Sonic Yogi

There is no need to transform the jiva. The jiva is always internal energy but we are now in forgetfullness of this fact.

Yes and no.

Bhaktivinode makes it clear that the jiva is produced from the jiva-shakti and NOT the cit-shakti.

But, the jiva can be transformed into internal potency with the addition of cit-shakti and hladini-shakti as explained by both Prabhupada and Bhaktivinode.

(quote are already provided in previous posts)

Internal energy is sat-chit-ananda.

The marginal jiva is just sat.(existence)

When the chit and the ananda (hladini-shakti) are added to the jiva then the jiva can be considered as internal potency.

The jiva is fully compatible with chit-shakti and hladini-shakti, but in his marginal condition he is bereft of these potencies.

Or we could say undiscovered by the jiva.

The spiritual master and Krishna bestows these potencies upon the jiva.

Here we have a nice reference to the shakti-parinamavada of the Gaudiyas.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.34

 

yady eṣoparatā devī

 

māyā vaiśāradī matiḥ

 

sampanna eveti vidur

 

mahimni sve mahīyate

 

SYNONYMS

 

yadi — if, however; eṣā — they; uparatā — subsided; devī māyā — illusory energy; vaiśāradī — full of knowledge; matiḥ — enlightenment; sampannaḥ — enriched with; eva — certainly; iti — thus; viduḥ — being cognizant of; mahimni — in the glories; sve — of the self; mahīyate — being situated in.

 

TRANSLATION

 

If the illusory energy subsides and the living entity becomes fully enriched with knowledge by the grace of the Lord, then he becomes at once enlightened with self-realization and thus becomes situated in his own glory.

 

PURPORT

 

Because the Lord is the absolute Transcendence, all of His forms, names, pastimes, attributes, associates and energies are identical with Him. His transcendental energy acts according to His omnipotency. The same energy acts as His external, internal and marginal energies, and by His omnipotency He can perform anything and everything through the agency of any of the above energies. He can turn the external energy into internal by His will. Therefore by His grace the external energy, which is employed in illusioning those living beings who want to have it, subsides by the will of the Lord in terms of repentance and penance for the conditioned soul. And the very same energy then acts to help the purified living being make progress on the path of self-realization. The example of electrical energy is very appropriate in this connection. The expert electrician can utilize the electrical energy for both heating and cooling by adjustment only. Similarly, the external energy, which now bewilders the living being into continuation of birth and death, is turned into internal potency by the will of the Lord to lead the living being to eternal life. When a living being is thus graced by the Lord, he is placed in his proper constitutional position to enjoy eternal spiritual life.

So, why do they say that the jiva cannot be transformed into internal energy (svarupa-shakti)?

If Krishna can take the inferior energy of matter and turn it into internal energy, then why can't he take marginal energy and transform it into internal energy?

He is a very good speaker. I got interuppted half way through. But acarya?

In a small pond it is easier to be the big fish.

What might be a big fish in the small pond might just be a minnow in the ocean.

what do you mean with Krsna?

 

Krsna is the Original Source of All, but we don't come from Him directly from His original form in Goloka but from an expansion of Him (Lord Shiva in the marginal area?) Lord Shiva is an expansion of Lord Krsna but as prabhupada says is just a portion and not vishnu tattva, it is in the middle between them. So I would like to know what do you mean with we born of Krsna.

 

Born from Krsna directly or his Shiva's expansion?

 

Why Prabhupada never told us that we come from Lord Shiva and say that He is just a demigod?

Krishna includes Lord Shiva.

Shiva is not a second Godhead.

He is an expansion of Govinda.

Shiva actually has a spiritual planet in the spiritual world - Maheshdham.

It is the first strata of Vaikuntha above the material world on the other side of the Viraja.

So, Siva is basically Krishna.

When Vishnu (Krishna) comes in contact with the material energy he transforms into Shiva.

So, originally the jivas come not actually from Krishna but from his energy.

Not even Krishna directly, but his energy.

Shiva becomes the medium for that energy to become injected into prakriti.

The Gaudiyas somewhat mask the glories of Siva.

They are not out to make Shiva bhaktas.

But, Shiva is greater than Brahma.

Shiva is an eternal Godhead like Vishnu.

Shiva is a form of Maha-Sankarshan in Vaikuntha.

