sambya

explantions needed !!!

there are two kinds of brahmanas -- by birth and by qualities . there are some qualities which is traditionally thought to be characteristics of any brahmana such as , daya (compassion) , suchita(hygene) , satyavadi (truthful ) etc. in the later vedic period the varna system became rigid and the process of determining a brahmana by guna(qualities) became obsolete. it was the late 19th century hindu reform movements which recognised and introduced method of initiating people as brahmanas based on their qualities. but that doesnt make brahmanas by birth less valuable either. thousands of years of gloroius ancestry , education and many other qualities do pass on to the next generation . so if someone is born as a brahmana it makes no sense to get his thread removed and handed over again after harinaam-brahmin initiation . it would definitely be a disregard of a 3000 year old tradition and a forcefull glorification of gaudiya vaishnavism , which i think is not very respectfull . there are many other religious orders who does not remove the thread but give a second gaayatri initiation later as a method of reinforcing the individua's already existing , but dormant brahminical qualities. it wiser and better to bring out the brahminical qualities than tear off the thread with no respect to the age old custom.

apart from brahma samhita and other similar vaishnav texts which other scripture dealing with nature of brahman says as such ??

thanks amalesh . jai raghunath

firstly , for your understanding , i said that i believe all religions do have some elements of fault in them . mine own is also not an exception but i follow it because i feel that it is closest to my heart and i can directly relate to its veiws and theories. no , im not . its only that you did not get the right understanding of my first posts . most defintely , i condemn them in my mind but not publically . if i want to save the follwers of such a faith i would silently talk to them about correct spirituality , methods of choosing a guru , aims in human life etc without ever going into analysations of their path and expect that they realise their mistakes and rectify it , instead of erecting a public platform and shouting over microphone that all of them are following a bogus guru . for if i would have done the latter it would have hurt the already mislead people and might even make them more staunch followers of their misleading paths . but even after my efforts if someone is happy to pursue that path i would silently leave him realising that time has not yet come for deep spirituality in his life . all he wants is religious ritualistic life or cheap remedies to personal problems . ha ha !!!!! youre badly confused here.............. in the begining i just mentioned some points or features that i personally dislike of iskcon . its then that you came up defending iskcon's stand . then you said the if you feel that there are several loopholes in a theory you have to condemn it . reading this i wrote back thats exactly what i did in the begining . i personally thought that there are some loopholes in this 'food for life' thing and mentioned my thought . so this is completely in accordance with your own ideals . so wouldnt your ideal be equally applicable all over and to everyone ? direct and public proclamation of anything demands the proof of its existence . proof means that which is true to eyes and senses of the majority of beholders . but sadly in things like spirituality there is no proper majority . people differ by wide angles . so truth as percieved by one might not be truth as percieved by another. deception as percieved by one may not be deception as percieved by another. this makes such concepts as truth , deceptions etc relative (grossly speaking ) . now from this relative standpoint can any logical individual shout abuses or condemn or criticise others ? obviously i wouldnt mind if you want to stay out of the list of 'logical individuals' !!! ans--REading the posts from the begining, no one tried to push their beliefs to you and tried to convert you. why did you step up into this argument ? i merely expressed my personal opinions about iskcon's food for life . i dont tolerate those who have never been educated on how to tolerate . infact 'tolerate' is again a derogatory term . when i say 'i tolerate ' it automatically implies that although i dislike other religions i dont raise a voice. a nobler term would be ' i respect ' which would mean that although i love my own faith the most , i respect all other beliefs also . by striking against their belief that they can do almost anything to derogate and demean other thought systems i have attempted to show them where they lack .... advice--- Just keep it inside and let it go. Otherwise you will end up contradicting and confusing yourself.

hey !!! where in this thread did i criticise anything ?? cant i express the alternative views that are existing ? yes , i cant . but what is ' core vedic scriptures ' and who gave its complete undisputed translations till date ? can you suggest any name ? yes , i can never do that . because bhakti is a rarest of rare phenomenon which is seen in only some blessed individuals due to previous life's good samskars (impressions) . it is seen to arise in a person's life spontaneously and does not require external preaching etc etc . external preaching and such things can make one religious , moral or spiritually inclined at the most . but true spirituality ( brahma jigyasa ) is always inherent and spontaneous. where did i criticise ? infact it was you who made implied criticisms when you said that bhakti is the only way to god. im just asking some basic questions to get a better understanding of your theory.---- 1--what are the meanings and interpretaions of sambhutim and sambhutyam ? 2--what you think of mira -- the legendary royal princess who gave up everything for want of krishna and had no guru ? if you cant answer and also lack in a basic knowledge of sanskrit then it would be best to stop posting such views.

andy108 , im waiting for my answers ........................

