Guruvani

I ain't arguing that or claiming to practice raganuga-sadhana. What I am trying to say with this topic is that the fall-from-goloka dreamer vadis think they someday they are just going to wake up in Goloka by practicing vaidhi-sadhana without ever practicing or attaining to raganuga sadhana. The dreamervadi theory ingnores and negates raganuga sadhana with their fairytale theory because they think they already have a spiritual form in Goloka and an established rasa with Krishna so all they need to do is wake up and realize that. Well, that theory is wrong. One must choose a parshada of Krishna to be his role model and practice raganuga sadhana to develop a relationship with Krishna in that mood. It's not already there sleeping in Goloka. It has to be cultivated from the bhakti-lata-bija. If you don't get the bhakti-lata-bija and cultivate that through raganuga bhakti then you can never attain a spiritual form or a rasa with Krishna. The fall-from-goloka fairytale has all sorts of apa-siddhantic effects. That is my point with this topic.

But, sir, none of the quotes of Srila Prabhupada that you keep repeating over and over again day after day week after week month after month say that. That statement is your own little concoction. It is not shastric. It has simply sprouted like a mushroom in your mind. It is a lie and a distortion. That will make you or anyone else happy? No. It never will.

Yes Vigraha you are dreaming. But, you are in the material world dreaming, not in Goloka dreaming. In Goloka nobody dreams. It is just wrong to say so. Why must dreaming be done from Goloka Mr. Vigraha? Why can't dreaming be done in dreamland - the material world? You are one confused lad. Your ego is your big problem. You need to stop defending your ego and false pride and accept the shastric siddhanta without adding your fairytales to it. You are not doing any service to Srila Prabhupada by preaching your homemade fairytale. You are insulting him and all the predecessor acharyas with your fall-from-goloka rant.

Krishna can and does convert potencies from one platform to another. Srila Prabhupada explains in this purport. The Jiva is actually internal potency by constitution. The Jiva can develop the full potential in devotional service. The marginal condition of the jiva can be evolved to the full potential of the internal energy that the jiva actually generates from. Sri Isopanishad 5 purport,

Srila Prabhupada could see that even though these hippies from the sixties were trying to read his books they just couldn't get the message. So, he resorted to allegory and encouraged the fairytale because he was coming to the conclusion that these derelicts just couldn't understand what he was writing in his books.

But, my friend, I have read other things he has said about wiping Israel off the face of the Earth. One snippet does not properly explain this man. He has denied the Jewish holocaust and said that Israel should be annihilated. Hey, I don't agree with the UN and the USA and Britain giving the Jews the country of Israel after WWII either, but now that it is done I think the best thing to do is just deal with it like human beings. Maybe the Palestinians deserve better? Maybe they don't. Their collective karma has deprived them of their homeland and now they live like refugees. Karma is a bitch. Deal with it.

He is a religious zealot that is full of himself and suffering from delusions of spiritual grandeur that Islam is the only genuine religion in the world. Maybe the USA is evil. But, these Muslim zealots are also evil and their way of dealing with the great satan is equally as evil as any evil in the world.

But, I already know what the fall-from-goloka vadis are going to say in reply to this purport by Srila Prabhupada. Sri Isopanishad 17 purport, <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.</td></tr></tbody></table> They will say that there is some letter from Srila Prabhupada that says that before the living entity was in the brahmajyoti he fell from Goloka whilst having pastimes with Krishna. You can't defeat them with shastra and siddhanta. Why? Because they don't want to know the truth. They want to believe in the fairytale no matter what. Why? Because it's too much for their pride and false ego to bear to face the facts that they are wrong and are preaching bogus siddhanta and propagating fairytales. At this point they are more concerned about their image and their prestige than they are shastric siddhanta. It's ISKCON party line. Tow the line or get blacklisted by the GBC. It's nothing short of pathetic.

