When the acarya disappears, a dark period comes ..............

[Guest guest]

".... to perceive the formless Shri Hari/Narayana in some form for us to meditate.

I feel the westerners need a better understandings of this....."

 

i have understood that you have made a show of your love for narayana, but actually you are despising him saying that he has no real form

 

narayana is transcendental, his form is transcendental... avatara's forms are transcendental, not human

 

 

[gopidust]

I just read that Srila Prabhupada told his householder disciples that if you don't install the Diety it is no different from the ones being sold by walas in India. So whoever said the temple Dieties do not need installing I don't know where you get your information from.

Milk touched by the lips of a serpent causes poisonous effects. That means the mantra is coming from a nonvaishnava succession if it is contaminated because the mantra is pure. If the worshipper of Ganesh likes Ganesh better than Narayana as the supreme is Narayana really supreme? Or just one of five demigods in his eyes and a lower one at that?

[Guest guest]

I just read that Srila Prabhupada told his householder disciples that if you don't install the Diety it is no different from the ones being sold by walas in India

--prabhupada speaks often in different ways for different disciples, He wanted also to make gaura nitai and radha krsna deities and sell to general public for their(=our) advancement. So a deity is a deity even if he's not installed. Krsna's form is a reality in itself, installation means basically that we engage ourselves in regulated worshipping

 

If the worshipper of Ganesh likes Ganesh better than Narayana as the supreme is Narayana really supreme?

--the supremacy of narayana does not depend by the spiritual advancement of the worshipper or the fact that he recognizes him as the lord

 

Or just one of five demigods in his eyes and a lower one at that?

--yes.. to his eyes... but not to our eyes.

 

so sri narayana is krsna, no difference, there's no reason to say something different.

 

It is very bad if someone leaves this forum believing that iskcon says that narayana is a demigod..

 

 

[gopidust]

even the guru mentioned must know Narayana is an expansion of Krishna(no offense intended)

[krsna]

Devotee: When there are failures in this organization, and we see gurus falling down, it gives a bad name to . . .

 

Gour Govinda Swami: You should understand this thing. The society gives opportunity. If one has been given a position in the society, and he is really intelligent, he will understand, “I don’t deserve it; I have no qualification. But still this opportunity has come to me. So I must make myself qualified, then I can stay in the position. Otherwise I will lose it.”

For the sake of maintaining the institution, opportunity is given. Unity must be there. We should not allow it to be split up. This is an organizational matter. Why should a member feel discouraged that he cannot get an opportunity?

Srila Prabhupada did the same thing. Prabhupada knew these people were not qualified. But he gave them sannyasa. Prabhupada said, “Take this opportunity! Do it now!” Oth-erwise, how could he manage the society? He would give someone sannyasa, and then put that sannyasa in one area to manage. In this way, the brahmacaris and devotees will obey him, because he is a sannyasi.

Mahaprabhu took sannyasa for this same reason. He was Mahaprabhu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But because He was a grhastha, many were not accepting him and were criticizing. Mahaprabhu thought, “I have to take sannyasa, because a sannyasi has prestige.” The general people have the notion that a mayavadi sannyasi is Narayan. Mahaprabhu thought, “I must take sannyasa, otherwise these people won’t listen to Me.” So He took up sannyasa from Keshava Bharati, who was a sannyasi in the mayavadi sampradaya. However, Mahaprabhu preached vaisnava philosophy. That was His purpose.

Similarly, Srila Prabhupada gave sannyasa. Otherwise, how can you manage such a worldwide organization? All of the brahmacaris and devotees will accept if a sannyasi is the leader. They will offer him obeisances and accept what he says. But if he is a grhastha, if he is a brahmacari nobody will accept.