i fail to understand why a religious order striving at self realization bothers itself with such petty issues . maybe it is because iskcon , unlike many other religious orders is not purely monastic but also has grihsta folds in it. its a society than a monastery . if thats the cause then iskcon should make proper provisions for gays also . but speaking in terms of spirituality nothing can be achieved with sex of either kind ( homosex and heterosex ) or any other similar things that causes mental agitation . remember even grihasta sex life is an option for those who cannot directly afford sannyas and does not simplify things for self realization.

good . thanks bija.

you must realise that there are innumerable different interpretations of virtually every sloka in hinduism . and even there are different versions of the same sloka .. i have this same sloka in the following manner ---- andham tamah pravishyanti ye avidyamupasate tato bhuyoh iva te tamo ya u vidyayam ratah . andham -- blind tamah--darkness pravishyanti--enters ye--those who avidyam upasyate--worships avidya tato bhuyoh iva-- even more than that tamah--darkness ya u--but who vidyayam ratah--engaged in vidya those who are engaged in worship of avidya enter into darkness . but still more so do those who are engaged with vidya. now this might come as a shock . we know vidya to be interpreted as knowledge and avidya as ignorance . but here it is said that both vidya and avidya leads one to darkness !!! according to one interpretation here avidya refers to fruitive activities like charity , yajna etc and vidya refers to any worship for the want of material rewards or sense gratification . thus both leads one away from true realization . normally what you interpret as ' demigod ' are called as devas in sanskrit . but even in your sloka i did not find any such word . so i failed to understand the manner in which it was translated . since you are knowledgeble enough to post such a serious discussion i would request you to kindly explain how this translation was effected. what are the meanings and interpretaions of sambhutim and sambhutyam ? while i dont deny disciplic succession i would like to konw what you think of mira -- the legendary royal princess who gave up everything for want of krishna and had no guru ?

before max muller the vedas were pratically lost . none of the brahmins of india had a complete book with himself .max muller realised this critical situation and for 20 years roamed about the subcontinent gathering together the palm leaf manuscripts piece by piece to save it from extinction. then it took another 18 years to finish the final manuscript and its translation before it could be finally printed . thus it was though his hard work that we have the vedas still among us . secondly he did not write a commentary on vedas . western world accepted his translation as an infalliable commentary .

historically speaking gayatri was the principal mantra of the aryas. it is considered as vedamata or mother of the vedas . vedas as we all know are the highest divine revelations of hinduism .remember the term vedas also includes the upanishads which form the gyan kaanda of the vedas. the extract of these vedas are said to be in this gayatri . the importance of this mantra meant that many other gayatris were also concieved in the later vedic period , such as surya gayatri or durga gayatri. harekrishna mahamantra or taarak brahma naam got popular at a much later date as the bhakti cults became more popular . its influence particularly increased after chaitanya . it is a later concept . in terms of importance gayatri stands on a superior platform . there is hardly any sect that would dare to oppose or deny gayatri . the same cannot be said of mahamantra. but in terms of spiritual power i believe both are equal . its ultimately the faith that matters . and the focus of both of them is on self realization

because every time i showed proper logic you continued your illogical arguments and stopped posting once you were drained of your limited scriptural knowledge and rational sense.

tell me something ........ how do you define ignorance ? one must come out of ignorance to understand what it really is. if dating puranas is spiritual ignorance to you , accepting it unconditionally may be historical ignorance or intellectual deficiency to me . i guess our limited faculties can never be understood through your unlimited passion for contradictory fairytale stories.

indeed , quite a horrifying incident !!!! shiva and narayana same ?? NEVER !!!! im so scared that shiva might 'overtake' vishnu in popularity if such remarks go on to be preached. lets work out a plan to bring B J P back to power in india so that they can pass a legislation and stop such sacrilegeous programmes on television . just imagine the audacity of these channels !!! think of the condition of those helpless innocent veiwers who shall be mislead into worshipping shiva and pave their way to kumbhipaak hell. just imagine !! shastras ( brely 200 years old ) have specifically stated that krishna is the supreme and yet some make these mistakes again and again . lets start posting new threads to educate all people here on this forum that vaishnavism , christianity , islam along with the other world religions (excluding advaita , shaktas , shaivas , ganapatyas , sauryas) are the true religions. what a pity that people are not waking up even after 30 years of an illustrious movement .

he is the object of experience !!!!!!!!! infact there is no other way except ecperience .

brahman is the only 'object' . this might be one of the infinite ways of understanding him.

may be you are speaking advaita . in this branch there is no distinction between jivatma and paramatma . in fact there is no distinction at all . but in dualistic school they are eternally different.

