Guruvani

Srila Prabhupada didn't want to spook devotees with the truth that in Goloka you become the eternal slave of Krishna. So, he told some fairytale about free will in Goloka. Free will to fall down and leave Krishna does not exist in Goloka. Not a single devotee has ever fallen from Goloka since time eternal. Divine slavery. That is our hope, our dream and our goal. To be the eternal slave of Krishna is the highest perfection of the soul.

That material energy is not accessible from Goloka. So, the option to choose maya is not really an option there. Krishna protects his devotees better than that. The devotees of Goloka have no access to maya. They cannot fall down. Their free will is utilized in deciding which way they want to serve Krishna. The option to enter maya is not available from Goloka. Maya can only be reached from the Maha-tattva - not Vaikuntha/Goloka. No matter what the fairytale says, I don't buy it. Maya cannot be reached from Goloka. The choice to leave Goloka is a myth. The fairytale of free will of the jiva does not mean that a devotee in Goloka can choose maya. He cannot, no matter what the fairytale told by Srila Prabhupada says. When you enter Goloka you become eternal slave of Krishna. If you don't want to be the eternal slave of Krishna, then don't go to Goloka. There is no return ticket from Goloka. It's a one way ticket.

Let's not argue the ritvik issue in this topic. It's not something that can definitively be disproven or proven with shastra, so the argument will go on till the end of time. This topic is about exposing the fall theory as being worse than Mayavadi philosophy. There is no doubt that it is. It appears that Srila Prabhupada didn't foresee that allowing the fairytale to perpetuate would in the future cause a burden on ISKCON as the devotees carry that baggage with them into the 21st Century when Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the western world has expanded well beyond ISKCON. Now, the baggage of the fall-from-goloka fairytale is dogging ISKCON like a Chihuahua on steroids as ISKCON devotees makes fools of themselves all over the world by preaching the fairytale in abject defiance of shastric conlusions to the contrary. The "Back To Godhead" theme is nice if understood from the proper perspective. But, neophyte western devotees have taken that theme and turned it into a new version of Gaudiya siddhanta. The "anti-Godbrother" campaign of Srila Prabhupada got way out of control and has come back to roost in ISKCON like a vulture setting on a power-pole looking for roadkill. In ISKCON Jesus is nice, Mohammed is nice but all the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada are the bad guys. It's a nightmate scenario for ISKCON. It turns my stomach.

As on some other issues being discussed here, you are showing yourself to be suffering from a lack of proper understanding. The fact that you don't know that what you just said is very absurd and ludicrous is evidence that in fact you don't know very well the shastra or the tradition of Gaudiya culture. Your ignorance to demean advanced devotees is also revealing that you are an upstart western devotee who thinks he is better than the actual Vaishnava devotees born in India who were direct disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur. Maybe you are pleased with yourself, but Srila Prabhupada would never be pleased with that nonsense still being perpetuated some 30 years after his departure. Claiming sattvik-bhavas is a sure sign of a neophyte that has a cheap idea of what Krishna consciousness is. It's amazing that you can come out of trance long enough to criticise some lovely Vaishnavas much older, learned and more advanced than you.

Oh, so you are a sahajiya to boast about things in public? Now I understand. Only a fool would say such things in public. Go back to your fairytale dream that you are in Goloka playing with Krishna. Sorry I bothered you in all your ecstacy. It's nice that you come out of trance long enough to post in the forum.

Please start another topic for your blasphemy of Vaishnavas. This topic is not about that. Take your bad mouth and start your own topic dedicated to blaspheming Vaishnavas. This topic has nothing to do with your blasphemous rantings. Devotion to Srila Prabhupada is not enhanced by blaspheming Vaishnavas in the name of devotion. But, of course this is what you have learned from your neophyte ISKCON guru. That and some fancy little fairytale bedtime stories about falling from Goloka to become a worm in stool.

Well, I have tattoos of Krishna's lotus feet on my arms. I hope the Yamadutas see that when they come to get me and give me a break.

That bad huh? I didn't know it was so obvious.

I have death drills every minute of the day. That is what I learned from Srila Prabhupada. Mortality is never far from my mind. Talking about it on the forums is not my gig. That is something between me and the Supersoul. I am a private person. I don't drag my innermost thoughts onto a public forum full of antagonistic and negative people.

