How have we fallen in this material world?

suchandra · April 27, 2008

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'.

"Our present existence, it is also dream, exactly like we dream at night. In dreaming, we create so many things. So this material world is also a gross dreaming. Gross dreaming. That is subtle dreaming. And this is gross dreaming. That is the action of the mind, body, intelligence, dreaming. And here, the action of five material elements: earth, water, air, fire… But all of them, these eight, they are simply material. So we are thinking that “I have now built a very nice house, skyscraper building.” It is nothing but dream. Nothing but dream. Dream in this sense, that as soon as I give up this body, all my skyscraper building, business, factory— finished. Exactly the same dream. Dream is for few minutes, or few hours. And it is for few years. That’s all. It is dream.So one should not be disturbed by this dreaming condition. That is spiritual life. One should not be disturbed. Just like we are not disturbed. Suppose, in dream, I was put on the throne, and I was working like a king, and after the dream is over, I am not sorry. Similarly, in dream I was seeing that tiger has attacked me. I was actually crying “Here is tiger! Here is tiger! Save me.” And the person who is lying behind me or beside me, he says, “Oh, why you are crying? Where is tiger?” So when he’s awakened, he sees there is no tiger. So everything is like that. But this dream, these gross and subtle dreams, are simply reflections. Just like what is dream? The whole day, what I think, the dreaming is a reflection, reflection. My father was doing cloth business. So sometimes he, in dreaming he was quoting price: “This is the price.” So similarly it is all dreaming. This material existence, made of these five gross elements and three subtle elements, they’re exactly like dream. Smara nityam aniyatām. Therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, smara nityam aniyatām. This anitya, temporary… Dreaming is always temporary.

So we must know that whatever we possess, whatever we are seeing, these are all dream, temporary. Therefore if we become engrossed with the temporary things, so-called socialism, nationalism, family- ism or this-ism, that-ism, and waste our time, without cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then that is called śrama eva hi kevalam, simply wasting our time, creating another body. Our own business is that we should know that “I am not this dream. I am fact, spiritual fact. So I have got a different business.” That is called spiritual life. That is spiritual life, when we understand that “I am Brahman. I am not this matter.” Brahma-bhūtaḥ."

Bhagavad-gītā 2.15

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Hyderabad, November 21, 1972

full lecture: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/721121BG.HYD.htm?i=1972

Sarva gattah · April 27, 2008

"Our present existence, it is also dream, exactly like we dream at night. In dreaming, we create so many things.

So this material world is also a gross dreaming. Gross dreaming. That is subtle dreaming. And this is gross dreaming. That is the action of the mind, body, intelligence, dreaming.

And here, the action of five material elements: earth, water, air, fire… But all of them, these eight, they are simply material.

So we are thinking that “I have now built a very nice house, skyscraper building.”

It is nothing but dream. Nothing but dream.

Dream in this sense, that as soon as I give up this body, all my skyscraper building, business, factory— finished. Exactly the same dream. Dream is for few minutes, or few hours. And it is for few years. That’s all.

It is dream.

So one should not be disturbed by this dreaming condition. That is spiritual life. One should not be disturbed.

Just like we are not disturbed. Suppose, in dream, I was put on the throne, and I was working like a king, and after the dream is over, I am not sorry. Similarly, in dream I was seeing that tiger has attacked me. I was actually crying

“Here is tiger! Here is tiger! Save me.”

And the person who is lying behind me or beside me, he says,

“Oh, why you are crying? Where is tiger?”

So when he’s awakened, he sees there is no tiger. So everything is like that.

So we must know that whatever we possess, whatever we are seeing, these are all dream, temporary.

Therefore if we become engrossed with the temporary things, so-called socialism, nationalism, family- ism or this-ism, that-ism, and waste our time, without cultivating Krsna consciousness, then that is called śrama eva hi kevalam, simply wasting our time, creating another body.

Our own business is that we should know that “I am not this dream".

Bhagavad-gītā 2.15

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Hyderabad, November 21, 1972

full lecture: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/721121BG.HYD.htm?i=1972

The place of material dreams

THE MAHAT-TATTVA DREAM CREATION OF MAHA-VISHNU

Sarva gattah · April 28, 2008

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The following is concluding confirmation, as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that all jiva/souls are originally existening perpetually in their full devotional bodily form, which is the full potential and expression of all marginal living beings, that are all enclosed by the eternal ‘present’ of time and space within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavan or Krsnaloka.

Within that perpetual world, all living entities are perpetually existening, which means thay are always present there as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, that is an eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna. Therefore the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

No one like a cowherd boy, lays down and sleeps in Goloka, then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.

WHY??

The cow herd boy laying down sleeping and then dreams, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state.

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. Within the 'eternal presents' there is only one 'concept of time' and 'one eternal nitya siddha form of each marginal living being' that is eternally present in Goloka or Krsnaloka.

What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

This sentence is very important to understand.

There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that.

What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka.

Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future.

The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time. That restricted state of awareness, due to the living entities alertness being out of sync with ones natural enviroment of the ‘perpetual present in Krsna-loka, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness ,but rather a division of time.

In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

FALLING TO THE MATERIAL WORLD

For a living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fall down previously, long, long, long ago from Vaikuntha, as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life. Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own Brahman baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the impersonal aspect of their individual Brahman or nitya-siddha consciousness however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there again to the mahat-tattva or material creation to the encloser of ethereal and biological vessels.

Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.

Dark Warrior · April 28, 2008

I will just add my two cents on this.

The Vedas say that Brahman is eternal, and that time is cyclic. Shruti also posits that the Jiva is also eternal. He has not been created, and has existed just as long as the Lord has, ie, eternally.This is verified by the Gita.

You must understand therfore, that Samsara is also eternal. There was no 'fall'. The Jivas who haven't yet attained moksha, have been transmigrating eternally. Their Karma has no beginning, it is also eternal.

The idea that we were once with the Lord and then fell is ridiculous because:

- It conveys the message that somehow, the Jiva, despite being in the radiant company of the Lord, was more attracted by the inferior world of Samsara. This means, the Lord apparently is not attractive enough to hold our attention for long!!

- Secondly, it is illogical because there is no guarantee that we won't 'fall' again, if we get moksha.

Thus, the idea of a 'fall' is rejected. You are eternal, your Karma is eternal and your transmigration has no beginning.

Now, the most popular 'proof' offered for a 'fall' is the Jaya and Vijaya episode. But people are confusing this. Let me clear it up:

- Jaya and Vijaya are indeed two jivas who have attained moksha, who are in Vaikuntha. BUT, it is to be understood that these two were not the ones who became cursed and took births as Ravana, Hiranyakasipu, etc. Because they have attained moksha and are eternally in service of the Lord.

- However, there is another pair named Jaya and Vijaya. These two are not in Vaikuntha. They are in Vishnu Loka. And it is necessary to stress that the Lord takes a functional avatar as Vishnu and resides among the Devas. Thus, Vishnu Loka is located in the material world.

- Now, you may ask, how could there be two Jaya and Vaijaya's? The answer is simple - Vishnu Loka is simply a replica of the real Vaikuntha (which is inaccessible to unliberated Jivas), MINUS THE BLISS AND FREEDOM FROM SAMSARA. Therfore, there is a liberated Jaya and Vijaya in Vaikuntha, but there are also two unliberated Jivas called Jaya and Vijaya in Vishnu Loka.

- You might ask, how could the abode of the Lord be in the material world as well? For one thing, it is a given that Vishnu loves to mingle with His devotees, the Devas. For another thing, Lord Vishnu's presence in Vishnu Loka will not give as much bliss to His subjects as His presence in Vaikuntha. Because, even during avatars, people were unable to understand that Brahman Himself was among them. Hence, the residents of Vishnu Loka are not blissful, and they may not even know that Vishnu is Brahman Himself.

- The evidence is also there to prove that this theory is right. For instance, when the sages arrive at Vishnu Loka, they are barred from entering by Jaya and Vijaya because Lord Vishnu was 'resting'. Now, if this was Vaikuntha, why would the Lord need to 'rest'? There is no such thing as a resting Lord in a liberated place. However, Vishnu Loka is part of the Lord's lila, and thus, He acts just like the Devas.

Plus, Bhrigu was able to come to Vishnu Loka, when he kicked Vishnu on the chest, upon which the Lord gently revealed His supremacy to Bhrigu. It is a fact that Bhrigu is not liberated. Thus, Vishnu Loka is within the material world.

----

Thus, there is no fall. The reason why Vishnu Loka exists is simply because, by coming into the material world, the Lord becomes part of His own glories. Furthermore, the unliberated Jaya and Vijaya gives Him a chance to start his lilas every Yuga.

Avinash · April 28, 2008

Hi Dark Warrior,

I am not sure whether to agree with you or not but I really like what you are saying. This theory takes care of various issues very well.

Beggar · April 28, 2008

Dark Warrior, go back and looi at posts 39 - 42 on this thread and you will see the Gaudiya siddhanta on this topic by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

Sarva gattah · April 28, 2008

The idea that we were once with the Lord and then fell is ridiculous because - It conveys the message that somehow, the Jiva, despite being in the radiant company of the Lord, was more attracted by the inferior world of Samsara. This means, the Lord apparently is not attractive enough to hold our attention for long!!

- Secondly, it is illogical because there is no guarantee that we won't 'fall' again, if we get moksha. .

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence (the ability to choose) as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence". 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

Sarva gattah · April 28, 2008

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka' date=' they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'[/font']

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness ,but rather a division of time.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka..

Srila Prabhupada - "All tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us has a different taste of associating with Krishna, and that will be realised when one is liberated.

Hansadutta: So that's fixed already.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Krishna. That is called svarupa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family we enjoy different rasas. We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relationship with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, Krishna... The whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife?

Hansadutta: I see.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that "I am tasting this rasa at the present moment. Then I will get better rasas." No. That is not... Everyone thinks, "My rasa is the best." Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Chaitanya-charitamrita. Why don't you see?

Hansadutta: And Nectar of Devotion.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with Krishna is the best."

Hansadutta: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some--

Srila Prabhupada – ‘No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Even the trees in Vrindaban, they want to serve Krishna silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda. Everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When Krishna comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, 10 February 1971, Gorakhpur

Sarva gattah · April 29, 2008

AN ISKCON CONCLUSION

It is natural that if we cannot understand something like the origin of the jiva soul, we bring up something to support our inability to understand.

There are many in ISKCON that will always quote the ‘Crow-And-Tal-Fruit Logic’ letter Prabhupada sent to his Australian devotees, of which I was one of them way back in 1972.

Just a few days ago I had a discussion with an ISKCON regional secretary, Atmarama Prabhu ACBSP, a very nice dedicated disciple of Srila Prabhupada and Godbrother I have known for over thirty years, who just unassumingly repeated the ISKCON line when this subject is brought up.

He said these things couldn’t be understood until we go back home back to Godhead. Although he did make it clear that the jiva originates directly from Krsnaloka and NOT the Vaikuntha planets and certainly NOT from the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

We both agreed on this however, where he thought I was becoming a little argumentive, was when I said that the letter, ‘Crow-And-Tal-Fruit Logic,’ was not the only time Prabhupada discussed this issue. Srila Prabhupada also discussed the jiva's origin in Mayapur, where he had said that this is something we should try to understand because it is important to appreciate we were once with Krsna and DID NOT originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, even though we all have probably visited that ‘dreamless dormant’ place on many occasions.

Humbly Atmarama Prabhu explained it in this way – “Most devotees cannot understand such things and it is best to just get out of this material world instead of trying to figure out where we came from”.

Adding further, “We know we came from Krsnaloka because Prabhupada has told us so and he’s our authority, we are not interested in what others say on this subject, so for us, there is no argument, we don’t bother getting into arguments because we already know where we come from. In any case, it is best to just get out of this material world rather than waste our time arguing the point with others over where we came from and how we fell down, only when we get out, will we truly understand and apreciate who we really are, because by then, we will be back with Krsna”.

Atmarama Prabhu concluded, “For me, this is not important, first we must explain Krsna and his wonderful pastimes to others and how we are not these material bodies, everything else will be revealed to us when we are ready, when we go back home, back to Godhead.”

I thanked Atmarama Prabhu sincerely for sharing his realizations on this subject

Well, this post should make Theist Prabhu happy, as what Atmarama Prabhu has said is what he has said all along

Dark Warrior · April 29, 2008

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence (the ability to choose) as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence". 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa

This isn't endorsed by sastra.

Now, consider this - In Samsara, the Jiva has its svarupa jnana intact, but its jnana contracts or expands due to Karma. Therfore, by its minute independence, it can make the right or wrong decision.

In Vaikuntha, the Jnana of the Jiva is expanded in full. It has no ajnana. Then, how could the Jiva make a 'wrong' decision in Vaikuntha and leave the Lord?

The Jiva, being in complete knowledge in Vaikuntha, is incapable of making wrong decisions.

Souls have always been in samsara. It is beginningless, according to scriptures.

I give the following analogy. Consider radiation being restricted by a reactor. As long as it is in the reactor, its powers are under check. Once the reactor bursts, the immense power of radiation is unleashed. Similarly, while in Samsara, the Jiva's Karma makes its Jnana contract or expand, allowing it to make right or wrong decisions. In Vaikuntha, where there is NO AJNANA, there is also no 'wrong' decision.

It is not right to say that this knowledge is unimportant. We need to understand our origin and who we are, in order to get moksha. And there certainly is no 'fall'.

EDIT: Look at this sloka from Srimad Bhagavatam,

Sage NArada tells King YudhiSThira (7.1.36) :

" yekadA brahmaNaha putrA vishNu lOkam yadrucchayA |

sanandanAdayO jagmushcarantO bhuvanatrayam || "

" Once upon a time, when the sons of (chatur mukha) Brahma,

namely, Sanaka, Sanandana, SanAtana and Sanat-kumAra were

traveling throughout the three worlds, they by chance came

to Vishnu Loka".

This is proof that my theory on the Jaya Vijaya episode is right. The sons of Brahma are not liberated, so they cannot have gone to Vaikuntha. Furthermore, it says, they came to Vishnu Loka while travelling throughout the three worlds. Vaikuntha is beyond the three worlds, so they could not have come to it by chance. Only Vishnu Loka is within the three worlds, because it is within the material realms.

Kulapavana · April 29, 2008

AN ISKCON CONCLUSION

We know we came from Krsnaloka because Prabhupada has told us so and he’s our authority, we are not interested in what others say on this subject...

The Iskcon conclusion should be:

"[...]It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha.[...]"(Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. [...]"(Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

which is also a conclusion of Srila Prabhupada's guru, and a conclusion of the sampradaya Prabhupada represents.

you MUST be interested what the authorities in our sampradaya say on this subject or you will be considered an apa-sampradaya. with the respect to the origin of jiva issue, Iskcon IS an apa-sampradaya.

Dark Warrior · April 29, 2008

Well, I believe it has something to do with Adam and Eve 'falling' from grace on account of that whole apple thing. Obviously, it has exerted its influence on ISKCON's brand of Vaishnavism.

realist · April 29, 2008

This isn't endorsed by sastra. .

Your understanding is complete nonsense, what bogus impersonal version of the shastra are you reading?

Thank God ISKCON just ignores people like you. :deal:

"The Virajā, or Causal Ocean, is the border between the spiritual and the material world. The material energy is situated on one shore of that ocean, and it cannot enter onto the other shore, which is the spiritual sky". Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.269

"That original Personality of Godhead, named Sankarshana, first lies down in the river Virajā, which serves as a border between the material and the spiritual world. As Kāranābdhiśāyī Vishnu, He is the original cause of the material creation". Śrī Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.268

Srila Prabhupada - "In the Padmottara-khanda (225.57) it is stated that the material energy and the spiritual energy are separated by water known as the Viraja River. That river flows from the perspiration of the first purusa incarnation. On one bank of theVirajais the eternal nature, unlimited and all-blissful,called the spiritual sky (or Personal active aspect of the Brahmajyoti known as the Vaikuntha planets and Goloka-Vrndavana.), and this is the spiritual kingdom, or the kingdom of God". TLC 9

Srila Prabhupada - "In the effulgent rays of the spiritual sky there are innumerable planets floating. The Brahmajyoti emanatesfrom the supreme abode, Krsnaloka, and the anandamaya-cinmaya planets, which are not material, float in those rays." BG Intro

Comment -"The Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti is divided up 3/4 Vaikuntha planets headed by Goloka Vrndavana and 1/4 material planets (mahat-tattva) There is also the impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti made up of a collective of souls who have become dormant or inactive"

Srila Prabhupada - "My Lord, You are unlimited, and no one has estimated the extent of Your potencies. I think that even You do not know the range of Your potential energies. Unlimited planets float in the sky just like atoms, and great Vedantists, who are engaged in research to find You, discover that everything is different from You. Thus they finally decide that You are everything." (Bhag. 10.87.41)

Srila Prabhupada - " The spiritual world has been calculated to comprise three-fourths of the energies of the Supreme Lord, and the material world is said to comprise one-fourth of His energy, but no one can understand what this three-fourths is, since even this material universe, which comprises only one-fourth of His energy, cannot be described.

Trying to convey to Sanatana Gosvami something of the extent of one-fourth of Krsna's energy, Caitanya Mahaprabhu cited an incident from Srimad-Bhagavatam in which Brahma, the lord of the universe, came to see Krsna at Dvaraka.