everything is according to the need of the hour . god does whatever suits for the present cause . maybe earth is in greater need of human population right now than other animals . and this rapid population growth can be explained by saying that the lower animal forms are slowly coming up to the level of humans(human birth is a chance to realise god) , but not getting liberated due to adharmic lifestyles . this might be causing this population explosion . but at the same time there is a equal dissapearence and extinction of lower lifeforms also . ultimately who can know his wish ? actually its the followers of god who are so interested in making all faithfull towards him . thats because its in the inherent nature of man to share joys with others. so when a rishi(for example) get the highest imaginable joy(brahmananada or premaananda) he natuarally becomes eager to make other peole taste that same bliss. although we do not represent the highest number in terms of species , there's no denying that it is we who are the most intelligent . as everything in this world is for a purpose why do you think this intelligence was given to us ? to make atom bombs ? green revolution or inventing birth control measures ? NO !!!! the purpose of this intelligence is to realise the unity (god) also speaking from a monistic spiritual tradition( advaita vedanta ) god is not inclined towards us as such . there is nothing but perfect unity of wich we are also a part.but we cant realise this due to ignorance .its only when you talk in dualistic terms( bhakti marg) that god assumes a personal nature and demands love from us . in advaita it's we who want liberation from this reccuring distress and unhappiness and turn to self realization. theres something like " ruchinam vaichitra " . a man choses his path according to his nature . it is said that if animals would have had religion his god would also be a super animal . as we cnnot comprehend the infinite we tend to percieve him in a way similar to us . an emotional person would chose bhakti , an intellctual gyan marg etc etc . it all depends on the nature of the person . the truth doesnt change .each religion contains a specific part of the toatal truth , not the entire one. that is also why all such religions exists. they all have something to contribute to this earth. when we ask why he created the world we are rather interested to know why we exist ? well , its hard to answer . we are all parts and parcels of the supreme conciousness called god by some . remember we are not the physical body but the soul . its like the ocean and drops of water . in terms of quality both drops of water (ouselves) is identical with the ocean( god) but quantitively they are never same . thats why the ocean can cause tsunami( destroy ) but a drop cant. now the main target is to realise that we are all nothing but parts of the same supreme. we are not realising this due to our ignorance or maya that keeps us believing that we are our body etc etc. and over all this the karmic law is constantly working according to our karma . at the time of death we get the next birth according to our karmaphal. this might be a human birth or animal birth . after traveeling through millions of bodies in this fashion we finally get a human birth which is a chance to realize our true nature , to see god . now most people waste this oppurtunity and some dont. one might ask , since when were we conditioned with maya like this ? this is not possible to explain. as we are within maya we cannot state as yet when it all started. what happens after we get moksh or liberation from this false illusion ? we realize the supreme and go back to our etenal kingdom of god. and this world is creation of god as a lila. how can you know his wish ?this universe is also but a part of god . he himself projects a part of himself as the manifested cosmos. after a cetain time this manifested cosmos become unmanifested and then it is called pralaya. after pralaya all things exist into a dormant state of existence and resurface again at the time of the next creation. this never ending process of creation and destruction is known as kaal chakra. this was just one explanation. the advaita vedanta maintains that there is no creation in the first place . there is absolutely nothing except brahman or god. then how came we see and feel this world? that is maya . when you step over a rope in the dark room you mistake it to be a snake but realize moments later that it was merely a rope. but for that few moments when you felt frightened it was a proper snake in all its respects. it was real for those few moments , isnt it ? similarly altough there is nothing called universe or earth we think and feel its existence beacuse of maya or illusion. only thing is brhaman or conciousness. once you realize that through sadhana you realize the supreme.

what was that ? a poetry ????

excellent !! a wise person after a long time .

thats the body you are speaking of .its the body that takes a new birth.

true that there is no strict way to identify a liberated soul . a person's behaviour becomes 'abnormal' by material standards . his behaviour might become like that of a mad person or a small baby. whatever may be the symptoms one thing is certain that their behaviour no longer conforms to the mainstream society. perhaps another crucial point to be noted is that such individuals would generally not speak anything other than god . their mind becomes filled with god and that naturally reflects in their speech also . they wont be able to discuss non spiritual things for long. its also true that the followers of ramakrishna , ramana etc have accepted them as liberated on grounds of faith and sentiment . but isnt that the case with all spiritual persons on earth ? without those two virtues no one can step into a spiritual path . but one thing to be taken in account is initial scepticism about ones would be guru is essential . as it helps to assertain his genuinity . after this surrender is necessary . humanity is always striving for peace and happiness . but whatever happiness they are getting are tinged with immidiate sorrow . all thorugh ones life he faces one sorrow after the other . and that continues in the next life also . so i think its about being liberated from this recurring dukkha and enter into a world of constant peace (assuming that dukkha continues into the next birth as well ) . thats also what buddha preached.

what does that mean ??!! no !!! none of us are !! a liberated soul wound'nt roam about internet at all !!!!!!!!

i heard that this project was stopped by marxist government of bengal which speciallises in all such activities like creating obstacles etc. but as the required finance was already collected iskcon decided to built another temple instead . this is nowhere compared with the vedic planetorium . its blue and gold in colour and visually really bad . it looks like a blue vatican or victoria memorial in calcutta . more of a fictional middle eastern palace than a temple. as per my knowledge the ground work thats going on in mayapur is for this blue temple . i would like to know whether the first plan is still active or has been set aside by this newer blue version.