stonehearted

As I mention in my article, I don't see anything to be gained by "debating" such a topic. That's certainly not why I wrote this. I think I should also point out that there's nothing there hinting at anything like the siddha-pranali process. Srila Prabhupada made some hints and some explicit statements. But he never made this an issue. I think it helps explain a number of things, and it may open our sampradaya to perspectives that have been occulted by certain elements of our family. With regard to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's comments about Srila Prabhupada's "present position," my understanding is that he was talking about Prabhupada's position at that time, after his disappearance. Yogi may have another understanding, and I respect that. I don't see what there is to gain by arguing it. And I can't say I agree with Beggar's assessment that anyone is running so hard with skhya rasa. It's just that when all this evidence is put together in one place, it seems to indicate a particular flavor. I knew when I wrote this that some devotees would get all heated up about this. Nevertheless, I took the opportunity to glorify Srila Prabhupada, even though this risk is there. My understanding of Srila Sridhara Maharaja's statements is discussed in the booklet. I wasn't there; in fact, I felt constrained from approaching him when I had the chance by my service as a gurukula headmaster in Hawaii. That's a big regret. However, based on my conversations with those who did spend time with him, it appears to me that he felt that Srila Prabhupada expressed elements of his own inner life in a number of ways, but he left an opening, in his harmonizing way, when confronted with objections. But he seemed to feel strongly that a taste for sakhya-bhava is strongly indicated by a number of things, including his reading of Prabhupada's "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna." If you all want to argue about it, "debate" it, then who's going to stop you? This is, after all, Audarya Fellowship, where we tend to go after each other hammer and tongs. This seems to be the national sport here. If anyone's interested in open-minded discussion, that's another thing. And look: I knew that some dear, long-time friends would end up peeved with me for one reason or another. That's nothing new, either. I've been around devotee circles for a long time, and I've been accused of not being one of you, not being ISKCON, being anti-guru, anti-ISKCON, anti-GBC, whatever. I'm not worried about that at all.

Thanks for that, Sukhada. And if you're the same Sukhada who left the lovely excerpt from the Masters poem on the site, thank you thousands of times.

I wouldn't be shocked, but we'll see. Well, there's no attempt solely to create controversy--just to tie together the evidence I see. Makes sense to me. Could be. Especially considering you were what they call "in the fire" then. I wouldn't write it off. This is heart business, after all. It's not exactly a topic for tourists, though, is it?

Thanks gHari. That's really kind of you.

Interesting comment. For many of us, he has never left the core of our hearts. I don't know that he was ever down in any way. Anyway, the booklet has nothing to do with GBC politics, or any of that. Completely different topic.

Over the last few months I've been working on an essay bringing together the external evidence we have about Srila Prabhupada's internal life. It turned into a rather long piece, and it was great fun to write. This essay gives us access to the diverse indications given by Srila Prabhupada by which we may understand his love for Krishna. Intimate stories from disciples The realizations of sadhus Signs from Srila Prabhupada's life Srila Prabhupada's own statements. I'm offering this essay free online in two versions, one you can read online and one you can download as a pdf. If you find it interesting, feel free to share it with anyone you think might also find it interesting. You may find this essay at http://cowdust.us/, where you'll be given the choice to either read it online or download it. Have fun, and feel free to leave thoughtful comments.I hope you’ll find it enlivening and thought provoking. And fun!

Seven... You have got that list? You have now... Ten kinds offenses? In this, is it written there that you cannot commit offense on the strength of Hare Krsna mantra? Yes, that's... So tad-vag-visargo janatagha-viplavah. Viplavati. It vanquishes, it nullifies, it neutralizes. That's a fact. Nasayati. Yasmin vag-visarge, vag-visarge abaddha, abaddhavaty api apasabdadi-yukto 'pi prati slokam anantasya yasasah ankitani namani bhavanti.(?) So such kind of Hare Krsna mantra, or sometime... Just like you are chanting, you are, the mantras, because it is not your language. So sometime it appears broken. Just like guru. Sometimes you say "goru.Goru" means cow, and "guru" means spiritual master. So the difference of meaning is vast. (chuckling) The spiritual master is not a cow. Or a bull. (laughs) But sometimes they... Because it is not your language... But that doesn't matter. Because bhavagrahi janardana. Krsna is within you. He knows what you want to chant. Therefore He takes the meaning of guru and not goru, even it is spoken as goru. That doesn't matter. Bhavagrahi janardana. He, Krsna, knows that what you are actually... Just like I know that although you are speaking guru as goru, I, I, I, don't take offense because I know that your desire is something else. I do not protest. (laughter) That "You are addressing me goru. I am not goru." (laughter) So that is not a fault. Lecture, Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.11 -- New Vrindaban, June 10, 1969

