figure that one out and then the rest is detail....

not this pointless topic again. Who cares how we got here. The point is to get out.

"So this theory, that the world is going automatically or we have come into this material world without any reason, without any cause… Kim anyat kāma-haitukam. They say, the rascals say, that our coming to this material world is to the lusty desires of the father and mother. Therefore the child has no meaning. It is a by-product of the lusty desire. So if I don’t want it, kill it. Destroy it. This is going on.......The cause was there. The cause was there that because we wanted to enjoy and did not like to serve Krishna. This is the cause. Krishna-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. We are serving Krishna. That is our, I mean to say, place, constitutional position, to serve Krishna, but sometimes we desire: “Why shall I serve Krishna? Why shall I serve the spiritual master? I shall enjoy. I shall enjoy.” But that enjoyment was there by serving Krishna, but he wanted to become enjoyer independent of Krishna. That is the cause of falldown. With Krishna, you can enjoy very nicely. You have seen the picture, how with Krishna the gopīs are nicely dancing, enjoying; the cowherd boys are playing. Enjoy with Krishna, that is your real enjoyment. But without Krishna, when you want to enjoy, that is māyā."

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.8.7
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda
Los Angeles, February 10, 1975
750210SB.LA

OMG krsna how bored are you this morning? Go take a walk or watch a movie, anything but this.

I remember one Prabhupada disciple telling me how he knew that in his previous life he had parents who were demi-gods. I had one where I had parents who were demi-gods but i was an asura. Prabiupada was from Goloka yet He came here in this World, He did'nt fall. SO i guess we dont fall from Goloka but from somewhere else. If you say we fell from Goloka then you would have to be a pure devotee, as only pure devotees exist in Goloka.

Is Golok a black hole? After all, nothing can come out of a black hole too.
I have seen this topic so many times that I thought of having some fun.

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

I clearly recall having read him say that he was a physician of spotless character in his previous life, and that this detail was known on the basis of the Bhrigu-samhita. The descent from Goloka yarn was in fact spun by his disciples, probably when he was still physically present and disproportionately embellished and mythologised after his disappearance.

as a matter of tradition, disciples in GV sampradayas are encouraged to see their guru as an eternal Krsna's associate, usually a manjari. the external reality is of no importance in that matter, but this view needs to be cultivated in private, not proclaimed to the world.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura had a very humble view of himself, yet he was seen as a true legend by his followers. Somehow none of the major acharyas in our tradition are seen as sadhana-siddhas by their followers, which is kind of sad, because it reduces the role and importance of achieving perfection by a gradual process. Still, from the external perspective we certainly see all these persons gradually develop spiritually, change, and eventually achieve the perfection after much labor and strife.

In fact, I would concur with you on this one. The struggle of a sadhana-siddha is in many respects more admirable, inspiring and emulatable than an already-perfect-guru come down from the spiritual world to herd a group of disciples back to the fair land. This insistence on one's preceptor being a nitya-siddha in certain Gaudiya quarters is irrational, to say the least.

Dear Mr or Mrs. LoveroftheBhagavata,

With all due respect for our beloved Leonardo and his achievements --there is a wee imperceptable peepee in your avatara [don't remove it, don't touch it up] just know that it is there--and we will politely ignore its presence.

your servant,
Bhaktajan

Doing my best to bring a little happiness into the world.

Lol

Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973

Yet I find it interesting that he didn't use the word originate. How can an eternal being "originate"? Interestingly in the sastra we are told that the jivas originate from the tatastha sakti. Prabhupada stuck to the siddhanta by not using the word originate. But no matter what words you stick to, the reality is not something that can completely be contained by our words in a dualistic language used by conditioned souls. Each angle of vision described in words can be established by logic and defeated by another logic. tarko parthisthanat. Tal fruit and the crow. We can waste our time eternally establishing and defeating all the statements about the soul's origin. The real guru will mention what is said in the sastra briefly but it is all in the context of engaging his disciples in bhajan - practical devotional service. If we have become arm chair philosophers then this is something to lament.

Interesting reading however I would just like to make a short comment

Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatasthas (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independent and eternally have the free will to accept or reject Krishna. Marginal means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva.
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Having choice as a marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha), is what it really means to be in-between the Superior and inferior.
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The marginal aspect of the creation is not a place or plain, but rather the individual jiva's who ARE the tatastha s'aktis or 'so called' marginal individual living beings, who can choose to be aware of their eternal bodily identity serving Krishna in Goloka.

Or they can forget their eternal identity and only be aware of the restrictions of chasing their own selfish desires, thoughts and imaginary worlds within Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM perishable creation of Maha Vishnu known as the mahat-tattva material worlds.

Of cource we came from Vishnu-tattva, and Vishnu is always in the Spiritual World. If we had spiritual bodies in their, and had fallen it would make no sense? Why? Because all fallen or unfallen souls are mentioned in the Scriptures.

So by this logic you have defeated the idea of the tatastha being a place or plane, yet your angle of vision is true but can also be defeated by the logic that proves the tatastha is also a place. One angle of vision is from eternity, that the jivas are always existing and the other angle of vision is from the standpoint of being locked into a material time based language.

The siddhanta expresses these thoughts through language in a particular way. No one can show where the sastra says that the jivas originate in Goloka for that would imply that Krsna's eternal associates fall down, which would be impudent. Yet when you write:
You are expressing a though which is absolutely true as confirmed many times by Srila Prabhupada and I have already shown you this in the Jaiva Dharma. But the real guru is expert at applying these apparently contradictory concepts for the correct time, place and circumstance because he has a mature, developed relationship with Krsna. He is experiencing the real bliss of chanting the holy name of Krsna and we are all hankering after that experience. This is what we are really after, not being right or correct about the origin of the soul question. And besides even if we are correct, it can only be hollow words for us because we are not actually experiencing the spritual reality.

Well if you really don't care, then why are you posting anything in response? At least 'krsna' posted 4 nice pictures of Sri Krishna. You haven't contributed anything other than your pompous attitude that no one should discuss what you aren't comfortable discussing.