uninitiated siksha gurus?

[Guruvani 0]

Should persons who are uninitiated come foreward to give siksha in forums or other places? Sometimes we find uninitiated devotees chastising initiated devotees and speaking as though they are more learned or experienced in Krishna consciousness even though they have never seen the need for taking diksha. Should uninitiated devotees be attempting to give siksha to senior initiated devotees even though they themselves have never been initiated either through rtvik or direct diksha?

Can one be guru if he himself has not been accepted by a guru of the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya?

Should not such devotees attempt to get initiated before they come foreward to act as siksha gurus and chastise initiated devotees who actually performed service to a spiritual master in a tangible way?

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

What if you are already a born vaishnava, who knew krishna from birth. Then do they still need initiation? because they already knew krishna and also have various types of Gurus and know about those Gurus from birth.

 

 

[yasodanandana 0]

we have seen so many bad things done by "initiate devotees", "brahmanas", "gurus"... that these titles do not guarantee that who is speaking says the truth, or even have not gross material interests in saying something

 

so it is not only "uninitiated's" fault

 

for me also, even if i respect him highly (i may be a tremendous offender even if i may be better situated in a "bureaucratic" sense), an initiated in a ritvik way is not initiated... when and where srila prabupada accepted him?

[gHari 0]

If they are right, then does it matter who notices?

But then, why should they care? What could possibly be their motivation?

 

This is a toughie. Perhaps a more senior God-brother could help detect their motivation for interfering where they have no business.

 

What do guru, sadhu, sastra say?

[yasodanandana 0]

rules, regulations and etiquette have to be taught by love

[Govindaram 1]

if people provided more information on their profiles maybe we'd know who was initiated or not, but at the end of the day this is only a forum, and in a forum everyone is entitled to there opinions right/wrong, and there's sort of an equality between people that visit them..but maybe I'm wrong /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Guruvani 0]

Is love a pandering to the false ego and misonceptions of a soul in illusion? Or, is love telling the truth though it may seem unpalatable to some?

Love is not a sentimental, artificial pandering of the false ego. If someone is offended by the truth then they are not seeking the truth, rather some endorsement of their own misconceptions.

[Guruvani 0]

The only thing I have ever heard about is that persons born in the dhama (Vrindavan/Mayapur) do not need initiation.

But, we can see from the example of Srila Prabhupada that both he and his spiritual master were born in very pure Vaishnava families yet they were obliged to take formal diksha anyway.

All the great acharyas whether they were born in the dhama or not have accepted diksha, so I guess we can see from their example that diksha is necessary if one wants to become a preacher and teacher of Krishna consciousness.

 

I don't think that being born in a Hindu family in New York with some acquaintance with Krishna exempts one from taking diksha.

[yasodanandana 0]

 

 

of course you are joking.... and maybe you post for joke not to hear answers........

 

as i have said....... titles are not enough... and if they are backed by qualities it is not so difficult to be respectiful

 

but if you are promoting more education and respect (for everyone) i completely agree

[theist 1]

to see someone advertise themselves as a "senior intiated devotee" and express dismay that someone from the great unwashed class would dare speak to him. But how are we, the visionless, to know who is a "senior initiated devotee" or not?

 

When they appear on an open forum how can we be sure who they are?

 

How do we know they are being truthful and are really intiated?

 

We don't know what senior means. Does it refer to the date when one received his intiation ceremony?

 

And is that what senior really means anyway? Is that how we tell who is the most advanced and the order of their advancement is then to be based on some material dating system of when that ceremony was performed?

 

Or are they to be revealed by Paramatma and through the life they lead, and the words they speak?

 

Is it a characteristic of senior devotees to feel they are so superior and flled with transcendental knowledge that they can speak in indiscriminate ways to others without considering the others feelings in the name of "the cutting method of preaching."

 

Personally I am not impressed with your certificate of intiation, or the kite string around your neck. How you treat others says much more to me than that.

 

You are obviously referring to yesterday's events. Senior devotees don't feel a license to attack others just because they offer a differing opinon.

 

Well in that regard we can all meditate on this verse:

 

 

Sharp arrows which peirce the heart do not cause as much suffering as the arrows of harsh, insulting words that become lodged within the heart when spoken by uncivilized men.-SB 11.23.3

 

 

When I run into someone who feels he has license to call people a demon and further dump insult upon insult upon them without even attempting to dialouge with them, I know that person is not a senior devotee.

 

Om shanti shanti

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani 0]

This thread addresses a principle and I don't remember making claims to being a senior devotee or having any superiority to anyone. If you want to make accusations based upon your own speculations then that is your own imagination and nothing more.

[theist 1]

Yeah right. The pausible deniability clause. Ok, if you say so.

[Guest guest]

What is ritvik in Isckon dharma?

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

What is Galva please, people mentioned it earlier, i am just curious and want to know. thank you.

[theist 1]

Guruvani,

 

How do we recognize a senior devotee? What are his characteristics?

[Guest guest]

Theist, I seriously doubt the sincerity of some of these posters. Sounds like word games and nothing more.

 

Could be a demoniac testing of the waters to see where to stike.

 

Guess Guest

[Govindaram 1]

Hare Krishna

 

Hello Prabhu have you a spiritual master and are you initiated and living by the 4 regulative princples of devotional service, chanting 16 rounds of the Maha-Mantra, EVERY day, please don't make excuses everyone has them, if you r then you have a right to be high and mighty:) ...Hare Krishna. if not then?

[Guest guest]

You just keep doubting. Not my problem at all. I asked what ritvik means in ISckon dharma because I don't know what ritvik means in Isckon dharma. In general Hindu dharma it is a vedic priest. Now I am interested in the meaning og ritvik in ISCkon. Tell me if you know. Don't tell me if you don't know.

[livingentity 0]

what you are saying, Guruvani.

 

Are you saying that uninitiated devotees should only come in and read what the far more advanced initiated disciples are saying? Can the uninitiated ask questions? If so, after asking the questions, can they respond at all to the answer?

 

Also, for example, if on Thursday a devotee is uninitiated and then on Friday he is - does he suddenly in that 24 hr timeframe have all the right answers and all the knowledge of the vedas and previous acaryas to be able to participate in the forums and answer the questions of the ignorant unintiated ones? Even though, many of the uninitiated ones have perhaps lived in temples for a time, studied Prabhupada's books, lectures, tapes etc for many years longer than the newly initiated ones.

 

This is confusing to me because of some past history of initiated disciples who were supposedly advanced but proved otherwise through their deeds, actions and speech.

 

This is a true story - I met one newly initiated devotee who did not know how many rounds we were to vow to chant upon initiation. Shouldn't at least this basic knowledge have "appeared" in his head when he became initiated? If he did not know this basic thing upon initiation then how would he suddenly be knowledgeable enough to participate in the forums even though he was initiated?

 

Thank you Guruvani for your time. I look forward to your answers.

[Guest guest]

Govindaram and Others,

 

I really did not have anybody who has yet responded to me in mind. But I think it's funny you've responded.

 

My question or comment was simply to Theist and was very general, not meant to point anybody out. I was just inquiring as to his feeling about some posts - not who was posting them.

 

Calm down. Hare Krsna.

 

Guess Guest

[Govindaram 1]

sorry i'll ignore your comments form now on...hare krishna

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

Devotee A tries to solve a problem of a depressed devotee, but also uses a little sarcasm to criticize the world in its state today.

 

Devotee B misunderstands, then responds quickly due to that misunderstanding.

 

Devotee A is enraged and starts to explain his point and also looks down on devotee B and C, D, E, F and beyond! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Devotees C, D, E, F, G, beyond! understand the misunderstanding and start to apologize to devotee A and say "hey! its ok don't take it so seriously"

 

Devotee A then returns and starts posting his views again, he posts one post and explains his views.

 

Devotee B does not understand/ or does not want to understand Devotee A's arguement and starts to mock devotee A.

 

Devotee A mocks devotee B.

 

Administrator comes in and stops this...

 

Devotee A then leaves..

 

Devotee B makes up a new post and tries to further explain his arguements.

 

Devotee C, D, E, Beyond basically post after it.

 

Some people know the truth, the others further try to break down the codes that devotee B is trying to set. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

But every one loves Devotees here, because we are all the devotees are in love with Krishna.../images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

The end /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

______

 

 

[Guest guest]

I also was referring to the many recent posts and not just this thread. It was a general question to Theist which he may not even respond to considering some of my previous posts to him. People are proud.

 

Something he said earlier in this thread made me investigate whether he was thinking along the same lines as I.

 

Others trying to psychoanalyze what I'm saying or doing is a joke... just another chance to "troll".

 

Guess Guest

[Govindaram 1]

if your q's were to only Theist prabhu why didn't you say so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! then we could all have left well alone!! ohh my God I wish you'd take a HUMBLE pill!

[Guest guest]

that always happens and there is no need to be overly concerned about it.

 

I tend to view forums like this one as similar to a Sunday feast. Everyone shows up for whatever reason. Advanced devotees,perennial "fringes" (like myself),backsiders coming back,mayavadis, new agers, crazies, the just plain hungry,atheist to argue,other religionists to convert or disrupt, curious and the genuine beginners.

 

Now from each of these people I can certainly learn something. The lesson will be peculiar to the person perhaps but within each resides the Supersoul, who if I learn to hear properly, will enlighten me through everyone and everything."The environment is friendly" B.R. Sridhar told us.

 

This thread has inspired me to start reading about the brahman Avadhuta, SB 11.7.24 and onwards. Wonderful. The SB is amazing.

 

I just finnished chapter 8. The prostitute Pingala( one of the Avadhuta's guru's) has just found detachment and peace, now relying on the Lord.

 

I don't know if she was initiated formally. But the Avadhuta accepted her as guru and I accept him, so I guess that makes her my grandmother guru. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Hare Krsna

Theist