Remembeing Krishna at the end of life is not something that needs to be discussed. It is just something that each and every one of us has to do when the time comes. What is to talk about? If Krishna allows us to remember him then we are fortunate. Talking about it won't change anything. It is a personal issue that is between US and Krishna. There is no need for a public discussion about such a personal issue. There is nothing to discuss or debate. If we are blessed, then it will happen. If we are unfortunate then: "I'll be back"

You are asking the wrong person. I am not the one saying I am nitya-siddha having a bad dream from Goloka. I am nitya-baddha jiva who has been in this material condition of life ever since I emanated from Lord Vishnu as a spark of light emanates from the Sun. At one time that spark was within the Sun God. Then that spark came out and became part of the Sun planet. Then that spark was propelled out from the Sun planet and became a separated spark from the Sun, floating in space. That is all I know. I am not nitya-siddha. Ask the nitya-siddha vadis about that. I am a baddha-jiva since the get go of my existence as a separated spark of the Supreme Sun Krishna. Krishna generates souls from within himself eternally. He is dynamic not stagnant. He is a living thing that grows, expands and gives off energy. I am just a photon of light that came out of the Supreme Light Bulb. At one time I was within the light bulb. Now, I am not.

I am sorry, but I have to correct my previous error that the original statements in this topic were by Narasingha Maharaja. They were from his organization's website that is actually administrated by B.B Vishnu Maharaja and were his writings: However, there is no doubt that this position is exactly reflective of the position of Narasingha Maharaja as well. I know B.B Vishnu Maharaja. Before he joined the movement he had just finished a masters degree in physics. So, he is quite the intelligent gentleman that I knew well many years ago.

It is his blessing. Otherwise we would never have attained his association and service from our position as spirit sparks in the brahmajyoti limited to jnana without any concept of bhakti. Falling down into maya was the best thing that ever happened to a jiva in the brahmajyoti under the impression that he is supreme and fully satisfied with brahman realization. Thanks to Krishna we fell into maya and got the chance to associate with his devotee and get the seed of bhakti.

Very profound. And, yes, that is exactly what has happened as the result of "utility" preaching and the allowance for the fairytale to perpetuate amongst a class of devotees who kept showing Srila Prabhupada over and over with stupid questions that they were not capable of understanding what he was writing in his books. As such, the fairytale was born. Now, the fairytale has become a horror story of billions of pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka falling down to become worms in stool. Such an idea is a philosophical nightmare. It has thrown the movement into a quagmire of myth and fairytale that is effectively blocking the whole system and necessity of raganuga-bhakti. The fairytale locks devotees into vaidhi-bhakti with the expectation that they can attain perfection without following the process of raganuga-bhakti. The fall-from-goloka fairytale is a siddhantic nightmare for ISKCON that breeds offensive neophytes with no concept of raganuga-bhakti.

Free will of the jiva is actually an illusion. We don't have freedom to accept or reject death. Death comes whether we choose it or not. The conditioned jiva does not have free will to choose old age, disease, birth or death. We have no choice in those matters. Really, the idea of the free will of the jiva is actually a fraud conception as the free will of the jiva is so irrelevant that it is negligible. Free will? Just another fairytale. Krishna influences the jiva to fall into maya. It is not really a choice. Chapter 9: Answers by Citing the Lord's VersionBhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 Krishna is the supreme controller. We have no free will really. Krishna inspires the soul towards maya or towards devotional service according to his sweet will. We are just puppets waiting for the Puppetmaster to decide what he wants to do with us. The free will theory is a hoax. Not a blade of grass moves without the will of God. We didn't come to this material world except by the will of Krishna - The Supreme Controller. We control NOTHING.

This topic is not about me. Don't change the subject. Before you go to critcise then you must first put your whole life up for scrutiny to show that you are in the position to condescend upon others. If you can prove you are faultless, then I will accept your criticism. Otherwise, let's stick to the topic at hand and not get all up into each other's backside.

And even then it is only the jivas in the mahat-tattva that even have access to the material energy Maya Devi. The only jivas that really have access to maya and the vulnerability to illusion are the jivas that get manifested by the tatastha-shakti of Narayana within the range of the Mahat-tattva. 3/4 of the jivas in the brahmajyoti don't even have a clue that maya even exists. Maya is only available to the 1/4 energy of jivas (Johns) who get exposure within the cloud of the maha-tattva.

