valaya

A raid at a Kensington Market (where I shop) apartment turned up a video showing a housecat being tortured and killed. The skinned and headless carcass of a cat was found in the fridge. Other animal skeletons were uncovered in the flat as well, police said. One of the two accused men described himself as an artist and a vegan who videotapes animal deaths to expose the cruelty to animals butchered for consumption.

Thank you, Janus prabhu, for your continuing attention to this thread. As I see it, those who would make Srila Prabhupada the all-in-all actually restrict him in their attempt to define/confine His Divine Grace. They seem to believe he is available only to his initiated disciples or through his books, ISKCON, etc. Of course, they cannot imagine the extent of such a great acharya's transcendental activities, but who can? My past, present and future personal relationship with Prabhupada as Sri Guru and with Srimati Radharani as Swamini-Kishori is exactly that-- personal. It's not that others can come between us whatever they may believe their position/role to be. Nor is anyone able to forcibly squeeze my hard-won realizations from the last 30 years out of me, that were painfully obtained through His Divine Grace as the transparent via media. Although the desire to share with all is still strong, I'm realizing more and more how few are actually able to appreciate, let alone reciprocate. Wilful ignorance causes intentional misunderstandings and even politically motivated misinformation. This, in my humble opinion, is the real offense and abuse. Those who wish to glorify must themselves become glorious. "By their fruits you shall know them!" One can't help wondering what Srila Prabhupada must think of some of his `fruits`...in fact, it may very well have been the actions of his initiated `disciples`, particularly those who abandoned their vows, that resulted in his premature departure from this world. valaya RR

'thanks in no small part to my involvement within iskcon I am unable to see clearly who is who or what is what, etc?' This is to be pitied but point is this is from one who claims to respect Prabhupada. Point is not to disturb needlessly but this ignorance has to be shown.

Truer words were never spoken! Such wilfully ignorant, myopic individuals should perhaps avoid challenging others in public forums by prefacing their statements with "Debate This!", when only comforting affirmations are desired in response. Nor should those who dare to attempt rational discussion be branded as `demons`. To clarify once again, my criticism is of obviously unrealized so-called `followers` and self-styled `Gaudiya-vaisnava devotees` who confuse cheap words of glorification with actual surrender to Sri Guru and Gauranga; particularly those with a `we vs. them` exclusive mentality that attempt to force their will upon others, wherever and whenever without any restrictions whatsoever. No criticism was ever intended towards His Divine Grace Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, to whom I personally credit any realizations I may have acquired and whom I consider fully surrendered to Sri Sri Radha-Krsna at all times. Had my post not applied to anyone here, it would not have elicited such vehement vitriolic defensiveness, comparable to that of a cornered little animal, from the usual quarters. While adamantly criticizing offensiveness to their own guru and themselves, they have no reservations when it it comes to lashing out offensively at other supposedly lesser beings often deemed unworthy of life itself, let alone His Divine Grace as THEY understand him to be... valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-12-2001).]

Sorry you seem to have such an obviously limited vision of God and guru. The trouble you've gone to searching archives so extensively just to supposedly `expose` little ole me is really flattering in some strangely convoluted way. Needless to say, you continue misinterpreting whatever I say or have said. However, so long as it keeps you busy and amusing yourselves... ihlm valaya RR

What in thunder...? ihlm valaya RR

There are many instances cited in Krsna's pastimes where He is defeated by His devotees in the form of parents, friends, and lovers. He seems to enjoy it...

Satyaraja: Don't expect references for `Mahaksaisms`, prabhu, in fact how dare you even ask...?! Certainly Hari is one, but there are various ways of explaining and relating to Him. The best so far is acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, in my humble opinion. It cannot be understood philosophically beyond a certain point as personal realization is required. Then everything becomes subjective and to some even `sectarean`. What to do? You pays your money and takes your choice, as the saying goes. Sometimes the mother bird must push her babies out of the nest so they can learn to fly...that time will surely come for all of us when we have no choice and further discussion/study is no longer an option. Meanwhile, there are always reasons to believe this or disbelieve that, even though none of it has any effect on the Absolute Reality. In the end we are so completely insignificant, are we not, what to speak of our changing opinions? Still, whatever turns you on... valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-12-2001).]

