uninitiated siksha gurus?

[Guest guest]

Govindaram, I replied to Theist and I also addressed him.

 

Get real. Don't blame me for your unconsciousness.

 

Guess Guest

[Govindaram 1]

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[Guest guest]

Glad you are still talking to me. I really appreciate most of what you say.

 

I am much more suspicious that you. And I have my reasons.

 

Perhaps the concerns of the Kennedy assasination witnesses were dismissed by others as paranoia. Fact is, about 3 years later all 16 witnesses were gone.

 

There are many reasons I think that all as not as it seems here on this board. But I'm not here to convince anyone of that.

 

My problems don't concern you guys anyway.

 

I was just wondering if you were suspect of some posts. But you appear to blissed out from the Bhagavatam to address it.

 

Read on. Those are higher thoughts.

 

Guess Guest

[Govindaram 1]

I NEED a break see ya all soon.....that's all folks!

[theist 1]

Sorry i couldn't respond earlier. I couldn't get in most of the day.

 

I am suspicious of everything, especially my own mind. This entire universe is founded on wrong motive and clever attempts to illusion others, only to become further illusioned ourselves.

 

Beware of quicksand.

[gHari 0]

Theist and friends,

 

Your summary of the variety of posters and posts we get here was illuminating, tender, and humorous. I love it all. In retrospect, even the dozen times over a dozen years I've been savagely attacked by the crazies, some of whom spouting various scriptures even the Vedas, even touting high parampara authority, have made me stronger and have made Krsna and His devotees dearer and dearer to me. To a case these characters were each Gita textbook demoniac: all the charming words that Krsna used to describe them in the Bhagavad-gita. There's nothing better than a picture, especially a picture that can't get too close.

 

Just thinking of the Kennedy thing, a few days ago I was speculating about the dangers of being a very powerful preacher like Prabhupada: the beef lobby, the tobacco lobby, the alcohol lobby, the retail lobby, the casino lobby, the sectarian religion lobbies and all that crass would be set to defame and even kill such a guru. Rumours abounded about CIA operatives in ISKCON monitoring Srila Prabhupada. And of course, we all know what they did to Jesus.

 

As far as being criticized or ridiculed or advised on the internet, I have never considered any poster to be my Sisya Guru. They are all my jiva friends. And what are friends for?

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

gHari, I was thinking along similar lines. The Kennedy people were just witnesses and they were killed. They were not trying to change the world or upset the status quo. Indeed, how much more peril a revolutinary would suffer?

 

I think that is another aspect of Prabhupada's transcendence that most of us miss. He must have been protected by God Himself... Alas, only to be betrayed by his most trusted confidants.

 

The spying is everywhere. And they do use the information to act on people in many subversive and mysterious ways. The powers that be want to dominate the world and they are using the citizen's wealth and energy to amass techonological facilities to help them further those ends. Nothing and no one will be allowed to play any game but theirs.

 

You are being watched now.

 

I really don't want to harp on this point. Just wanted to acknowledge yours.

 

Guess Guest

[I_love_krishna_ 0]

I mean, we are not violent, all we want people to do is chant "Hare Krishna Mantra" to make them give up bad habits like Alcoholism, being in gangs, Gambling, Smoking, Meat-Eating.

 

so that they can gain good habits like Universal love, happiness and simplicity.

 

So how can the government and any one else not like such a thing?

[Guest guest]

I_love_krishna, spies welcome? Not as a rule.

 

Do you want to grant anyone access to your house and thoughts just to show you have nothing to hide? Of course not. Of course there are things that are nobody's business.

 

But ISKCON has an open-door policy.

 

Spies were known to be operative in South America actually. The drug cartels that owned the newspapers complained so much about the devotees, that the government sent in spies to observe. They acted as recruits and lived in the temples as bhaktas.

 

Later, they reported back to their superiors that it was so nice they wanted to join them and be a Hare Krsna. lol!

 

But I don't think the powers that be are so convinced.

 

There are many dangerous socialistic ideas here to them in our spiritual philosphy. One idea is that a government man should be a military man and personally fight. How things might change if all the public were convinced of that. Abstinence from sinful principles, free education and medical and so on.

 

And our spiritual philosophy can empower people to be truly independent thinkers.

 

This stuff is not in the monopolistic agenda of the powers on high.

