bhaktashab

Please understand that these are my doubts about reality. I am not at all thinking offensively, it's just that this issue seems to be coming up a lot lately. One devotee friend of mine has decided to live in a homosexual relationship and he is trying to rationalise his position by saying that it is natural because gender seems to be a vague issue in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. He made the claim that we are all female anyway and that all the pictures you see show nitya siddhas who look female. It wasn't that he couldn't see what he was doing was wrong, it was more the extent to which it is wrong. I am unsure about this also. I would really like this cleared up for me so that if I ever get asked these questions myself I will be able to give the proper answer that will fully satisfy the querent. ------------------ shab.

Haribol, I have a question about gender in terms of one’s siddha deha (spiritual body) and how this relates to our material gender. Our philosophy states that the jiva souls are classed as sakti (energy) and are therefore female; yet we see that there are other males in the spiritual world apart from Krishna. Also, is one’s siddha deha eternally the same or can it change? For example Uddhava desired to worship Krishna in the mood of the gopis (or so I believe, please correct me if I am wrong), does this mean that Krishna would grant the desire of one of His eternal associates to experience another rasa, a different kind of relationship? Also we hear that our Vaisnava Acaryas were actually gopis and they knew it. How did this knowledge of their eternal identity influence their gender as males here. Where some of them effeminate? I have heard that some people thought Lord Chaitanya was effeminate. Another question, We see in so many pictures that Krishna looks feminine, it is even described that He has hips like a girl. My understanding is that if you saw Krishna then He would be unmistakably male (being the eternal Purusa) but that this is difficult to capture in paint. Does anyone have any detailed explanations of gender and how they relate to material identities? There are so many confused people who don’t know what gender they are; how has this happened? Girls that want to be boys, that are actually girls (being sakti). You see how confusing this is? ------------------ shab. [This message has been edited by bhaktashab (edited 01-24-2002).]

Time of Death = Period of time within which a death takes place. ------------------ shab.

Angela Dust? Is that his real name? ------------------ shab.

The silly ghost stories worked on me. There's no way I would even consider committing suicide now that I know I would have to suffer as a tormented ghost. ------------------ shab.

My understanding is that at the time of death one's life flashes before one's eyes. In other words our state of mind at the time of death (which is what determines our next birth) is itself determined by the way we have lived throughout our life. ------------------ shab.

lol Valaya That's the best reply yet! Although I don't think I'm all that skillful when it comes to smashen'em and bashen'em. I'll leave that to someone else. Maybe we should elect an official 'Mayavadi Smasher'. Someone who's job it is to police the Audarya Fellowship and smash Mayavadis. I'm pretty sure Jahnava Nitai Prabhu already would be doing this if the need arises, but perhaps someone else can take up the challenge? And then that person instead of having 'member' written under their name can have 'mayavadi smasher'. Just an idea ------------------ shab. [This message has been edited by bhaktashab (edited 01-17-2002).]

Yes thanks for pointing that out. I can see that we are all impersonal to one extent or another, otherwise we wouldn't be in this material world right? Well I can at least speak for myself. But what if there was a serious Mayavadi polluting the forum with subtle, clean but offensive remarks in reference to the Supreme Lord's names, forms, qualities and pastimes all being of the nature of illusion? ------------------ shab.

While it would be nice to think that an impersonalist could recieve mercy from the devotees here and realise Bhagavan, shouldn't the obstinate Mayavadis be banned after a while of not listening to reason? I am unsure about this and I just wanted to see how everyone else feels about the issue. ------------------ shab.

Interesting Prabhu. Please keep us updated on the impact this find has on the scientific community. I expect some text books will need rewriting. Or will we see the Indologists and Anthropoligists hide and ignore it. ------------------ shab.

Please listen to these lectures by Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu entitled 'Varnasrama Seminar' on this page: http://www.harekrishna.asn.au/speakers/ravindra_svarupa_prabhu/ravindra_svarupa_prabhu.htm from this site: http://www.harekrishna.asn.au/ ------------------ shab.

Alfa1, you present here a philosophy that denies love as an eternal fact. We are devotees of Krishna and as such we understand to one extent or another what it means to have a loving relationship with Him. This loving relationship is not imagined, it is real. If you conceive the absolute truth to be devoid of personal relationships, devoid of separate individuals who act as the abode and objects of love, then your conception is incomplete. The mere fact that I can describe eternal loving personal relationships between devotees and a transcendent God should indicate to you that you are missing something in your conception of the absolute truth. Please remember that the absolute truth is the complete whole - nothing is separate from the absolute. So how is it that I can describe something that does not fit into your conception? The obvious answer is that your conception is incomplete. We are only one with God in an impersonal sense and one who realises this oneness with God becomes joyful. But this is only preliminary realisation of the absolute. The pleasure derived from impersonal liberation is likened to the dirty water in the hoof print of a calf compared to the unlimited ocean of Krishna Prema, pure love of God. ------------------ shab.