Shiva is also God.

something interesting is that tatastha means marginal, but if you take just tata this means father and we come from the father from the marginal area (Lord Shiva), I don't know sanskrit but this is curious

SB 3.31.19 purport:

The living entity is born of the Supreme Godhead as part and parcel. It is confirmed in the Brahma-saḿhitā, anādir ādir govindaḥ: [bs. 5.1] Govinda, the Supreme person, has no cause. He is unborn. But the living entity is born of Him. As confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā, mamaivāḿśaḥ: both the living entity and the Supreme Lord are unborn, but it has to be understood that the supreme cause of the part and parcel is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Brahma-saḿhitā therefore says that everything has come from the Supreme Personality of Godhead (sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam [bs. 5.1]). The Vedānta-sūtra confirms this also. Janmādy asya yataḥ: [sB 1.1.1] the Absolute Truth is the original source of everyone's birth. Kṛṣṇa also says in Bhagavad-gītā, ahaḿ sarvasya prabhavaḥ: "I am the source of birth of everything, including Brahmā and Lord Śiva and the living entities." This is self-realization. One should know that he is under the control of the Supreme Lord and not think that he is fully independent. Otherwise, why should he be put into conditional life?

All living entities are BORN of Krishna.

It says that in that shastra quite definitively.

So Raghu, stop dogging me about anadi karma.

The Gaudiya acharyas don't teach it as absolute beginningless but as incomprehensible beginninglessness.

Maybe your guru teaches Vedanta sutra differently.

But, that is not the Gaudiya conception as best I can see.

Sonic Yogi :Well, Krishna has free will to the unlimited degree.

Does that mean he can fall down from being the Supreme Being?

 

andy: Irrelevant.

 

SY: Why does free will necessitate the ability to fall down?

 

andy: In the case of a Jiva, even one who is perfectly fixed up in Krsnaloka, because Prabhupada says so.

 

''Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down." Letter to: Jagadisa

—

Los Angeles

25 April, 1970

70-04-25

SY: Does not Radharani have free will?

 

Or is she a slave?

 

Can Radha fall down?

 

andy: No, reread this portion of Jaiva Dharma. She is the personification of the complete swarupa-sakti or Cit Sakti, all her priciple sakhis are expansions of herself or pure Cit-potency, the characteristics of their independence do not include the capacity to be covered over by Maha Maya's illusion, as do the Jivas.

 

 

SY: Free will does not necessitate the imperfection of fallibility.

In fact, free will and infallibility are both qualities of the nitya-siddhas.

 

andy: You must remember, we are speaking of the Jiva's who are IMBUED with Hladini Sakti, but remain distinct in category from the nitya siddha sakhis, and are considered sadhana siddha Jivas, according to Srila Bhaktivindode.

 

 

SY:Such is the version of Lord Krishna.

 

Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible.

 

Why do so many devotees insist that the souls are fallible because they have free will?

 

andy: This is a case of acintya bedhabedha. They have their independence as do all jivas, but due to their perfection of attaining loving service to Krsna, they NEVER use that independence to try to get inferior temporary pleasure from the material deminar ever again. YOU are insisting they are fallible. They are infallible at this point, but still considered Jiva tattva, there is no transformation to become Swarupa Sakti Tattva. It is not necessary.

 

SY: We have free will here but we don't have the free will to create our own planets or fly through outer space.

Free will always has it's parameters.

In Goloka, the parameter of free will does not include the capacity to be overcome by ignorance and fall down from love of Krishna.

 

Free will in Goloka is not the same kind of false free will that living entities in illusion think they have.

 

Andy: It is a paradox. According to the English language, capacity does mean that it can happen. So if the capacity is there, but the choice is never made to fulfill that potential, then there is no spoon is there? He He.

Well, Andy, I don't accept everything that Srila Prabhupada says as absolute.

When he says things that aren't unanimously supported by the shastric version, I just see it as methaphor or what is called parokshavada - the telling of tales to teach a lesson.

For example, show me anywhere in shastra the motto "back home - back to Godhead" appears.

In shastra where it says the jiva "attains" the spiritual world,Srila Prabhupada says they "go home, back to Godhead".

Well, he certainly takes his fair share of poetic license in his books.

So, if I find Prabhupada saying or writing something that I can't exactly match with shastric statements, I just pass it off as fable and story that Srila Prabhupada felt that the foolish and ignorant people he was preaching to needed to hear.

So, "Prabhupada said" is not an absolutism.

As far as that goes neither is "Bhaktivinode said".

