep in the spiritual evolution with no hope of raising for the whole of Kaliyuga. So ignore these pseduo-intelligents and remember "Scripture is the true guide to us always"

Hari OM: "The Vedantic notion that Brahman is both the primary and secondary cause of everything in creation suggests that even Evil or Inauspiciousness must have been contained in It from the Beginning. But this is not supported by any Pramaana sruti" Srimad Bhagvatam has a story, where when Narayana was sleeping two demons Madhu and Kesi sprung from His ears, this shows that evil was contained in Nirguna Brahamam (Sleeping indicates at Nirguna stage) Brahamam must be fully self-contained there could be nothing outside (including evil and Maya). This Brahamam is not a pure abstract pheonmeon, but a substance - an consucioness energy substance and is called Purusha. It follows the law of Karma, or it is the cause of law of Karma, so that all actions at physical, mental and emotional level are always balanced by an equal and opposite reaction so that It remains Nirguna always. Bhagavan is a very special manifestation of Brahamam in that , that manifestation always remain Nirguna and is never tainted by Gunas, and hence called Purushotamma. Individual Jivas, get containmainted by Guna (Guna is also a manifestation of Brahamam, though) and they act accordingly, their every action is compenstaned by a corresponding opposite Guna and hence the Karmic cycle continues. The only way to break this cycle is then to do actions without the effect of Guna, i.e., as a Karma-Yogi.

Hari OM: Dear guest you are stating first it is His Will, then in the next thread "we wanted it" --please decide any one. Second i am not asking "Where" is good and bad, i am asking "Why" is good and bad, so you are saying God created all Good things and kept with himselves in Vaikunta and sent all Bad things to the earth to be "Enjoyed" by His creation? Sorry, i am not convinced by this reply, i need a reply of "Why" good and bad things exists without saying "since God wishes So" [ i believe that God would not Wish any body should suffer from Bad things]

Hari OM: it is true that there are many differences in Hinduism itself, and the existence of difference is an universal fact, people who try to destroy the differences actually create more differences. As far as my knowledge, Shivites and Vishnavities don't try to behead each other or the rest of mankind. Islam like most of the other religions "Think" that: - It is superior and others are inferior - They are the "chosen" people of God. i don't find any issue here. The second concept is "Jihad" and there are three interpretations: -The spiritual Jihad -The defensive Jihad (To defend the Religion and the community) -The offensive Jihad (To use violence for the spread of Religion) The first one is noble, but has very few adhrents (~8% of muslims adher to it) The second one is not so noble, but 90% of muslims adher to it, this is ok and agreeable and is similar to found in most other religions (at least in older times) The third one is outright criminal, only 2% of muslims adher to that. The main problem now is there is a gray area between the Second and third one and lot of people are jumping into that and making it very dangerous. For example the attack on WTC, USA is considered as offensive Jihad by many people, but few try to classify it as defensive Jihad (since USA is helping Israel to occupy Palestine and hence affecting their Ummah-coumminty) The big problem here is any action can be both classified as Offensive or defensive Jihad, it would confuse both Muslims and non-Muslims alike and creates terror. This is the issue we are trying to address. Other than that, i have no problem with their other beliefs (Hajj, Ramzan, charity...) their dress codes, polygamy, seperate marriage and civil laws,etc., (even though they may create economic hardship to them and others) Now you justify your comparison of the negative aspects of our own tradition with the above issues.

Hari OM: "the bad things that happens in the world are expression of the will of god " So my question is why does will of God is being expressed as bad things in the world? why not only good things.

Hari OM: You are not able to differeniate between offense and defense. You tell that when we drop all our defenses, then the enemy would fell sorry for us and he would also drop all his weapons and there will be sea of Peace everywhere. But sorry my dear friend, you are not in touch with reality, the moment we drop our defenses we will be devaoured. Better build the defenses, become strong and then enemy will automatically stop the war and we have peace. Don't go for offence, against our Dharma, but don't drop the defense otherwise you will be destroyed. "If EVERYONE in the war were Gandhian, NO ONE WOULD FIGHT" This IF is a very very very very big IF, even IF 10% in the war were non-Gandhian, then the remaining 90% would perish. PS: contrary to your opinion even though Gandhi was instrumental in India obtaining freedom, he is not the only reason, it was also Bose, Bhagat Singh, second world war weakening british empire, etc., since congress goverments were in power, they conveniently covered all these facts. If none of the above facts would have happened, Gandhi would have fasted until death, but still British would not have left India, or a maximum of limited autonomy would have been achieved.

Hari OM: No need to be affected personally, affecting our community is enough reason, if you are not feeling sorry for Kashmiri Pandits, then you are heartless. Go and ask the people rioting in Pakistan against Iraqi occupation, "Are you personally affected by that occupation" Just a quote from a Priest in the time of Hitler: "First they came for Jews, then I didn't care since I was not a Jew" "Then they came for Blacks, still I didn't care since I was not a black too" "Then they came for me, but there was no body to care for me"

"If Gandhi had been alive at the time of the Mahabharat, I'm sure he would not have hopped onto a chariot to be an advisor to killing. He would have sought more ways at peace, and he would have been noble and honorable for doing so regardless of your opinion" Yes indeed, and mean while Drupahdi, Subhatra and all other women would have been raped. Pandvas will going to country after country begging for some help. Purisriva would be making comment "Let us kick the ass out of Kunti" and all Papers will be publishing it in head lines Musharaff, sorry Durdyohna would keep a test and say, this is a test for Yudhistra to prove whether he is a real lover of Dharma. And so and so forth. Of course there will be some articles now and then appreciating how patient Gandhi and his disciple Arjun are, and you and Ronak would study that in your Balcony sitting in a relaxed arm-chair and enjoying every bit of it. What a real loss Gandhi was not there at that time. "Just think, what would happen if everyone fighting in the war of the Mahabharat was a Gandhian like me and Ronak" Don't Just think (and get lost in your own ideal world), see (for that only God has given eyes) the reality and act accordingly.

Hari OM: So you can't stop yourself arguing with me? good if so then argue like a gentleman not with words like nonsense, etc., "those who wishes to fight when they bring forth new theories, interpretations and insights" Only Kshatiryas (i.e.,) the rulers are permitted to Fight per Dharma. If others fight then that itself is Adharma, you can't fight one Adharma by another Adharma. When the Subjects live in a kingdom ruled by Adharmic People, the only way they have is to Pray towards god for their deliverance, either by sending a powerful king or a powerful spiritual person. i don't mind if people want to directly engage in the war (physical or intellectual or emotional) themselves, but the first priority should be spiritual liberation (since time is ripe NOW)-- second priority can be establishment of Dharama or Social order, other wise you may end up wasting your time and energy..