Sonic Yogi

Krishna Book ch. 28

The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the Vrndavana lila of Krsna within this planet.

So, first taking birth in Krishna-lila on a planet in some material universe, then going back to Krishnaloka from there.

There is no straight shot to Goloka from the mundane plane.

You have to take birth in Vrindavan and then after Krishna's pastimes are concluded the destination is Goloka.

In fact we have to take birth in Krishna lila.

We don't just pop-up in Goloka like we have been there eternally.

Entering eternity involves a sequence of events.

Before attaining Goloka, the devotee takes birth in a material universe where the pastimes of Krishna are being manifested.

Then, the relationship and service to Krishna is developed through a natural sequence as if one is taking birth into Krishna-lila.

We don't already have a body in Goloka that we can go home to after leaving this body.

First we must take birth in the lila as it is being manifested here in the material world.

The entry into eternal life starts by taking birth in Krishna-lila.

Madhya 20.397 purport

After leaving the material body, the perfect devotee takes birth from the womb of a gopī on a planet where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are going on. This may be in this universe or another universe. This statement is found in the Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi, which is commented upon by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. When a devotee becomes perfect, he is transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are taking place. Kṛṣṇa's eternal associates go wherever Kṛṣṇa manifests His pastimes. As stated before, first the father and mother of Kṛṣṇa appear, then the other associates. Quitting his material body, the perfect devotee also goes to associate with Kṛṣṇa and His other associates.

This is how we attain our spiritual body if in fact we are going to enter Krishna lila.

It's not magic or voodoo.

We take birth in Gokula Vrindavan.

CC madhya 8.139.purport

Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura considers the brahma-bhūta stage in two divisions — svarūpa-gata and vastu-gata. One who has understood Kṛṣṇa in truth but is still maintaining some material connection is known to be situated in his svarūpa, his original consciousness. When that original consciousness is completely spiritual, it is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One who lives in such consciousness is actually living in Vṛndāvana. He may live anywhere; material location doesn't matter. When by the grace of Kṛṣṇa one thus advances, he becomes completely uncontaminated by the material body and mind and at that time factually lives in Vṛndāvana. That stage is called vastu-gata.

 

One should execute his spiritual activities in the svarūpa-gata stage of consciousness. He should also chant the cin-mayī Gāyatrī, the spiritual mantras oḿ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya, klīḿ kṛṣṇāya govindāya gopījana-vallabhāya svāhā, and klīḿ kāma-devāya vidmahe puṣpa-bāṇāya dhīmahi tan no 'nańgaḥ pracodayāt. These are the Kāma-gāyatrī or kāma-bīja mantras. One should be initiated by a bona fide spiritual master and worship Kṛṣṇa with these transcendental mantras.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.229

 

siddha-dehe cinti' kare tāhāńñi sevana

 

sakhī-bhāve pāya rādhā-kṛṣṇera caraṇa

 

SYNONYMS

 

siddha-dehe — in the perfected stage; cinti' — by remembering; kare — does; tāhāńñi — in the spiritual world; sevana — service; sakhī-bhāve — in mood of the gopīs; pāya — gets; rādhā-kṛṣṇera — of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa; caraṇa — the lotus feet.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"After thinking of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa and Their pastimes for a long time and after getting completely free from material contamination, one is transferred to the spiritual world. There the devotee attains an opportunity to serve Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa as one of the gopīs.

 

PURPORT

 

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura comments that the word siddha-deha, "perfected spiritual body," refers to a body beyond the material gross body composed of five elements and the subtle astral body composed of mind, intelligence and false ego. In other words, one attains a completely spiritual body fit to render service to the transcendental couple Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa: sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaḿ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170].

 

When one is situated in his spiritual body, which is beyond this gross and subtle material body, he is fit to serve Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. That body is called siddha-deha. The living entity attains a particular type of gross body in accordance with his past activities and mental condition. In this life the mental condition changes in different ways, and the same living entity gets another body in the next life according to his desires. The mind, intelligence and false ego are always engaged in an attempt to dominate material nature. According to that subtle astral body, one attains a gross body to enjoy the objects of one's desires. According to the activities of the present body, one prepares another subtle body. And according to the subtle body, one attains another gross body. This is the process of material existence. However, when one is spiritually situated and does not desire a gross or subtle body, he attains his original spiritual body.