They preached in terms of what they thought their audience was best suited for understanding even if they sometimes took poetic license in the siddhanta.

Ultimately, I just have to piece together the truth as best I can understand it and sort out the myths from the truth.

There are myths out there.

Some came from Srila Prabhupada and some from others.

I don't feel I need myths.

I can take the cold, hard truth of the shastra and I don't like to be baby fed myths like Aesops fables.

So, again "Prabhupada said" is not absolute to me.

It has to match the shastric version.

If it doesn't, I just think that Srila Prabhupada was watering things down for the dull-headed followers who were prone to ask him so many dumb questions earning them the myths Prabhupada felt he needed to tell to nuture them along.

There is no "Back to Godhead" theme in the shastra that I have ever seen.

It is back to Godhead for Srila Prabhupada because I believe he came from up there to do his service.

It is "back to Godhead" for Srila Prabhupada.

For us it is the first entry.

Raghu, here again our acharyas refer to the point of the falldown and where the falldown happened from.

A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world-they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya'with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7, page 95-96)

And where did you get this idea from? Which guru taught you that? Where in the sutras do you see evidence to support that view? In which commentary do you see evidence to support that view? Please quote explicitly the evidence to back your views.

 

I find it ironic that you demand to know the basis of my views when I quote directly from Vyasa, yet you have no problem superimposing your own bogus interpretations on the very same.

 

You haven't even read the sutras (which I have now quoted multiple times) or understood the sense of them. If you had, you would realize that "anAdi karma" does NOT refer to "prescribed duties of the Varnashrama system." Such an interpretation *makes* *no* *sense* in that context.

 

Once again, you are disagreeing with Vyasa, disagreeing with Baladeva Vidyabhushana, and disagreeing with all other Vedanta commentators in the various Vaishnava traditions. What makes you think you know more than them?

 

 

 

"Many references?" I'm calling your bluff. Quote one such reference from "Vedic shastra" above and beyond the Jaya/Vijaya fall, which we all know is an exceptional case that had the Lord's sanction.

It appears that you aren't a Gaudiya Vaishnava.

My orientation is with Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

In the Gaudiya sampradaya the Srimad Bhagavatam is the principle work of study as it has been said to be the commentary on Vedanta by Vyasa.

Vyasadeva himself says that Srimad Bhagavatam is his commentary on Vedanta-sutras.

So, we don't study the Vedanta-sutras. We study the Srimad Bhagavatam per the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

In the line of the Gaudiya acharyas we get our own explanations of the Vedanta-sutras.

In fact the Srimad Bhagavatam starts out janmadyasya-yatah.

Our Gaudiya acharyas explain it thusly.

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless (anadi). (Jaiva Dharma, page 234)

S.B. 3.31.44 purport

It is clear that a particular body is given to the living entity for a particular type of activity. This process is going on perpetually, from a time which is impossible to trace out. Vaiṣṇava poets say, therefore, anādi karama-phale, which means that these actions and reactions of one's activity cannot be traced, for they may even continue from the last millennium of Brahmā's birth to the next millennium. We have seen the example in the life of Nārada Muni. In one millennium he was the son of a maidservant, and in the next millennium he became a great sage.

So, this is the way the Gaudiya acharyas explain it.

You can say that they contradict Vyasa, but I will just say that you don't properly understand the Vedanta-sutra the way the Gaudiya acharyas do.

So, blame me if you like, but the Gaudiya acharyas do not use "anadi karma" in the absolute sense, but in the terms mentioned in the above quotes.

Could it be that material consciousness is a kind of 'frontline' in uncharted spiritual territory? The whole universe is evolving. Therefore, God (the original maintainer of the universe) may be evolving or 'growing'. We may be God’s ‘agents’ (dualism?) or His ‘sensory nerve endings’ (monism?). And once we figure it all out, we are assimilated and our consciousness enters a more advanced state, like a discrete phase-transition from solid into fluid. Still the same basic stuff, but qualitatively different..

Grasshopper.......let me explain......

S.B. 3.31.20 purport....

