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Bhakta Harry

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Everything posted by Bhakta Harry

  1. When, where, & how did Prabhupada order "his zonal secretaries" to become "gurus"?
  2. When I was visiting the ISKCON temple, Burkit Road, Chin High, (Chennai formally Mad rasa) in the early 90's. I returned from book distribution one evening and the pujari (French, forget his name) showed me a business card saying, "Look at this we had a special visitor to the temple today. " I looked at the card and it read Name: MAHAVISHNU Occupation: AVATAR etc.
  3. I think that you forgot this “This is the function of the GBC, to see that one may not be taken away by maya. The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.”(Letter to Madhudvisa, 4/8/75)
  4. "They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said." (Letter, Omkara, 75-09-02)
  5. Furthermore Gauri dasa wasn't in the Vrndavana Gurukula where the alleged offences took place until about 1994! Get this, he was alleged to have been beating the kids from about 1994 - 2002. He doesn't deny these allegations but instead tells us Ok, but why was he still beating the hell out of them until the year 2002? What makes this situation so farsical is that he is being presented to the Hindus & the UK government as the spiritual head of the proposed school. Is this typical ISKCON or what? Maybe they will make him a guru now also? The Hindus are just finding out about his past behaviour and are justifiably concerned.
  6. I agree with some of your points. The 'authorized' ritvik is a priest who performs the ceremony on behalf of the initiator. Srila Prabhupada left us specific instructions to continue with this system. May I remind you that ISKCON was founded to implement Srila Prabhupada's instructions, not what you think or believe. In other words unless you can substanciate what you think or believe with quotes from Srila Prabhupada. Then I'm sorry to say that these beliefs & thoughts of yours have little relevance to the discussion.
  7. Hell, babe, you seem to me, to be very good at doing the very thing you accuse others of doing.
  8. Srila Prabhupada's word is the proof. Do you have a problem with that?
  9. Srila Prabhupada says that diksa/initiation is a process. This begins with the reception of transcendental knowledge.
  10. Please enlighten us great sage! Explain why His Holiness is surrounded by beautiful young girls and is obviously enjoying in their company. Everywhere he goes he has the same following, is it not? Please note that i am not saying this out of envy but simply making a point.
  11. Can you prove otherwise? Where is the proof that Srila Prabhupada authorized H.H Gour Govinda Swami to be initiating guru? It defies his signed instructions on this matter. This may or may not be true. Seems a pathetic line of argumentation to me:pray:
  12. Without specific authorization from Srila Prabhupada no one should be initiating within ISKCON. As previously posted .... "One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport) "Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru." (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75) He may have created millions of pure devotees - but he never gave authorization to any, to be diksa/initiating gurus.
  13. Good point, however not all ritvik groups do this. IRM for example. This is your opinion and i respect your right to hold that view. However we are supposed to be following the directions of Srila Prabhupada and since he has not informed us of any devotee to wait for, we are not waiting! Again this is your speculations. Yes, some so-called ritvik followers are not much different than the GBC in that they fall victim to their own speculations, just like you do actually! Yes, but if someone is doing the wrong thing, no mater how nicely he perform that service, it is still bogus. More of your own peculiar brand of what-ever. As mentioned previously ISKCON was founded to follow the opinion of Srila Prabhupada and that is how it should continue.
  14. As I've said before babe, you really want to lo:eek: ok in the mirror someday. Cos you are doing the same thing, you accuse others of doing.
  15. All your verbosity proves nothing. My point remains: that this so-called "nice devotee" was not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be an initiating guru. It is possible to preach without disobeying the directions of Srila Prabhupada, that is the preaching process followed by genuine nice devotees.<!--EndFragment-->
  16. Every picture tells a story. I guess the GBC will be thankful that at least he's not gay, but should a sannyasi be enjoying in the company of beautiful young girls? Is this the standard in the Gaudiya maths also? Does Narayan Maharaj also enjoy like this? Please note that I am not asking this out of envy but to make a point.
  17. Where have i made this claim? I think you are getting a bit bewildered here, don't you think? This is the thread .... Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana ........what is your proof of pleasing your guru? all you have is bombastic claims. “Big, big monkey, big, big belly; Ceylon jumping — melancholy!” - Prabhupada </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> What claims have I made in this regard?
  18. You haven't explained anything, rather you have just made another statement. So how am i to learn from you?
  19. Since he didn't want his disciples to be initiating gurus there is no such authorization. July 9th 1977 document sent out to all temples & GBC's. & subsequent written instructions.