When Brahma approached Krsna, the doorman informed Krsna that Brahma had arrived to see Him. Upon hearing this, Krsna inquired as to which Brahma had come, and the doorman returned to Brahma and asked, "Which Brahma are you? Krsna has asked." TLC

The Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti is divided up 3/4 Vaikuntha planets headed by Goloka Vrndavana and 1/4 material planets (mahat-tattva)

There is also the impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti made up of a collective of souls who have become dormant or inactive.

This is also the case of the Virajā, or Causal Ocean that is also full of dormant baddha-jivas that have entered into a temporary state of inactivity inbetween the Vaikunthaand the material worlds."

Srila Prabhupada- "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies -

1. internal,

2.marginal

3.external.

1. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2.By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities.

3.And by means of His Lifeless external energy which includes all bodily costumes or vessels the marginal living entities wearswhile choosing to be ignorant of KRSNA, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (also known as the mahat-tattva)

There are two types of living beings.

There is Krsna the cause of all causes and the source of ALL Vishnu-tattva expansions and there is jiva tattva or marginal living entities.

Both are eternally represented in Vaikuntha Planets aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or are within Krsna's EXCLUSIVE abode of Goloka-Vrndavana (Krsnaloka)

The Vishnu-Tattvas or Krsna's expansions are eternally present in both the Vaikuntha Planets and Goloka, just as ALL marginal living entities are perpetually present there as their nitya-siddha bodily form serving Krishna

The marginal living entities, whose full expression and potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka, can also manifest from their own marginal identity, due to choice and free will, an echoed or extended secondary consciousness called nitya-baddha.

This 'dreamlike' consciousness is confined under the cover of matter within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu (contained there in material bodily vessels that belong to the external energies of the Lord known as the mahat-tattva

Further more, the marginal living entity can echo it's consciousness to be dormant and inactive. (Neither serving the internal or being covered by the external (mahat-tattva) lifeless vessels).

The living (inherently active) Brahman effulgence or Brahmajyoti IS the unlimited individual living entities that includes the internal Vishnu-tattva's Vaikuntha planets. These eternal abodes surround Krsna's Goloka Vrndavana CENTRAL PLANET. However, in one corner of the Brahman effulgence is the material (external lifeless energy) creation of Maha-Vishnu known as the mahat-tattva that becomes an outer covering or costume to all the marginal living entities that visit there.

It is ONLY the dormant dreamless inactive conscious state of Krsna's living entities that are the impersonal aspect of the Brahman or Brahmajyoti. (Neither serving the internal or being covered by the external (mahat-tattva) lifeless vessels).

The Virajā, or Causal Ocean that is also full dormant baddha-jivas that have entered into a temporary state of inactivity OF THEIR OWN CONSCIOUSNESS inbetween the Vaikuntha and the material world that are eventually empregnated back into 'vessels of material nature'."

What does in between Vaikuntha and the mahat-tattva mean?

The Virajā, or Causal Ocean is a gateway or highway manifestes by Maha-Vishnu that gives shelter and is similtaniously a state of inactive or dormant consciousness that the living entity desired while embodied in the mahat-tattva and achieved. One does not come from the Causal Ocean, but rather they enter into it.

The Vraj river, Causal Ocean is not where the jivas originate, but is an inactive impersonal conscious state of individuality achieved by their own conscious condition when they are fed up with possessing temporary material bodily vessels in the mahat-tattva, and also unable to recognise their eternal home is Vaikuntha. In this way the jiva is not in the middle but rather not actively aware of themselves in Vaikuntha nor active in the mahat-tattva'

It is totally absurd to think that the jiva cannot come down to the material world from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha due to free will.

It is true however that their nitya-siddha body can never fall down.

So how can we be in the material and spiritual world simultaneously?

Srila Prabhupada has explained to us that the answer is the time factor and not the division of the self.

The nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal Krishna Conscious bodily form or higher self of ones marginal identity.

While the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is referred to as the secondary inferior conscious projection or lower self that is activated by ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts.

It IS that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time.

These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing and causeless mercy of the Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada is actually telling us that Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time.

The nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna.

The nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is actively within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the jiva-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels so one can actively act out their nonsensical dreams within His mahat-tattva, conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm and outside the active mahat-tattva, within an Impersonal inactive dormant jiva-baddha dreamless conscious condition known as the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman, where an unlimited number of 'jiva-baddhas' remain in that dormant state where numbers expands, due to conditioned souls constantly being liberated from the mahat-tattva, then appearing dreamless with a individual collective of other baddha-jivas, resembling dormant light particles of individual consciousness known as the impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, not aware of past, present and future, however even this dreamless state is temporary.

As already explained, Srila Prabhupada has told us that the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay.

Both are temporary conditions because the DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually.

Srila Prabhupada has further explained that the marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya baddha, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because all marginal living entities are always nitya-siddha, they only DREAM they are nitya baddha, so technically the living entity never falls down, he only thinks, imagines or dreams he is no longer in Vaikuntha.

The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuine identity perpetually.

Srila Prabhupada is clearly telling us that the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and is given material ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams a temporary reality.

However, they are subject to decay and are transitory.

Srila Prabhupada is telling us that at the same 'time' that one chooses to be absorbed in their non-Krishna nitya-baddha dreams within the mahat-tattva, ones 'svarupa' body is ALWAYS perpetually present in Goloka within the eternal 'present' reality and pastimes of Krsna in Goloka. In other words, both 'time realms' are happening simultaneously.

At times Srila Prabhupada said it was a waste of time to understand and at other times he said it was important to understand.

It depends on the devotee, not everyone can understand this and frankly most don't realize this until they go Back home, Back to Godhead

realist · April 29, 2008

AN ISKCON CONCLUSION

It is natural that if we cannot understand something like the origin of the jiva soul, we bring up something to support our inability to understand.

There are many in ISKCON that will always quote the ‘Crow-And-Tal-Fruit Logic’ letter Prabhupada sent to his Australian devotees, of which I was one of them way back in 1972.

Just a few days ago I had a discussion with an ISKCON regional secretary, Atmarama Prabhu ACBSP, a very nice dedicated disciple of Srila Prabhupada and Godbrother I have known for over thirty years, who just unassumingly repeated the ISKCON line when this subject is brought up.

He said these things couldn’t be understood until we go back home back to Godhead. Although he did make it clear that the jiva originates directly from Krsnaloka and NOT the Vaikuntha planets and certainly NOT from the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

We both agreed on this however, where he thought I was becoming a little argumentive, was when I said that the letter, ‘Crow-And-Tal-Fruit Logic,’ was not the only time Prabhupada discussed this issue. Srila Prabhupada also discussed the jiva's origin in Mayapur, where he had said that this is something we should try to understand because it is important to appreciate we were once with Krsna and DID NOT originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, even though we all have probably visited that ‘dreamless dormant’ place on many occasions.

Humbly Atmarama Prabhu explained it in this way – “Most devotees cannot understand such things and it is best to just get out of this material world instead of trying to figure out where we came from”.

Adding further, “We know we came from Krsnaloka because Prabhupada has told us so and he’s our authority, we are not interested in what others say on this subject, so for us, there is no argument, we don’t bother getting into arguments because we already know where we come from. In any case, it is best to just get out of this material world rather than waste our time arguing the point with others over where we came from and how we fell down, only when we get out, will we truly understand and apreciate who we really are, because by then, we will be back with Krsna”.

Atmarama Prabhu concluded, “For me, this is not important, first we must explain Krsna and his wonderful pastimes to others and how we are not these material bodies, everything else will be revealed to us when we are ready, when we go back home, back to Godhead.”

I thanked Atmarama Prabhu sincerely for sharing his realizations on this subject

Well, this post should make Theist Prabhu happy, as what Atmarama Prabhu has said is what he has said all along

I for one, might take Atmarama's advice and stop arguing with the Impersonalists

Kulapavana · April 29, 2008

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. [...]"(Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

No one falls from Vaikuntha not because we are all there NOW, but because it is an ETERNAL abode, as opposed to the material world (where we are now), which is only a TEMPORARY abode.

Abode means place of residence. Your present abode, my dear sleeper-vadi friends, is only temporary. Once you REACH Vaikuntha, there is no coming back.

NO ONE FALLS FROM VAIKUNTHA

Prabhupada told you that the snake is a rope, because you are afraid of snakes. Why do we have so many Hare Christians in our movement (and this is not a bad thing, mind you)? Because Prabhupada tricked them into embracing Vaishnavism by making it look similar to Christianity.

We have the "original sin" ("envy" of Krsna in Vaikuntha) and the fall from Eden (jivas fell from Vaikuntha). Even Christ and Krsna are the same Holy Name!

If you just cut out your offenses to the great Vaishnavas like Sridhara Maharaja, which in your ignorance you call impersonalists and mayavadis, you will be all set to make some real spiritual progress.

Sarva gattah · April 29, 2008

AN ISKCON CONCLUSION

We know we came from Krsnaloka because Prabhupada has told us so and he’s our authority, we are not interested in what others say on this subject so for us, there is no argument, we don’t bother getting into arguments because we already know where we come from

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Kulapavana -The Iskcon conclusion should be:-

"It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha."(Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."(Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.).

It is the conclusion!

His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada IS the present bonafide representative of His Spiritual Master and the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya Sampradaya

ISKCON is the majority bonafide branch of the 'Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya today. Srila Prabhupada EXCLUSIVELY introduced Vaishnavism to the West for the first time and is regarded as next representative within the Sampradaya (many believe he is the only bonafide representative) of his spiritual master Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada.

"It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha"(Bhag. 7.1.35, purp)

“The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

Yes Prabhupada confirms this and explains these quotes and what they mean as follows exposing the nonsene impersonalism that 'others' are using in their bogus claim we all originated from a 'plain sheet of consciousness' from the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The final state of liberation is actually re-establishing ones nitya-siddha identity. Prabhupada explains we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself as nitya-siddha by creating a dream identity (nitya-baddha).

When one wakes from that dream identity or nitya-baddha consciousness, one is once more in their original position as their eternal Krishna Conscious nitya siddha body that is always within the devotional realm of Vaikuntha established within the eternal 'present' of Krishna Lila.

There are two states all living entities can choose to be aware of, the free state (nitya siddha) and the covered state (nitya baddha).

The nitya siddha state is eternally with Krishna locked perpetually within the ‘eternal present’.

The original eternal nitya-siddha state is “never fallen.” It is simply a change of consciousness from the original nitya siddha state in Goloka to the illusionary nitya baddha state that enters the mahat-tattva. That change of consciousness means the living entity is no longer aware of the ‘eternal present’, due to now only being aware of the past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. In other words ones eternal svarupa body never leaves or falls down from Goloka, one only imagines or dreams they fall down. So the fact is, as Srila Prabhupada tells us, non of us are really fallen, we only think we are fallen.

This is the real understanding of the above verses from Srimad Bhagavatam.

Srila Prabhupada "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going".

Srila Prabhupada "Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krishna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

Kulapavana · April 29, 2008

You can believe anything you like SG-ji. Just please refrain from disrespecting senior Vaishnavas.

When someone is an offender to senior Vaishnavas, he is understood to be both fallen and falling further down. Whatever understanding of shastra they may claim to have is of no value.

Sarva gattah · April 29, 2008

Practice what you preach Kulapavana, there are many advanced humble devotees who preach the facts as Prabhupada has taught them because Prabhupada rejected the idea the living entity originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (a dormant state of individual consciousness)

Anyway here are the facts

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krishna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

Atmarama Prabhu ACBSP concludes, “We know we came from Krsnaloka because Prabhupada has told us so and he’s our authority, for me however, this (origin of jiva soul) is not important, first we must explain Krsna and his wonderful pastimes to others and how we are not these material bodies, everything else will be revealed to us when we are ready, when we go back home, back to Godhead.”