So, maybe we should just stop philosophical discussions and talk about the weather? Maybe politics? Jesus? How about let's talk about the president of Iran and do some asura-katha? Let's just stick to things we understand and give up these philosophical discussions about ISKCON fairytales and about falling from Goloka to become a worm in stool!

Free will is only abused by the mentally deranged and ignorant. Since the liberated souls are not mentally deranged or ignorant there is no possibility of choosing to leave the unlimted nectarean bliss of Goloka to become a worm in stool. The even insinuate that liberated, perfected, self-realized souls at some point misuse their free will and choose to leave the loving service of Krishna is an asinine idea that completely contradicts everything that shastra says about the perfection of the liberated devotees in Goloka.

That is just an attempt to derail the defeat of the bogus philosophy that involves a lot more than "origins". It involved serious deviations from Gaudiya siddhanta and a class of neophytes that presume to know better than the seniormost Gaudiya Vaishnavas on the planet. If Narasingha Maharaja, Paramadvaiti Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja and other senior devotees have taken time to address the issue I hardly consider it as some taboo "origins" debate that should not be discussed. It's not just about "origins". It deals with many important philosophical issues beyond any "origins" debate. The fall theory is slinging mud on the transcendence and it should not be tolerated.

Actually, it appears that YOU do not understand the argument they are putting forth. You don't understand the implications of the fall theory. Narasingha Maharaja understands well what they are saying and he clearly says that the theory is worse than Mayavada philosophy.