I believe Lord Jesus Christ has personally helped me a lot and I've been praying to him ever since I can remember. In fact, I still do sometimes. I used to plead with him to save me from all this `madness` that started with ISKCON, but he only seemed to help me accept it by providing a deeper understanding. Took the edge off, so to speak... valaya RR

___________________ Don't know if this refers to me or not, but I don't change previous posts to obscure their original message. They are also intended for the ultimate benefit of all, not simply a stream of meaningless insults aimed solely at inflicting personal pain. Truth may hurt at times, but causing hurt should not be misconstrued as automatically imparting truth... valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-12-2001).]

I remember How Srila Prabhupada often warned us against becoming `so-called Christians`. Now some of the so-called `Prabhupada-nugas` are saying he alone is the way and they have no need for the guidance or even association of any living guru. In fact, Riviks are encouraging those who have never had the direct personal association of Srila Prabhupada, while he was alive, to take `initiation` from him with their help and a picture. What to make of all this? My understanding is that the momentary physical association of a pure devotee transfers His Divine Grace automatically, at least to some extent. I never spoke to Prabhupada, yet he pointed at and forcefully chastised me for not sitting properly, something I still cannot do due to physical problems. I remain without any formal initiation. What to do when no particular present day guru seems comparable to him? The scriptures tell us that we all need `dust from the lotus feet of the pure devotee`. What's that about? After sweeping the temple room floor when the Sunday feast had finished, I'd pile up all the dust and put some on my head (must be at least one pure devotee there, eh?). Also, how about caranamrita (I used to sneak into the temple room after everyone else was asleep and finish off what was left...)? Then there's Radha-kunda water (still have over a quart left from my visit to India), maha-prasadam, etc. etc. Does it really come down to a matter of faith? I first saw Srila Prabhupada thirty years ago and that's when he yelled at me, "Sit properly or GET OUT"! The devotees called it special mercy and I seem to have been receiving it ever since... If anyone else finds themselves in a similar position, where they feel they are being forced into Krsna-consciousness in spite of themselves, rather than due to any partcular sadhana they may be performing, I'd certainly like to hear from them (amanpeter@hotmail.com). Anyway, this is how I see it, prabhus, right or wrong. We've all been touched by His Divine Grace somehow or other... Whether or not we can be defined as devotees is actually irrelevant, because we are all destined to become perfected souls eventually. Sri Guru is one and we are all `under the influence`. Since I am apparently unable to surrender to any one gurudev at this point in time, I seek shelter only in Srimati Radharani (as I see Her), trusting that in the future all necessary arrangements will be made by Her. I'd rather keep vows I haven't made than make vows I do not keep... I do believe that the process of Bhakti should be much more simple and natural than we tend to make it, for whatever reasons. After all, we are not the controllers, are we? Thank God for that! valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-12-2001).]

Haribol Leyh! Just delete the previous automatic edit messages at the end of your post and only one (the latest) will appear.

This would include, of course, Jayasriradhey glorifying Sri Kripalu Maharaja...or is she and anyone else that doesn't agree with you simply demonic, so they just don't count? valaya RR

AMEN to that! RR

Dear Satyaraja prabhu, what more can I say here? Too much has been said already... I'm just nothing going nowhere, but something did happen to me and I can't deny it nor escape from it's consequences. I thought my heart was made of stone, if indeed I even had one, but it was melted in a moment in front of the diety of Sri Radha (Radha-Gopinath in Toronto). Of course, at that point it was really a matter of life or death... I was so acutely aware of my offensive nature and absolute need for Her mercy. Everything works together ultimately for the best, though mostly I find that difficult to accept. As you kindly keep reminding us, it's all dependent on the free will of Hari and His Divine Grace is essential. Please don't think that any of your experiences, including those with various gurus, will not eventually prove to be incomprehendably valuable. It all comes together in the end and then a new beginning starts. That's my limited realization so far, anyway. I do not mean to appear condescending or patronizing or whatever. Sometimes I just feel a kind of melancholy for all of us caught up in this. Like the song says, "Love Hurts! valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-09-2001).]