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bhaktajan · April 30, 2008

. . . as Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira says, açraddheya iväbhäti: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuëöha seems unbelievable . . .

………………………………………………………………………………………….

[Kulapavana posted:

"... It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. ..."

(Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)]

Note that these cited verses by Kulapavana are verses discussing Jaya and Vijaya—thus, candidates for descent to material world.

………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Here is the verse:

SB 7.1.35

"The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuëöha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons."

[condensed by Bhaktajan & underlines by Bhaktajan]

PURPORT

This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Närada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira inquired from him, saying, etad äkhyätum arhasi: “only you can explain the reason.”

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viñëu who descend from Vaikuëöha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.

The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamäyä, not mahämäyä.

Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuëöha.

Of course, a living entity who desires säyujya-mukti remains in Kåñëa’s Brahman effulgence, which is dependent on Kåñëa’s body (brahmaëo hi pratiñöhäham [bg. 14.27]). Such an impersonalist who takes shelter of the Brahman effulgence must surely fall down. This is stated in the çästra (Bhäg. 10.2.32):

“O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet.”

The impersonalists cannot reach the Vaikuëöha planets to become associates of the Lord, and therefore, according to their desires, Kåñëa gives them säyujya-mukti. However, since säyujya-mukti is partial mukti, they must fall again to this material world.

When it is said that the individual soul falls from Brahmaloka, this applies to the impersonalist.

From authoritative sources it is learned that Jaya and Vijaya were sent to this material world to fulfill the Lord’s desire to fight. The Lord also sometimes wants to fight, but who can fight with the Lord but a very confidential devotee of the Lord? Jaya and Vijaya descended to this world to fulfill the Lord’s desire.

Therefore in each of their three births:

first as Hiraëyäkña and Hiraëyakaçipu,

second as Rävaëa and Kumbhakarëa, and

third as Çiçupäla and Dantavakra—the Lord personally killed them.

In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight.

Otherwise, as Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira says, açraddheya iväbhäti: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuëöha seems unbelievable. How Jaya and Vijaya came to this material world is explained by Närada Muni as follows.

[The following Verses are as follows]:

TEXT 37

"Although these four great sages were older than Brahmä’s other sons like Maréci, they appeared like small naked children only five or six years old. When Jaya and Vijaya saw them trying to enter Vaikuëöhaloka, these two gatekeepers, thinking them ordinary children, forbade them to enter."

PURPORT

In this regard, Çréla Madhväcärya says in his Tantra-sära:

dväù-sthäv ity anenädhikära-sthatvam uktam

adhikära-sthitäç caiva

vimuktäç ca dvidhä janäù

viñëu-loka-sthitäs teñäà

vara-çäpädi-yoginaù

adhikära-sthitäà muktià

niyataà präpnuvanti ca

vimukty-anantaraà teñäà

vara-çäpädayo nanu

dehendriyäsu-yuktaç ca

pürvaà paçcän na tair yutäù

apy abhimänibhis teñäà

devaiù svätmottamair yutäù

The purport is that the personal associates of Lord Viñëu in Vaikuëöhaloka are always liberated souls. Even if sometimes cursed or blessed, they are always liberated and never contaminated by the material modes of nature. Before their liberation to Vaikuëöhaloka they possessed material bodies, but once they come to Vaikuëöha they no longer have them. Therefore even if the associates of Lord Viñëu sometimes descend as if cursed, they are always liberated.

SB 7.1.38

"Thus checked by the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya, Sanandana and the other great sages very angrily cursed them. “You two foolish doorkeepers,” they said. “Being agitated by the material qualities of passion and ignorance, you are unfit to live at the shelter of Madhudviña’s lotus feet, which are free from such modes. It would be better for you to go immediately to the material world and take your birth in a family of most sinful asuras.” "

SB 7.1.39

"While Jaya and Vijaya, thus cursed by the sages, were falling to the material world, they were addressed as follows by the same sages, who were very kind to them. “O doorkeepers, after three births you will be able to return to your positions in Vaikuëöha, for then the duration of the curse will have ended.” "

SB 7.1.40

"These two associates of the Lord—Jaya and Vijaya—later descended to the material world, taking birth as the two sons of Diti, Hiraëyakaçipu being the elder and Hiraëyäkña the younger. They were very much respected by the Daityas and Dänavas [demoniac species]."

SB 7.1.41

"Appearing as Nåsiàhadeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Çré Hari, killed Hiraëyakaçipu. When the Lord delivered the planet earth, which had fallen in the ffice:smarttags" />laceName w:st="on">Garbhodaka</ST1:PlaceName> <ST1:PlaceType w:st="on">Ocean</ST1:PlaceType>, Hiraëyäkña tried to hinder Him, and then the Lord, as Varäha, killed Hiraëyäkña."

SB 7.1.42

"Desiring to kill his son Prahläda, who was a great devotee of Lord Viñëu, Hiraëyakaçipu tortured him in many ways."

SB 7.1.43

"The Lord, the Supersoul of all living entities, is sober, peaceful and equal to everyone. Since the great devotee Prahläda was protected by the Lord’s potency, Hiraëyakaçipu was unable to kill him, in spite of endeavoring to do so in various ways."

PURPORT

In this verse the word sarva-bhütätma-bhütam is very significant. Éçvaraù sarva-bhütänäà håd-deçe ’rjuna tiñöhati: [bg. 18.61] the Lord is equally situated in the core of everyone’s heart. Thus He cannot be envious of anyone or friendly to anyone; for Him everyone is the same. Although He is sometimes seen to punish someone, this is exactly like a father’s punishing his child for the child’s welfare. The Supreme Lord’s punishment is also a manifestation of the Lord’s equality. Therefore the Lord is described as praçäntaà sama-darçanam. Although the Lord has to execute His will properly, He is equipoised in all circumstances. He is equally disposed toward everyone.

