How have we fallen in this material world?

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Their consciousness is fallen which simply means one chooses to 'forget' Krsna.

 

This means they stop being 'aware' of Krishna and sub-consciously manifest their own imaginary existence.

 

This is just like being in a coma where you forget your present body and its identify and become only aware of the comatised dream state

 

'Fall down' from Vaikuntha however is a choice to remember who you really are serving Krsna, or forget who you are and opt for your own imaginary dreamworld catered for in the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna in the process and your 'svarupa' eternal body in Krsnaloka serving Krsna.

 

This is what fall down from Krsnaloka really means - falling down 'consciously' (similar to to being so absorbed in your dreams while sleeping in your present material body, you forget that body and think you are the dream) to their own non Krsna Conscious thoughts, imaginings, desires and plans

 

 

 

The place of material dreams

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The dreaming Maha Vishnu, His mahat-tattva dream-creation of material universes is where our mundane dreams go to be given form and temporary reality for as long as we choose to forget Krsna.

 

[Beggar 0]

 

'Fall down' from Vaikuntha however is a choice to remember who you really are serving Krsna, or forget who you are and opt for your own imaginary dreamworld catered for in the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna in the process and your 'svarupa' eternal body in Krsnaloka serving Krsna.

 

But we haven't ever found a quote where Prabhupada would say that while you are dreaming your material existence that you 'svarupa' eternal body in Krsnaloka is serving Krsna. After all this time and debate I get the point that you are making but to put in the words that you are using is too contrary to the Gaudiya siddhanta. Remember every Gaudiya knows that the jivas existence in the material world is a dream-like state. There are polar opposite ways of viewing the origin of the soul and one way is that there actually is no origin since the soul is eternal. The other is the tatastha-brahmajyoti explanation that you mistake for impersonalism. One can acknowledge the eternal present without decrying the origin description given in sastra and this is the road taken by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur in his Jaiva Dharma. As we are all spiritual descendents of the Thakur it becomes our duty to also hamonize apparent opposites while recognizing that Krsna Himself is the ultimate harmonizing principle.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

But we haven't ever found a quote where Prabhupada would say that while you are dreaming your material existence that you 'svarupa' eternal body in Krsnaloka is serving Krsna.

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides

It's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended within the eternal present because of consciously falling out of sync with the ETERNAL PRESENT’ of Krsnaloka where their 'permanent 'real' bodily self is serving Krsna. (at least it is this way to those who have fallen from the eternal present realm)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates nothing is ever suspended there.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

'Try to understand', as Prabhupada would say.

Here is a bizarre video explaining just on the mundane material mind level how time is distorted, where a second can appear like hours in the experiment in the 1950s. Wait for the 1955 experiment segement.

 

- The Beyond Within [Part 3 of 9 ]

[Beggar 0]

Sarva, I think that part of your frustration last year was that you felt that you were not being heard. Now you are, at least by me, although I'm not sure you're seeing some of my points. Some of these things are so subtle and delicate that it's best to use the direct words of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur and other recognized pure devotees. There is something very true in what you are saying, it's just that you sometimes go beyond what Prabhupada has said on the subject. Remember this is not empiric knowledge and all these things are to realize by chanting Hare Krsna and performing devotional service.

[AncientMariner 0]

Help! I've fallen and I can't get up.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Remember this is not empiric knowledge and all these things are to realize by chanting Hare Krsna and performing devotional service.

 

That is the answer to all this whole debate.

 

Anyway, did you watch the video explaining 'time'?

[Beggar 0]

No , where is that video? One time I listened to "Time has Come Today" by the Chambers Brothers with Jayatirtha. Does that qualify me?

[Sarva gattah 0]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Beggar

No , where is that video? One time I listened to "Time has Come Today" by the Chambers Brothers with Jayatirtha. Does that qualify me?

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Ha ha ha, very funny but tragically sad, Jayatirtha tried to go from kindergarten to university over night so to speak and went mad on LSD, in fact we had to convince him in Mayapur in 1982 not to commit suicide, but that’s another story.

Anyway the video clearly states that there is NO artificial means to understand this and so does Prabhupada, remember this was made in 1955 and never released to the public until a few years ago. Back then in the 50s, the CIA also did highly secretive experiments on the human body also to see the effect of LSD.

 

This is way before the experiments became wide spread, abused and taken dangerously in the mid sixties by 'beat nik (which comes from the Russian word Sputnik in 1958, referring to individuals who are way out there or spaced out, derived from the satellite the Soviets had launched in 1957) and hippie (The word hippie is derives from the word hipster and was initially used to describe beatniks who were taking LSD who had moved into San Francisco's Height-Ashbury district in the mid 1960s) America' when it became a free for all.

I am certainly not advocating any material means to understand this because as your second last posts intelligently explains, only by service and surrender to Krsna (GOD) can you understand who you really are.

The video only gives another angle of understand material time of past, present and future other than the time distortions we are used to when we dream in our material bodies. <?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Actually in due respect to the younger members on this site, You and I have been around in ISKCON for nearly 40 years, other than theist and some of the moderators, not many will understand all this.

But you are right, as another old saying goes, 'you can take a horse to water, but you can not force it to drink the water, only the horse has the choice to do that".

The following I thought is the closest materialistic Professors and scientists have came in explaining the variegated phenomenon of time in the material universe.

In the future when ISKCON historians study the mid 1960s, they cannot deny that LSD opened up the minds of American youth (1968 in Australia) and it made them question their existence. Even at the 1967 Rathayatra festival a devotee (name with held) put LSD in the sweet rice.

 

Back then naturally, most devotees new very little about Spiritual life, they never understood that God is not as cheap as to be found by taking a drug like LSD.

