Narasingh

I'm sorry, it was clear that they were talking specifically about the female gopis of Vrindavana, not any non-directional vague concept. Kirtanananda clearly said that to become a gopi is a most exalted existence and that it may take many lifetimes to get there. He had the understanding (as well as the others in the room) that that is the Ultimate Goal of Life. And "rag-tag"? These persons had great fortune. Look at them! They participated in some of the first Harinam Sankirtans in the western world! This is a relisheable activity by the likes of Shiva, Suka, Narada, and Brahma and here they are taking part in it, being born as mlecchas and yavanas, cow-eater, with no hint of any past sukrti. We must acknowledge the sanctity of their position then! I've seen in numerous missions how magnanimous the Acharya is and gradually the magnanimity decends down to a more selective group. I think we all agree that those who received association with Srila Prabhupada in the early years were very fortunate. They were given insight rarely to be had. Much the same way as Sonic Yogi doesn't recall it ever being discussed that Prabhupada was a cowherd boy in the height of ISKCON yet some early devotees made their offerings in such a direct way. Watch at 9:30+ minutes in <embed src="http://krishnatube.com/nvplayer.swf?config=http://krishnatube.com/nuevo/econfig.php?key=adc7d7281af83d139641" wmode="transparent" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" height="380" width="470">

It was obviously instilled in these devotee's understanding that they are actually feminine, that they are Gopi, or that their ultimate goal of existence is to become Gopi.

This is one of the first documentaries of Srila Prabhupada's mission. Pay attention to the way the members speak at around 9:30+ on the counter. I have to wonder what may or may not be veiled. I was looking for this for awhile. I'd like to hear Babhru Prabhu's response to this: If Srila Prabhupada's first mission members were already speaking like this, wouldn't this be the most indicitive of his mood? <embed src="http://krishnatube.com/nvplayer.swf?config=http://krishnatube.com/nuevo/econfig.php?key=adc7d7281af83d139641" wmode="transparent" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" height="380" width="470">

Well, I guess that pretty much sums it up. Mahaprabhu is saying....well is there anything I need to add? Sonic Yogi, I think the last time I quoted you, you pretty much said the same thing. The next question is... If one were to propose that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya rasa, is that a bad, or undesirable thing? Is that not sensitive to Guru, Sadhu and Sashtra? If Srila Prabhupada openly allowed his disciples to offer praise to him as a cowherd boy, and obviously derived pleasure from it, wouldn't it be feasible to allow his disciples to continue doing so?

Your last sentence here explains it all, and I think you will find agreement across the board here.

NitaiS, I have a difficult time with that as well. I'm pretty sure it is not supported by sastra. Although madhurya rasa is "ontologically" more in depth, neither Gopis in madhurya rasa nor Gopas in sakhya rasa can have the level of fulfillment in Krsna's life as Srimati Radharani. Take Candravali for instance. She is considered to be the next major principle Gopi, the ultimate anti-party and (for lack of better words) still "falls short". Vrndavan revolves around Vrndavaneshvari. Thus, while Gopas have some level of "shortcoming" in Krsna's ultimate satisfaction, the same rings true for Gopis. However, it is these "shortcomings" which are the endearment to Sri Sri Radha-Govinda. All in all the eternal residents of Vrndavan are part and parcel of Sri Sri Radha Govinda and serve to augment their Lilas. Their activities serve to increase the Love between the Divine Couple. From this standpoint, everything is perfect!

NitaiS, Its not that their spiritual progress has been halted, it is that they are in a mutually fully satisfied position. Take Gopa Kumar for instance. He became fully satisfied with his position. When one reaches the stages of prema, Krsna is fully pleased with them, and reciprocates with His devotees in such a way as to ensure their complete satisfaction. But it is true and accepted by Gaudiya Philosophy that Rasaraj is completed only by Mahabhava and that somehow or other, all are serving under Her Grace. Srimati Radharani is the fullest extent. Shrila Shridhara Maharaj has asserted that Srimati Radharani is such and that all other camps are serving according to Her Desire under Yogamaya.

Srila B.P. Puri Maharaja's discussion in this pamphlet harmonizes this idea: <o:p></o:p>

In essence this is true.

Sonic Yogi, your perspective brings up the natural question, "If all things are complete in madhurya bhava and manjari bhava, and they are of the highest value, why are there any other bhavas in Goloka?" The spiritual world is full of rasa. Again, we must be careful to not see this from a cost vs. value perspective. Srila Prabhupada was explicit in this regard, as each rasik thinks their bhava is most suitable for them.

Sonic Yogi, with all respect: It has been revealed that each of the different "camps" of rasiks appreciate the other camps as better in certain ways. This is the harmony, some "jealosy" arises as the gopis see Krsna head off with his friends to tend the calves. Yet they are situated as gopis. It is not all one, but statements like yours indicating that they are different stages of development, that dasya is inferior thus needing to upgrade to something better are dangerous statements. Krsna likes His cowherd boy friends. I would venture to say, "He wouldn't have it any other way". Vrndavan without Madhumangala or Mandalibhadra or Subala or Shridhama, or Gopa Kumar??? I think you are missing the dynamics of it and looking at it from a cost vs. value perspective.