SB 7.1.44

"Thereafter the same Jaya and Vijaya, the two doorkeepers of Lord Viñëu, took birth as Rävaëa and Kumbhakarëa, begotten by Viçravä in the womb of Keçiné. They were extremely troublesome to all the people of the universe."

SB 7.1.45

"Närada Muni continued: My dear King, just to relieve Jaya and Vijaya of the brähmaëas’ curse, Lord Rämacandra appeared in order to kill Rävaëa and Kumbhakarëa. It will be better for you to hear narrations about Lord Rämacandra’s activities from Märkaëòeya."

SB 7.1.46

"In their third birth, the same Jaya and Vijaya appeared in a family of kñatriyas as your cousins, the sons of your aunt. Because Lord Kåñëa has struck them with His disc, all their sinful reactions have been destroyed, and now they are free from the curse."

PURPORT

In their last birth, Jaya and Vijaya did not become demons or Räkñasas. Instead they took birth in a very exalted kñatriya family related to Kåñëa’s family. They became first cousins of Lord Kåñëa and were practically on an equal footing with Him. By personally killing them with His own disc, Lord Kåñëa destroyed whatever sinful reactions were left in them because of the curse of the brähmaëas. Närada Muni explained to Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira that by entering Kåñëa’s body, Çiçupäla reentered Vaikuëöhaloka as the Lord’s associate. Everyone had seen this incident.

SB 7.1.47

"These two associates of Lord Viñëu—Jaya and Vijaya—maintained a feeling of enmity for a very long time. Because of always thinking of Kåñëa in this way, they regained the shelter of the Lord, having returned home, back to Godhead."

SB 7.1.48

"Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira inquired: O my lord, Närada Muni, why was there such enmity between Hiraëyakaçipu and his beloved son Prahläda Mahäräja? How did Prahläda Mahäräja become such a great devotee of Lord Kåñëa? Kindly explain this to me."

PURPORT

All the devotees of Lord Kåñëa are called acyutätmä because they follow in the footsteps of Prahläda Mahäräja. Acyuta refers to the infallible Lord Viñëu, whose heart is always infallible. Because the devotees are attached to the infallible, they are called acyutätmä.

Thus end the Bhaktivedanta purports of the Seventh Canto, First Chapter, of the Çrémad-Bhägavatam, entitled “The Supreme Lord Is Equal to Everyone.”

bhaktajan · April 30, 2008

[Kulapavana posted:

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. ..."(Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) ]

Bhag. 3.16.26:

"The Lord replied: O brähmaëas, know that the punishment you inflicted on them was originally ordained by Me, and therefore they will fall to a birth in a demoniac family. But they will be firmly united with Me in thought through mental concentration intensified by anger, and they will return to My presence shortly."

PURPORT

The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord’s sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord’s devotees in Vaikuëöha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities.

The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuëöha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

In Bhagavad-gétä (4.8) also it is said that the Lord appears just to give protection to the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees. The nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world; therefore, when the Lord wants to fight, He has to come to this world. But who will fight with the Supreme Lord? No one is able to fight with Him!

Therefore, because the Lord’s pastimes in the material world are always performed with His associates, not with others, He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy.

In Bhagavad-gétä the Lord says to Arjuna, “My dear Arjuna, both you and I have appeared many, many times in this material world, but you have forgotten, whereas I remember.” Thus Jaya and Vijaya were selected by the Lord to fight with Him in the material world, and that was the reason the sages came to see Him and accidentally the doorkeepers were cursed.

It was the Lord’s desire to send them to the material world, not perpetually, but for some time. Therefore, just as on a theatrical stage someone takes the part of enemy to the proprietor of the stage, although the play is for a short time and there is no permanent enmity between the servant and the proprietor, so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families.

That a devotee should come into an atheistic family is surprising, but it is simply a show. After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here.

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuëöha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord.

Lord Buddha, for example, was an incarnation, yet he preached atheism: “There is no God.” But actually there was a plan behind this, as explained in the Bhägavatam.

………………………………………………………………………………………………

Notes by Bhaktajan in support of the opinion that the Jiva originates as a person in Vaikuntha, before falling into the material world:

There are two classes of humans: suras & asuras.

Note the use of the terms, "it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viñëu who descend [who fall] from Vaikuëöha do not actually fall [don't fall]"

"no one falls from Vaikuëöha"

—[yet these verses are about two guys who where cursed to fall, irregardless of who-what-why, these guys were sent on combat missions].

"Jaya and Vijaya, descended . . . to fight"

". . . as Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira says, . . . that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuëöha seems unbelievable" —but Kulavana and Associates can explain the unbelievable for us!

" . . . Even if sometimes cursed or blessed, they are always liberated . . . "

"Without the Lord’s sanction, nothing can happen"

—[except you could leave the party and claim that you have forgotten who the host was or how gracious he was]

". . . Lord Kåñëa destroyed whatever sinful reactions were left in them because of the curse of the brähmaëas . . . "

—[sin? I thought it was just a pastime?]

"nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world" —[what about suras, sages, Brahmas, Bhagavatas, Christ?]

" . . . He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy . . . "

—[is this anybody's idea of bliss, nectar and eternal life in heaven? Would anyone hope for such service?]

". . . not perpetually, but for some time . . ."

"so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families"

—[after eons of repeated births in the material world no NEW COMER to vaikuntha is going to volunteer for this duty! Don't you agree? God would have to "curse" me if he thinks I am going back to the material world! Don't you agree?]

………………………………………………………………………………………………..

So, again, let us not forget, The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuëöha planet, for it is the eternal abode. —especially Jaya & Vijaya, who presumably would deny they wanted to go to the material world.

I'm sure that, during his stay, Ravana did his yoga in the morning and ate only veggies and was celibate too!

………………………………………………………………………………………………..