Indeed! I can tell you definitively that Siddha was no friend to Gurukripa and his techniques. I spent a lot of time with him during those years, and we sometimes discussed some of these things. This "hearsay" from Suresh is one of the most bizarre things I've heard. Perhaps Suresh had missed some of his meds the day he heard someone say something like that. (Yeah, that sounds mean, doesn't it?)

You may be right. The thing is, he has some appreciation for Srila Prabhupada's mercy, and that's pretty cool. He probably just needs good association. We all seem happier when we can associate with devotees we trust. Anyway, I doubt I'll play in this thread any more. Too boring. It's not about me.

I guess one question someone who cares might ask him is , how many folks are at least as sincere as he is. (I have a long list.)

I've said that many times over the last 32 years. The antecedent, the opening phrase of the post to which you're responding, was "most of those I know." I'm not a big ISKCON guy, so I haven't been around as much as some folks. I'm a small man who has spent most of the last 20-odd years making a living teaching at public universities and colleges, not a world traveler. When I eat prasadam at a temple, I pay, and I only speak when I'm asked. That's not as often as it used to be. I never seek to give class. But then I spent many years living on the Big Island, where there's no ISKCON temple, and I've developed a habit of speaking according to guru, sadhu, and sastra (I actually did so even before that). How about you? Too good to take sadhu sanga? Been doing that for some time, dear friend. And some people have figured out how how to speak honestly in way that doesn't force them to hide in spider holes. Just because some people don't respond to the situation exactly as you'd like doesn't make them all evil, or even wrong. Oh, you've read our books, have you? Don't stop. Perhaps my experience over the last 40 years is rather different from yours. I began the process of surrender in 1969 and have done considerable service over the years. When I found the association of the corporate types, I made space between them and myself. Did it in '73, again in '75 (when my wife and I moved from Honolulu to the Big Island), and again in January of '86, when I gave up my service and left ISKCON. I have a track record. Ask anyone who knows me. If you want to argue and posture, you might find it more satisfying to try to engage someone else, like Kulapavana. I'm bored, and I don't see anything to argue with here. This thread was about Krishna-kirti, and after you trashed his motives, as you read them, he seems pretty much to have been forgotten. This thread seems to have become about you and Kula, so I'll leave you to your entertainment. Got other stuff to do.

I think their big problem is confusion about the issue of control. The GBC isn't meant to control other devotees, much less those who have some disciples. It's supposed to guide others to help maintain some standards of behavior among the members so they can make spiritual progress. And gurus are supposed to guide, not control (in any heavy-handed sense, at least) their disciples. I don't see anything about controlling others either in Srila Prabhupada's seven purposes for forming ISKCON or in his instructions to the GBC. So it's a mess.

Most devotees I know have for a very long time recognized that what Srila Prabhupada did in the spring of '77 and in that much-touted July 9 letter was to formalize the system he had been using, and by implication to give those he named the opportunity to lead the rest of us in becoming the gurus he indicated consistently he expected us to become. Most of us have long known he did not appoint any successor gurus. Despite all that has occurred since (and in some cases because of all that has occurred since), many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples, some inside ISKCON and some outside, seem to me to be qualified to guide others in their spiritual lives. The main thing is not to argue over one point or another, but to develop the sense of saranagati, in all six aspects, that favors the cultivation of faith in the order of Mahaprabhu and the spiritual master. That means we need to find the best association we can and, in that good company, dedicate ourselves to sharing our faith with whomever we encounter. We must each serve to the best of our capacity according to our circumstances.