 

Guess Guest

[gHari 0]

I'm not sure if it is only mad elephants that embrace the various conspiracy theories, like Prabhupada's alleged betrayal. I certainly have no proof or inner feeling to justify risking my eternal soul.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

gHari, you are an example of why I originally posted Theist. In your "What A Thread" post you support conspiracies. Then later, criticize them.

 

This kind of dualism I do not find to be consistent or sincere. I have noticed it in many other posts.

 

Guess Guest

[gHari 0]

GG,

 

What conspiracies was I supporting? I may have referenced rumours, but time has shown me that too many devotees are without proper discrimination, and many such rumours are too often simply nonsense - Mahavishnu case in point. Once bitten by Mahavishnu, I believe nothing without fact anymore.

 

Be assured, I will never speak of CIA in ISKCON, or any of that other stuff, without noting such stories to be only rumour. I would recommend going back to these other situations to which you allude, and determine if there is a similar logical error there. And somehow discover the source of these mental errors. Seeing such gross errors, one should be careful to not hold too steady to any conclusions from such a mind.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

gHari, I cannot respond to you.

 

I have more than adequately addressed your statements, but they keep getting deleted by the adminsitrators.

 

Guess Guest

[gHari 0]

I saw one of them and would suggest that my last post covers it too. Emotion is clouding the issue. Just accept that I cannot sit back and allow such rumours to be presented as fact, especially when I have researched them to my own satisfaction.

 

Just accept that when I prefaced the comment with "I am not sure" it meant exactly that. I think man landed on the moon in 1969, but "I am not sure". I will not bet my soul on either conclusion. Therefore I will not say "Man landed on the moon.", but rather "I think man landed on the moon." This is a more accurate description of my view.

 

I don't know if it was the Admin or whether Krsna is showing His mercy to us both today by veiling the effects of the Yuga.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

Fact: Prabhupada brought up the issue.

 

Fact: Alot of people are opinionated without sufficient knowledge.

 

People take everything they say as evidence. They think, what? You don't belive me? I said it, why don't you belive me?

 

Fact: There is alot happening that you or I don't know and world events and history. And most of it comes under this heading of conspiracy.

 

What is happeing even now with my posts is an example.

 

Guess Guest

[gHari 0]

I read several times the months up to the end and concluded each time that Srila Prabhupada did not intend by his words what many were concluding. From my point of view it is not logical to say that Prabhupada brought up the issue. The context reveals the true purport to the words.

 

In conversation the pro-conspiracy proponents were constantly making logical errors, based on rhetoric and half-truths, and quite frankly they lost my respect as being worthy of even holding any sort of opinion on the matter. It was lynch mob pandemonium. If one cannot be objective, then we should indeed expect all sorts of hasty illogical conclusions and oversights. And that was what I watched in disbelief and embarrassment.

 

But no responsible person, vaishnava or demon, should convict without due course, especially in a case where there is substantial opposition to their viewpoint from people with no self-interest.

[theist 1]

"In retrospect, even the dozen times over a dozen years I've been savagely attacked by the crazies, some of whom spouting various scriptures even the Vedas, even touting high parampara authority, have made me stronger and have made Krsna and His devotees dearer and dearer to me."

 

gHari,

This reminded me of when first found out about devotee forums some years back. New to the internet i was surfing around and landed on VNN. I stumbled into a conversation where you were being viciously attacked by all sides for expressing your desire to reley on Supersoul as guru and depending on Him to enlighten you about His other aspects as Guru, that being shastra sadhu and the fully realized souls.

 

I still remember that. You were being bombarded by pages of copy and paste quotes all trying to explain why you can't rely on the Lord in the heart.

 

I was amazed. To me all those quotes point to just the opposite. That is our despaate need to rely on the Lord in the heart. Our need for His direction in seeking His grace to hear His voice from whatever quarter it may come.

 

I guess he was teaching you tolerance at that time.

[gHari 0]

Oh that they would all be cut and paste posters. It's the venom from the adrenalin junkies I don't like. You know the type: like the foul-mouthed demon on the street that you just ignore and walk away from, or the tiny yappy dog at your heels.

[Guest guest]

 

Livingentity and Theist- thankyou for your posts, i agree with what you are saying.