Here again we read at least twice that the devotee ATTAINS a spiritual body.

The last one says "attains his original spiritual body".

What does "original" mean?

It means the first one.

Like "the first car I originally owned was a 65 Chevy Impala SS."

BG intro.-

This life is a preparation for the next life. If we can prepare, therefore, in this life to get promotion to the kingdom of God, then surely, after quitting this material body, we will attain a spiritual body just like the Lord's.

AFTER quitting this material body the devotee ATTAINS a spiritual body.

AFTER quitting the material body!

BG intro.-

one who leaves this body thinking of the Supreme Personality of Godhead at once attains a sac-cid-ananda body, as is promised in the fifth verse of the Eight Chapter where Lord Krsna says, "He attains My nature."

Again the devotee ATTAINS a spiritual body at the time of death if he remembers Krishna.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.134

 

bhakti-bale 'prāpta-svarūpa' divya-deha pāya

 

kṛṣṇa-guṇākṛṣṭa hañā bhaje kṛṣṇa-pā'ya

 

SYNONYMS

 

bhakti-bale — by the strength of devotional service; prāpta-svarūpa — attaining his original status; divya-deha — a transcendental body; pāya — one gets; kṛṣṇa-guṇa-ākṛṣṭa — attracted by the transcendental qualities of Kṛṣṇa; hañā — being; bhaje — takes to devotional service; kṛṣṇa-pā'ya — at Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"One who has attained his constitutional position by the strength of devotional service attains a transcendental body even in this lifetime. Being attracted by Lord Kṛṣṇa's transcendental qualities, he fully engages in service at His lotus feet.

Here again, we understand that the spiritual body is ATTAINED.

If the soul already had a spiritual body he would not need to ATTAIN a spiritual body.

SRILA PRABHUPADA - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream, all existence in this world is the dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu" .4.29.83.

SB 4.29.82

In His impersonal feature, He is the rays of His transcendental body. When a living entity attains spiritual perfection, he also attains the same type of body, known as sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha.

It says the jiva ATTAINS a spiritual body.

If he already had one he wouldn't need to ATTAIN a spiritual body.

If he already had one there is no meaning to "he also ATTAINS.

There is a recurring accusation that Bhagavan would have to be cruel because of the nature of the Jiva.

But, if Bhagavan was a really generous God he could create a place where souls who were envious of him could be imitation Gods enjoying forever.

But, no he created a miserable material world for all the rebellious souls who won't be good little slaves of his.

(devil's advocate)

Or is it that jivas are just so tiny and limited that they have to start as a one-celled organism and evolve through millions of forms of life before Bhagavan gives the jiva a body with higher consciousness?

No, what it is saying is that the karma of the jivas is beginningless, which was the point I made earlier, and which is accepted by all genuine Vaishnava Vedantins. And that pretty much negates any idea of "falling into the material world."

Well, there is brahma-karma - spiritual activities as well.

What kind of karma is the point.

Not all karma is material.

The jiva has eternally been engaged in some kind of karma either material or spiritual

brahmaiva tena gantavyaḿ

brahma-karma-samādhinā

I don't have a problem with the idea that the karma of every conditioned jiva is eternal, but I don't think the statements in the shastra are really specific enough to say that the everyone's karma is eternal.

The term "karma" has more than one use.

I also don't have a problem with the idea that jivas are eternally becoming disintegrated with brahman and becoming conditioned souls.

We do know from shastra that any living entity in the brahmajyoti can fall down due to lack of sufficient devotional service.

Shastra also says that some jivas get liberated into the brahmajyoti and fall down again.

So, the shastric statement as far as I can see doesn't specifically say that the karma of every individual soul is eternal.

Besides, that, karma is burned-up as the reactions take effect.

So, once one has suffered the reaction to some karma then that karma is expired though some new karma can be generated.

So, the statement "karma is anadi" does not convince me that it means that every living entity involved in karma has always been so for absolute eternity.

Jaya and Vijaya fell down from the plane of no karma to get involved in karma.

So, their karma had a beginning when they stopped the four Kumaras from entering the Vaikuntha gate.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.26.22

 

svacchatvam avikāritvaḿ

śāntatvam iti cetasaḥ

vṛttibhir lakṣaṇaḿ proktaḿ

yathāpāḿ prakṛtiḥ parā

SYNONYMS

 

svacchatvam — clarity; avikāritvam — freedom from all distraction; śāntatvam — serenity; iti — thus; cetasaḥ — of consciousness; vṛttibhiḥ — by characteristics; lakṣaṇam — traits; proktam — called; yathā — as; apām — of water; prakṛtiḥ — natural state; parā — pure.

