Guruvani

I would agree with that. When the marginal jiva becomes fully integrated into the activities of the internal potency (devotional service and giving pleasure to Krishna), then how can any traces of that marginal condition remain? When the jiva attains svarupa-siddhi in a positive and progressive rasa with Krishna, then like a seed grows into a plant and no longer is a seed, the jiva evolves into a full-fledged eternal associate of Krishna non-different from the eternal parshadas of Krishna with the same infallible position. Hence, there is no chance to become ensnared by maya in a situation where maya is absolutely absent and without influence.

"Living entitiy" is not a term that is ever used to refer to the eternal associates of Krishna. As described in the purport above it refers to the spirit sparks emananting from the brahmajyoti of Krishna. The perfected souls with spiritual forms are non-different from their bodies, just as Lord Krishna is non different from his body. As such the associates of Krishna are not spirit sparks. They are spiritual forms like Radha and Krishna. We have to learn the difference between spirit spark living entities and living beings that are spiritual forms just like Radha and Krishna. Neither shastra or Srila Prabhupada ever refer to the devotees of Krishna as "living entities". Living entities are just that - an entity, not a spiritual form as a gopi or gopa in Goloka Vrindavan. When the liberated soul attains a spiritual body in service to Krishna, then they are non-different from that spiritual form. That is the absolute nature of self-realized souls and their spiritual forms in Vaikuntha or Goloka. Devotees of Krishna in Goloka are not spirit sparks. They are evolved into spiritual bodies like Radha and Krishna. This is the result of being blessed and embued with hladini shakti. A raw, naked spirit spark without a spiritual body is what is referred to in the term "living entity". As such, there is no Supersoul in the heart of living beings in the spiritual world. Paramatma is a temporary form of Krishna that occurs only when and if there is a material manfestation where numberless living entities are impregnated. In the spiritual world there is no Paramatma. Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 7.4 purport,

The jiva cannot ever fully embody the internal potency. That is Radharani who does that. The jivashakti can only embody a small fragment of the internal potency and represent one aspect of the internal potency Sri Radha.

I am not anti-rivik. I personally believe that Srila Prabhupada was agreeable that the GBC could perform ritvik initiations even after his departure. I also believe that Srila Prabhupada was also agreeable that his senior sannyasi disciples could also perform as diksha gurus if and when the situation was ripe. I think many ISKCON men jumped the gun, dumped the ritvik system and made a mess out of ISKCON in the process. I think that Srila Prabhupada would have agreed to both situations according to time, circumstance and qualifications. Unfortunately, many men got in too deep before they were qualified and that makes all the more strong the case for the ritvik system.

I would just like to add that the jiva is by quality already internal potency. So, the idea that all jivas do not become internal potency is a little confusing in-as-much as the jiva is actually already internal potency by constitution. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport. The jiva assumes a marginal position according to the will of Krishna. By nature the jiva is already of the internal potency of Krishna. The internal potency takes the marginal position unless and untill the jiva attains svarupa-siddhi. Then, the real nature as a fragment of internal potency becomes fully manifest.

Yes, lila or seva. The Mahatmas (not to be confused with jivatmas) come with the Lord to teach and preach. As such, they play the role of a marginal jiva and serve Krishna by giving him the chance to preach as if to a conditioned soul. Arjuna is a prime example. Uddhava is another. Krishna preaches to his parshadas who are playing the role of marginal, conditioned jivas. It is for our benefit. They are not really marginal jivas. (but they appear to be) Mahaprabhu taught Sanatan Goswami in the same way. Sanatan was inquiring as if he were an ordinary marginal jiva. He wasn't. He played the part for the sake of the fallen, conditioned souls. In the material world Sanatan was in the marginal position. (apparently) In Goloka he is securely within the internal potency of Krishna.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport. kṛṣṇera svarūpa, āra śakti-traya-jñāna yāńra haya, tāńra nāhi kṛṣṇete ajñāna I think this purport explains the point I am trying to make. The marginal potency are called as such due to the conditions. There are no marginal conditions in Goloka in-as-much as there is no exposure to the material energy. So, I stand by my position that there is no marginal position for the jivas in Goloka. The jivas in Goloka are within the internal energy, not the marginal position. If associates of Krishna come with him to the material world then they enter that marginal situation with exposure to the material energy of Lord Krishna. In Goloka that situation does not exist.

In my previous post I have shown that Krishna can and does convert potencies according to his will.

I don't care what you are trying to say with these quotes, but being in illusion is a falldown for the living entity and Srila Prabhupada refers to fallen conditioned souls many times in his books. This so-called class in Japan is probably a fraud hoax quote. If you can verify that quote in the Vedabase then please do. Otherwise, I reject the quote as a fabricated fraud. I wouldn't put it past the sleepervadis to manufacture false quotes of Srila Prabhupada to support their fairytale myth. The concept of fallen souls is a constant and consistent theme in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. This theory that there really is no such thing as a falldown for the jiva contradicts many, many statements in the books of Srila Prabhpada. I don't buy it on the basis of some unverifiable quote that I have never seen in any authoritative resource of Prabhupada teachings.