<!-- Begin #content --> <!-- Begin #main --> Sunday, January 08, 2006 Swami B.A. Paramadvaiti Maharaja <!-- Begin .post --> How did we come into this World? Question: I cannot understand how it comes that if it is so good in the spiritual world, how dumb we must be to force Krishna to remove us from there? I just really cannot imagine that all the material universes were created just for our sense gratification. Well it is logic: if we can't do it there, we must do it here, and actually we do not even enjoy it. It is like that. Did we personally ask to come here? Or is it that there is some downward degradation, away from Krishna? How do such toughts can come up within us if we are there? I really don't understand, but I understand that now I'm here. And then there is this material creation. How could I choose to come here? It's just unconcievable. Answer: In the purport of the verse from the Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 3, chapter 16, verse 29 Srila Prabhupada mentions three times that a jiva that took birth in the spiritual world cannot fall down again, if not arranged and approved by the Lord himself. It is a very surprising topic. Because the supreme Lord, the personality of Godhead, can do whatever He wants. He is free to do anything, and on top of it, everything He does is good and beneficial. He is the only wellwisher of all living entities. He is not against any single one of them, but for Him to exhibit His various pastimes, it takes many different, delightful things to happen, which in the long run give incredible blessings to the people in this world. In this purport Srila Prabhupada says three times within half a page, that a living entitiy cannot fall from Vaikuntha, will not fall from Vaikuntha, never falls from Vaikuntha. Even though he says this so clear here, it happend later, that in the movement of my spiritual master - after his departure - interpretations were drawn from a few other indications, completely denying this puport and indirectly declaring that Srila Prabhupada is three times wrong; three times wrong in the same purport. This topic was not only millions of times discussed, but also millions of times misunderstood. To understand, or not to understand the Lord, is purely a question of grace. Logical sequences do not necessarily favour us in this respect. The speculators have not only said that the jiva falls from Vaikuntha, but they are also claiming that jivas fall from Krsnaloka – that means falling from the personal, direct association with the Supreme Lord; falling from the nitya-siddha position. This idea is not at all backed up by sastra. Of course, if Krsna wants any of his associates to go somewhere and to do something on His behalf, He would have the free will to do so. We cannot say, that Krsna cannot do this but in no way we can come up with a theory and try to substantiate it by wild speculations, which claims that every living entity comes from a personal relationship with Krsna in Goloka Vrindavan and fell down to this world due to misbehaviour there. If this is the case, there would be plenty of misbehaviour in the spiritual world, wouldn´t it? Just imagine if amongst the cowhard boys, here and there, the one or the other ends up missing. What would his friends think about: “Oh were is Gopa?” Then the others would say: “Don't you know what he did yesterday? Krsna told him to get lost.” Their hearts would be crumbled continuously in Goloka Vrindavana. How could you call it the spiritual world? If somebody from our own lines falls down, we are suffering. It is such an painful experience. So I am amazed, what the mind is capable to produce such ideas. Well, sometimes Prabhupada may have mentioned in a letter to someone, that the idea, that we come from Brahman is rather impersonal. So he said, we do come from Krsna. We do not come from Brahman – because he could see, that their interpretation was: If I come from Brahman, then I better go back to Brahman again. They would not take Krsna in consideration as the supreme generating power. Last not least the fall down, the return, the relationship and all the behaviour is covered by a certain veil. By the sweet will of the Supreme it is covered by a certain uncertainty which devotees have penetrated here and there with their tikas by saying things like: there was some apathy towards service; there was some indifference towards the Lord, there was some desire to control the nature; there was a misuse of free will. We argue in one way or another and that is kind of reasonable because you see that we can be good or bad according to our capricious decisions. It is reasonable that this capacity caused us at some point to go the wrong way. So the veil is there, meaning you cannot see everything as clear as without the veil. The veil which is covering the relationship is a very sensible veil. There is a reason for that, because without that veil, there would be no question of free will. If everything would be crystal clear, our material existence would be a crystal clear nonsense and we would not have any choice to go on with our pleasure seeking mentality. It is very sad actually, people want the Vedas and Krsna to give things which Krsna prefers not to give, and due to that souls make concoctions, or even worse, they reject them all together. But it is not our right. We are simply meant to accept the guidance from the pure devotees, like Srila Prabhupada, who in a short purport emphaticly says, that nobody falls from Vaikuntha. Then we may speculate: “Oh, he means Vaikuntha, but from Goloka, yes we fall.” First of all Goloka is part of Vaikuntha and not only that, it is the top most part of Vaikuntha and those who cannot see that, they cannot recognize that. Well, maybe they are prefering the relationship in awe and reverence, like the aisvarya relationship with the Supreme Lord and thus they do not pay special attention to the Lord. Even though, who can do away with the sweetness? So, in this particular verse Srila Prabhupada makes it so clear that we will not fall down, when we reach Lord Krsna's abode. That means, nobody who has been there before fell down either. That is a logical sequence. But we did come from somewhere, and we did come from the Lord, because we did not invent ourselves. So there is an agency of eternal soul production, if you want to call it in that way. And they all get the chance to go there or to come here. It is up to him. It is behind that veil, because if we would remove that veil, nobody could be in maya for one second, because the crystal clear confrontation with the truth would make it impossible to go against the truth. So there would be no freedom. We would just be fabricated to fit in one single unit, which means submission, and then everybody in the spiritual world would be a naturally submissive devotee without any option; and that is too much robot like, it is too much zombie like, it is too mechanic and manipulated. So Krsna has not done it in that way. Everything He does is good. He does not make anything wrong. We do, He does not. These are not words taken out of someone's mind. All is described there: antaranga-, bahiranga-, tatastha-sakti; and the light, the brahmajyoti, the effulgance coming from the Lord in the form of sparks, which are just each and everyone part of His infinte energy. So potentiallity of individuality development by the sweet will of the Lord for raising in the soul the chance to come into a personal encounter with the origin of its existence. That is Krsna, the beloved of all souls. <!-- End #footer -->

The fall fairytale might have seemed like a useful device back in the early days of the movement, but in the 21st century it is proving to be exposed as a serious philosophical anomaly that is pushing ISKCON into a an obscure corner of the Gaudiya Vaishnava world. It's time to leave behind the fairytale and get with the real siddhanta of the Gaudiya Vaishnava shastra. Too much purport and too many preaching devices have come home to roost in the ISKCON party.

Your position is trying to have it both ways. There is no way for a nitya-siddha parishad of Krishna to come under the influnece of ignorance unless and until maya reaches him from within the internal svarupa-shakti of Goloka. You want to make a claim and then insist that it does not violate shastric siddhanta on the infallible nature of the svarupa-shakti and all the jivas sheltered there. This is a perfect example of talking out of both sides of your mouth and trying to deny the actual implications that the fall theory involves. The fall theory cannot work without maya having power to enter the svarupa-shakti and create havoc upon the pure devotees of Krishna. Such a theory is absurd.

Narasingha Maharaja: