(unknown)

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

I think that is it tho. If your food is made on a machine that

processes milk products, chances are some traces of that product will

be in your food.

 

I think that most products that do not contain milk etc. but are made

on those same machines, usually have a statement at the bottom of the

ingredients for people with allergies and such. Pretty much means

that the industry itself believes those foods do have traces of it in

there themselves.

 

Nikki

 

, " Jason M. Abels " <jason@j...>

wrote:

 

>

> Well, I'm not particularly concerned about what my food my have

touched.

> I'm more worried about what's in my food.

>

>

> --

> Jason M. Abels

> http://jason.abels.us/

> " Once and for all, I'm far away. Hardly believe, finally the shades

are

> raised " - Rearviewmirror, Pearl Jam

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

For my part, what I find hardest is buying bread, especially store-baked

stuff, as it doesn't tend to have an ingrediants list.

 

Speaking of which, are there any guidelines anyone can offer on what type of

breads are most likely to be vegan?

 

John

-

" Sarah Oelke " <osarah741

 

Wednesday, April 23, 2003 5:04 PM

Re: (unknown)

 

 

> I have never gotten confused ate the grocery store,

> just frustrated. Being vegan, I found out immidiately,

> entails reading every single ingredient list that you

> come across. Many things won't be labeled vegetarian,

> because it may have just been accident that the item

> tastes good without animal products. (You get to

> thinking that everything has something animal-derived

> in it.) The first week that I became vegan I ended up

> crying, realizing that it was pretty hard. Now I have

> acclimatized, and I realize that you only have to read

> a label once. I think the first week was something

> akin to being hazed. Being vegan now is second

> nature. Have a good day everyone!

> Sarah

>

>

>

> --- Surya Burdick <californiagnomes wrote:

> > I get very confused at the grocery store trying to

> > find vegan. SOmetimes it says dairy fre but contains

> > milk rennant so I don't buy it, or it seems vegan by

> > all accounts but it is an obvious vegetarian product

> > that should say vegan if it is, therefore I figure

> > it's not somehow. I'm probably slipping a little

> > dairy into my food at this point by accident. I'm

> > glad to have this new group, I learn alot.

> >

>

>

>

>

> The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo

> http://search.

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, a lot of " non-dairy " creamers have casein, a milk protein, in them, as

do a number of soy cheeses. I was never a big cheese fan anyway, except

maybe on my pasta. Sadly, you have to read the ingredients; there's no

other way around it.

 

Danielle

 

 

 

" You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin

 

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

Surya Burdick <californiagnomes

 

 

Re: (unknown)

Tue, 22 Apr 2003 17:42:46 -0700 (PDT)

 

I get very confused at the grocery store trying to find vegan. SOmetimes it

says dairy fre but contains milk rennant so I don't buy it, or it seems

vegan by all accounts but it is an obvious vegetarian product that should

say vegan if it is, therefore I figure it's not somehow. I'm probably

slipping a little dairy into my food at this point by accident. I'm glad to

have this new group, I learn alot.

 

Danielle Kichler <veggietart wrote:Surya,

 

someone once said veganism is a journey, not a destination. Don't feel too

bad about your slip-ups--unless we prepare all our own food or dine only in

restaurants that are vegan, we're bound to err. You're newly vegan, and

it's an adjustment period.

 

Of course, I'm a newbie, too. I went from ovo-lacto to vegan in a matter of

months, and I know I'm not perfect, but at least I try.

 

Danielle

 

 

 

" You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin

 

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

Surya Burdick <californiagnomes

 

 

(unknown)

Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:21:05 -0700 (PDT)

 

Hi, I am very new to these chats so please feel free to correct

anything i'm doing wrong. I have recently gone from vegetarian to vegan, I

tried earlier this year and fell of the vegan wagon with some cheese, milk,

ect. Oh well. So I am trying and need some support. I am a mom to two

wonderful young children, 31 years old, from California, pretty liberal

politically and very protective of the environment, I am trying to eat vegan

for health and animal rights issues, as well as environmental issues. I do

not wear leather so that's a good start. I am married and a stay at home

mom.