TRANSLATION

 

After the manifestation of the mahat-tattva, these features appear simultaneously. As water in its natural state, before coming in contact with earth, is clear, sweet and unruffled, so the characteristic traits of pure consciousness are complete serenity, clarity, and freedom from distraction.

PURPORT

 

The pure status of consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, exists in the beginning; just after creation, consciousness is not polluted. The more one becomes materially contaminated, however, the more consciousness becomes obscured. In pure consciousness one can perceive a slight reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As in clear, unagitated water, free from impurities, one can see everything clearly, so in pure consciousness, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one can see things as they are. One can see the reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and one can see his own existence as well. This state of consciousness is very pleasing, transparent and sober. In the beginning, consciousness is pure.

According to the Srimad Bhagavatam consciousness was pure in the beginning.

Then contamination started to set it.

So, from the state of pure consciousness, karma started to happen.

It is called beginningless because nobody can trace out the specific time in which the jiva started his karma.

Vedanta-sutra II.I.35

 

 

Na karmavibhagaditi chet na anaditvat II.1.35 (169)

 

If it be objected that it (viz., the Lord's having regard to merit and demerit) is not possible on account of the non-distinction (of merit and demerit before creation), (we say) no, because of (the world) being without a beginning.

 

Na: not; Karmavibhagat: because of the non-distinction of work (before creation); Iti chet: if it be said, if it be objected in this way; Na: no, the objection cannot stand; Anaditvat: because of beginninglessness.

 

An objection against Sutra 34 is raised and refuted.

 

The Sutra consists of two parts, viz., an objection and its reply. The objective portion is 'Na karmavibhagaditi chet' and the reply portion is 'Na anaditvat'.

 

An objection is raised now. The Sruti says, "Being only this was in the beginning, one without a second." There was no distinction of works before creation of the world. There was only the absolutely One Real Being or Brahman. The creation at the beginning of one man as rich and of another as poor and unhappy cannot certainly depend on the respective previous good or bad deeds. The first creation must have been free from inequalities.

 

This objection cannot stand. The creation of the world is also without a beginning. There was never a time that may be said to be an absolute beginning. The question of first creation cannot arise. Creation and destruction of the world following each other continually by rotation is without any beginning and end. The condition of individual souls in any particular cycle of creation is predetermined by their actions in the previous cycle.

 

It cannot be said that there could be no Karma prior to creation, which causes the diversity of creation, because Karma is Anadi (beginningless). Creation is only the shoot from a pre-existing seed of Karma.

 

As the world is without a beginning, merit and inequality are like seed and sprout. There is an unending chain of the relation of cause and effect as in the case of the seed and the sprout. Therefore, there is no contradiction present in the Lord's creative activity.

Look and see if this sutra is saying that the karma of every individual jiva is eternal.

the Vedanta Sutra that explains that the karma of the jIva-s is beginningless.

could you please quote the reference?

I think it means that karma is an eternal principle.

God is eternal, the material worlds are an eternal happening and the principle of karma is an eternal fact.

Not that the karma of every living entity is eternal.

Karma is as eternal as the living entities are.

But, the karma of every individual jiva has some beginning, though it cannot be traced out.

Snonic Snogi: What's your take my post #28?

 

Well, when Bhaktivinoda said "no thought is a bad thought" I don't think he was meaning any thought in the world is not a bad thought.

If I thought about killing my spiritual master, then that would surely be a bad thought.

What Bhaktivinode is talking about is the Bhagavatam and it's seemingly ancient and outdated concepts.

He says:

The Bhagavata like all religious works and philosophical performances and writings of great men has suffered from the imprudent conduct of useless readers and stupid critics. The former have done so much injury to the work that they have surpassed the later in their evil consequence. Men of brilliant thoughts have passed by the work in quest of truth and philosophy, but the prejudice which. they imbibed from its useless readers and their conduct prevented them from making a candid investigation.

So, Bhaktivinode was defending the thought of the Bhagavat, not any thought than any person can come up with. There again he was trying to cause people to approach the Bhagavat with an open mind.