Check out this website by Prithu dasa Adhikari http://www.iskcon.net/oregon/jesus/index.html ------------------ shab.

Another Message From Krishna: Are you ready for the love I am willing to give? ------------------ shab.

O Supreme Goddess Radha Abode of infinite love You hold Krsna eternally So tight in Your hearts embrace You recall Your heartfelt visions Dancing in Your restless eyes Krsna everlastingly mirrored In the windows of Your soul When You hear His name ‘Krsna’ Those very eyes well with tears The waters of Your pure love In streams caress Your golden cheeks Your sakhis surround Your effulgent form Yearning monuments of devotional empathy Shimmering blissfully as You unite with Govinda Crying in pain when You are separate from Him O Supreme Goddess Radha Who am I to utter Your name? Who am I to speak of Your divinity? And who am I anyway? In the heart of my mind I fall at Your feet Eager to melt into the dust near Your toes So very sad am I in this material world For I have no love, I have no devotion All I have is the torment of my sin Please have mercy on my soul O Supreme Goddess Radha! Please have mercy on my soul... ------------------ shab.

This verse and purport from Sri Brahma Samhita by His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabupada discusses this. TEXT 38 premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami TRANSLATION I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Syamasundara, Krsna Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love. PURPORT The Syamasundara form of Krsna is His inconceivable simultaneous personal and impersonal self-contradictory form. True devotees see the form in their purified hearts under the influence of devotional trance. The form Syama is not the blue color visible in the mundane world but is the transcendental variegated color affording eternal bliss, and is not visible to the mortal eye. On a consideration of the trance of Vyasadeva as in the sloka, bhakti-yogena manasi etc., it will be clear that the form of Sri Krsna is the full Personality of Godhead and can only be visible in the heart of a true devotee, which is the only true seat in the state of trance under the influence of devotion. When Krsna manifested Himself in Vraja, both the devotees and non- devotees saw Him with this very eye; but only the devotees cherished Him, eternally present in Vraja, as the priceless jewel of their heart. Nowadays also the devotees see Him in Vraja in their hearts, saturated with devotion although they do not see Him with their eyes. The eye of devotion is nothing but the eye of the pure unalloyed spiritual self of the Jiva. The form of Krsna is visible to that eye in proportion to its purification by the practice of devotion. When the devotion of the neophyte reaches the stage of bhava-bhakti the pure eye of that devotee is tinged with the salve of love by the grace of Krsna, which enables him to see Krsna face to face. The phrase "in their hearts" means Krsna is visible in proportion as their hearts are purified by the practice of devotion. The sum and substance of this sloka is that the form of Krsna, who is Syamasundara, Natavara (Best Dancer), Muralidhara (Holder of the Flutes) and Tribhanga (Triple-bending), is not a mental concoction but is transcendental, and is visible with the eye of the soul of the devotee under trance. ------------------ shab.

This verse and purport from Sri Brahma Samhita by His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabupada discusses this. TEXT 38 premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami TRANSLATION I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Syamasundara, Krsna Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love. PURPORT The Syamasundara form of Krsna is His inconceivable simultaneous personal and impersonal self-contradictory form. True devotees see the form in their purified hearts under the influence of devotional trance. The form Syama is not the blue color visible in the mundane world but is the transcendental variegated color affording eternal bliss, and is not visible to the mortal eye. On a consideration of the trance of Vyasadeva as in the sloka, bhakti-yogena manasi etc., it will be clear that the form of Sri Krsna is the full Personality of Godhead and can only be visible in the heart of a true devotee, which is the only true seat in the state of trance under the influence of devotion. When Krsna manifested Himself in Vraja, both the devotees and non- devotees saw Him with this very eye; but only the devotees cherished Him, eternally present in Vraja, as the priceless jewel of their heart. Nowadays also the devotees see Him in Vraja in their hearts, saturated with devotion although they do not see Him with their eyes. The eye of devotion is nothing but the eye of the pure unalloyed spiritual self of the Jiva. The form of Krsna is visible to that eye in proportion to its purification by the practice of devotion. When the devotion of the neophyte reaches the stage of bhava-bhakti the pure eye of that devotee is tinged with the salve of love by the grace of Krsna, which enables him to see Krsna face to face. The phrase "in their hearts" means Krsna is visible in proportion as their hearts are purified by the practice of devotion. The sum and substance of this sloka is that the form of Krsna, who is Syamasundara, Natavara (Best Dancer), Muralidhara (Holder of the Flutes) and Tribhanga (Triple-bending), is not a mental concoction but is transcendental, and is visible with the eye of the soul of the devotee under trance. ------------------ shab.