 

 

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

 

 

_______________

STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*

http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/24/03 4:37:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes:

Sadly, you have to read the ingredients; there's no

other way around it.

 

 

see..i actually like to read ingredients...

then it gives me a chance to weed out other things.....

i'd much rather eat something that was all natural, er didn't have stabilizers and the like in it..the less processed the better imo....

so, being vegan just gives me even more excuse to have to read everything, and i get to catch all the BHT's and acytlemacrochlorinated crap as well

fraggle

[Guest guest]

weird..never seen bread without an ingredient panel, even the store bought stuff

 

most of the local "craft" and "hearth" style breads made around here(bay area california)(and there are at least a dozen local small commercial bakeries) are vegan, and many of them are organic

 

In a message dated 4/24/03 5:12:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mcxg46 writes:

 

Hi,

 

For my part, what I find hardest is buying bread, especially store-baked

stuff, as it doesn't tend to have an ingrediants list.

 

Speaking of which, are there any guidelines anyone can offer on what type of

breads are most likely to be vegan?

 

John

[Guest guest]

Thanks Laura :-) Passing this on to family and friends!!!!! Have a wonderful day, afternoon or evening..lol...not sure where you live again.

Bridget :-)

 

Laura Moore <child_of_the_80s wrote:

Thought i'd share this. Sent to me by one of my mates.Laura :)If you truly love Nature, you will find beauty everywhere. - Vincent Van GoghPost your free ad now! Canada Personals

[Guest guest]

Personally, I'd like to be able to just pick things

off the shelf like everyone does. It is amazing

though to find out all the crud that you used to put

in your body, and that everyone still does.

Sarah

 

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo

http://search.

[Guest guest]

Hi John,

 

Not sure where you are located, but in stores in the US like

Dominick's and Jewel, they usually have cards in the bakery that show

what ingredients each of their products have in them. I think I may

be the only customer that asks to see these too. Because every

time I do they look at me like " How do you know about those? "

 

nikki

Be proactive, not reactive

 

 

, " John Davis " <mcxg46@d...> wrote:

> Hi,

>

> For my part, what I find hardest is buying bread, especially store-

baked

> stuff, as it doesn't tend to have an ingrediants list.

>

> Speaking of which, are there any guidelines anyone can offer on

what type of

> breads are most likely to be vegan?

>

> John

[Guest guest]

Hi Fraggle

 

> weird..never seen bread without an ingredient panel, even the store bought stuff

In the UK a lot of supermarket bread is "fresh baked" - it's just out on shelves, and gets put in a paper bag when you buy it, so no ingredients list! There is some pre-packaged stuff, but it's pretty dire tasting in my experience!

 

BB

Peter

 

---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03

[Guest guest]

I may be a little late on this, but I believe Ezekiel Bread is vegan. (The ingredients are taken right out of the holy scriptures: wheat, millet, barley, etc.) At least I think it's called Ezekiel Bread. It's like $3 at your local health food store.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*This message was brought to you by: Amy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>"John Davis"

> >

>Re: (unknown) >Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:30:31 +0100 > >Hi, > >For my part, what I find hardest is buying bread, especially store-baked >stuff, as it doesn't tend to have an ingrediants list. > >Speaking of which, are there any guidelines anyone can offer on what type of >breads are most likely to be vegan? > >John >- >"Sarah Oelke"

>

>Wednesday, April 23, 2003 5:04 PM >Re: (unknown) > > > > I have never gotten confused ate the grocery store, > > just frustrated. Being vegan, I found out immidiately, > > entails reading every single ingredient list that you > > come across. Many things won't be labeled vegetarian, > > because it may have just been accident that the item > > tastes good without animal products. (You get to > > thinking that everything has something animal-derived > > in it.) The first week that I became vegan I ended up > > crying, realizing that it was pretty hard. Now I have > > acclimatized, and I realize that you only have to read > > a label once. I think the first week was something > > akin to being hazed. Being vegan now is second > > nature. Have a good day everyone! > > Sarah > > > > > > > > --- Surya Burdick wrote: > > > I get very confused at the grocery store trying to > > > find vegan. SOmetimes it says dairy fre but contains > > > milk rennant so I don't buy it, or it seems vegan by > > > all accounts but it is an obvious vegetarian product > > > that should say vegan if it is, therefore I figure > > > it's not somehow. I'm probably slipping a little > > > dairy into my food at this point by accident. I'm > > > glad to have this new group, I learn alot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo > > http://search. > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > >

[Guest guest]

Amylia F wrote:

> I may be a little late on this, but I believe Ezekiel Bread is vegan.

> (The ingredients are taken right out of the holy scriptures: wheat,

> millet, barley, etc.) At least I /think/ it's called Ezekiel Bread.

> It's like $3 at your local health food store.

 

You know, I have yet to find a store bread that WASN'T vegan, apart from

those " butter-top " ones.

 

 

--

Jason M. Abels

http://jason.abels.us/

" Once and for all, I'm far away. Hardly believe, finally the shades are

raised " - Rearviewmirror, Pearl Jam

[Guest guest]

 

-

Amylia F

Friday, May 16, 2003 8:05 AM

(unknown)

 

If I had to follow a single teacher ie Jesus or a mythical pagan god..I would choose Jesus because his teachings speak wonders..such good sense on how we should be treating each-other..I would be foolish to ignore...also I think that a lot of Pagans today will have taken on a quality which will have originate from Jesus without knowing it...as it would be hard for anyone who is seeking the good in life to ignore.

 

Simon

 

 

 

I believe I have been terribly misinterpreted. --The few pagans I have come into contact with, usually only share their past bad experiences with some organized religions. The conversations never got so deep as to me asking what the history of their beliefs were, or what rituals they performed. I did take a psychology class once where we studied archetypes. I remember one called, "the orphan." There's many others, but it's been awhile. I also visited a bookstore and noticed that many of the archetypes were also the same names of tarot cards. I looked at books about goddesses, too. I hold different beliefs, but was grateful for being exposed to another set of beliefs.

Still being curious, especially wanting to know why so many pagans seem anti-organized religion, I explored pagan websites.-Not to find something evil, but to find answers to my questions. After finding this group, I thought I finally had a chance to get some real answers. I brought up human sacrifices only because it's what I've read about. ---Remember when I asked all those questions about heavy metal? Well, as a child, I was told metal was bad to listen to. But I was secretly attracted to metal by junior high. I wanted to know why it was so forbidden. I still have questions about it. That's why I asked about the difference between speed, death, and black metal; and how is metal related to classical music. This was my initial attempt to really understand a genre of music that I had limited access to.

I was trying to do the same thing with paganism. I only wanted to say what I had read about pagans, to see if anything could be dispelled. I am sorry it came out wrong. I am not anti-pagan, simply non-pagan.

At the same time, I find it rather odd, that rude remarks about organized religion are constantly allowed, but when I make comments about paganism, it's an atrocity. About those Christians, after Jesus died, does anyone remember how many of them were killed in arenas because they were different? Lions mauled and devoured their bodies, while men, women, and children watched and cheered the lions on. It was like a form of entertainment. Other Christians, who were trying to be like Jesus, "the light of the world," were mocked by having their bodies dipped in wax, and lit on fire. Even today, in China and I believe Sudan, as well as other countries, Christians have to have underground churches because their religion is illegal. They are persecuted-beaten, tortured, and even killed for being different. All groups of people have been persecuted over centuries and centuries. Instead of! comparing body counts, (which group has had the most slayings), or focusing on who's being persecuted right now, that should be our exact reason for asking questions, and getting educated. Because ignorance breeds fear, which grows up to be hate, and hate only destroys.

My feelings were truly hurt, especially when my profession as a teacher was subjected to scrutiny. I do not think it fair to be judged so harshly based-off of one isolated incident. I am not a perfect person. I am a mere vegan, who asks many questions in an attempt to gain knowledge.

I was over-joyed to find this vegan community-so much so, that I have actually saved dozens of emails to my flopy disk. Unfortunately, it would appear that perhaps I do not have the same beliefs as many other vegans here. And diversity among us is not being celebrated enough. Should I kindly be asked to leave, I will do so-as I do not want to be where I am not wanted. However, booting me out would be closing the door on the opportunity to destroy some possible misconceptions I have about pagans. That is all I have to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*This message was brought to you by: Amy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Amylia, why would I want you to leave? OK, so both of us are vegans, but we

vary widely from there, and as a group, we are incredibly diverse. True,

the Roman Empire did some vile things to Christians--and probably people of

other faiths as well--but I'm told that once they got religion, so to speak,

it hastened their downfall. I do my best not to include ALL people who

identify as Christian in my rants. It's equally hard to remember that there

are actually people who live their lives by Jesus' teachings, rather than

blather on about him, but live contrary to his words. Sadly, the latter

category is either the majority, or is an incredibly vocal minority.

 

Danielle

 

 

 

" You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin

 

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

" Amylia F " <amylia_21

 

 

(unknown)

Fri, 16 May 2003 00:05:02 -0700

 

_______________

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.

http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

 

 

 

I believe I have been terribly misinterpreted. --The few pagans I have come into contact with, usually only share their past bad experiences with some organized religions. The conversations never got so deep as to me asking what the history of their beliefs were, or what rituals they performed. I did take a psychology class once where we studied archetypes. I remember one called, "the orphan." There's many others, but it's been awhile. I also visited a bookstore and noticed that many of the archetypes were also the same names of tarot cards. I looked at books about goddesses, too. I hold different beliefs, but was grateful for being exposed to another set of beliefs.

Still being curious, especially wanting to know why so many pagans seem anti-organized religion, I explored pagan websites.-Not to find something evil, but to find answers to my questions. After finding this group, I thought I finally had a chance to get some real answers. I brought up human sacrifices only because it's what I've read about. ---Remember when I asked all those questions about heavy metal? Well, as a child, I was told metal was bad to listen to. But I was secretly attracted to metal by junior high. I wanted to know why it was so forbidden. I still have questions about it. That's why I asked about the difference between speed, death, and black metal; and how is metal related to classical music. This was my initial attempt to really understand a genre of music that I had limited access to.

I was trying to do the same thing with paganism. I only wanted to say what I had read about pagans, to see if anything could be dispelled. I am sorry it came out wrong. I am not anti-pagan, simply non-pagan.

At the same time, I find it rather odd, that rude remarks about organized religion are constantly allowed, but when I make comments about paganism, it's an atrocity. About those Christians, after Jesus died, does anyone remember how many of them were killed in arenas because they were different? Lions mauled and devoured their bodies, while men, women, and children watched and cheered the lions on. It was like a form of entertainment. Other Christians, who were trying to be like Jesus, "the light of the world," were mocked by having their bodies dipped in wax, and lit on fire. Even today, in China and I believe Sudan, as well as other countries, Christians have to have underground churches because their religion is illegal. They are persecuted-beaten, tortured, and even killed for being different. All groups of people have been persecuted over centuries and centuries. Instead of comparing body counts, (which group has had the most slayings), or focusing on who's being persecuted right now, that should be our exact reason for asking questions, and getting educated. Because ignorance breeds fear, which grows up to be hate, and hate only destroys.

My feelings were truly hurt, especially when my profession as a teacher was subjected to scrutiny. I do not think it fair to be judged so harshly based-off of one isolated incident. I am not a perfect person. I am a mere vegan, who asks many questions in an attempt to gain knowledge.

I was over-joyed to find this vegan community-so much so, that I have actually saved dozens of emails to my flopy disk. Unfortunately, it would appear that perhaps I do not have the same beliefs as many other vegans here. And diversity among us is not being celebrated enough. Should I kindly be asked to leave, I will do so-as I do not want to be where I am not wanted. However, booting me out would be closing the door on the opportunity to destroy some possible misconceptions I have about pagans. That is all I have to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*This message was brought to you by: Amy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*

 

 

 

To send an email to -

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Amylia

 

> At the same time, I find it rather odd, that rude remarks about organized religion are constantly allowed, but when I make

> comments about paganism, it's an atrocity.

