Bhakta Harry

My challenge to you - is - provide proof of your claim that these magazines are "offensive & blasphemous". Seems like more 'hot headedness' to me .

That's quite correct prabhu. I guess that shows their lack of advancement and thus Srila Prabupada's comment that none of them were qualified to be acarya. It is Srila Prabhupada who states this. So either you accept his authority or you reject it, that is your choice. No one can force you to do so. So now you know better than Srila Prabhupada? As mentioned in a previous post Srila Prabhupada does confirm that he was ordered by his guru.

yes, and when he was questioned on this, as you have done he replied as follows ..... So he clearly says above that he was ordered by his guru maharaja to be guru. So just like you this Indian man is demanding to know more, but Srila Prabhupada tells him ..... Name calling will not convince me that Indradyumna is worthy of praise. If you can prove that he is preaching according to Srila Prabhupada's direction and not concocting his own bogus conclusions - then I will certainly give him praise.

We have to become sastra caksusa- see by the eyes of the scriptures. The scriptures tell us that someone disobeying his gurus order is not such an elevated soul. He he didn't get his guru approval vote from the GBC then how did he get to be an initiating guru in ISKCON?

The words 'spiritual master' need not necessarily mean diksa guru. Why is it that people like you always associate the words 'spiritual master' with diksa guru? It's just like a lusty man, who when he sees a woman, can only think of sex. Or it is like a businessman who looks at everything as an opportunity to make money. Persons like you associate the words spiritual master only with diksa/initiating guru. This quote in question does not link this 'becoming spiritual master' to first waiting for Srila Prabhupada's departure. So how can it be speaking of diksa gurus, which can only come into existence after the spiritual master has first departed? This quote and so many of the other quotes that persons like you present do just that - they speak of acting as 'spiritual master' without needing to wait for Srila Prabhupada to depart first. The full quote also goes onto quote Lord Caitanya's order to the Brahmana Kurma to become guru: This was an order given by Lord Caitanya to an uninitiated Brahmana whom Lord Caitanya had just met, to act as a spiritual master while Lord Caitanaya was still on the planet, and who was to act as such a spiritual master by not traveling with the Lord, but by staying in his home and just preaching to his friends and family. Lord Caitanya then gave the same advice to anyone he met whenever he entered a village, visited a temple or met on the roadside. Now everyone acting as a family guru without any formal training or initiation immediately in the presence of the current link, is not an order to be a successor diksa guru in the parampara and become the next current link. To make it doubly clear, in the purports to this verse, Srila Prabhupada states: So: a) Preach immediately in the presence of the current link. b) No initiation or temple training required. c) No traveling - stick to your family and neighbours only. d) Don't make any disciples. e) Anyone and everyone is instantly eligible. You just got to repeat what it says in the sastra. No other qualification required, "not very difficult thing." This is the type of Guru Srila Prabhupada is speaking about, however there is no order to become the 'sit in Srila Prabhupada's seat since Srila Prabhupada is now dead and gone' spiritual master . Correct As mentioned previously there has to be authorization from Srila Prabhupada. So are we going to see Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's disciples continue his branch of the parampara as you claim or are we going to see the GBC stop Bhakti Swarup Damodara Maharaj's branch of the parampara? The GBC’s guru hoax program can be seen as ending certain branches of the ISKCON parampara, since as soon as one of their unauthorised gurus leaves his body, immediately a disciple would need to succeed him, lest the “parampara stop”; and yet the following GBC gurus are all physically absent and no “living guru” has replaced them to become the next GBC authorised “living link” in the parampara: HH Gaura Govinda Swami: “parampara” ended in 1996 HH Tamal Krishna Goswami: “parampara” ended in 2002 HH Sridhara Swami: “parampara” ended in 2004 HH Bhakti Tirtha Swami: “parampara” ended in 2005 HH Bhakti Swarup Damodara: “parampara” ended in 2006? It is ironic that on the one hand the GBC have argued that in the case of Srila Prabhupada the “law” of disciplic succession means that all his disciples immediately are supposed to become guru on his departure, and indeed in this case we had 11 immediate replacements; yet as seen from the cases above, the GBC are unable to find even one person to continue the “living parampara” and “succeed” the so-called 'guru' after many years. Heh, babe, you want to look in the mirror someday because it looks to me, like you are doing the same thing.

There is no directive anywhere from Srila Prabhupada that any of his disciples are authorised to act as initiating Gurus, including Indradyumna Swami; rather, the only directive ever issued by Srila Prabhupada on the future of initiations in ISKCON was the July 9th 1977 Letter to all GBCs and Temple Presidents, which only authorises ritviks, or representatives, who are meant to initiate new disciples on behalf of and for Srila Prabhupada – an instruction repeated no less than three times in this one document! This very guru system of which Indradyumna Swami hold membership, is completely unauthorized and in direct disobedience to Srila Prabhupada’s instructions.

deva - Sanskrit, "god" stating -To set forth in words; declare. As others have pointed out, it has been said before, the message remains the same. The solution is also the same - acceptance of Srila Prabhupada's approved systems. ie: Back to Prabhupada's instructions. ISKCON's unauthorized trial & error guru systems will result in more calamities.

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-06/editorials846.htm

Firstly, please note the following statement from Srila Prabhupada in Bhagavad-gita As It Is: Secondly, please consider the following verse from Sri Isopanisad: So the full truth, both what is right and what is wrong, must be spoken for everyone's benefit. And finally, consider the following from one of the 80 ISKCON Guru hoaxers he says: I think the above sums up my position perfectly. What the people give a damn about shouldn't interfere with our duty. Srila Prabhupada says: Of course, the GBC side initiated the fighting by expelling and beating any devotee who claimed Srila Prabhupada was his Guru. The objective of reaching out to the fallen souls is to help them become Krishna Conscious, but you cannot be situated in Krishna consciousness without a bona fide Guru. Srila Prabhupada is that Guru. We can only be situated at his lotus feet by following what he says - not concocting our own unauthorised Guru replacement systems - otherwise you would be advocating that we could practise Krishna consciousness by disobeying Srila Prabhupada - which of course would be absurd. How can ISKCON members sing every morning in Guru Puja to Srila Prabhupada that: "My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth". if we simultaneously think that the orders of the spiritual master are insignificant? The main concern we should have right now is how Srila Prabhupada would react if he heard that people were hijacking his movement, saying he was no longer "living", posing themselves as initiating acaryas and stealing all his disciples? Anyone who really wants the mercy will help Srila Prabhupada to rectify this deviation in his movement.

I have been unable to find this conversation on the vedabase. Can you give some details for verification?

Ha; what a clever post!

I've looked on the vedabase and was unable to find the quote you have given above. Can you verify that Srila Prabhupada actually said as you claim? To atribute quotations to someone without verification can lead to accusations of cheating, agenda pushing etc.

Yes, you are obviously refering to yourself here! Nonsense. If someone does whatever they want, how can it be discipleship? I guess you know all about that. One of those 10 offences is to disobey the orders of the Spiritual Master. Srila Prabhupada ordered ritvik "henceforward" [July 9th 1977]. ISKCON is disobeying, that is why they are in a mess.

What I find sad is the fact that ISKCON are continuously cheating the public by presenting them the following <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p><o:p></o:p> <o:p>The plain FACT is - they were not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be initiating gurus.</o:p> <!--EndFragment-->

Please enlighten us as to what teachings of Sandapani muni are surviving to this day.

You are abusing me by claiming that I am abusing Vaishnavas. Of course this is your intentional purpose. • "...the process for initiation to be followed in the future." (July 11th ) • "...continue to become ritvik and act on my charge." (July 19th ) • "...continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf." (July 31th)

One needs to distinguish between the principle of initiation and the details of its formalisation. Srila Prabhupada never defined diksa in terms of any ritualistic ceremony, but as the receipt of transcendental knowledge that leads to liberation: Diksa normally involves a ceremony, but it is not absolutely essential, more a formality: Thus the ceremonial initiation is a formality performed to solidify in the mind of the disciple the serious commitments he has made to the process of diksa. Such commitments include: • Receiving transcendental knowledge which will purify him of all contamination. • Maintaining the determination to always follow the order of the diksa guru. • To begin enthusiastically executing the spiritual master's orders. Srila Prabhupada has clearly stated that the formality of the ceremony is just that, a formality, not an essential. Furthermore, this formalisation of initiation through a ceremony, itself involves a number of elements: 1.Recommendation by an official of the institution, usually the Temple President. 2.Acceptance by acting ritvik. 3.The participation in a fire yajna. 4.The taking of a spiritual name. It is only points two and four which necessarily involves a ritvik priest. The other two are usually carried out by the Temple President or some other qualified brahman. As mentioned previously, nowhere is it ever stated that the guru and disciple must co-exist on the same planet in order for the disciple to receive any element of diksa, such as transcendental knowledge, annihilation of sinful reactions, a fire yajna ceremony and a spiritual name. On the other hand, every element of diksa (knowledge transmission, the yajna, etc.), can be given quite easily without the guru's physical presence. This was demonstrated practically by Srila Prabhupada, as he gave all the elements of diksa through intermediaries such as his disciples and books. It is the authentic process because it was authorized by Srila Prabhupada.

1 diksa guru - Srila Prabhupada. Yes, approved by the GBC - NOT by Srila Prabhupada. "One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport) Since they have not been authorized by Srila Prabhupada how can they be bona-fide? Nonsense, as pointed out by Drav dasa. The bona-fide guru brings you TO Krishna not away from him. Siksa gurus, maybe. re: diksa gurus; for your statement to be correct, then you have to explain - how, when & where they were authorized by Srila Prabhupada.