Dear Talasiga, I don't want to become any more contentious on this thread than forced to, usually by Satyaraja. Thank you for looking deeper into my posts than most others tend to. There really is nothing and no one more personal than Sri Radhika, nor is anything more intimate than the relationships She has with Her girlfriends. As you must know, this subject matter is considered highly confidential and all scriptures/gurus advise against sharing such `realizations` openly, especially on public internet forums. Since I am not an initiated devotee and for the most part at my wit's end, I dare to go where no fool has gone before. At some point, I expect all this to simply stop, because it does not seem to be having any positive effect on others and possibly a strongly negative one. I find it quite impossible to define this subject objectively, which to me means `impersonally`. I would like nothing better than to share reciprocally with others of like mind/heart, but I appear to be way out on the far edge of nowhere, flying on a wing and a prayer. As I am really so alone and at least somewhat desperate all of the time, my path is of necessity different than most. I do feel some kinship with you and hope that you will cut me a lot of slack by not taking what is said the wrong way. Anyway, referring to your above quote: the answer previously given at the start of this thread was that the soul of Radha is Her girlfriends' devotion to Her. That is my own intuitive belief and my closest scriptural reference is `Sri Gita-mala` (page 73), by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura. The entire book is available online for free from the Bhaktivedanta Memorial Library, set up and maintained by our very own randOM axis (Buta-bhavana das) while he is not engaged in defending the Free World from terrorist threats, etc. If you need the address, I can post it, but I don't know how to make it work automatically when you click on it. Although so much emphasis seems to be placed on our service to God, there is another way of seeing Him/Her. As the greatest, God is also the greatest servant, particularly where the surrendered devotees are concerned. In fact, the whole of creation with all it's unlimited variegatedness is ultimately created for our pleasure. Although Krsna can be seen as the Supreme Enjoyer, it is a very limited way of defining Him and definitely not the way He prefers to be identified. He much prefers to be addressed as Radha-Govinda, Radha-Damodara, Radha-Gopinatha and so on, since these names identify Him as the beloved servant of His devotee. Radha's relationship with Her girlfriends is especially precious and `The Book of Radha` by Sri Srila Prabodhananda Saraswati Goswami contains so many beautiful poetic descriptions in this regard. It is available from Dasaratha Suta dasa who translates and distributes this, Sri Gita-mala and much more nectar through `Nectar Books`, Georgia, USA. I know him personally and would be happy to put you two together. Jai Jai Sri Radhe! valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-10-2001).]

Not so much a question of `insistence` as personal realization, prabhu. Your learning, and probably intelligence as well, far exceeds mine. I can only speak from my own experience which I believe was obtained through His Divine Grace and confirmed by scriptures that you appear unable to place any faith in. Still, in spite of our discussions here, something/someone deep inside me remains unshakeable. It can't be my mind, because that's becoming more and more inoperable day by day as this body ages. Nor can it be intelligence, for who with any intelligence would choose to live such a wretched miserable life as mine. No, I think it must have to do with heart and that, Satyaraja, is where you may be sadly lacking. No offense intended. valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-09-2001).]

That seems a little too easy on him, BB. I'm thinking aim a little lower, as in `cajones`...course that's just for starters!

Certainly an interesting obsevation, Satyaraja prabhu, and a seemingly logical conclusion. Yet who would dare to `debate` when they risk total ostracizing and vehement accusations of offensive anti-Prabhupada/Gaudiya-math, vaisnava aparadha, etc. etc.? The only solution I see is a personal one which is not to align myself with any guru, group or guru-groupies. Of course that severely limits any further spiritual advancement I might make in this lifetime and I end up being criticized anyway. Nor can I deny the effect Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami has had on myself and so many others. Though some may believe otherwise, I do give all glories to Srila Prabhupada. Then again, in the end it all depends on the Divine Grace of God Himself/Herself and their Holy Names, doesn't it? Haribol! valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-08-2001).]

Thank you, Talasiga. My definition of soul would be: The inner eternally concious essence that gives life to the outer body. I see reality as the most personal inner potency enclosed with various levels of the more impersonal external potency. Of course you already know that I consider Sri Radhika as the all-in-all. Perhaps you could start a new thread on the `soul`, though I'd probably end up bursting that, too... I do believe that pure emotion, that is `spiritual sentiment`, is at the very root of life itself. Krsna-consciousness without feeling loses it's vitality, while attachments based on a deeply personal bonding seem more potent and tangible, at least to me. Guru, sadhu and shastra are provided to confirm what is already in our heart-of-hearts, are they not? Surely there must be some affinity other than philosophical, at least on the path of devotion. Of course that's only my own personal opinion and feelings, based on my life experiences...after all is said and done, what else do any of us have to offer other than ourselves? valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-08-2001).]