This is the kind of neophyte ISKCON sentimentalism that fosters the fall-from-goloka fairytale. However, if these people would ever bother to read the books of Srila Prabhupada they would find out what spiritual knowledge actually is: Sri Isopanishad 17 purport, So, according to the shastra and the acharyas the fallen living entities fall from the brahmajyoti effulgence of Lord Krishna. The difference between impersonalism and devotion is that the devotees know that the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of Krishna. The ISKCON myth-mongers accuse us of being impersonalists because we keep with shastric siddhanta that the fallen jivas are coming from the brahmajyoti as Srila Prabhupada explains in this verse of Sri Isopanisad. We don't forget that the brahmajyoti is Krishna's effulgence. But, they still accuse us of being mayavada. It is plainly explained here in black and white that fallen souls are coming from the brahmajyoti. Keep your blinders on kiddies. You don't want to see the bright auspiciousness of the brahmajyoti.

The problem is that the fall-from-goloka fairytale is not just the brainchild of some goofball on this forum making noise. It is the official ISKCON siddhanta backed up by GBC commissioned position papers compiled by some of ISKCON best and brightest. It is NOT the version or teachings of Srila Prabhupada. It IS a manufactured fairytale that has been adopted and supported by the ISKCON GBC and most of the ISKCON gurus. I would hope that at least a few of the ISKCON gurus know better. If thinkers like Sivarama Swami and Bhakti Caru Maharaja don't know any better than the official GBC version then that is just a shame -just a shame. But, as I have said before, too many of the ISKCON leaders are so immersed and embroiled in ISKCON politics that they don't really have the mindset or the focus to actually study the shastra deeply to understand advanced concepts of Gaudiya siddhanta. They linger in the fairytale because they don't really study the books properly. I guess Srila Prabhupada realized that many of his disciples weren't capable of that so he just spoke in parables and allegory for the benefit of the shastric challenged people of the western world. Maybe he didn't foresee that someday some people might actually read his books?

Good point. I wish I would have thought of that.

Thats always good to hear. There are many devotees that can't really admit that chanting the Maha-mantra is nectarean and blissfull. I sometimes wonder why not? I think it always has something to do with past attainments in previous lifes. You see some devotees that chant 16 rounds a day for years and they still look morose and depressed. I can chant four rounds and feel like I just bathed in the fountain of youth. I don't chant as much as I should. I just gave up on half-hearted efforts. When the time comes and I am ready to commit with full determination then I will renew my vows and maybe take formal diksha again. I have some serious doubts about my proxy ritvik initiation in ISKCON. I am not so sure that the representative who gave it to me was really capable and able. He turned out to be on drugs and engaging in sahajiya affairs. Then he was murdered by an irate follower. Maybe that is why I am a sahajiya too? Maybe I deserved a pseudo-proxy initiation from a sahajiya? Hopefully, someday I can do better than that.

Ultimately, the debate is not just about "origins" that some devotees say is a discussion that should not be researched very well. The debate is about siddhanta. The debate is about defending the integrity of Lord Krishna and his pure devotees. The fall-from-goloka fairytale is not about origins as much as it is about twisting, distorting and manipulating the instructions of Srila Prabhupada to propose an erroneous conclusion that contradicts and assaults the Gaudiya siddhanta and shastric presentations. So, we are not going to let the discussion get derailed or sidelined over accusations that it is a useless and taboo debate about origins. Why should origins be taboo? Actually, the origins debate is taking place because of neophyte lack of understanding of shakti-traya-jnana that Jiva Goswami says is important in understanding Lord Krishna. With even an elementary understanding of shakti-traya-jnana the whole fall-from-goloka fairytale crumbles into a falacious myth that that has been manufactured by ISKCON neophytes.

It's quite amuzing to see the smokescreen they throw up by posting a lot of irrelevant quotes as if the quotes somehow support their position and prove the fall from goloka fairytale. It's just a smokescreen so that we cannot actually figure out what they are saying. They are trying to defeat Mahaprabhu's teachings with quotes from the books. How ridiculous is that?

You obviously do no know the shastric siddhanta. Impersonalism is the fall-from-goloka fairytale that is very impersonal towards Lord Krishna and accusing him of not protecting his devotees and allowing them to fall down from Goloka to become worms in stool. That idea is worse than impersonalism. It belittles and deprecates Lord Krishna. Lord Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible. The fall-from-goloka fairytale says that they are. Somebody has to be wrong.

