First of all, he never said that. he made a statement that none of his Godbrothers is fit to be an Acharya, or one primary spiritual leader of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's mission. these two are very different concepts, but because you folks are blinded with your sentimentality, you are unable to see that. If you are pretending to quote Prabhupada, make sure the quote is not bogus. It is very misleading. On some forums you would have been banned for dishonesty, as it happened more than once before.

Second of all, it is not quite up to Prabhupada to make such sweeping statements. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta personally and directly authorized several of his disciples to be gurus. On top of that, Prabhupada took sannyasa from his Godbrother. Does it mean his sannyasa is bogus, because he took it from a person who is not qualified to be a guru?

Please!! think before you fly off the handle with your tirades.

Sarva gattah, I tried to harmonize but now you have cycled back into the polarization/ war producing mode which only begets offenses and counter offenses. Congratulations, good job. Even without all this insane internet ISKCON/Gaudiya politics, we are so, so far from real Krsna Consciousness and now we can geometrically expand our Maya and broadcast our offenses to many and get offended in return. What to speak of offending great souls who are many lifetimes more spiritually evolved. What an unfortuate way to spend one's precious time - creating more and more disunity and disharmony. It takes a very hard heart to perpetrate such a thing and the result is to even make one's heart harder. Is this what you really want? You must be mistaking your own mind for the internal guidance of caita-guru.

How it slightly sounds out when reading posts of the conception, "we somehow fell from the Brahmajyoti", that there's an inexplicable injustice involved why we came here.
Remember, the living entity transmigrates through millions of forms when finally reaching the human form. It should be clear that the underlying principle of this really long journey must be a deliberate decision and not some vage mistake why the jiva is put under the spell of material illusion.


sleeping sadhu

Devotee (4): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.
Prabhupāda: Many, there are many reasons.
Devotee (4): I can’t seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature… Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how māyā works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how māyā works and how I might fall.
Prabhupāda: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa? They were Kṛṣṇa’s doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiraṇyakaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa?
Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuṇṭha. They are Krishna’s personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.
Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krishna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuṇṭha at any moment. Icchā-dveṣa samutthena sarge yānti parantapa. Find out this verse.
Puṣṭa Krishna:
icchā-dveṣa samutthena dvandva-mohena bhārata sarva-bhūtāni sammohaṁ sarge yānti parantapa
“O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.”
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: “The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa appears by His internal potencies. But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies. This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking ‘This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.’ These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”
Prabhupāda: So even in the Vaikuṇṭha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.
Vipina: Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Prabhupāda: He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this.
Vipina: Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupāda: That means you lose your independence.



Evening Darśana
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda
July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.

full conversation: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/760708ed.wdc.htm

The story of Jaya and Vijaya is the only example of a "fall" from Vaikuntha in the shastras. Actually, they did not fall down at all. It was all Krsna's arrangement and Jaya and Vijaya accepted it without argument, as servants of the Lord should. There was no FALL there in the sense of losing proper devotional consciousness. What is more (listen sharp, sleepervadis!), they DESCENDED to the material world and did not leave their original spiritual bodies sleeping by the door of Vaikuntha.

Actually, the story of Jaya and Vijaya shows that: NO ONE EVER FALLS FROM VAIKUNTHA

Srila Prabhupada tried to speak to her reasonably but she was adamant and would not accept. Finally Prabhupada said, "All right. But I have brought only one medicine, so please take it," and he began a blissful kirtan chanting

No one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.

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Suchandra, the answer is firstly no one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that. WHY??<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
A living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, this means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fallen down previously from Vaikuntha as their baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Secondly, the photo of the Sadhu laying down sleeping, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. This sentence is very important to understand.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, that only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'.

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time'
<o:p></o:p>
In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Quote:

Originally Posted by suchandra <o:p></o:p>

Quote:

Originally Posted by suchandra <o:p></o:p> DEVOTEE(4): Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupada: Many, there are many reasons.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee (4): I can’t seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature… Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how Maya works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and how I might fall.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Prabhupāda:You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakyaśipu, Hiranyakyaśipu? They were Krishna’s doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranakyaśipu or Hiraṇyākṣa?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupāda.

<o:p></o:p>

But Babaji had just finished saying,
and,
You have Babaji Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur at war with themselves. Yet everything is answered there, including what you have to say, only Babaji Maharaja (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur) says it much better than you!
Think, what does he mean by,

So why the fighting over the origin of the soul? ...the soul is eternal and from that viewpoint - the viewpoint of the eternal present - has no origin. So why the fighting over the "origin"? But then again the soul does have an origin, but that's from the angle of vision of time. We cannot pretend to be in "the eternal present" if really we are still so attached to our bodies and minds.
The sastra have given so many analogies like the sun and particles of the sun's rays, but that's just an analogy. And anyway we are told that we cannot really understand these things in our present state of consciousness, so why should we pretend that we do? There is no Gaudiya Math conspiracy to drag us back into impersonalism. This is an old ISKCON myth that has no connection with reality. The only thing that can really drag us down is Vaisnava aparadha.

Lets pray that is so on both accounts. Then please explain how you get around Sridar Maharaj's comments that we were not previously in Krishna lila because we came from a plain sheet of consciousness, that is also always growing with new individual jivas? With all due respects, his understanding is clearly incorrect. Can you answer this question? Anyway the understanding below is very clear and IS Prabhupada's teachings -Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah
No one sleeps like this in Vaikuntha or Goloka then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that.WHY??

A living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, this means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fallen down previously from Vaikuntha as their baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life.

Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there.

Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.

Secondly, the photo of the Sadhu laying down sleeping, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state.

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way.

What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. This sentence is very important to understand.

There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that.

What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka.

Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future.

The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, that only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'.

What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates.

The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time'

In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that.

Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Here is Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's (Babaji's) answer to your question, and here is the same question being posed in slightly different manner by his character Vrajanatha:

Why didn't Sridhar Maharaj explain it that way?

Sarva's been saying that based on Prabhupadas teachings and personal association, since he came on this forum and was bagged by everyone, so really there is no arugument if we understand the concept of time. well at least you understand, many others still don't comprehend. Just a bit of advice, break up you quotes with paragrahs for easier reading. Also which translation are you using? There is one being done now and this debate is influencing that translation

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Jaiva Dharma<o:p></o:p>

Table of Contents

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Preface

[by Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja]<o:p></o:p>
(written for the third Hindi edition)<o:p></o:p>
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Gaudiya Vaisnava Guru Parampara<o:p></o:p>
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Introduction

[by Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja]<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 1 -- The Eternal & Temporary Dharmas of the Jiva

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Chapter 2 -- The Nitya Dharma of the Jiva is Pure & Eternal<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 3 -- Naimittika-Dharma is to be Relinquished<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 4 -- Vaisnava-Dharma is Nitya-Dharma<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 5 -- Vaidhi-Bhakti is Nitya not Naimittika-Dharma<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 6 -- Nitya-Dharma, Race & Caste<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 7 -- Nitya-Dharma & Material Existence<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 8 -- Nitya-Dharma & Vaisnava Behavior<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 9 -- Nitya-Dharma, Material Science & Civilization<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 10 -- Nitya-Dharma & History<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 11 -- Nitya-Dharma & Idolatry<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 12 -- Nitya-Dharma, Sadhana & Sadhya<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 13 -- Pramana & The Commencement of Prameya<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 14 -- Prameya: Sakti-Tattva<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 15 -- Prameya: Jiva-Tattva<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 16 -- Prameya: Jivas Possessed by Maya<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 17 -- Prameya: The Jivas Free from Maya<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 18 -- Prameya: Bhedabheda-Tattva<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 19 -- Prameya: Abhidheya Tattva<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 20 -- Prameya: Abhidheya – Vaidhi-Sadhana-Bhakti<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 21 -- Prameya: Abhidheya – Raganuga-Sadhana-Bhakti<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 22 -- Prameya: Prayojana Tattva<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 23 -- Prameya: Sri-Nama-Tattva<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 24 -- Prameya: Nama-Aparadha<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 25 -- Prameya: Namabhasa<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 26 -- Introduction to Rasa-Tattva<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 27 -- Rasa-Tattva: Sattvika-Bhava, Vyabhicari-Bhava & Rati-Abhasa<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 28 -- Rasa-Tattva: Mukhya-Rati<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 29 -- Rasa-Tattva: Anubhavas in Santa, Dasya, & Sakhya Rasas<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 30 -- Rasa-Tattva: Anubhavas in Vatsalya & Madhurya Rasa<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 31 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Krsna’s Svarupa, the Nayaka, & Svakiya-Nayikas<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 32 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Parakiya-Nayikas<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 33 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Sri Radha’s Svarupa, Five Types of Sakhis, & Messengers<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 34 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Sri Radha’s Svarupa, Five Types of Sakhis, & Messengers <o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 35 -- Madhurya-Rasa: Uddipana<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 36 -- Sthayibhava & Stages of Rati <o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 37 -- Srngara-Rasa: Srngara-Svarupa & Vipralambha<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 38 -- Srngara-Rasa: Mukhya-Sambhoga & Asta-Kaliya-Lila<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 39 -- Entering Lila<o:p></o:p>
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Chapter 40 -- Attaining Prema – the Supreme Wealth<o:p></o:p>
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Glossary of Terms<o:p></o:p>
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Glossary of Names

Glossary of Places<o:p></o:p>
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General Index<o:p></o:p>
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Index of Quoted Slokas<o:p></o:p>
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Contacts Around The World<o:p></o:p>
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Aparently Hari Sauri Prabhu is also printing a translation that deals also with the many comments Srila Prabhupada made on this subject for the ISKCON society.

What Srila Sridhar Maharaja gave was based on what the sastras say about the origin of the jiva soul. We can't find anywhere the question posed to him about "the eternal present". Also he really didn't care to talk so much about this topic and advised those who heard from him to not give this topic so much focus. He certainly used to tell Srila Prabhupada's disciples and followers, "back home, back to Godhead"! Perhaps those who compiled the talks by Srila Sridhar Maharaja into books had some agenda back in the early and mid-eighties. Those persons had just recently been embroiled in some very heavy ISKCON politics.
What is difficult to understand is that the sastric version is really just a series of analogies used to give some approximation of reality as if the soul originates or manifests or expands from Godhead or His energies. But the branch of the tree is not the moon for which we are ultimately looking, for the moon is not really sitting on the branch after all, it just appears that way.

For a living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fall down previously, long, long, long ago from Vaikuntha, as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life. Some also then proceed to shelter in the dormant aspect of their own baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there again to the mahat-tattva or material creation to the encloser of ethereal and biological vessels.

Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.

Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. This sentence is very important to understand.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, that only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.<o:p></o:p>
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The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'.

"Our present existence, it is also dream, exactly like we dream at night. In dreaming, we create so many things. So this material world is also a gross dreaming. Gross dreaming. That is subtle dreaming. And this is gross dreaming. That is the action of the mind, body, intelligence, dreaming. And here, the action of five material elements: earth, water, air, fire… But all of them, these eight, they are simply material. So we are thinking that “I have now built a very nice house, skyscraper building.” It is nothing but dream. Nothing but dream. Dream in this sense, that as soon as I give up this body, all my skyscraper building, business, factory— finished. Exactly the same dream. Dream is for few minutes, or few hours. And it is for few years. That’s all. It is dream.So one should not be disturbed by this dreaming condition. That is spiritual life. One should not be disturbed. Just like we are not disturbed. Suppose, in dream, I was put on the throne, and I was working like a king, and after the dream is over, I am not sorry. Similarly, in dream I was seeing that tiger has attacked me. I was actually crying “Here is tiger! Here is tiger! Save me.” And the person who is lying behind me or beside me, he says, “Oh, why you are crying? Where is tiger?” So when he’s awakened, he sees there is no tiger. So everything is like that. But this dream, these gross and subtle dreams, are simply reflections. Just like what is dream? The whole day, what I think, the dreaming is a reflection, reflection. My father was doing cloth business. So sometimes he, in dreaming he was quoting price: “This is the price.” So similarly it is all dreaming. This material existence, made of these five gross elements and three subtle elements, they’re exactly like dream. Smara nityam aniyatām. Therefore Cāṇakya Paṇḍita says, smara nityam aniyatām. This anitya, temporary… Dreaming is always temporary.
So we must know that whatever we possess, whatever we are seeing, these are all dream, temporary. Therefore if we become engrossed with the temporary things, so-called socialism, nationalism, family- ism or this-ism, that-ism, and waste our time, without cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then that is called śrama eva hi kevalam, simply wasting our time, creating another body. Our own business is that we should know that “I am not this dream. I am fact, spiritual fact. So I have got a different business.” That is called spiritual life. That is spiritual life, when we understand that “I am Brahman. I am not this matter.” Brahma-bhūtaḥ."

Bhagavad-gītā 2.15
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda
Hyderabad, November 21, 1972
full lecture: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/721121BG.HYD.htm?i=1972