The Bhagavata has suffered alike from shallow critics both Indian and outlandish. That book has been accursed and denounced by a great number of our young countrymen, who have scarcely read its contents and pondered over the philosophy on which it is founded. It is owing mostly to their imbibing an unfounded prejudice against it when they were in school. The Bhagavata, as a matter of course, has been held in derision by those teachers, who are generally of an inferior mind and intellect.

There again statements always have a context and the broader context of the statement must be considered in order to get the meaning of the statement.

The one fundamental problem with a fall-down theory is, it can happen again.

 

The soul caught in material bondage can strive very hard and go back to Krishna and then, repeat the same mistake all over again and fall down.

 

 

Cheers

Exactly, but ISKCON devotees have manufactured some theory that you can only fall once and then you learn your lesson and never fall down again.

There again, one of the modern ISKCON myths that have been screwed out of some things Srila Prabhupada spoke.

Jesus spoke in parables.

Prabhupada spoke in metaphor many times.

The metaphorical approach can be helpful, but I don't think western people are as simple and gullible as they might have appeared to be to Srila Prabhupada. Maybe Hindus are simple and gullible, but westerners are very shrewd.

The movement has clearly caught up with some ISKCON myths that are now showing to be quite the burden as Gaudiya Vaishnavism has mushroomed largely outside of ISKCON since the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

Many things, like the situation of the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada have caught up as well with ISKCON and is dogging ISKCON quite embarrassingly.

The metaphorical stories and myths have about run their course and run out of their usefulness.

The bad talk about the Godbrothers has surely become an embarrassment to ISKCON as the movement is passing them by even though they control the properties of Srila Prabhupada.

If they didn't control the ISKCON assets, they wouldn't have much of anything going for them.

They are being gurus with borrowed plumes that are the properties of Srila Prabhupada.

The fall theory is ISKCON exclusive.

But, the KC movement is alive and well outside of ISKCON and exposing ISKCON as being somewhat of a laughing stock when it comes to certain aspects of the Gaudiya siddhanta.

the christian idea of eternal damnation, or the idea of nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned)...may simply mean an inconceivably long time!

To me it simply means that the jiva having once been manifested in the material world will be bound here indefinitely unless and until he gets liberation.

There is no time line.

So, eternal unless and until he get's liberated.

If a man is sentenced to life in prison, then he will be there for life.

That is unless he gets a pardon from the Governor.

If he becomes a model citizen then he can get out.

See, the "fall-down" theory is about a mean and vengeful God who sends all the bad souls to Hell for millions of years.

Actually, Lord Krishna is not mean or vengeful or jealous God.

The material world is his wonderful greenhouse where he takes seeds of souls and grows them into loving servants to assist him in his unlimited blissful enjoyment.

Of course, not every living entity cooperates in this project and they rebel once they get here, but in the end all the souls are forced to advance by the stringent laws of Mother Nature.

The fire-and-brimstone "fall down" theory might have been seen as a good approach in the western Judeo-Christian world.

But, not all the Vedic authorities present the creation in such light.

I personally rejected the "fall-down" theory a long time ago.

Resentment, what a strange idea. I don't think Sonic is suggesting that.

 

God desires reciprocation, relationship, and love. Maybe it is only natural that some of his parts situated in santa rasa, move into friendship etc. The Gaudiya philsophy has suggested that - see Brhad Bhagavatamrta.

 

Love is progressive and ever-new. Soul is dynamic and potent, not inert.

 

As Beggar is suggesting vision of this world may depend on our angle of vision. If we are conditioned and suffering the world may appear as a prison house. If we are Krsna conscious the world may be seen as Vaikuntha (realizing the Supreme Person's design). The teachers have presented various angles for us to contemplate.

 

Remember, we are parts and parcels of that great Personality. How can God resent himself?

Well said.

Krishna is always expanding his enjoyment and helping living entities rise up and out of the brahmajyoti to become personal servants.

In the short run it appears quite painful for the jiva, but in the end his position is greatly improved and his bliss increased a millionfold.

Taking sparks from the brahmajyoti and evolving them into loving relationships and elevating the jiva to higher levels is the work and the play of the Lord.

It has nothing to do with resentment.

I never suggested any such thing.