I replied to this article on dadavats but the editor refused to publish my comment on the article. Apparently, they are also party to the fall-from-goloka myth that we are constitutionally something more than spirit sparks in the glance of Maha-Vishnu. (meant for serving Krishna) He attacks my article by saying: then he says: He apparently didn't even read the quote from CC that I used: “Sri Caitanya Caritamrita - Madhya 19.218 TRANSLATION “It is the nature of santa-rasa that not even the smallest intimacy exists. Rather, knowledge of impersonal Brahman and localized Paramatma is prominent. PURPORT Because of an impersonal impression of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee in the santa-rasa relationship worships the impersonal Brahman or localized aspect of the Absolute Truth (Paramatma). He does not develop a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna.” So, he is accusing me of saying what actually Mahaprabhu taught to Sanatan Goswami. He is trying to say that Paramatma realization is an intimate relationship with Krishna. It is not. So, he is obvioulsy confused and ignoring the shastric facts and trying to overturn the teachings of Mahaprabhu. It's all part of the fall-from-goloka fairytale that we all fell from Goloka in an intimate loving relationship with Krishna as a gopi or gopa etc. These guys and their fall-from-goloka fairytale are already defeated by shastra and the acharyas. They are struggling to keep the fairytale alive even at the cost of deprecating the teachings of Mahaprabhu. In time, the fairytale proponents are going to end up looking like idiots as the fairytale myth gets exposed. It has already been exposed. But, these guys just put their hands over their eyes and refuse to see the truth right in front of them. They do that by accusing me of manufacturing the statements and teachings of Mahaprabhu. If anyone reads his article objectively they cannot but see that he is blaming me for what Mahaprabhu has given.

Despite numerous such quotes and statements from shastra and the acharyas, the "fall-from-goloka" theorists keep saying that in fact these pure devotees of Krishna do abuse their minute free will and choose to give up Krishna for maya which is nowhere to be seen or found even in the imagination of the Vrajavasis. They could potentially misuse their free will. That is the meaning of love. Love means choosing to serve Krishna. But, free will doesn't necessitate that a pure devotee could potentially abuse that free will and leave service to Krishna. Would Bill Gates ever give up his wealth and fortune to become a homeless beggar in the street? No! Neither would any pure devotee of Krishna ever give up the nectar and bliss of devotional service to Krishna to become an artificial enjoyer in the material world. How could any enlightened self-realized soul choose stool from an option to take stool or a valuable touchstone gem? Self-realized, liberated souls are more intelligent than that.

So, that is why the raganuga bhaktas are not always found to be strictly following the regulative principles. Chapter 16: Spontaneous Devotion Further Described If a natural attraction is there for a particular parshada of Krishna then the raganuga bhakti has already blossomed and there is no reason to deny that or artifically repress something that should be embraced and cultivated as the key to Vrindavan Dhama. Vaidhi bhakti cannot take one to Goloka. If after 40 years of hearing and chanting a devotee hasn't found a role model in Vrindavan, then what has he got to show for 40 years of practice? Generic sadhana bhakti?

Chapter 16: Spontaneous Devotion Further Described So, the standard for adopting raganuga-sadhana is very high. However, even ISKCON gurus who are supposed to taking so many fallen souls back to Godhead don't even have a clue as to the importance of raganuga-sadhana. One of the differences between ISKCON and some of the classic Gaudiya lineages is that in the classic lineages one was not expected to become a pure devotee WITHOUT raganuga-sadhana. In ISKCON you are supposed to be a pure devotee before you consider raganuga-sadhana. But, originally, Mahaprabhu never made such restrictions but advised all sincere devotees to begin the process of raganuga-sadhana. The ISKCON policy seems to deprive the devotee of any right or access to spontaneous service. It appears to simply shackle the devotee to vaidhi-sadhana forever. When does a devotee ever consider himself free from material contamination? How can a devotee advance beyond vaidhi-bhakti without accepting the process of raganuga-sadhana? Vaidhi-bhakti alone cannot attain the goal. Raganuga sadhana is required to develop the Vraja rasa. It just seems a little peculiar that a devotee is expected to become perfect with vaidhi-bhakti alone, when shastra says clearly that Goloka cannot be obtained through vaidhi-bhakti. Maybe that is why Srila Prabhupada gives the qualifier: So, go figure. The raganuga bhaktas don't follow the regulative principles very strictly, yet the vaidhi-bhaktas do and are not as elevated as the raganuga bhaktas. So, there is a mixed message for both classes of devotees. For those who are not eager to accept raganuga-sadhana, then they are encouraged to keep up with the vaidhi process. For those who are partial to the raganuga process they aren't bound very rigidly to the regulative principles.