 

Ironically, two years before that, right at the very beginning of this flood of LSD coming down to the general population from scientist, academics, writers, poets, musicians, doctors, psychiatrists with also Kesey on the West Coast of America and Leary on the East Coast in 1965, Prabhupada came to America and nearly all the first disciples he met had all taken LSD.

AND WHAT WAS PRABHUPADA'S MESSAGE? You don't need to take anything, just chant Hare Krsna and eat heeps of prasadam.

I thought I best explain myself here because it is the experiments on 'time; experienced by the human biological vessel I am only interested in and not LSD!

So the following is simply a very mundane presentation giving one and understanding of 'time distortion experiments' to help one realize that there is millions of different time dimensions in the material universes, but two basic levels of time in the total creation of Lord Krsna -

1. The 'eternal present' in imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka, where a trillion mahat-tattva dream creations of Maha-Vishnu, that would seem an almost eternity of material time, would appear as no more than a mere moment

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva that has further distortions of time in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems were there is even more dimensions of material time and space that is different from our experience and perception of time on our middle planet.

 

PaddyDX

LSD - The Beyond Within [Part 3 of 9 ]

 

PaddyDX

LSD - The Beyond Within [Part 4 of 9]

[Beggar 0]

In 1969 I dropped some high quality acid and experienced a juxtoposition of time. IOW I experienced the evening coming before the afternoon. That night I was babbeling to all my friends that "time is an illusion" and laughing. The main problem was that I was often pressured by my friends (some of whom later joined ISKCON) to overuse LSD. Later on after reading parts of BTGs and Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita As It Is, I would contemplate what I had read (in an almost subliminal or subconscious way) on psychedelics. Later on I could empathize with some of Jayatirtha's experiences in the early 80's but I could understand his basic error. If a Western devotee for some reason again took a psychedelic drug in a moment of weakness and doubt and that substance seemed to help them then that is more or less innocent. His big mistake was to make a plan or system to make psychedelics a form of sadhana. Besides being an aparadha, it was a recipe for disaster because of the nature of psychedelics themselves. The result was complete madness. One can say that he certainly lost his head, no pun intended.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

In 1969 I dropped some high quality acid and experienced a juxtoposition of time. IOW

I experienced the evening coming before the afternoon. That night I was babbeling to all my friends that "time is an illusion" and laughing. The main problem was that I was often pressured by my friends (some of whom later joined ISKCON) to overuse LSD.

Later on after reading parts of BTGs and Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita As It Is, I would contemplate what I had read (in an almost subliminal or subconscious way) on psychedelics.

Later on I could empathize with some of Jayatirtha's experiences in the early 80's but I could understand his basic error.

If a Western devotee for some reason again took a psychedelic drug in a moment of weakness and doubt and that substance seemed to help them then that is more or less innocent.

His big mistake was to make a plan or system to make psychedelics a form of sadhana. Besides being an aparadha, it was a recipe for disaster because of the nature of psychedelics themselves.

The result was complete madness.

One can say that he certainly lost his head, no pun intended.<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/Gary/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/images/smilies/smile.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

We are going a little off track a bit here, but I suppose one more post on this subject will not hurt

 

Interesting reading, the only way to get around this comment you made ' took a psychedelic drug in a moment of weakness and doubt and that substance seemed to help them then that is more or less innocent.' in todays world of 2008, is under medical supervision, otherwise it's wrong.

Now let me explain.

The present ISKCON leadership are advocating that if a devotee is experiencing 'mental problems', they have now acknowledged their method of dealing with it in the past, simply did not work on many devotees (like ONLY chant Hare Krishna prabhu).

In I remember in 1973 Madhudvisa would try to help one mentally disturbed devotee by getting him to chant in the Temple room for 15 hours a day in an attempt to help him. In kirtan Madhudvisa would clang his cartels around that devotee as if he was attempting to unpossess him.

Madhudvisa attempts, even though done with good intensions, were actually an example of sentimentality without knowledge because all that devotee really needed was a good doctor.

If a devotee has no faith that the process of hearing and chanting is not going to work, then another avenue of help must be sort to help this devotee reach the correct standard.

For that to happen, his material body and mind has to be working properly.

That same devotee again had serious mental problems in 1978, he was offered medical help and medication but the ISKCON leadership at the time rejected that help. They would not allow the psychiatric help he was offered and needed.

Once again the method they only offered and only believed was necessary was chanting Hare Krishna and eating Prasadam. They also yelled at him to ‘snap out of it and get out of Maya’

However today the approach is completely different. The present day devotees have realized that Krishna helps them who help themselves and some devotee’s material bodies need help other than what devotee and the process of Krishna Consciousness offers, they now accept that the material body and brain substance may medical need.

As a result of ISKCON’s new instruction to seek help from doctors in the 21<SUP>st</SUP> Century, some devotees are now on anti-depressants, cholesterol and blood pressure drugs to help the material body work better so they can do their devotional service. The devotee that ISKCON’S ‘good intensions’ could not help back in the 70s, did eventually get the help he needed away from ISKCON and is now on anti-depressants..

Now the following is not at all the surprising to me.

In America the ban has been lifted off trials with LSD since 2006. They no longer call it LSD due to its bad reputation. Scientists are attempting to streamline the drug as well as MDMA and a herb called Salvia and use it as another form of anti-depressant; they have already discovered back in the 50s that the best cure for alcoholism is LSD

There is now, in 2008, a resurgence of interest among researchers in the medical uses for LSD, psilocybin and MDMA. Clinical trials have shown promising results for relieving crippling "cluster" and other vascular headaches, as well as pain, suffering, anxiety and depression

The results of several studies into the use of these drugs for medical and therapeutic use were announced at a recent international symposium on LSD in Basel, Switzerland

Now a new generation of researchers are cautiously guiding Hoffmann’s earlier experiments back to where it started – as a medication for migraine relief as well as eliminating anxiety and depression

Rick Doblin is the founder of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, a registered non-profit organization in Sarasota, Florida, that assists researchers in facilitating government approval for psychedelic research in humans.

"These substances and these states of mind don't inherently make people drop out of society, or want to start a counter-culture. After several generations the culture is better able to accept and integrate these states of mind and the ways we're trying to help people with them. –" Doblin said in a 2007 interview.

 

Anyway we have gone of the subject here of understanding the difference between the 'eternal presents' in Krsnaloka and the past, present and future' of the maha-tattva, but if the medications discussed is there and can help a devotee do his or her service due to there body and brain substance troubling them, then why not use the medication even if it is derived from LSD. We already use codeine that is derived froom Opium.

 

Gopal Krsna Maharaj was saved recently by the modern technological advances in medicine. He would of died in the 1960s with the condition he had. But naturally a devotee will say it is all Krsna's mercy and not a blade of grass moves without the sanction of the Lord.

[bhaktajan 0]

Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

1. The 'eternal present' in imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka, where a trillion mahat-tattva dream creations of Maha-Vishnu, that would seem an almost eternity of material time, would appear as no more than a mere moment

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva that has further distortions of time in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems were there is even more dimensions of material time and space that is different from our experience and perception of time on our middle planet.

.................................................................................................

To this I'd like to add the following co-factor [if that's the correct word]:

The "Absolute" state of reality is "indivisible".

While, the components comprising the material world/Maha-tattva are described as finitely divisible. This is not a difficult meta-physical statement.

 

Each of the eight layers of the Brahmanda's shell-like covering are each progessively 10 times thicker than the preceeding layer.

 

So, standing back and viewing the Brahmanda from an outside POV, one sees that the journey from the outer edge, through the ten successive concentric onion-like layers, past the devalokas, and then on to the center of a Brahmanda; takes one further and further into sub-atomic space & time, and still, again continues to sub-divide "further and further into sub-atomic space & time" ad infinitum.

 

Infinite "sub-dividing" of the Cosmic Material Energy and thus a "world within a world within a world etc . . . " is the nature of existential worlds that are temporary, transient, subjective, petty, relative [non-absolute], also known as: "in the well consciousness".

[krsna 3]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maha Visnu is so cool!

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, thst seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha)

 

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet.

[bija 0]

 

In America the ban has been lifted off trials with LSD since 2006. They no longer call it LSD due to its bad reputation. Scientists are attempting to streamline the drug as well as MDMA and a herb called Salvia and use it as another form of anti-depressant; they have already discovered back in the 50s that the best cure for alcoholism is LSD

There is now, in 2008, a resurgence of interest among researchers in the medical uses for LSD, psilocybin and MDMA. Clinical trials have shown promising results for relieving crippling "cluster" and other vascular headaches, as well as pain, suffering, anxiety and depression

The results of several studies into the use of these drugs for medical and therapeutic use were announced at a recent international symposium on LSD in Basel, Switzerland

Now a new generation of researchers are cautiously guiding Hoffmann’s earlier experiments back to where it started – as a medication for migraine relief as well as eliminating anxiety and depression posted by sarva

LSD was first sent to Sandoz pharmaceuticals in Switzerland for trial and testing clinically. Sandoz was then the producer of one of the most cutting edge anti-psychotics of the time Mellirell (forgoten how to spell it).

 

One of the researchers for Sandoz of the time was Stanislav Grof. Grof is one of the greatest modern psychiatrists today, and a progressive in Transpersonal Psychology. Transpersonal has much room for the spiritual dimension and mystic encounter.

 

http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=stanislav+grof&hl=en&sitesearch=#

 

When LSD research eventually became illegal , Stanislav Grof began studies with the Eslan Institute how to continue the ground breaking work, without drugs. After much trial he devised Holotropic Breathwork. All this is on the net if you are interested.

 

Stanislav Grof was raised an atheist, and after his first trial with LSD had a profound awakening to the spiritual dimension of man. He is one of my favorite clinicians. A truly amazing man.

 

Stanislav and his wife are the founders of the Spiritual Emergence Network. Which assists people with emergence issues such as rapid awakening etc. Transpersonalists in thought do not see illness as such, but more you could say the flowering and awakening of full actualization and the challnges that may arise.

 

http://www.spiritualemergence.net/pages/related.html

 

Salvia Divanorum is the most potent of all entheogens on planet earth. Ayahuasca is also ground breaking in freeing people from neurosis.

 

An interesting movie on South America Ayahuasca Shamanism is

http://otherworlds.jankounen.com/

 

Ayahuasca contains DMT. This is definately not a party drug, but is actually a very active chemical that naturally produces in the brain (near the third eye area). DMT is believed to be the chemical in relation to NDE, and other life transforming mystic experiences that can occur naturally during the course of life.

 

It is good that science is now willing to investigate Shaman culture which has held these treatments within its culture in the form of rituals for thousands of years.

 

It is also good Iskcon and other religionists have grown away from their naieve treatment of psychological disorders. The naieve religionsist can do more harm than good sometimes to those with diagnosable psychological difficulty.

 

You can read a little about ayahuasca indians in my Synesthesia Thread under the Health section of this forum.

 

Personally I live with synesthesia which some of these shamanic cultures also encounter as a community, either under the influence of entheogens or not under the influence. This awakening of extended faculties of the senses, spiritual emergence work, and yoga is of special interest to me. I have naturally developed synesthesia - there is some cutting edge research in the last years on this little known faculty of the senses and mind. More solid research will appear over the coming years no doubt.