Theist is trying to put words in my mouth for his own reasons that aren't very noble.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.5.6

 

yathā punaḥ sve kha idaḿ niveśya

 

śete guhāyāḿ sa nivṛtta-vṛttiḥ

 

yogeśvarādhīśvara eka etad

 

anupraviṣṭo bahudhā yathāsīt

 

SYNONYMS

 

yathā — as much as; punaḥ — again; sve — in His; khe — form of space (virāṭ-rūpa); idam — this; niveśya — entering into; śete — lies down; guhāyām — within the universe; saḥ — He (the Personality of Godhead); nivṛtta — without endeavor; vṛttiḥ — means of livelihood; yoga-īśvara — the master of all mystic powers; adhīśvaraḥ — proprietor of everything; ekaḥ — one without a second; etat — this; anupraviṣṭaḥ — entering afterwards; bahudhā — by innumerable; yathā — as much as; āsīt — exists.

 

TRANSLATION

 

He lies down on His own heart spread in the form of the sky, and thus placing the whole creation in that space, He expands Himself into many living entities, which are manifested as different species of life. He does not have to endeavor for His maintenance, because He is the master of all mystic powers and the proprietor of everything. Thus He is distinct from the living entities.

 

PURPORT

 

The questions regarding creation, maintenance and destruction, which are mentioned in many parts of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, are in relation to different millenniums (kalpas), and therefore they are differently described by different authorities when questioned by different students. There is no difference regarding the creative principles and the Lord's control over them, yet there are some differences in the minute details because of different kalpas. The gigantic sky is the material body of the Lord, called the virāṭ-rūpa, and all material creations are resting on the sky, or the heart of the Lord. Therefore, beginning from the sky, the first material manifestation to the gross vision, down to the earth, everything is called Brahman. Sarvaḿ khalv idaḿ brahma: "There is nothing but the Lord, and He is one without a second." The living entities are the superior energies, whereas matter is the inferior energy, and the combination of these energies brings about the manifestation of this material world, which is in the heart of the Lord.

The Lord expands himself into all the living entities.

There is no falling down going on.

Quite simply all the jivas are expanded from Lord Vishnu.

I like the way Maitreya Muni describes it to Vidura.

None of the fire-and-brimstone falling down business like we hear so much in modern times.

Ok friends, it's time for me to drop a bomb of siddhanta on this topic and reveal a little known fact of spiritual knowledge.

This is of course not going to be accepted by those who prefer to put their head in the sand and pretend that Srila Prabhupada never actually put this in his books, but HE DID.

We did not FALL DOWN!!

We never fell down from anywhere, not even the brahmajyoti.

We came to the material world by THE WILL OF KRISHNA.

It was never our decision to make.

Krishna put us here out of his own sweet will.

The jiva souls don't fall down.

They are sent to the material world by the will of God.

For those who aren't to blind too read, here is how Srila Prabhupada explains it in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1 purport:

The spirit soul is distinct from the material conception of his life, but he is absorbed in such a material conception because of being influenced by the external energy of the Lord, called ātma-māyā. This has already been explained in the First Canto in connection with Vyāsadeva's realization of the Supreme Lord and His external energy. The external energy is controlled by the Lord, and the living entities are controlled by the external energy — by the will of the Lord.

Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord in being influenced by the external energy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā (15.15) also the same thing is confirmed; the Lord is present within the heart of every living entity, and all the living entity's consciousness and forgetfulness are influenced by the Lord.

Now the next question automatically made will be why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be in his pure consciousness as a part and parcel of the Lord and thus be engaged in the loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made; but because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become as independent as the Lord is. All the nondevotee living entities are desirous of becoming equally as powerful as the Lord, although they are not fit to become so. The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him. Like a person who thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualification, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forget his factual life and thus dream of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother, and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the reflection of the moon. Similarly, the crying child of the Lord is given over to the reflection, the material world, to lord it over as karmī and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this. But the fact is that as soon as he desired it, he was put under the control of ātma-māyā by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is "mine" and this is "I." The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as "I" or falsely thinks that he is the Lord and that everything in connection with that material body is "mine." Thus only in dream does the misconception of "I" and "mine" persist life after life. This continues life after life, as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord.

In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream, and in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love.

 

So, the living entity has no power to enter prakriti or maya of his own power.

The conditioned jiva is sent to the material world by the will of Krishna because the living entity was not willing to serve the Lord in his position in the brahmajyoti. He just wanted to be neutral in shanta-rasa.