 

In my personal opinion i do not feel that anyone under the age of 40 should take initiation (set out by Iskcon) but by all means have association with someone they aspire towards and serve thy Guru they have chosen. I have grown up at the temple since i was born, and now at the age of 27 and i have seen so many people take initiation and now feel that they are superior having done so.

 

these forums are meant for people to share knowledge and by saying that "initiated devotees" (are more devoted than those who are not) are more qualified to give answers will only take people away from the forum.

 

Haribol,

Jay

 

[yasodanandana 0]

yes... initiation has a meaning if one follows, nor if he has done a simple "bureaucratic" affiliation

 

and if one follows he wants the good of the people and gives good answers, so there is no need of "extra labels" (surely a little more attention with sannyasis is required ... we call them "maharaja(great king)"!!!)

 

but if we want to say that all the dealings have to be conducted with more respect (i am the first to be offensive) i completely agree

 

so, let us take the "positive" sense of this forum

[Guruvani 0]

How can one call a society of devotees a bureaucracy? In ISKCON today one accepts a spiritul master based upon his faith. No committee delegates who your spiritual master should be. The GBC has the responsibility to make sure that some standard be met by anyone who wants to function as a guru in ISKCON. That is not a bureaucracy.

 

Is that what you learned from your Gaudiya Math guru; to insult and condemn the whole society of ISKCON? So, I guess your criticizing and demeaning all of ISKCON and the thousands of members is not offensive?

 

It's easy to hide beind a computer and accuse someone else of not following principles and condescend arrogantly as if some showbottle external profile is how we judge each other.

 

We don't have the qualifications to judge others based upon whether we think they are following or not. The shastra has stated that when one attains a spontaneuous attraction to Sri Krishna he is no longer bound by regulative principles.

 

It is a very dangerous and offensive path to think we judge a devotee by his external features and behaviours. In the Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krishna warns very severly that we should not judge devotees even if they sometimes fall short of the standard. Judging devotees by what we can see with our own eyes is a very ignorant attitude. None of us are fit to be the judge of who is devotee and who is not. We have no real understanding of the degree of love they have for Krishna based upon what we think we know.

 

If learning hatred and bitterness towards ISKCON is what you learned from your Gaudiya Math guru then you would have been better off without any guru at all. Is that what he teaches......hate of ISKCON? I thought a guru was supposed to teach love of God, not hate for ISCON?

[Guest guest]

Guruvani,

 

Why not stick to the topic of the thread? Of course one should always accept siksa from devotees that are senior. Now what do you mean by senior. I take it as senior in understanding. You seem to regard it as some calculation of linear time.

 

Please tell us how to recognize a senior intiated devotee, especially on these forums.

[Guruvani 0]

There are two forms seniority. Srila Prabhupada expresses that in this statement he made about Sridhar Maharaja -

Srila Prabhupada said about Sridhar Maharaja:

 

"by age and experience he is senior to me"

 

So, from the words of Srila Prabhupada we can see that both age and experience are a criterian for calculating seniority.

We should see that those who are older than us and those who are more experienced that us are in some way senior to us.

There is an ettiquete that is followed in the sampradaya and generally any devotee that becomes a disciple before us is to be considered as senior to us. Because we have no qualifications to know who is advanced or not, the proper ettiquete is to consider than those who became devotees or disciples before us should be considered senior to us. Otherwise we go to judge devotees based upon our own opinion rather than any genuine standard.

 

In the profiles there could be information about one's history in the movement, but from what I have seen here it would not make any difference to most of the members here. They prefer to make their own judgements based upon opinions of who they like or don't like and I don't see that knowing one's seniority or history in the movement would make much difference to them.

[theist 1]

 

There are two forms seniority. Srila Prabhupada expresses that in this statement he made about Sridhar Maharaja -

Srila Prabhupada said about Sridhar Maharaja:

 

"by age and experience he is senior to me"

 

So, from the words of Srila Prabhupada we can see that both age and experience are a criterian for calculating seniority.

We should see that those who are older than us and those who are more experienced that us are in some way senior to us.

 

 

OK with that. We should respect all elders that we meet as general etiquette, what to speak of vaisnavas. What do you think he meant be experienced? I take that as experienced in Krsna Consciousness. That may be obvious. But then what does that mean? And how are we to know who has been experiencing authentic Krsna consciousness? Why would we hear from anyone else?