 

Modern science seems to be moving into deeper research into these ancient cultures and their wisdom, and are finding surprising results. Ibhoga for example has a very instant high success rate for heroin addicts. Under correct guidance these entheogens can give the person deep insight into themselves on a very transformative level. Western science is just beginning to realize shamanaic culture is not just a bunch of hoodoo mumbo jumbo.

 

Infact with insight into these experiences and the old culture one can begin to perceive the nature and workings of the mind in deeper and deeper levels. In fact with these insights one can begin his own depth work with very little teaching from others. Truly transformative.These ancient cultures have based their societies growth and harmony on these insights - it is their spiritual culture. In this 21st century many westerners are also spontaneouly awakening to similar mind function - even if rarely known or acknowledged yet. Infact research is showing the mind is very moldable structure - and can be cultivated in its sensory abilities. What to say of psycholigical depth and ability.

 

By the way - I am not a user of entheogens. But do have some sacred cacti as ornaments in my house, for pleasure. Just to be near nature is enough, to be near its sacredness. God has given us all medicine in nature. And, the synesthete already naturally lives in the realm of visions. There is no need of the plant as such for the insight - this is my encounter anyhow.

 

I have realized these words first hand from experience - after an extended journey, over the course of a decade. As a Hare Krsna devotee I do not find it expedient to reject all else, when infact such diverse wisdom can be used to assist in development of balanced Krsna consciousness.

 

Here is some Ayahuasca art to give a glimpse -

 

[ATTACH]1713[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]1714[/ATTACH]

 

 

[Sarva gattah 0]

Interesting however, in this day and age, if one is suffering from mental disorders, then medication may be necessary to help one function.

I believe if anti-depressants or blood pressure medication helps one perform their duty, then what is the harm. Just like we see a doctor if we have a broken leg or get a heart bye pass operation so the blood can move more freely around the body.

If one is sick, see a doctor or psychiatrist.

This was not encouraged in the early years of ISKCON when dealing with mental illness, but is supported today by the GBC. Naturally, they say to always remember Krishna and never forget him, if one is receiving psychiatric help. Once again, God helps those who help themselves

I am aware of even Prabhupada told the devotees to get a Mataji (a young girl devotee) out of a psychiatric hospital in Melbourne in 1972.

When Prabhupada came to Melbourne Temple in march 72, he ordered the devotees to somehow get her out and sit her in the Temple room, and just get her to chant Hare Krishna. We however couldn't get her out back then because the government could commit anyone against his or her will. It's not like that now.

Now we must understand that back then, medical care was in its infancy, heart bypass surgery was never even heard of back then and the only anti-depressant was 'lithium;, 'shock treatment 'and 'deep sleep therapy'. So was LSD until it was banned in 1969.

Prabhupada new that 'shock treatment' lithium and 'deep sleep' therapies back then would totally fry ones brain and destroy ones chances of taking to Krishna Conscious.

A few years later it was revealed how hundred died from the controversial barbaric 'deep sleep therapy’ in Melbourne Hollywood later made a film about

Today though it is a different world, in the last ten years doctors have learnt that the brain, like any other malfunctioning organ of the body CAN be treated and Prabhupada’s instructions back then also apply, but now WITH the help of medical science.

 

Such advancements did not exist when Prabhupada was here.

If the same thing happened today, then the young Mataji SHOULD get medical help, take her prescription of possibly Cipramil -(excellent medication for mental illness, but there are many others that can be more effective and suit the individual) and also chant Hare Krishna

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates.

 

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness ,but rather a division of time.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

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Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

Srila Prabhupada –“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada – “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada CLEARLY explains what this means -

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint wihin the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie, putting the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here.On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

I would like to humbly correctly point out to Kulapavana that it is not those on this thread saying we are eternally situated in Goloka and presently only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are not there, it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us that our original position is in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen.

Your argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with me. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all. Lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka (Krshnaloka).

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>1. The 'eternal present' in the imperishable Vaikuntha and Krsnaloka Planets, can never be compared to the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu where the time span of a trillion mahat-tattva material universes, thst seem an almost eternity in material time, would only appear no more than a mere moment of time in the eternal Kingdom of God (Vaikuntha)

 

2. And the divided time of 'past, present and future' of the perishable mahat-tattva, that has a further distortions of time and space in the higher, middle and lower material planetary systems, were there is even more dimensions of material time and space within the mahat-tattva, different again from our experience and perception of time on our middle earth planet. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[bija 0]

Interesting however, in this day and age, if one is suffering from mental disorders, then medication may be necessary to help one function. by sarva

I fully agree Sarva. Have seen many people not take medicine and remain unstable. I take a very very low dose of risperdal (risperidone) for the last 7 years. Some people dont like it, my neighbour here changed to cipramil, seems to be better for him.

 

The mistake many make is they dont stay on the modern medicine long enough. Time is a great healer and these modern treatments get more effective day by day. Risperdal is an amazing drug. I am very consciously aware of my mind states, and have seen it take great effect in well being and stillness of mind.

 

New research into salvia, ayahuasca and others as you mentioned may possibly make very good medicines oneday - that are more theruepetic in nature. Giving insight. From what I have observed through assocaiting and serving in this field, is that people who gain self insight recover much better, than those with no self insight.

 

Infact that is why many recover as they get older research is showing. These news medicines possibly will work on insight as well as dopamine - serotonine etc. I bet you they begin to undertand the workings of DMT that naturally occurs in the frontal lobe of the brain through this research. Its almost the spiritual centre of the brain and gives light.

 

Being open about these topics can be misunderstood by the ignorant. But personally well into recovery I feel more impelled to be open so people undertsand, and those who need help may hear our stories.

 

My experience of the 'lock up institution' was in the days before things got better. My god it was tough going. I got a rare syndrome from malpractice that kills one in four (no kidding - I have medical records - neuroleptic malignant syndrome). I had to learn to pyshically walk and use knife and fork and wipe my ass after that - months of rehab. Nearly left....miracle I survived. At one point doctors at the main hospital called family in - it looked like I was going. Gee I could tell you some stories of the system. I am sure many of us have them.

 

The sad thing is all I had was 'spiritual emergence crisis'. Major misdiagnosis. Back then they did not know any better.

 

y.s.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

I got a rare syndrome from malpractice that kills one in four...

 

wow... that must have been quite an ordeal.

 

the mechanics of the link between body and soul are still very poorly understood, even among the devotees. so many things affect that link, and certainly some modern medicine seem to be helping a lot of people. One must judge these things by the results they produce. You can look at the way these substances induce goodness, passion, or ignorance, and judge accordingly. Most intoxicants are tamasic, some are rajasic, but the vedic soma juice was inducing mode of goodness. It was like the 'spice' of the Arrakis

[bija 0]

great points lol:)

 

it was an ordeal...but praise bhakti...recovered and at peace:bounce:

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

My experience of the 'lock up institution' was in the days before things got better. My god it was tough going.

 

I got a rare syndrome from malpractice that kills one in four (no kidding - I have medical records - neuroleptic malignant syndrome). I had to learn to pyshically walk and use knife and fork and wipe my ass after that - months of rehab. Nearly left....miracle I survived.

 

At one point doctors at the main hospital called family in - it looked like I was going. Gee I could tell you some stories of the system. I am sure many of us have them.

 

The sad thing is all I had was 'spiritual emergence crisis'. Major misdiagnosis.

 

Back then they did not know any better.

 

y.s.

 

Yeah, we all have our stories of suffering but your experience is very moving. My point is, even though pain and suffering makes us more sincere in finding a spiritual solution, we should never neglect the vessel we are in that we have achieved after millions of births.

If the body is broken, see if the medical technology is available to fix it. In many cases like cancer, they have yet to discover a cure. What ever helps us chant and serve is all good and that includes material science.

Without it we would not have all those beautiful books, Prabhupada would not of spread the movement so quickly if it was not for aeroplanes

So, ignore those people, even devotees, who put down medical technology like inoculations that have saved millions.

Be careful of religious fanatics whose superstition denies medical technology and science. Such religionists in the past who denied medical break throughs as heresy caused the dark ages.

And I’m afraid that some devotees from both ISKCON and the Gaudiya Matha are turning away from scientific medical break throughs and ONLY going down the path of Ayurvedic Medicine.

When I was in India in the 70s, a devotee got cholera, at first Ayurvedic Medicines were used but in the end his life was saved by modern vaccines and antibiotics

Ayurvedic Medicines have their place but if they don’t work, then see a 21<SUP>st</SUP> century medical doctor. And always chant Hare Krishna.

 

[bija 0]

If the body is broken, see if the medical technology is available to fix it. In many cases like cancer, they have yet to discover a cure. What ever helps us chant and serve is all good and that includes material science. by prabhu

 

Most definately Sarva. Actually I have strong influence in my sangha that ayurveda is something I should do instead. They do not undertstand how good risperdal has been for me. If I could say it this way - life transforming. Wouldn't it be a great shame to destroy years of hard work in recovery, of happiness and wholeness - and have to rebuild all that again. These people have no idea how much internal work that takes to rebuild. They have no personal insight and encounter of certain suffering... but still they sprout their ideas about so freely!!!

 

This 21st century will give many blessings for those who suffer medical conditions. You wait and see, the medicines they make from plants such as ayahuasca treatment in the next ten years. These drugs will allow people to awaken in many ways. It cant be ignorance like the fundemantalist mind says. Track down the movie called Other Wolds by Jan Kounen - it will give insight into future psycho-active treatment - if not modified somehwat! I have researched these things to a certain degree - during my 14 year recovery process.

 

A complimentary approach to medicine is best I feel - using modern medicines, healthy lifestyles, good diets, relaxation - and ofcourse deep realized spiritual cultivation. You cant go wrong. I studied 'age care' at a tertiary college about complimentary medicine - complimentary therapy and practice is balanced and sensible. As yoga practicioners we have much to give in wisdom if we choose well.

[tackleberry 1]

 

but the vedic soma juice was inducing mode of goodness. It was like the 'spice' of the Arrakis

 

Is this the same as marijuana?

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guru can show you the way out of

the place of material dreams

 

 

 

 

The dreaming Maha Vishnu, His mahat-tattva dream-creation of material universes is where our mundane dreams go to be given form and temporary reality for as long as we choose to forget Krsna.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

When Prabhupada CLEARLY says 'you are already there in the spiritual sky, he clarifies that by saying relationships with Krsna’, meaning our svarupa body is eternally there, but our memory of who we are, is presently covered by the eternal presence polluted by our added creation of past and future. This immediately places ‘our awareness’ within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu known as the perishable material creation.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are.

We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are.

We do not grow consciously out of a plainsheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or reestablishing who we are originally.

Srila Prabhupada does not mean we spring to consciousness from a so-called dormant state as Narayana Maharaj and Sridar Maharaj teaches. The dormant state in the Brahmajyoti they refer to was attained AFTER we we left the material world as impersonalists.