A tiny jiva with no spiritual knowledge does not fall down.

He is sent to the material world by the will of the Lord.

His forgetfulness is also because of Krishna:

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.15

 

sarvasya cāhaḿ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo

 

mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaḿ ca

 

vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo

 

vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham

 

SYNONYMS

 

sarvasya — of all living beings; ca — and; aham — I; hṛdi — in the heart; sanniviṣṭaḥ — situated; mattaḥ — from Me; smṛtiḥ — remembrance; jñānam — knowledge; apohanam — forgetfulness; ca — and; vedaiḥ — by the Vedas; ca — also; sarvaiḥ — all; aham — I am; eva — certainly; vedyaḥ — knowable; vedānta-kṛt — the compiler of the Vedānta; veda-vit — the knower of the Vedas; eva — certainly; ca — and; aham — I.

 

TRANSLATION

 

I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

If we forgot Krishna, it was because such forgetfulness came from Krishna.

If we forgot the brahmajyoti, it was because such forgetfulness came from Krishna.

Jivas don't "fall down" to the material world.

They are sent here from the brahmajyoti by the sweet will of Krishna.

No jiva has the power to break away from Krishna and try to become an imitation Lord.

Krishna is in complete control.

Nobody has any power to breach the control of Krishna.

His absolute control is invincible.

If the jiva forgets any position of any origin, it is because Krishna is the cause of such forgetfulness for his own purposes.

before we were conditioned nitya-baddha we were liberated spirit sparks of the brahmajyoti.

then, we blooped from the brahmajyoti and became nitya-baddha jivas.

In the simplest of terms, that is what happened.

The liberated associates of the Lord are immune from falldown.

Illusion or selfish desire has no play in the personal association of Krishna.

In plain English, Nitya-Baddha means "stuck on stupid".

It we just look around it is easy to see that there are many living entities "stuck on stupid".

So, nitya-baddha means that so far up to the present day the living entity has been a conditioned soul since he first emanated from the glance of Maha-Vishnu over prakriti.

Destiny can only be changed by the sweet will of Krishna.

If a living entity turns to the service of Krishna, then Krishna has the option to change his destiny as a conditioned soul and accept him into the ranks of the liberated soul.

So, since the beginning, the baddha-jiva has been conditioned.

At one time the spirit spark was integrated into the absolute whole.

Somehow he became disintegrated and since becoming a separated part-and-parcel he has been a conditioned soul..

The Lord is served by all His parts and parcels, as the complete machine is served by its parts and parcels. Any part of the machine removed from the whole is no longer important. Similarly, any part and parcel of the Absolute detached from the service of the Lord is useless. The living beings who are in the material world are all disintegrated parts and parcels of the supreme whole, and they are no longer as important as the original parts and parcels. There are, however, more integrated living beings who are eternally liberated. The material energy of the Lord, called Durgā-śakti, or the superintendent of the prison house, takes charge of the disintegrated parts and parcels, and thus they undergo a conditioned life under the laws of material nature. When the living being becomes conscious of this fact, he tries to go back home, back to Godhead, and thus the spiritual urge of the living being begins. This spiritual urge is called brahma-jijñāsā, or inquiry about Brahman.

SB 1.9.44 purport

The jiva in maya is simply dreaming!!!

No, the (lucid!) vision of Prabhupada may have been absolutely correct. But the original question of this thread was: "Does time exist in the Spititual World?".

We already quoted the acharya and shastra to show that there is time in the spiritual world.

How many times do we have to prove what has already been proven?

In case you are new to forums, threads take all kinds of twists and turns and I haven't found one yet that stays strictly on topic.

It's like driving on the highway.

You don't always follow the speed limit, you just go with the flow.

So, Prabhupada only dreamed there was planet that needed Krishna consciousness and he only dreamed that he spread the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu all over the world?

If the world is just a dream, then why do so many incarnations come here to deliver living entities?

The material world is real.

The dream is that we are the enjoyers and the lords of the material world.

Pradhana is real.

Prakriti is real.

Maya is real.

The dream is our false ego.

The false ego is the dream.

The material energy is eternal.(as Pradhan)

It is not anyone's dream.

The dream of God is real.

It is not false.

If Vishnu dreams the material world it is still real, because the dream of Vishnu is reality.