 

 

It was the willingness of younger so-called less experienced devotees in following the shiksa of the senior more experienced devotees that led to the zonal acarya fiasco in 1978.

 

Or,someone may have been around the temple a long time and knows the proper way to do things there, that is a type of experience, but it has limitations. Take him down the street a bit and he may become disorientated.

 

How to recognize genuine Krsna Conscious experience may still be something a little deeper and more profound, less obvious at first. It may not show up on the profile.

 

 

 

There is an ettiquete that is followed in the sampradaya and generally any devotee that becomes a disciple before us is to be considered as senior to us. Because we have no qualifications to know who is advanced or not, the proper ettiquete is to consider than those who became devotees or disciples before us should be considered senior to us. Otherwise we go to judge devotees based upon our own opinion rather than any genuine standard.

 

 

Yes it can certainly help one progress to a point. And as neophytes we don't know who to hear from and who to ignore. And our addiction is to hear from the materially conditioned mind which is what we want to move away from. But we can see from the example I gave above that even those senior to a new disciple in terms of age and how long he has been around as well as his APPARENT experience in Krsna consciousness should not be blindly followed.

 

Perhaps if a severe conflict arises one may have to respectfully disagree and stop hearing from that person. But how would one know?

 

 

In the profiles there could be information about one's history in the movement, but from what I have seen here it would not make any difference to most of the members here. They prefer to make their own judgements based upon opinions of who they like or don't like and I don't see that knowing one's seniority or history in the movement would make much difference to them.

 

 

Well how can someone be expected to believe a profile left on an internet forum? Is that how we are to determine who to hear about God from? Sounds like a receipe for disaster to me. People can write anything on those profiles.

 

Coming to an open forum like this one can't expect everyone to respect even the siddhanta of anothers parampara fully. Do you expect that someone from Sri sampradaya has to accept everything you say because you are a GV? That is unreasonable.

 

A forum is not the same as taking on some offical membership at the local temple.

 

Anyway, why would a senior vaisnava be demanding or even expecting respect from anyone in the first place? Other than his own students perhaps and that for their own good.

[Guest guest]

It is essential to accept diksa and Siksa from a guru in order to

gain entrance into bhagavad-bhajana.

In the Hari-bhakti-vilAsa the following is said regarding diksa

 

divyam jnanaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saNkSayam

tasmAd-dikSeti sA proktA deSikais-tattva-kovidaiH

 

( Hari-bhakti-vilasa, 2.9)

That religious undertaking which

bestows divya-jnana or transcendental knowledge and destroys papa (sin), papa-bija (the seed of sin), and avidya (ignorance) to the root

is called diksa by

learned authorities in the absolute truth.

 

For these reasons, a faithful bhakta will dedicate his entire self to the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva, offer pranama unto him, and take diksa from him by receiving a Vaisnava mantra in accordance

with the rules and regulations of the sastra.

 

The meaning of

divya-jnana referred to above is that by His causeless mercy Sri Bhagavan,

which manifests itself as the sat guru will turn the mood of jiva from previously being averse toward the Lord to the performance of bhagavat bhajana, implanting in the heart of the jiva bhakti seva vasana the seed of the desire to serve the Lord.

 

Yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa vidhanatah

Tatha diksa vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrinam

 

Just as bell metal is turned to gold by a particular alchemical

process, a man can obtain to the state of being a dvija (second born) by the

process of Vavaisnava disksa.

 

The word dvijatva used here does not mean the state of being a dvija by initiation into the sacred thread like that of the ksatriyas and vaisyas.

By the procedure of diksa the disciple is born again. This is called birth by diksa (daiksa janma).

The sat guru gives sambandha-jnana concerning bhagavad-tattva.

As a consequence of this, papa, papa-bija, and avidya are all destroyed to the root.

This procedure of diksa is not completed in one day; rather, it is begun from the day of pancaratrika diksa.

 

etaiH karma-phalair-devi nyuna jAti kulodbhavaM

Sudro py Agama-sampanno dvijo bhavati saMskRtaH

 

As a result of these activities, O goddess, even a sudra born in

a low caste family becomes twice-born and endowed with the

agama(the scripture).

 

O Vamoru All the auspicious activities of men are worthless without accepting diksa.

A person who is bereft of diksa obtains birth in the animal species of life.

( Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.6)

 

Popocatepetl

the fool of Her Majesty