The evolutionary process of different types of bodies is something like that of a fructifying flower. Just as there are different stages in the growth of a flower — the bud stage, the blooming stage and the full-fledged stage of aroma and beauty - there are 8,400,000 species of bodies in gradual evolution, and there is systematic progress from the lower species of life to the higher. The human form of life is supposed to be the highest, for it offers consciousness for getting out of the clutches of birth and death. The fortunate child in the womb of his mother realizes his superior position and is thereby distinguished from other bodies. Animals in bodies lower than that of the human being are conscious only as far as their bodily distress and happiness are concerned; they cannot think of more than their bodily necessities of life — eating, sleeping, mating and defending. But in the human form of life, by the grace of God, the consciousness is so developed that a man can evaluate his exceptional position and thus realize the self and the Supreme Lord.

The world is like God's garden.

We start out as seeds.

Then we grow into flowers and eventually give off a sweet fragrance.

When the seed becomes a flower, it is no longer a seed.

This is shakti-parinamavada of Sri Caitanya.

(transformation of energy)

Some food for thought.

Thanks to www.gosai.com for the material.

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (C.C. Madhya-lila 5.22)

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman. (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

The symptoms of the rainy season may be compared to the symptoms of the living entities who are covered by the three modes of material nature. The unlimited sky is like the Supreme Brahman, and the tiny living entities are like the covered sky, or Brahman covered by the three modes of material nature. Originally, everyone is part and parcel of Brahman. The Supreme Brahman, or the unlimited sky, can never be covered by a cloud, but a portion of it can be covered. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But they are only an insignificant portion of the Supreme Lord. This portion is covered by the modes of material nature, and therefore the living entities are residing within this material world. The brahmajyoti-spiritual effulgence-is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free. [Krsna Book, Ch. 20, Description of Autumn]

Sridhara Maharaja: A jiva soul has adaptability of both sides; marginal means "endowed with adaptability towards both the spiritual and material worlds without participation or any experience of either."

The marginal soul (tatastha) has only seed adaptability towards both. He is situated in the margin between the spiritual and material worlds, and the margin strictly means that one is in a position to analyze adaptability. He can go towards the spiritual world and he can come towards the material world. The possibility of either is there in potentiality, but he is left to exercise his freedom. Because the soul is a conscious unit, he has free will. Freedom is inseparable from consciousness. A conscious unit and freedom are one and the same. Conscious atom means endowed with freedom. Without freedom, it is matter

The inconceivably narrow line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called Tata; so also the meeting line of the Cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the Acit world or the region of maya is called Tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the Tata is known as the Tatastha (lying at the Tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the Cit or the Acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that . . . (From an English article by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati entitled, Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, 10th paragraph)

Visnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve Godhead he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency. (Sri Caitanya's Teacings-Part II, Chapter One, Third Edition, p. 365-6 by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta)

Mahavisnu, the Incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-sakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha-sakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas. (sattva, rajah, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 215-216)

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless. (Jaiva Dharma, page 234)

The cit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are the innumerable minute jivas. The Jivas emanate from the tatastha sakti (border potency) of Sri Krsna; so is the nature to tatastha (border potency) of Sri Krsna. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15, page 213)

The jiva-souls are emanated from the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna and they are spiritual but atomic. In the very self of the jiva-soul or in his constitution practically there remains no maya. As jiva-souls are atomic in size and being emanated from the tatastha-sakti of Sri Krsna (viz. from the intermediary-potency which exists in between cit-jagat and mayic-jagat) jiva-soul is liable to be subjected to maya when becomes averse to his constitutional right of serving the Lord. Jiva-soul in bondage misconstrues himself as the doer and enjoyer, therefore is affinated to the adopted bodies which are provided by prakrti. A jiva by dint of spiritual virtue may possess steadfast devotion to Sri Krsna and getting rid of worldly affinity goes back to the abode of bliss. (Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, ch. 7, text 34, purport by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

The semblance or dim reflection of the internal Cit-potency is the jiva-sakti (potency) or Tatastha-sakti stationed in between cit-jagat and a-cit-jagat or mayic-jagat whereas the shadow or perverted reflection of that internal cit potency is the maya-sakti or external a-cit potency. All the jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti of God and accordingly the mundane worlds emanate from the maya-sakti of God. (Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, chap. 1, Introd., By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world-they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya'with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7, page 95-96)

Among the unlimited potencies of Sri Krsna, there is one known as tatastha-sakti (border-potency). From that sakti comes out the jiva-souls remaining at the junction of the two worlds, viz., the transcendental and the mundane ones, may contact them both. In its composition it is only the atomic cit (pure sentience) . . . On account of the purity in its composition, it has got the capacity for being the eternal denizen with divine bliss in the transcendental power. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 4, page 46