The highest virtue is to love God completely and utterly devoid of all selfish motivation. When we talk about good and bad the ultimate good one can do is to be totally surrendered to the will of the Lord, to be a perfect source of pleasure for God. Is there an example in history of such a person who practices this pure devotion to the Supreme ever eating meat? ------------------ shab.

Sounded pretty good to me. ------------------ shab.

I can sympathise with you atma. Although I have no children of my own [yet], I am appalled by the atrocious behaviour of the children in our community. It makes me sick to see devotees that don't care enough about their children to sufficiently discipline them. Another symptom of the 'hippy mentality' which still permeates the consciousness of Iskcon. I think there is a great need to educate the incompetent parents in our institution perhaps by those parents who are qualified. It may even be neccesary to look outside of Iskcon for help (although we shouldn't have to). Here are three quotes from Niti-sastra by Sri Chanakya Pandit: 10. Wise men should always bring up their sons in various moral ways, for children who have knowledge of niti-sastra and are well-behaved become a glory to their family. 11. Those parents who do not educate their sons are their enemies; for as is a crane among swans, so are ignorant sons in a public assembly. 12. Many a bad habit is developed through overindulgence, and many a good one by chastisement, therefore beat your son as well as your pupil; never indulge them. Why should we be sentimental about raising children? There are already enough new-agers around promoting varna-sankara. We can't pretend that just because we are devotees that means our children will automatically grow up to be sadhus. We seriously need to train our children in all aspects of morality, ethics, social etiquette and manners. This is the education that will really help them later in life. ------------------ shab.

This word Purana means history. Those who follow Vedic culture accept them as history. You may not, but who are you to deny the authority of the Puranas? The purpose and scope of the Puranas is vast, but the knowledge is revealed through historical incidents. ------------------ shab.

Indian history as given in the Puranas goes back millions of years. ------------------ shab.

I quote Sataputa Prabhu when I explain the gross matter as a distortion of the ether. He says that our dimension is a distortion of the ether just like waves are a distortion on the surface of the ocean. Similarly there are many other dimensions which also co-exist along side this one. Even the material scientists who are splitting atoms down to the tiniest subatomic particles are coming to the conclusion that matter is simply a vibration. The omkara is the resting place of the material universe. This divine sound, which is a representation of the Supreme Lord, has an absolute relationship to the ether and in this way countless material manifestations come into being. “The Vedic sound vibration omkara, the principle word in the Vedic literature, is the basis of all Vedic vibrations. Therefore one should accept omkara as the sound representation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the reservoir of the cosmic manifestation.” (Cc.Adi-lila, 7.128) Suryaz, you shouldn't have insulted me just because I disagreed with you. The point you are trying to make about unconscious hydrogen atoms having some kind of spiritual artistic ability makes absolutely no sense to me. No doubt the material universe is created from such matter, but the matter is not the creator and therefore has no artistic relevance. It's like you are trying to say paint creates paintings. This is simply illogical - the painter creates paintings with paint. ------------------ shab.

“These are the general principles to be followed by all human beings: truthfulness, mercy, austerity (observing fasts on certain days of the month), bathing twice a day, tolerance, discrimination between right and wrong, control of the mind, control of the senses, nonviolence, celibacy, charity, reading of scripture, simplicity, satisfaction, rendering service to saintly persons, gradually taking leave of unnecessary engagements, observing the futility of the unnecessary activities of human society, remaining silent and grave and avoiding unnecessary talk, considering whether one is the body or the soul, distributing food equally to all living entities (both men and animals), seeing every soul (especially in the human form) as a part of the Supreme Lord, hearing about the activities and instructions given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead (who is the shelter of the saintly persons), chanting about these activities and instructions, always remembering these activities and instructions, trying to render service, performing worship, offering obeisances, becoming a servant, becoming a friend, and surrendering one's whole self. O King Yudhisthira, these thirty qualifications must be acquired in the human form of life. Simply by acquiring these qualifications, one can satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” (SB 11.8.12) ------------------ shab.

Atomic particles of matter are simply a distortion in the ether. They have no independent existence from God. Creativity has an energetic source and atoms being energy are not the causes of creation. The living entities are empowered to create by the Supreme Lord. Unconscious matter is not a source of creation it is simply the clay with which God molds the universe from. ------------------ shab.