Oh, okay. I only saw his rejection of Hridayananda, but nothing about a new focus. You seem to assume that's implied. Maybe it is.

Trades up to what? I'm a little puzzled by the thread's title. Krishna-kirti is not lost to Krishna consciousness. He has much association with like-minded devotees. He and I have corresponded quite a bit over the last six or seven years. As has been noted here, there has been tension between him and Hridayananda for years. Hirdayananda seems to trend rather liberal in the area of social policy (I guess this is one way you could characterize it), and KK trends very conservative. Anyone who has ever read KK's blog can see that he's much closer in many ways to Danavir Maharaja and Trivikrama Maharaja than to Hridayananda Maharaja. I think, though, that he has advocated a "liberal"/"conservative" (ahem., I mean "traditional") schism in ISKCON and has recently advocated leaving ISKCON (if I remember correctly, though I may be wrong about that one).

Axis: Bold as Love was created in 1967 and released in '68. And yes, sparky's pic is a little creepy.

Yeah, he was someone whose company I'd eschew, except when there was kirtan. When he'd visit Honolulu, I could usually be counted on for a donation (at the end of the visit, to help pay for his ticket off the island). We had a couple of long, heartfelt talks ten years ago, though, and decided we could get along pretty well. Nah, back in Florida with the wife, for now--just down the road from Senor Yogi. But I hope to head back down there as soon as I can.

Yeah, well, Sonic, we haven't all been able to stay young and trim as you. I'll tell you one thing, though (and I told this to him when I saw him in Honolulu ten years ago), the dude can still cook a kirtan. And maybe even better than before, in some ways.

I actually had that impression when I first met Srila Prabhupada, when he came to Honolulu in August of 1970. I had absolutely no doubt that the rest of my life belonged to him from the moment our eyes met. But I had an uneasy feeling about those traveling with him: Kirtanananda, Madhudvisa, Devananda, Karttikeya (all sannyasis), and Tamal. I had a bad feeling that they had some desire to somehow manipulate, control Srila Prabhupada.

Yeah, I've gotten a whiff of that New World Odor. It's nasty.

Andy, my friend, I'm way ahead of you. I left ISKCON because of their malfeasance in the mid '80s. (I left even before that, moving from Honolulu to the Big Island in 1975, after the fuss over the original Govinda's restaurant--no connection with the "Blessing Ceremony.") I tolerated things for a few years because I felt my gurukula project in Hawaii was important enough. Eventually, though, I gave up, shortly after the 1985 meeting in New Vrindavan.

Whoa! Yes, sir. Is there an implication in there that I'm some sort of cheerleader for these folks? That's a joke. Ask anyone who actually knows me at all. Now I need to check in to receive my orders.

No biggie. We've seen plenty of mistakes on this thread, including, perhaps by his own admission, HDG's email.

There are a few things that aren't as plain as some would make out. First, what does it mean that someone is the president of an ISKCON temple that doesn't exist? I'm not aware there is an ISKCON temple in SB. Even krishna.com doesn't seem to have anything listed there, much less an ISKCON temple. Another is just what Mr. Harris means by "officiated." Perhaps you do know just what he means. I don't. My best guess is that Harris and Einhorn invited him to be the guy who runs the show. He may have been as much an MC as anything else. There's no mention of a fire sacrifice, etc.

If you say so. I read it carefully enough to know it was a blessing ceremony attended by friends and family, which included devotees. It appears these two guys (or, perhaps, gays) are members of an ISKCON community on some level. So who do you think they'd invite. It ain't a marriage; as everyone in our nation knows, that's against the law in California. Please point out what I'm dancing around. Did I claim anyone did? But there's a lot of posturing here about gay marriage, etc. Okay. That means we must assume the Hrid's also a bald-faced liar, since he says that's not what this was about. If that's your claim, you'd do well to come up with some evidence. Anyway, I just shared something he wrote somewhere else, and you-all take shots at the messenger. Well, here I am.