Prabhupada gave an opportunity. If you are intelligent, you will understand this. You should think, “I don’t deserve it. I am not qualified. But he gave me an opportunity so I must make myself qualified and keep up the position.” But instead of being intelligent, you are a fool. You are thinking, “Now I am a sannyasi Now I am great! Now I am guru, now I am acarya!” You have developed pride. You commit aparadha and fall down. This is the reason for these fall downs. So, when we think of organizational matters we should consider all of these things. Otherwise how we will maintain the world-wide organization? These two aspects are there, the spiritual aspect and the organizational aspect. This is the organizational aspect.

 

— From an evening darsana in Bhubaneswar,India on 31 March 1992

[Guest guest]

From Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita-

 

eko vai narayana asin na brahma na isano napo nagni samau neme

dyav-aprthivi na naksatrani na suryah sa ekaki na ramate tasya

dhyanantah sthasya yatra chandogaih kriyamanastakadi-samjnaka

stuti-stomah stomam ucyate.

 

"In the beginning of the creation there was only the Supreme Personality Narayana. There was no Brahma, no Siva, no fire, no moon, no stars in the sky, no sun. There was only Krsna, who creates all and enjoys all"

 

 

 

Krsna Stu Bhagavan Swayam. Throughout all the vedas Krsna is mentioned as supreme. Nowhere it is stated that Narayan or visnu is supreme.

 

 

The above verse is from Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita as it is.

Chapter 10. The Opulence of the Absolute TEXT 8

 

 

Dont concoct your words into Srila Prabhupads Philosophy.

 

Hare Krsna.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mahaksa Prabhu,

Just to clear things up, you said "if you get a guru who causes you to go away from krsna, this is what krsna does, causes forgetfulness."

 

Vishnujana Swami told us that Srila Prabhupada told him that the guru never puts the disciple in maya. Maybe you should have used the term "so-called guru."

Your servant,

Drav das

[Srimanta]

 

When Narayana is worshipped as a demigod by Hindus in a Hindu temple(panca maha vidhi?) is he The Supreme Personality of Godhead properly installed? Or is he just another demigod installed according to the level of worship of his (hindu) followers? This is a real question.

 

Krsna is Narayana but Narayana is not Krsna

[gHari]

Am I not Gary when I wear my baseball uniform and pitch ball, just as I am Gary when in the park with my girlfriend or in the boardroom as the CEO?

 

Krsna-tattva: Narayana is Krsna, Krsna is Narayana, with all His potencies even though many of Sri Krsna's qualities and potencies will not be prominent or even visible in His Narayana pastimes.

 

Never disrespect or minimize the glory of Lord Narayana; all incarnations and expansions are like innumerable candles, all lit by one candle. Sri Krsna is that one primal candle, and yet He is simultaneously all candles. There is one God, and He presents Himself in a variety of ways according to His desire and pastimes.

 

Seeing the Diety of Lord Narayana, one should think "Oh Krsna, You are so wonderful".

[Guest guest]

 

Am I not Gary when I wear my baseball uniform and pitch ball, just as I am Gary when in the park with my girlfriend or in the boardroom as the CEO?

 

Krsna-tattva: Narayana is Krsna, Krsna is Narayana, with all His potencies even though many of Sri Krsna's qualities and potencies will not be prominent or even visible in His Narayana pastimes.

 

Never disrespect or minimize the glory of Lord Narayana; all incarnations and expansions are like innumerable candles, all lit by one candle. Sri Krsna is that one primal candle, and yet He is simultaneously all candles. There is one God, and He presents Himself in a variety of ways according to His desire and pastimes.

 

Seeing the Diety of Lord Narayana, one should think "Oh Krsna, You are so wonderful".

 

Then why Narayana is playing Allaha Lila?

[gHari]

 

Then why Narayana is playing Allaha Lila?

Krsna does whatever pleases Him, and also as Lord Narayana He does whatever pleases Him.

 

I am known by many different names in the boardroom, baseball diamond, and park, and perform different pastimes in each - but I am always Gary no matter how I dress, or what I do, or whether my fans call me "Rocketman" or "Chairman of the Board" or "sweetheart".