Yoga-maya or Maha-maya, both are aspects of Sri Radha without whom Krsna's pastimes would not exist. So-called `mayavadis` may contemplate His pastimes and chant the Holy Names as well, however their motivation and therefore destination, is quite different. The absolute truth exists as impersonal(one) and personal(diverse), described as `acintya-bhedabheda-tattva`. While the personal conception includes the impersonal, the same cannot be said in reverse. Thus one is clearly superior in every respect. Still there are those who appear to prefer the impersonal, mainly because they have not truly experienced the personal, for whatever reason. All theorizing aside, the proof remains in the tasting, as always. Haribol! valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-08-2001).]

I must admit to having some difficulty in following what you're expressing at times, Satyaraja prabhu, nor can I understand your previous post. Concerning equilibrium though, according to my own limited understanding and painful/pleasureable personal experiences, there simply is no `balance` in LOVE. Neither can personal relationships be considered a `process`, at least not in the highest/deepest sense, although religions most certainly can. Spontaneity must come directly from the heart. Love is an overpowering force. For one reason or another, some reluctance is there in all of us to just leap into it all at once. Still, we do occasionally fall in love, don't we, in spite of ourselves? Nor can any number of calculated manipulations keep the loving relationship going, if that original spark is completely lost. Once the fire of Divine Love has been ignited in us by His Divine Grace, is it not our personal responsibility to nurture it within each other using all possible care? Does any of this make any sense to anyone? If so, can we try to discuss what it might mean to actually love one another, beyond all these technicalities? This thread is entitled `Who is the Soul of Radha?` and that, prabhus, is the only answer I have. Sorry if my own obvious shortcomings weaken or destroy it's impact. valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-08-2001).]

I think you are saying "rather than", in other words stressing the supremacy of simply glorifying Sri Hari without any philosophical or religious `process`. To this I wholeheartedly agree! My own humble opinion is that Hari as Krsna wishes His devotees to be glorified as greater than Himself, due to His inability to repay their unlimited pure devotion, and by far the greatest devotee is Srimati Radharani. In fact, She alone is considered one and equal with Sri Krsna. Glorification is best done completely and continuously with body, mind and soul. In other words, one's whole life and being should be totally devoted exclusively to Hari. This is most easily achieved in the personal association of His pure devotees and it is impossible without His Divine Grace. Fully realizing that we are not the doers engaged in any `process`, we thus give all glories to His Divine Grace! My own conclusions, confirmed through personal experience and studies, is that Sri Radha alone must be considered as the very source of that same Divine Grace. She is also defined as Hladini, the essence of Krsna's internal potency, which is the basis/foundation of all other potencies. Our connection with the Absolute and each other, in fact with everyone and everything, is only through Her. How we acknowledge this fact depends on to what degree we individually desire personal intimacy. Our bond with Her is on all levels simultaneously, however it is the emotional relationship we feel, in the deepest depth of our hearts, that is the way in which we can perceive Her most closely. As we identity with Radhika, realizing that it is only She to whom we belong, and that Krsna is Her's alone; we find ourselves naturally falling into place, the part complimenting the whole. The spiritual master Sri Guru is here to assist in that by engaging us in `devotional service`. While it may appear we are serving Krsna directly, on closer examination we can see that is not the case. It is most important to understand/accept that we can only assist Radha in Her relationship/service to Krsna and even then, we are NOT the doers. Krsna wants ONLY Radha! Our roles must never attempt to usurp Her's, or His' either, for that matter. There is absolutely no reason for a manjari to envy anyone for she is always able to enjoy the activities between Radha and Krsna moreso than anyone else, including the Divine Couple themselves! This is the unique GIFT available to all of us from Lord Caitanya. No qualifications required on our parts! Whether we can appreciate and therefore take advantage of this rare opportunity remains up to us. Strangely, we cannot enjoy the `Higher Taste` for very long ourselves unless we learn how to share with others. That is the nature of Divine Love as that is the nature of Srimati Radharani Herself, and therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. That, not proselytizing, is His Sankirtan Movement. valaya RR [This message has been edited by valaya (edited 10-08-2001).]

Absolutely!...I think...RR