At this point let me remind the reader of the time line of Jaya & Vijaya's repeated births & stay in the material world:

Hiraëyäkña fought with Viraha-avatara during the devastation before the 7<SUP>th</SUP> Manu's reign.

Hiranyakasipur was son of Diti and Kasyapa-muni and step-brother of Vivasvan [Vivasvan is the present Manu ---the #7 of 14 Manus in this day of Brahma].

Kasyapa-muni was son of Marici-prajapati.

Marici-prajapati was Lord Brahma's son.

So, Hiranyakasipur's son Prahlada was born to his father Hiranyakasipur approx. 120 Million earth years ago (120,000,000 B.C.) or 10,800 years of the Devatas.

Rävaëa and Kumbhakarëa appeared during Lord Ramacandra's pastimes approx 10,000 earth

years before Dwapara-yuga began—approx 869,000 earth years ago (867,000 B.C.) or 2,400 years of the Devatas.

Çiçupäla and Dantavakra appeared during Lord Krishna's pastimes approx 5,000 earth

years ago (3,000 B.C.).

Sooooo, Jaya & Vijaya's repeated births & stay in the material world lasted only 115 Million year.

(120 Million minus 5,000 equals 119,995,000 Million year surjorn in the material world! —all without having "fallen" into the material world).

It should now seem clear how Nuns and Monks were easily encouraged to stay on task, right!

They fell into the material world but they did not fall into the material world. Maybe we need the BBT editors to give it another look? Maybe Srila Prabhupada just lacks insight?

My last word: Just as we have all consciously made bad mistakes in life—we have always had the free-will to be naively make the wrong choice to enter the material world—do we think that it is not possible to perform just one of the four defects of a conditioned soul when one is a spiritual resident of Vaikuntha?

Also, again, the time factor is the pacifying understanding of such a long stay in the material world—Time is one of the 5 subjects discussed in the Gita by Krishna! When the long lost soul returns to Vaikuntha it is like he was gone for only time equal to the 'blink of an eye'!

GODSEED · May 1, 2008

SHREERÄDHÄKRSHNACHAITANYÄY NAMAH

GURU SHREEGAURÄNGA MAHÄPRABHAVE NAMAH

SHREENITYÄNANDA PRABHAVE NAMAH

SHREESHIVASHIVÄY NAMAH

JAY JAY SHREEBHAKTA VRUDN...

Is Golok a black hole? After all, nothing can come out of a black hole too. I have seen this topic so many times that I thought of having some fun.

wow, that is sheer rascaldom!

a product of neo-athiestic-scietistic generation!

rebellious researchers! :mad2:

brazen and vulgar fun! must say!

----------------------------

first of all, we havent fallen in material world, we have come here by our own volition. we could not have come from Goloka because, on who goes there, never returns, and we all are rotting here with lumps of desire multiplying into miillion each seconds, formatting our future births!

ShreeKripälujee teaches that, since time immemorial, we have turned our face from ShreeKrshna and HIS devotion, due to harboring individual and selfish desire of sense-gratification! when that began? well, if we could fathom that, probably we'd not be bound at all!

we should not try to stretch beyond our limits guys!

its realy beyond logic!

such questions are mere indirect atheism only!

believe more than 100% in the Vaishnavas.

Rämasukh däsajee said, to always seek intellectually satisfying reply is slavery of intellectuality!

dont be a slave of mind!

one is better a servant of ShreeKrshna!

because even if Bhagavän Shankara gives someone the instruments with which someone might fathom such answers, such answers would in return raise billion other questions, and ultimately that poor slave of intellectuality would be even more perplexed!

jignäsä is not wrong...but at the same time, one must understand its own capacity to understand otherwise jignäsä becomes pari-kalpanä!

however there is a nice explanation here...

http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/creation_of_the_universe.htm

SHREENITÄIGARAPREMÄNANDE...SHREEGAURAHARIBOL!

Kulapavana · May 1, 2008

Practice what you preach Kulapavana,there are many advanced humble devotees who preach the facts as Prabhupada has taught them because Prabhupada rejected the idea the living entity originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (a dormant state of individual consciousness)

if they just present their misconceptions to others without offending Vaishnavas, I merely debate the arguments they use. that is fair game in my book. like I said, Prabhupada tried to present KC in a way that would appeal to people who had Christian and Jewish upbringing, by stressing the similarities between KC and their former religion.

Vigraha · May 1, 2008

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness ,but rather a division of time.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

Srila Prabhupada –“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada – “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada CLEARLY explains what this means -

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint wihin the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie, putting the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here.On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

I would like to humbly correctly point out to Kulapavana that it is not those on this thread saying we are eternally situated in Goloka and presently only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are not there, it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us that our original position is in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen.

Your argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with me. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all. Lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka (Krshnaloka).

cbrahma · May 1, 2008

Why is the term 'fallen' ever used if nobody falls down from the spiritual world? And believe me, the word comes up all over the place in the Bhagavatam and Prabhupada's purports in such phrases as 'fallen conditioned soul'

Vigraha · May 1, 2008

Why is the term 'fallen' ever used if nobody falls down from the spiritual world? And believe me, the word comes up all over the place in the Bhagavatam and Prabhupada's purports in such phrases as 'fallen conditioned soul'

Their consciousness is fallen which simply means one chooses to 'forget' Krsna.

This means they stop being 'aware' of Krishna and sub-consciously manifest their own imaginary existence.

This is just like being in a coma where you forget your present body and its identify and become only aware of the comatised dream state

'Fall down' from Vaikuntha however is a choice to remember who you really are serving Krsna, or forget who you are and opt for your own imaginary dreamworld catered for in the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna in the process and your 'svarupa' eternal body in Krsnaloka serving Krsna.

This is what fall down from Krsnaloka really means - falling down 'consciously' (similar to to being so absorbed in your dreams while sleeping in your present material body, you forget that body and think you are the dream) to their own non Krsna Conscious thoughts, imaginings, desires and plans

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