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Who can recognize Guru in the heart of His disciple. The BONAFIDE disciples of A bonafide spiritual master are of the same quality, even though quantity can certainly be measured.

 

In other words, Srila Prabhupada never agrees to be a brass deity confined to a temple, he is never bound by an organization, he is ever present in the heart of the disciple, and continues delivering the sleepers through the via medium of such faithful disciples, within or outside of the preaching apparatus he creates.

 

How many gurus does ISKCON have? 30, 100, I dont really follow.

 

1 diksa guru - Srila Prabhupada.

 

But these are folks who are available, folks who will initiate disciples. These folks have been approved by srila prabhupadas governing body.

Yes, approved by the GBC - NOT by Srila Prabhupada.

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

Since they have not been authorized by Srila Prabhupada how can they be bona-fide?

 

But guru tattwa still holds sway, the disciple still hears and decides on the basis of such hearing to surrender accordingly. Krsna within does all of this, and if you get a guru who causes you to go away from krsna, this is what krsna does, causes forgetfulness.

 

Nonsense, as pointed out by Drav dasa. The bona-fide guru brings you TO Krishna not away from him.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The genuine guru is God's representative, and he speaks about God and nothing else. [....] A guru's business is to canvass everyone to become a devotee of God. That is the sum and substance of a real guru's business. Indeed, he has no other business. He tells whomever he sees, "Please become God conscious." If he canvasses somehow or other on behalf of God and tries to get everyone to become a devotee of God, he is a genuine guru.

[....]

Reporter: But the bad gurus...

Srila Prabhupada: And what is a "bad" guru?

Reporter: A bad guru just wants some money or some fame.

Srila Prabhupada: Well, if he is bad, how can he become a guru? [Laughter.] How can iron become gold? Actually, a guru cannot be bad, for if someone is bad, he cannot be a guru. You cannot say "bad guru." That is a contradiction. What you have to do is simply try to understand what a genuine guru is. [sSR]

 

 

I am certain that bonafide gurus exist within the framework of the ISKCON structure, ...........

Siksa gurus, maybe. re: diksa gurus; for your statement to be correct, then you have to explain - how, when & where they were authorized by Srila Prabhupada.

[gHari]

Bhakta Harry, you are addressing a very senior disciple of His Divine Grace. You should not place more store in your mind's ability to juggle words than in Sriman Mahaksa. Humility is required, even more than intelligence.

[Guest guest]

 

Krsna does whatever pleases Him, and also as Lord Narayana He does whatever pleases Him.

 

I am known by many different names in the boardroom, baseball diamond, and park, and perform different pastimes in each - but I am always Gary no matter how I dress, or what I do, or whether my fans call me "Rocketman" or "Chairman of the Board" or "sweetheart".

 

In Mayawadi Philosophy every body is Narayana and you are one of them. But according to Prabhupada, all Mayawadi Narayana are jiva soul. But Krsna is supreme personality of Godhead and jiva souls are one dot comparing potency of Supreme Personality of Godhead?

 

Scince I am seeing you as a senior member in this board, you must join ISKCON and take some classes or hear some lectures of Prabhupada which will help you to clear your doubt. Be engage in Krsna's service and that should be your ultimate goal through which you can make relationship with Krsna.

 

Or are you prolonging in this Board to put forward your Mayawadi Philosophy which is discarded by Prabhupada.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Bhakta Harry, you are addressing a very senior disciple of His Divine Grace. You should not place more store in your mind's ability to juggle words than in Sriman Mahaksa. Humility is required, even more than intelligence.

 

 

It is said, vrddhatvam vayasa vina: one may be senior without being advanced in age. Even if one is not old, one gains seniority if he is senior in knowledge. [sB 6.7.33p]

[gHari]

 

In Mayawadi Philosophy every body is Narayana and you are one of them. But according to Prabhupada, all Mayawadi Narayana are jiva soul. But Krsna is supreme personality of Godhead and jiva souls are one dot comparing potency of Supreme Personality of Godhead?