  20. Can Theist & Kulapavana answer this question? Srila Prabhupada is not just anybody but is a mahabhagavata devotee of the Lord. Is his word not good enough for you?
  21. Srila Prabhupada is not just anybody but is a mahabhagavata devotee of the Lord. Is his word not good enough for you? In relation to ISKCON and his disciples, Srila Prabhupada was always careful to put important instructions in writing. Srila Bhaktisiddanta never gave a similar instruction, so why should we expect physical proof from Srila Prabhupada, on just your say so? Yes, but when this so-called ordination conflicts with signed documentation from Srila Prabhupada it seems sensible to question the depth of reality surrounding this 'ordination'. As mention previously the GBC also doesn't accept this "ordination of their guru by Srila Prabhupada from within" since they have a voting approval system which is how Indradyumna got his diksa guru status.
  22. Sorry to disagree and make you more angry than you already are prabhu, but can you back up your above conclusions with any quotes from Srila Prabhupada? My conclusion that there must be authorization from Srila Prabhupada is fully supported by his teachings. .... Furthermore the GBC don't accept this conclusion of yours either since they have a voting system which authorizes the gurus. Also how are we to know who got the real 'mystical level authorization'? Srila Prabhupada solves this dilema by stating ... my point is that it could also be maya. Thank-you for the advice. I am sure they do think he is qualified, my point is that he is not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be an initiating guru.
  23. With regards to the Detroit room conversation, had Srila Prabhupada said in 1971 that none of his disciples would ever be diksa gurus, the neophyte devotees around him may have been discouraged and left. We can see from the letters that Srila Prabhupada had to write, that some of his disciples were extremely ambitious, trying to initiate after having been in the movement for just a few years; and that Srila Prabhupada was forced to check their ambition by simply encouraging them to at least wait. At that point it is unlikely they had fully grasped just how elevated the diksa guru actually needs to be. Even now those that are left are having a hard time understanding. Even now, many years later, many of Srila Prabhupada's original followers still labour under the misconception that anyone can be a diksa guru as long as he has been following his initiation vows for the preceding five years. We can also see that in the same room conversation Srila Prabhupada is also endorsing the activities of his god-brothers, even though he said that none of them were 'qualified to be acarya' and one year later he says that they were all 'dead men' and envious. So it is clear here that Srila Prabhupada is just giving general encouragement, since he emphasises the following points: • That his grhastha disciples are just as qualified as his sannyasis. • That ALL of his disciples are 'competent' to become diksa gurus. • That anyone who is simply 'initiated' is automatically 'competent' to become a diksa guru. • That even at that time - 1971- they were ALL already qualified to become fully-fledged diksa gurus - 'NOW, they're competent'. Otherwise we have to seriously accept that Srila Prabhupada is stating that: -anyone just by being initiated is qualified and authorised to become a diksa guru. Thus if the GBC & followers want to take this quote literally then all of Srila Prabhupada's 10,000 disciples, men and women, should all be free regardless of their spiritual standing, to initiate without the need for the elaborate voting and 'no objection' arrangements that occur at present. Since as Srila Prabhupada states, they are 'all competent'. He does not say that they still need to be qualified. Though he does say that his disciples are being "trained to become future spiritual masters", his very next words are: "NOW, they're competent". - Please remember that as little as one year later Srila Prabhupada had to suspend the whole GBC for gross unauthorised behaviour. Thus we can hardly accept that Srila Prabhupada had such bad judgement that in 1971 he was stating that ALL of his disciples were there and then qualified to be Diksa Gurus even though one year later his leading men were not even able to behave as disciples. • The encouragement given in Detroit was never repeated to the entire movement, nor written into any GBC resolution or directive or published book. Just one mention in a conversation to a one-off visitor to a temple in 1971, and which was not in any case uncovered until twenty years after Srila Prabhupada's departure. This quote clearly mentions that Srila Prabhupada's disciples are already the twelfth - 'you ARE the twelfth'. Thus this is not some authorisation for them to become diksa gurus in the future, but merely a statement that they are already carrying on the message of the parampara. However a close look at the letter reveals that these exams were not intended to certify ‘initiating gurus’ but simply to improve the philosophical understanding of the devotees, who are supposed to be Brahmins. In this letter to ‘Hamsaduta’ the word ‘initiate’ is actually mentioned. Srila Prabhupada is actually talking about them initiating in his own PRESENCE - ‘By 1975’ - so he was only talking about them acting as ritviks, since according to Srila Prabhupada, one cannot be an initiating guru in the presence of the Spiritual master. We do not doubt Srila Prabhupada's words. It is your dubious interpretation of those words which is the issue here.
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