 

So this means, as Srila Prabhupada has always told us, that long, long, long, long before being in the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, we were in the material world and before that were aware of who we really are as our 'svarupa' body with Krishna within Krsnaloka.

Note: The bracketed [ - ] was inspired by the writings of Bahushira dasa, Bhanu Swami, Dr. Santosh Kumari (Sanskrit Gold Medalist) and Dr. Sudershan Kaushik (Sanskrit Gold Medalist) with a few extra comments from me.

[ - It is stated in the Skanda Purana 4.95.37 it is stated that if one breaks Ekadasi one can fall from Vaikuntha.

In the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krsna Janma Khanda, Ch. 111, Verse 4, and 5, Radha is speaking to Mother Yasoda:

Of the five types of knowledge, what shall I say to you?

I speak the best of all devotional knowledge please listen.

Oh good lady do not become fearless by the advantage of Sri Krsna, an imperfect yogi (bad ascetic) can also possibly fall from Goloka.

Also, in Krsna JanmaKhanda, Ch. 126, Verse 59, Sri Radha is speaking to Sri Krsna:

Oh Lord, after reaching extreme height, one certainly falls. The violence of the Vaishnavas results in misfortune.

In the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 59, Yamaraja is speaking to Savitri (Mother of the Vedas)

Whoever in the month of Kaartika offers a lamp of ghee to Hari enjoys in Vaikuntha (Hari Mandira) for as many years equivalent to the number of seconds (palas-a pala is 24 seconds) for which the lamp is burnt.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 60 -

Born again, he certainly attains Vishnubhakti. He becomes immensely rich, endowed with clear vision and glory.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse 74 -

He, who performs the vrata of Krsna Janmastami, is relieved of the sins of hundreds of births. There is no doubt about it.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse81-

Whoever celebrates Rama Navami in Bharat enjoys in Vaikuntha for seven Manvantaras.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse82 -

He then takes birth again and obtains devotion to Rama for certain; he then becomes the best of those who control their senses and a great follower of dharma.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse90 - 94

He who makes a Rasamandala on the full moon of Kartika, and makes forms of a hundred Gopas, a hundred Gopis, and worships Krsna along with Radha in a stone form and worshiping Him with a sixteen items, will live in Goloka for the life span of Brahma.

Returning to Bharata, he will certainly attain bhakti to the Lord and His mantras. Quitting his body and returning to Goloka, he attains the form of Hari and becomes one of His attendants free from birth and death. He never falls again.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse95 -

Whoever observes Ekadasi in either phase of the moon enjoys in Vaikuntha for the life span of Brahma.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch.27, verse96

Coming back to Bharata, he will certainly attain bhakti to the Lord. He will again go to Vaikuntha and not fall, meaning he/she goes back to his/hers original (meaning the form they were created within the ‘eternal present as, which is paradoxically beginningless and endless) position in Vaikuntha and never falls again- na tasya patanam bhavet).

Prakriti Khanda, Ch. 26, verse109 -

He, who recites the name of Vishnu or gives it to someone in Bharat, enjoys in Vaikuntha (Vishnuloka) for as many Yugas as names he has recited.

Prakriti Khanda, Ch. 26, verse109 – 110 -

 

 

 

Tatah punarihaagatya Vishnubhaktim labhed dhruvam Yadi Naaraayanaksetre phalam kotigunam labhet

 

 

Tatah - thereafter; punar-iha-agatya - again here having come; Vishnubhaktim - devotion to Vishnu; labhet -will attain, get; dhruvam - certainly, surely; yadi-if; Narayana-ksetre -in Narayana region; phalam -merit; results; kotigunam -ten million times; labhet - will attain Returning to Earth he attains bhakti to Vishnu for certain. If the jiva does this in a place of Narayana, he obtains ten million times the merit (result).

The Sanskrit words that are used in these verses of Brahma Vaivarta Purana makes it very clear what is being said about the Jivas actually falling from Vaikuntha, Goloka and then taking birth on Earth. Finally, they return to Goloka or Vaikuntha leaving Earth behind.

Select verses are given again and again so the reader can get a bird’s eye view of the repetitive phrases that drives the points home so clearly.

Krsna Janma Khanda, ch.111, verse 5, the word patanam meaning fall, or falldown is used.

The question may be asked who falls down? The kuyogi, imperfect yogi, the bad ascetic, the one who has left devotional service. And who are they? They are the jivas who misuse their freewill.

That is why the word sambhavet is used. It means liable or possible however, some jivas don’t misuse their freewill.

Those who choose to misuse their freewill fall to the material world and they are therefore imperfect because they gave up their perfect position as nitya-siddha.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in Jaiva Dharma in Nitya Dharma, part 5 –

“The imprisonment of the jiva began when the jiva forgot his position as the eternal servant of Sri Krsna. This forgetfulness is the original offence of the jiva and is the root of all the jiva’s subsequent offences.”

In Srimad Bhagavatam, purport of 3.26.7Srila Prabhupada states -

Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no responsibility. He is simply the witness of the actions, he is forced to act that way due to his offence in his eternal relationship with Krsna.”

And what is that original offence?

The answer is giving up the Lord’s service.

In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.14.1, Prabhupada states in the purport -

Srila Prabhupada – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world.”

In Tokyo on April 20, 1972 Prabhupada stated –

Srila Prabhupada – “He has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna.”

Giving up the service to Sri Krsna is due to freewill which leads to more forgetfulness due to the choices one makes due to that free will.

There are other aspects of freewill, but giving up service means giving up our love to Krsna, or we want to serve in another way that is not compatible in the spiritual world.

Krsna does not force you to love Him. You have to desire it willingly and that is the topmost use of freewill, this is what freewill means, to voluntarily serve Krsna. The living entity is given that ‘choice’ because without it, there is no meaning to individuality or being a marginal living being.