What I think we need to understand about the purport above is that Srila Prabhupada specifically mentions Uddhava in terms of his "descending with the Lord Krishna to this material world". When associates of the Lord descend into the material world they enter the marginal zone because when they are in the material world they are also subjected to the material atmosphere and as such are at that time between the material and spiritual world.(tatastha) My point all along is that in GOLOKA Vrindavan this material atmosphere or situation does not exist and as such there is no marginal conditions existing there. What we are debating in the fall-from-goloka fairytale is that in Goloka there is no material circumstances or surroundings and as such NO marginal conditions existing there. Even before you presented this purport I was also thinking that when associates of the Lord come to the material world to assist the Lord in his pastimes that they are very similar to the marginal jivas except for the fact that they are self-realized and fully protected by the Lord. I think the main point Srila Prabhupada was making is that when Krishna's associates come with him to the material world they require special protection from Krishna due to the fact that they are also exposed to the external energy of Krishna at that time. When they return to Goloka, the marginal conditions do not exist and there is no exposure to the external material energy.

What I think we need to understand about the purport above is that Srila Prabhupada specifically mentions Uddhava in terms of his "descending with the Lord Krishna to this material world". When associates of the Lord descend into the material world they enter the marginal zone because when they are in the material world they are also subjected to the material atmosphere and as such are at that time between the material and spiritual world.(tatastha) My point all along is that in GOLOKA Vrindavan this material atmosphere or situation does not exist and as such there is no marginal condition existing there. What we are debating in the fall-from-goloka fairytale is that in Goloka there is no material circumstances or surroundings and as such NO marginal conditions existing there. Even before you presented this purport I was also thinking that when associates of the Lord come to the material world to assist the Lord in his pastimes that they are very similar to the marginal jivas except for the fact that they are self-realized and fully protected by the Lord. I think the main point Srila Prabhupada was making is that when Krishna's associates come with him to the material world they require special protection from Krishna due to the fact that they are also exposed to the external energy of Krishna at that time. When they return to Goloka, the marginal conditions do not exist and there is no exposure to the external material energy.

The only war you need to fight is a war with your own mind and your own fairytale imaginations that you are trying to pass off as the Gaudiya siddhanta. Before you go to defeat something, you first have to be on the right side of the fight. You aren't.

So, Vedanta must mean "the end of Know"?

Tatastha shakti only exists between the material amd spiritual potencies. There is no marginal tatastha shakti in Goloka. Marginal means that it is between the two energies. That plane is the Viraja. The jivas of the material world were manifested at that marginal position by the glance of Maha-Vishnu. They didn't fall from Goloka nor are they in Goloka dreaming. They are in the material world dreaming. They are very confused. They don't study the shastra. They write their own.

Sri Isopanishad 17 purport, <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.</td></tr></tbody></table>

This is typical sleepvervadi concoction. There is not one shastric reference in the above post. This is what the sleepervadis do. They concoct, distort, twist and manipulate to extrapolate myths and fairytales and inflate their false ego. These guys aren't fooling anybody but themselves. Their fairytale castle of dreamervadis has already fallen like a house of cards but they are just in denial.

At the time it was just great entertainment for me to watch the "shock and awe" campaign. I was glued to CNN for days. Some people like movies or sitcoms. I like a good invasion of a country. It was popcorn and soda pop time for me. But, watching the situation there now is very depressing and sad. The Sunni-Shia rivalry in Iraq is a good example of how screwed-up and retarded is this Islamic cult.

So, I guess having radical, maniacal Ayatollahs running the show is better than a secular strongarm leader? Personally, I think that strongarm secular leaders like Purvez Musharaf of Pakistan is the best option for the middle east wasteland of radical Islamic fanatics. It appears that actually that Iraq would have been better off with Saddam Hussein running the circus. As far as whether or not that was safe for the rest of the world, well, there are no easy answers for that predicament. In hindsight, it appears that we made a mistake in invading Iraq. The solution to the problem appears to be more disasterous than the problem. We should have just bombed Saddam into allowing close UN supervision of his weapons program. The full-blown invasion has backfired.

I remember hearing a story that one disciple of Srila Prabhupada, I think his name was Paramahansa Swami was preaching to and cultivating the Prince and Princess of Iran (son and daughter of the Shah) just before the Shah was overthrown. I heard he was teaching them Hatha-yoga and also slipping in some KC with his preaching. Then, I guess the Shah's karma got discombobulated and he soon lost his throne and a lot of his stuff. So, you say the Shah was a bad guy, but his kids were actually learning about KC from a direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Sounds like he had some pious credits somewhere in the stockpile.

Don't believe everything you read in a quick Google search. Go deeper Grasshopper. Go below the surface and the false front men put up when they are addressing the UN. There is more to this maniac than what you read from his UN address.

Don't get your panties all in a bunch. You are the only one in here that thinks the idiot is worth talking about.

I don't think that talking about this asura is a spiritual discussion. It is asura-katha. I can't appreciate it at all.

I don't think they really have. I think that they have a few statements that they use to extrapolate that conclusion. Part of their confusion is that they think svarupa always means "eternal form". Well, that is also a misconception. Svarupa in the sense of constitutional position means : svarūpa — having the nature; CC Adi 4.78 svarūpa — the real nature; CC Adi 4.86 svarūpa — nature; CC Adi 4.98 So, it means our nature is to serve Krishna. That is inherent in the soul. It does NOT means eternal spiritual form other than the form of a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair. That spark has a form as such. That is the actual svarupa of the jiva as far as form goes unless and until he attaines a spiritual body in Goloka in the pastimes of Krishna. I don't think they have produced a single quote that supports the sleepervadi concoction. All they have is some quotes they abuse to extrapolate out their faitytale myth.

Sri Isopanishad 17 purport, <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.</td></tr></tbody></table>