How do you know this? Was he qualified & authorized to do so? Can you tell us when, how and where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura authorized H.H.Sridhar Maharaja to initiate disciples? As you claim. However, the type of guru, which Lord Caitanya is encouraging everyone to become, is clearly established in the detailed purports given by Srila Prabhupada following this verse: "That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam." (C.c. Madhya, 7.128, purport) "One may remain a householder, medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn't matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam [...] It is best not to accept any disciples." (C.c. Madhya, 7.130, purport) We can see that these instructions do not demand that the gurus in question first attain any particular level of realisation before they act. The request is immediate. From this it is clear everyone is simply encouraged to preach what they may know, and in so doing become siksa, or instructing, gurus. This is further clarified by the stipulation for the siksa guru to remain in that position, and not then go on to become a diksa guru: "It is best not to accept any disciples." (C.c. Madhya, 7.130, purport) To accept disciples is the main business of a diksa guru, whereas a siksa guru simply needs to carry on his duties and preach Krsna Consciousness as best he can. It is clear from Srila Prabhupada's purports that in the above verse Lord Caitanya is actually authorising siksa gurus, not diksa gurus. Can you name one such person? Can you provide any proof of this? Your above statement stinks of racism. Did you also learn this from H.H. BR Sridhara Maharaja?

What is interesting about the above quote is "He has also agreed to cooperate with our society." Is there any evidence to suggest that maharaja's cooperation actualy materialised? Letter to: Jayapataka,71-02-23 So far until now my Godbrothers have regularly not cooperated with me and by the grace of my Spiritual Master, things are still going ahead. I am doing so many things which sometimes my Godbrothers out of envy criticize. But I know what is the circumstances how to do it. They do not know it. I know my business. So that is their fault. Their own buddhi business, then simply criticize “How he is acting.’’ Find out some fault.[720504RC.MEX] Even in the spiritual field, my godbrothers are envious. You see? So as soon as you become successful, there will be many enemies. That is natural. That is the sign of success. [731103RC.DEL] Just like all my godbrothers. They are dead men. And therefore they are envious of my activities. They have no life. If you want to make easy-going life, showing the Deity and then sleep, then it is a failure movement. [740713MW.LA] I guess you mean diksha guru. Aside from the qualification, Srila Prabhupada also taught that specific authorisation from the predecessor acarya was also essential before anyone could act as a diksa guru: "On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krsna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual benediction from higher authorities." (SP Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68) "One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport) However Srila Prabhupada says that his godbrothers never received any authorization at the time of HDGBS passing, neither were they qualified at any time. “In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. [...] Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen some one who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body.He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mis sion. [...] So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorisedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure.[....] Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them." (Srila Prabhupada Letter, 28th April, 1974)

I only asked a question and never passed any judgement. Is it true or not? That Vivekanada ate mother cow (in full knowledge). You are wrong on this point also. "Hriday, the Master’s nephew and companion, actually regarded him [as] a moron" (Sil, 1998). http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/ramakrishna.asp & "Kripal demonstrates that the saint's famous ecstatic and visionary experiences were driven by mystico-erotic energies that he neither fully accepted nor understood. The result is a striking new vision of Ramakrishna as a conflicted, homoerotic Tantric mystic that is as complex as it is clear and as sympathetic to the historical Ramakrishna as it is critical of his traditional portraits." http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/13682.ctl While it is true that Srila Prabhupada had few nice things to say regarding RamKrishna it is untruthful of you to suggest that he regarded everybody else as a 'rascal'. The difference here between the example of Vivekananda and the aspiring disciples of Prabhupada is that Prabhupada's disciples were doing the sinful actions in ignorance but once they understood that it was sinful they stopped. Whereas Vivekananda knowingly ate mother cow. It is not clear what you are trying to say. Probably some truth to it though.

Why are we Ganging Up on Dhanurdhara Swami? http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/10-06/editorials797.htm BY: GURUKULI DASA [.........] Gauri das is now the temple president at the Bhaktivedanta Manor, one of the most prominent temples in ISKCON, he receives a wage of about US$ 60000 a year complete with and enviable pension scheme from Prabhupada’s money for his “service”. He is honored as a senior and respectable member of the community. He has a contract that when he leaves, for two years he will receive the full salary.

Done that & this is what i get ..... <CENTER> </CENTER> <CENTER> </CENTER> I would if it was there & if it was in English. The conversation quoted in a previous post by another anon guest was spoken in Bengali & translated by HHBCS. I certainly would beg forgiveness if i had been doing as you claim. I'm sure you must be refering to someone else here.

Is this the same Vevekananda who ate mother cow & drank wine?