 

Scince I am seeing you as a senior member in this board, you must join ISKCON and take some classes or hear some lectures of Prabhupada which will help you to clear your doubt. Be engage in Krsna's service and that should be your ultimate goal through which you can make relationship with Krsna.

 

Or are you prolonging in this Board to put forward your Mayawadi Philosophy which is discarded by Prabhupada.

I certainly hope I did not propose such foolishness that everyone is Narayana, Mayavadi? Visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva are quite separate in my mind and I thought also in my posts. I will happily explain any misunderstanding in my words, and try not to be so obtuse in the future. I am sorry my words gave you that impression, for I am anything but a Mayavadi. Indeed, I am as far away from mayavadi as is possible.

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/24/285/en

 

http://vedabase.net/bs/5/46/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/21/32/en

 

http://vedabase.net/cc/adi/3/71/en

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/28/en

[gHari]

Agreed. Humility is overrated.

[mahak]

Haribol, Drav, harry and especially my friend from the north, Sri gHari.

 

Im sorry, I havent been following this thread, but it appears that clarification is necessary.

 

I noted the FACT that, as Srila Prabhupada profusely teaches, Krsna is omnescient, meaning he fully KNOWS the heart and drive and ambition and motivation of every sentient being. One can never hide from Krsna. So if we see thaT SOMEONE has been cheated, either we say that Krsna has cheated him or that the individual desired to be cheated. Srila Prabhupada confirms the existance of many searching madly for someone to cheat them. Thus, when one desires a cheater, Krsna, being omnescient, gives one a cheater to lead them AWAY from him. Krsna confirms fully in Bhagavad Gita that he is the cause of rememberance as well as forgetfulness.

 

Of course, I was NOT referring to a genuine guru as one who carries out this deception aspect, I was refering to those who pose as guru to lead one away from Krsna Consciousness. However, guru can be used here because of the foolish aceptance by the one desiring to be cheated, and the fanatical dealings between the two. In fact, if one analyzes the situation, a false guru can be so deceitful that he can claim Srila Prabhupada as his, can even force those he is cheating to acept a brass figurine of Srila Prabhupada, all the trappings are there, but the whole thing is empty of any potency at all. Srila Prabhupada prophesizes this as well, when he describes the methodology of the servants of Kali Yuga who pose as authentic vaisnavas to lead us into darkness. This Madhya lila purport is very important for all disciples to understand. We have to assume some responsibility for our spiritual advancement and not allow the trappings we perceive in our kanistha adhikari state, where proper discernment of actual tattwa is virtually impossible, we must dive a bit deeper.

 

Where do we dive? This is easy. We dive into our own heart and drive and ambition and motivation, and link these things to the desires of a genuine guru, not one fullfilling our eternal desire to again be cheated. We must change our desire, and then, when we want authenticity, we get genuine guidance.

 

Hare Krsbna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

And many shall come to him saying, " Prabhupad, oh master did we not chant your name?

Did we not preach in your name and caste out demons and convert karmis in your name?

Become, vegetarians, renunciates? gurus? saviors? humble servants? compassionate well wishers, or warriors in your name and mission?"

And he may or may not turn to them and say get away from me, ye workers of delusion, you have failed to do the will of my beloved Lord Krishna.

He knows our heart better than we know ourselves, all the little dark secrets and blind spots we can't see in ourselves.

How will I qualify in his vision?

He may well be all-merciful.

But what degree of genuine humility, respect and truthfullness will it take to sit at his righthand side serving his friends and masters? Are we truly pleasing and deserving him?

[Guest guest]

Yes, it's a dark period; but sincere souls are trying to shine a little light in the darkness, as best they can.

[Srimanta]

 

Yes, it's a dark period; but sincere souls are trying to shine a little light in the darkness, as best they can.

 

Prabhupada is not dead. He is always alive among you. He is the real master, follow Him

 

All glory to Lord Chaitannya Mohaorabhu Supreme Personality of Godhead