 

No rude remarks about other peoples beliefs are allowed - others have had "slapped wrists" on the very rare ocassion that Christians or Muslims have been unfairly criticised - and if people go too far in criticising anyone's beliefs, they will end up on moderation (and maybe banned). However, I don't recall anyone asking Christians if they sacrifice babies!

 

> My feelings were truly hurt, especially when my profession as a teacher was subjected to scrutiny. I do not think it fair to be

> judged so harshly based-off of one isolated incident. I am not a perfect person. I am a mere vegan, who asks many

> questions in an attempt to gain knowledge.

 

Now come on - you basically asked if I sacrificed children. How would you react if someone asked you that question? I don't wish to upset you further, but shouldn't teachers be more aware than the rest of us how their questions might have an effect on people? I mean - have you ever asked any of your students whether they sacrifice children? If not, why not? If so, how did they respond.

 

> I was over-joyed to find this vegan community-so much so, that I have actually saved dozens of emails to my flopy disk.

> Unfortunately, it would appear that perhaps I do not have the same beliefs as many other vegans here. And diversity among

> us is not being celebrated enough. Should I kindly be asked to leave, I will do so-as I do not want to be where I am not

> wanted. However, booting me out would be closing the door on the opportunity to destroy some possible misconceptions I

> have about pagans.

 

I would only "boot" anyone out under extreme circumstances, and usually after that person had been put on moderation and refused to desist with whatever it was they were doing.

 

BB

Peter

 

---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03

[Guest guest]

Hi Simon

 

> If I had to follow a single teacher ie Jesus or a mythical pagan god..I would choose Jesus because his teachings speak

> wonders..such good sense on how we should be treating each-other..I would be foolish to ignore...also I think that a lot of

> Pagans today will have taken on a quality which will have originate from Jesus without knowing it...as it would be hard for

> anyone who is seeking the good in life to ignore.

 

You still seem to be working on the misapprehension that Pagans don't appreciate the teachings attributed to Jesus. I'm sure there are one or two who don't but the vast majority (in my experience) think of him as a wise teacher. Many of us view him as a powerful Shaman (not unreasonable when you consider the vision quest, healing, etc. etc.).

 

Personally, I wouldn't follow any teachers. One of my favourite comments is: "a teacher is nothing without a student, but a student doesn't need a teacher". I choose to learn from a variety of places. I don't dismiss anything because it comes from a source I don't wholly agree with, and I don't accept everything on face value from a source which I think is generally good.

 

BB

Peter

 

---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03

[Guest guest]

Amylia

 

You ask about our rituals. We hold rituals to honour nature/Earth energies/gods and goddesses, depending on our indiviudal beliefs and to enjoy our the company of our friends and surroundings. The energies of the circle are used for healing - for healing people who have asked for healing, for our families and friends who need help and for the Earth.

 

I am against organised religion because I do not feel the need to ask for what I want through another person. My belief is that organised religions strip people of their own spiritual power. My belief is that organised religions are based on fear more than love and healing. These are my beliefs and I do not expect other people to agree with me.

 

 

I cannot remember saying anything bad about another religion in our discussion. However, your comment as follows:-

 

> How could pagans >sacrificing children be justified?

 

is way off the mark, and in no way a mistaken comment. I would expect you are able to construct your questions so that they do not cause offense, or give the wrong impression on a subject, if that is your desire. I agree that ignorance can breed fear but nowhere near as much as off-the shoulder comments about child-sacrifice.

 

Jo

 

 

 

I believe I have been terribly misinterpreted. --The few pagans I have come into contact with, usually only share their past bad experiences with some organized religions. The conversations never got so deep as to me asking what the history of their beliefs were, or what rituals they performed. I did take a psychology class once where we studied archetypes. I remember one called, "the orphan." There's many others, but it's been awhile. I also visited a bookstore and noticed that many of the archetypes were also the same names of tarot cards. I looked at books about goddesses, too. I hold different beliefs, but was grateful for being exposed to another set of beliefs.

 

Still being curious, especially wanting to know why so many pagans seem anti-organized religion, I explored pagan websites.-Not to find something evil, but to find answers to my questions. After finding this group, I thought I finally had a chance to get some real answers. I brought up human sacrifices only because it's what I've read about. ---Remember when I asked all those questions about heavy metal? Well, as a child, I was told metal was bad to listen to. But I was secretly attracted to metal by junior high. I wanted to know why it was so forbidden. I still have questions about it. That's why I asked about the difference between speed, death, and black metal; and how is metal related to classical music. This was my initial attempt to really understand a genre of music that I had limited access to.

I was trying to do the same thing with paganism. I only wanted to say what I had read about pagans, to see if anything could be dispelled. I am sorry it came out wrong. I am not anti-pagan, simply non-pagan.

At the same time, I find it rather odd, that rude remarks about organized religion are constantly allowed, but when I make comments about paganism, it's an atrocity. About those Christians, after Jesus died, does anyone remember how many of them were killed in arenas because they were different? Lions mauled and devoured their bodies, while men, women, and children watched and cheered the lions on. It was like a form of entertainment. Other Christians, who were trying to be like Jesus, "the light of the world," were mocked by having their bodies dipped in wax, and lit on fire. Even today, in China and I believe Sudan, as well as other countries, Christians have to have underground churches because their religion is illegal. They are persecuted-beaten, tortured, and even killed for being different. All groups of people have been persecuted over centuries and centuries. Instead of comparing body counts, (which group has had the most slayings), or focusing on who's being persecuted right now, that should be our exact reason for asking questions, and getting educated. Because ignorance breeds fear, which grows up to be hate, and hate only destroys.

My feelings were truly hurt, especially when my profession as a teacher was subjected to scrutiny. I do not think it fair to be judged so harshly based-off of one isolated incident. I am not a perfect person. I am a mere vegan, who asks many questions in an attempt to gain knowledge.

I was over-joyed to find this vegan community-so much so, that I have actually saved dozens of emails to my flopy disk. Unfortunately, it would appear that perhaps I do not have the same beliefs as many other vegans here. And diversity among us is not being celebrated enough. Should I kindly be asked to leave, I will do so-as I do not want to be where I am not wanted. However, booting me out would be closing the door on the opportunity to destroy some possible misconceptions I have about pagans. That is all I have to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*This message was brought to you by: Amy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*

To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Simon

 

I think you are right in that a lot of Pagans do accept the teachings of Jesus as being sensible, even though they do not accept him as a god.

 

Jo

 

-

simonpjones

Friday, May 16, 2003 12:21 PM

Re: (unknown)

 

 

 

-

Amylia F

Friday, May 16, 2003 8:05 AM

(unknown)

 

If I had to follow a single teacher ie Jesus or a mythical pagan god..I would choose Jesus because his teachings speak wonders..such good sense on how we should be treating each-other..I would be foolish to ignore...also I think that a lot of Pagans today will have taken on a quality which will have originate from Jesus without knowing it...as it would be hard for anyone who is seeking the good in life to ignore.

 

Simon

 

 

 

I believe I have been terribly misinterpreted. --The few pagans I have come into contact with, usually only share their past bad experiences with some organized religions. The conversations never got so deep as to me asking what the history of their beliefs were, or what rituals they performed. I did take a psychology class once where we studied archetypes. I remember one called, "the orphan." There's many others, but it's been awhile. I also visited a bookstore and noticed that many of the archetypes were also the same names of tarot cards. I looked at books about goddesses, too. I hold different beliefs, but was grateful for being exposed to another set of beliefs.