The other angle is that by misusing our freewill we make the wrong decision and Maya immediately covers us AFTER the living entity chooses to manufacture their existence without Krishna.

Freewill is perfect and imperfect and yes it is an inconceivable truth (Acintya Tattva) It is perfect in the aspect of allowing one to freely choose to endlessly increasingly serve and it is imperfect and not suitable for Goloka when we choose to ignore Krsna. This is one reason why the Lord creates the Mahat-tattva (material creation)

The perfect aspect of this imperfection of the jiva is that you can go back to serve Krsna again. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.11.25 confirms this -

“Oh my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants who find shelter at Your lotus feet? Oh Lord of my life, may I again become their servant so that my mind may always engage in the loving service of Your Lordship.”

Twice Srila Prabhupada uses the word bhuyah (again), stressing the point.

[Sarva gattah 0]

Well, there are many who want to know the truth and this is for them as Srila Prabhupada wanted

 

When the jivas misuse freewill in Goloka, Vaikuntha it is not like a case of newly transformed envious jivas hanging around. They are instantly covered and ousted from the Lord’s realm.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura’s purport to text 44 of Brahma Samhita states –

“When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world.”

On a morning walk in Vrndavana, 9-13-75 Prabhupada said: “He has given you little freedom’ you can use it. Yathecchasi tathaa kuru, Krsna says in Gita (18.63), ‘Whatever you like you do.”

Some devotees seem to think that this discussion of the “Fall, no fall of the Jiva” started after Prabhupada’s disappearance but that is not a fact.

In the early 1972, Madhudvisa had to deal with the issue in Australia while travelling around preaching on a Double Decker travelling Temple that I was also personally on and the Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter is a result of that exchange with devotees who thought we came from the Brahmajyoti. The letter has typed parts, Prabhupada also added his own handwritten notes, and he signed the letter by hand. Madhudvisa has the letter.

In the early 1970’s, Siddhasvarupananda Swami was preaching that the jivas came from the Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada told him not to preach that in his temples.

In a letter to Caturbhuja Dasa, L.A., 5-9-73, Prabhupada wrote him -

Srila Prabhupada – “Your last question ‘How is the soul degraded (by lust, anger and greed) when it is transcendental to the body?

Srila Prabhupada – “Doesn’t that imply that the soul has changed? ‘No. The soul never changes, but due to his tinyness, he may become forgetful of his relationship with Krsna”.

Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual quality of the spiritual spark has not changed but he has forgotten his spiritual nature, bewildered by the imperfect desire to become equal or greater than Krsna.”

Most of the verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana are showing how a jiva can go to Vaikuntha or Goloka but unless one’s devotion is FULLY developed he will fall back to this material world due to lack of chit (knowledge) strength.

Nevertheless, eventually he/she will return and stay permanently in Vaikuntha/Goloka, regaining his/hers authentic svarupa bodily identity that is actually permanently there in Goloka even if one forgets this fact.

Such comments seem inconceivable, but are they? Actually they are easily understood when one ‘realizes, by dent of bhakti, what the eternal present actually means’. In other words, our perpetual body is permanently locked, protected, and secured in the eternal present because there is no portal of past or future for it to ever leave. Therefore if there id fall down, it is only consciously via ones thoughts, imaginings and dreams, never as ones original body.

Now that wasn’t too difficult to understand was it?

Those verses in shastra that state that one does not fall from Vaikuntha are referring either to jivas who fell originally and are now reinstated, and generally won’t fall again or to those jivas who never fell to begin with.

Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur clarifies the point in Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101

“The position of the jiva IS a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”.

And Srila Prabhupada says in a similar vein on a morning walk:

Paramahamsa - So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada - Yes.

Paramahamsa - Falldown?

Prabhupada - Yes…. He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. (Cheviot Hills Golf Course-5-13-73, L.A.)

Srila Prabhupada stressed the verse: Mahaajano yena gatah sa panthaa - one must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas

Mahabhaarata, Vana Parva, 313.117. And who is speaking these verses from Brahma Vaivarta Purana?

They happen to be Mahajanas.

Narayana Rsi is talking to Narada Rsi about what Yamaraj spoke to Savitri (Mother of the vedas). Brahma also joins in later. So, their statements carry weight.

So, for our Brahma-Vadi friends (no fall avadis or sleep avadis) what will they do now? Maybe demonise these verses as Apa siddhantic or of the Kuyogi Sampradaya?

Or belittle the slokas as simply words to encourage the pious to do Punyas?

Or try to emphasize that these verses are fanciful imagination? Then better yet they may try to minimize these verses as secondary evidence or not authentic or as interpolations? Any way you want to cut it, there is disagreement on this point and the Patanam Slokas, will stand their ground, and support Srila Prabhupada that jivas can fall (patanam) from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

So how can apparently contradictory statements be reconciled? Jiva Goswami explains in his Krsna Sandarbha 152.9 that Vedanta Sutra states –

“If there are two contradictory statements in scripture, the first statement should be interpreted so that it does not contradict the later statement.”

So the way to employ this understanding of Jiva Goswami means that for us, the Fallvadis (as the Brahmavadis call us) we accept both ideas i.e. coming from Brahman and coming from Vaikuntha/Goloka.

The jivas coming from Brahman are those jivas who did not get liberated in Brahma’s lifetime and entered the body of Maha-Vishnu. So, when they reappear when Maha-Vishnu begins to expand universes again that occurrence is an origin because it is over a time period of trillions and trillions of years, which is like eternity.

That origin is what the Upanishads describe.