Good point. Does Radha not have free will? Did Krishna take away her free will? Does not Subal, Sudhama and Sridham Sakha not have free will? Do they ever misuse it? Or, do they use free will in love for Krishna to serve him in spontaneous ways according to their free will? Free will can be perfected. Free will doesn't mean that doubts and hesitation are always there in the hearts of Krishna's pure devotees. When free will is perfected, the pure devotee only uses that free will to choose in what way he will spontaneously serve Krishna in endless novel ways. The concept that free will is an eternal risk of falling down is just wrong. There is NO chance that a pure devotee of Krishna can neglect him or reject him at any time in eternal existance. Otherwise, what is the meaning of perfection? Otherwise, there is no meaning to perfection in devotional service.

After more than 40 years, ISKCON as a whole still has no idea or understanding of raganuga-bhakti which is mandatory in cultivating sadhana. ISKCON knows nothing beyond the fours regs and some vaidhi-bhakti? They think that you must become perfect before you can aspire to even practice raganuga-sadhana. Raganuga sadhana is mandatory and indespensible on the path of vaidhi-bhakti, yet ISKCON preachers don't even mention the importance of the raganuga sadhana. Is raganuga sadhana supposed to be waited on until one attains perfection in vaidhi-bhakti? Can one attain perfection with vaidhi-sadhana alone without the practice of raganuga-sadhana? Or, do vaidhi-bhaktas get stuck in vaidhi-bhakti unless and until they accept and practice raganuga-sadhana?

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport, Does anybody understand this basic point of siddhanta that marginal and external potency are only called as such due to certain conditions and that those conditions do not exist in Goloka? It is preposterous and just downright ignorant to say that there is a marginal or external energy in Goloka.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport, So, the jiva is actually equal in quality to the internal potency. But, when the living entity is in the marginal position he is not acquainted with his nature as internal potency. When the jiva become invlolved in the activities of the internal potency, then the jiva becomes internal potency and loses it's marginal status. There is no marginal plane or potency in Goloka. Marginal potency only refers to conditioned living beings who are out of touch with the function of the internal potency which is to serve and love Krishna. The devotess and associates of Krishna in Vrindavan are NOT marginal potency. Never have been and never will be.

Mahaprabhu instructs Sanatan Goswami about how a devotee should cultivate devotional service. So, there is nothing sahajiya about remembering a favorite parshada of Krishna and looking up to that parshada as one's role model in Vrindavan lila. What is sahajiya is when a sadhaka just gets stuck in vaidhi-bhakti rules and regulations and never develops an attraction for a particular servant of Krishna. Ultimately, Krishna consciousness cannot be divorced from ragunuga bhakti. Without raganuga bhakti all one has is some very remote and vague idea about devotional service. Devotional service performed without remembering such an eternal associate of Krishna and aspiring to serve in that mood is just simple impersonal vaidhi-bhakti that will never take one to Vrindavan.

If this is true, then that is also part of their misconception, because raganuga-bhakti is not imagining that we are in Goloka serving Krishna but raganuga-sadhana is remembering as actual eternal servant of Krishna in Goloka and considering that parshada of Krishna to be the role model of one's aspiration. So, it appears that the fall-from-goloka fairytale also implies a form of sahajiya mentality of thinking one's self to be an eternal associate of Krishna in Vrindavan. Such thinking is sahajiya mentality. It's offensive to think that one is an eternal associate of Krishna.