What I mean is... Unless the devotee (to whom Srila Prabhupada said he was a cowherd boy and who was not interested in sakhya-rasa then or now) is on the liberated platform of rasa (being not interested in sakhya-rasa) then how is it a validating argument? Afterall, upon being blessed with bhava we will know which rasa we are attracted to. Until then, my consideration of what is more attractive may stem from my material associative reasoning... ie. , "as a young boy, I think its cool to hear of Balaram pounding Pralambasura into the ground." or "as a young girl, I find the gopis so beautiful!" If the devotee is on the liberated platform, consider my exception to your statement muted.

I'm sorry Sukhada, I don't see this as a valid address, unless the devotee to whom Prabhupada said that to is a liberated, eternally situated devotee. The underlying flow tho this whole conversation is that, as Grace descends, a devotee finds themselves enraptured by a particular bhava and rasa and it is not up to them what "party" they serve with, but that they are accepted into lila and view their position as being their element. They are fully satisfied with the position they have, whether a tree, a flower, an elder, a friend, or a damsel.

Now, I'm sure there is a more authoritative answer than that... In your case (as well as mine) it can even be, "I don't know"

The Gaudiya Conception culminates with the feeling that Srimati Radharani is the only true happiness for Krsna, conjugally speaking. It is not only accepted, but appreciated. Krsna (Rasaraj) is complete with Radha (Mahabhava). Thus, in the interest of the complete spiritual pleasure of the Divine Couple, the devotee, following in the line of Svarupa Damodara, Rupa Goswami, Bhaktivinode, Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada, does not entertain the idea of anything other than arrangements for the pleasure of the Divine Couple. As the book shows, each camp, at least sakhya and manjari have their particular associates who are interested in the welfare of the Divine Couple. Thus, a sakha can assist in arrangements as well as a manjari. It looks as if you are suggesting that somehow Prabhupada has not been glorified because sakhya rasa doesn't afford intimate conjugal relations with Krsna. </td></tr><tr><td style="vertical-align: top;"></td></tr></tbody></table>

Gaura Hari!!!

He could have said whatever he wanted. The fact that he said what he said is what this book is based on. I've just read through 1/2 of it. In the interest of a constructive discussion I would suggest reading it. One of my favorite parts of the book is : page 9 Babhru Prabhu has initiated his posit on this firm foundation of subjectivity. After that, he moves on to show how Prabhupada may be reasonably seen in sakhya rasa.

It has been mentioned before, in this thread, that Srila Shridhara Maharaj gives room for possibilities. And as you put it this can be harmonized by the disciples inherent bhava acting as a lens. I have mentioned before that I believe that even if certain members of the greater Vaishnava community may have a difficult time accepting this notion, it may serve a greater purpose to publicly accept it. That purpose being, we must recognize that we cant manipulate our position in the service of the Divine Couple. As Prabhupada is sakha and Saraswati Thakura is manjari, we have to understand that a position will be bestowed upon us (when and if we can be so deserving) depending only upon the sweet will of the Divine Couple, not that by becoming initiated by a Guru of a certain camp in sadhana, one is automatically and mathematically bestowed entrance into the direct siddha svarup camp of the Guru. Divine Grace must be held above all in our quest for the true nourishment of our soul.

Nice

It is not that they don't mix. For me this has never been a question. Mixing is different than being. Sugar and Milk make wonderful things, but Sugar is not Milk. This is the "paradox". Perhaps what we have just witnessed recently (being materially manifest in the line of Mahaprabhu, Shri Rupa, and Siddhanta Saraswati) is just that... the mixing of Sugar and Milk.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Prabhupada wants to be treated as if he were God himself. It was the humility and dedication to his Guru's and Krsna's words which has endeared him to so many. He is that "devotee who cleans the toilet bowls". And you, yourself said, "I'd rather bow and give my respects to a devotee." Your bowing is all that anyone else is doing right now on this thread. That is all. They are just giving their respects to a devotee who has dedicated his existence to Sri Hari, Guru, and Vaishnava.

We must keep ourselves from this way of thinking. We must become pure then we will know the decision to be had. Don't just chant your rounds, but chant them earnestly, with great need and desire. Our current problem is there are no global governing structures which are completely Dharmic. And even if there happens to be a war, Maha Bhagavatas still find themselves on opposite sides. As "primate" says:

Dear "mud", you have taken my statements out of context. My original statement is as follows: The paradox that I was speaking of was not that Srila Prabhupada does not want to serve under his Guru, but that if he truly wants to serve closely, then how is it that he is in a separate camp (yes, even priya-narma sakhas are one step distinguished from manjaris)? Working together wonderfully does not imply being in the same camp. However, the more closely connected one is in dasa, dasa anudasa seva, should imply the same camp. Can it be that the gift of his (Srila Prabhupada's) Guru to him was service in the camp of the cowherds?

Here is the paradox. How is it that, while Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati is a manjari, Srila Prabhupada may or may not be a sakha. If there is one thing more certain than whether or not Srila Prabhupada is a sakha, it is that his ultimate desire is the service of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. Is it feasible to consider that Srila Prabhupada doesn't really want to serve Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in the spiritual world so he is a sakha instead? (I think not). The crux of the matter is if Srila Prabhupada is a sakha and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati is a manjari, what hope do you have of manipulating your position in eternal Lila? Manipulation is a product of exploitation, which is vehemently disposed of by our Gaudiya Parampara in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. In a sense, even if this booklet is wrong, it is still the right thing to preach, since it will shake up the belief that we can manipulate ourselves into Lila. It has the potential to encourage Saranagati which looks towards descending Grace. I am looking forward to reading your booklet, Babhru Prabhu!