We accept the understanding that the jivas that have left their service in Vaikuntha/Goloka, due to free will, come here to the material world.

In all of this discussion one important point to understand is that to Krsna, in Krsna’s transcendental time, or reckoning, we are here in this material world for one or two seconds (NOT EVEN THAT BECAUSE NOTHING IS SEEN AS MISSING WITHIN THE ‘ETERNAL PRESENT)’.

How is this?

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

 

 

 

Again, in Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krsna Janma Khanda, chapter 25, verse 98-99 it is stated that

 

 

“ Brahma dies when Krsna winks”.

 

So, if a jiva stays in a universe for the life of Lord Brahma, which is trillions of years, and then goes back to Goloka, then in Goloka, it is only an insignificant moment.

So, in real Transcendental Time (The eternal present that has no past and future as we understand it in the material perishable world) we are here for a very, very short time.

And to put the icing on the cake we will let Srila Prabhupada have the last word on the topic quoting Srimad Bhagavatam.

According to Jiva Goswami in the Tattva Sandarbha the Srimad Bhagavatam is the highest sastra and the most perfect of all evidence.

So, lets hear the verse, as a pure devotee understands it.

In Bhagavad Gita 6.47Srila Prabhupada states in the purport:

Srila Prabhupada – “Every living entity is of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and thus every living entity is intended to serve the Supreme Lord by his own constitution. Failing to do this, he falls down.

The Bhagavatam (11.5.3) confirms this as follows:

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone who does not render service and neglects his duty unto the primeval lord, who is the source of all living entities will certainly fall down from his constitutional position.”

A Bhagavad-Gita lecture that was given by Srila Prabhupada on 2-21-69, in L.A. (Collected Lectures on Bhagavad-Gita As It Is, Volume 5, pp. 6-7),

Srila Prabhupada quotes the same Bhagavatam verse 11.5.3. He then gives this commentary, which throws even more light on it making it clearer –

Srila Prabhupada – “The Bhagavat says that we are all parts and parcels of the Supreme. If we do not serve the Supreme, then we fall down from our specified place. What is that?

Srila Prabhupada – “If the part and parcel cannot render service regularly, that means it is painful. So any person who is not rendering service to the Supreme Lord, he’s simply giving pain to the Supreme Lord.

Srila Prabhupada – “He’s simply giving trouble. Therefore, he has to suffer…. The same example, Sthanad bhrastah patanty adhah. And as soon as one thing is very painful, just like the government keeps all these painful citizens into a prison house. Collect together. ‘You live here, you are nonsense, you criminals live here. Don’t live in the open state.’

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, all these criminals who have violated the laws of God, who have simply given pain to the Lord, they are put in this material world.

Srila Prabhupada – “And, sthanad bhrastah, he falls down from the specified place….So we have fallen down. Being against the principles of God consciousness, we are fallen down. So if we want to revive our original position, we must be placed again in that service attitude.

Srila Prabhupada – “The best thing is to revive our original Krsna consciousness and be engaged in the service of the Lord. That is the natural life and that is possible in the spiritual sky or the Goloka Vrndavana.”

At the end of the lecture a question was asked: “Why are you teaching about Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have forgotten the service of Radha and Krsna, therefore you have become the servant of Maya.’”

So, in conclusion the Mahajanas have talked about agatya patanam, falling from Vaikuntha/Goloka. Vyasadeva, who compiled the Puranas, has presented slokas about patanam (falldown)

So has Bhaktivinode Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura mentioned fall and no fall of the jiva. Srila Prabhupada has quoted Srimad Bhagavatam to stress the point about freewill causing the jiva to fall, so one cannot say that ISKCON devotees are the only ones who have spoken of the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha and Goloka.]

Note: The bracketed [ - ] was inspired by the writings of Bahushira dasa, Bhanu Swami, Dr. Santosh Kumari (Sanskrit Gold Medalist) and Dr. Sudershan Kaushik (Sanskrit Gold Medalist) with a few extra comments from myself.

Devotee - "Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul?”

Srila Prabhupada –“We are eternally conditioned (nitya baddha), but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (nitya-siddha)? You are not eternally conditioned (nitya baddha). You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha), but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it only APPEARS that we are eternally conditioned (nitya baddha).

Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise, the living entity is NOT actually conditioned (nitya-baddha).

A living entity is always pure(nitya-siddha). But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned (nitya-baddha), but that is not permanent.

Therefore, a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

 

 

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The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only think, dream and imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present' by adding a past and future to their existence, that is separated from Krishna AND the body they serve Krishna as in Krsnaloka.

What’s makes an interesting point is, it's almost as if the 'awareness' of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen due to that falling out of sync with the eternal present)

But actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates as if they hadn't fallen at all.

The only thing that has changed is the awareness of 'eternal time' has given way to 'divided time' by selfishly adding 'past and future' dimensions that are activated by 'desiring' mundane plans of enjoyment without Krsna'

This places the fallen living entity's 'awareness' outside of Krsnaloka even though they are an eternal resident of Goloka.

They now become completely forgetful and unaware of their 'real' svarupa body (THE REAL UNENDING SELF) because the living entity in now lost in a comatose dream of self importance, imaging they are Lord of the Universe.

As a consequence, they eventually find their way to the mahat-tattva where such dreams are given form and reality (but only a fading or temporary reality) of self-expression within that temporary material creation or mahat-tattva.

So one falls down from Goloka by falling out of sync (pure selfless loving devotion to the Lord) with the 'eternal present' - for this reason it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and again re-establishing ones original relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed.

 

On return to the 'eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka. YOU JUST MAY WONDER WHY KRISHNA IS GIVING YOU A BIG HUGE

 

 

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