Still being curious, especially wanting to know why so many pagans seem anti-organized religion, I explored pagan websites.-Not to find something evil, but to find answers to my questions. After finding this group, I thought I finally had a chance to get some real answers. I brought up human sacrifices only because it's what I've read about. ---Remember when I asked all those questions about heavy metal? Well, as a child, I was told metal was bad to listen to. But I was secretly attracted to metal by junior high. I wanted to know why it was so forbidden. I still have questions about it. That's why I asked about the difference between speed, death, and black metal; and how is metal related to classical music. This was my initial attempt to really understand a genre of music that I had limited access to.

I was trying to do the same thing with paganism. I only wanted to say what I had read about pagans, to see if anything could be dispelled. I am sorry it came out wrong. I am not anti-pagan, simply non-pagan.

At the same time, I find it rather odd, that rude remarks about organized religion are constantly allowed, but when I make comments about paganism, it's an atrocity. About those Christians, after Jesus died, does anyone remember how many of them were killed in arenas because they were different? Lions mauled and devoured their bodies, while men, women, and children watched and cheered the lions on. It was like a form of entertainment. Other Christians, who were trying to be like Jesus, "the light of the world," were mocked by having their bodies dipped in wax, and lit on fire. Even today, in China and I believe Sudan, as well as other countries, Christians have to have underground churches because their religion is illegal. They are persecuted-beaten, tortured, and even killed for being different. All groups of people have been persecuted over centuries and centuries. Instead of! comparing body counts, (which group has had the most slayings), or focusing on who's being persecuted right now, that should be our exact reason for asking questions, and getting educated. Because ignorance breeds fear, which grows up to be hate, and hate only destroys.

My feelings were truly hurt, especially when my profession as a teacher was subjected to scrutiny. I do not think it fair to be judged so harshly based-off of one isolated incident. I am not a perfect person. I am a mere vegan, who asks many questions in an attempt to gain knowledge.

I was over-joyed to find this vegan community-so much so, that I have actually saved dozens of emails to my flopy disk. Unfortunately, it would appear that perhaps I do not have the same beliefs as many other vegans here. And diversity among us is not being celebrated enough. Should I kindly be asked to leave, I will do so-as I do not want to be where I am not wanted. However, booting me out would be closing the door on the opportunity to destroy some possible misconceptions I have about pagans. That is all I have to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*This message was brought to you by: Amy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

 

-

Heartwork

Friday, May 16, 2003 6:43 PM

Re: (unknown)

 

Simon

 

I think you are right in that a lot of Pagans do accept the teachings of Jesus as being sensible, even though they do not accept him as a god.

 

 

Jo

At the end of the day..if people are not harming animals and each other..that must be the important thing..

 

From what I've read in Bibles Jesus isn't quoted as saying he was a god, it says he prayed to God and is quoted as believing he was sent by God to show the way etc...

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

 

-

simonpjones

Friday, May 16, 2003 12:21 PM

Re: (unknown)

 

 

 

-

Amylia F

Friday, May 16, 2003 8:05 AM

(unknown)

 

If I had to follow a single teacher ie Jesus or a mythical pagan god..I would choose Jesus because his teachings speak wonders..such good sense on how we should be treating each-other..I would be foolish to ignore...also I think that a lot of Pagans today will have taken on a quality which will have originate from Jesus without knowing it...as it would be hard for anyone who is seeking the good in life to ignore.

 

Simon

 

 

 

I believe I have been terribly misinterpreted. --The few pagans I have come into contact with, usually only share their past bad experiences with some organized religions. The conversations never got so deep as to me asking what the history of their beliefs were, or what rituals they performed. I did take a psychology class once where we studied archetypes. I remember one called, "the orphan." There's many others, but it's been awhile. I also visited a bookstore and noticed that many of the archetypes were also the same names of tarot cards. I looked at books about goddesses, too. I hold different beliefs, but was grateful for being exposed to another set of beliefs.

Still being curious, especially wanting to know why so many pagans seem anti-organized religion, I explored pagan websites.-Not to find something evil, but to find answers to my questions. After finding this group, I thought I finally had a chance to get some real answers. I brought up human sacrifices only because it's what I've read about. ---Remember when I asked all those questions about heavy metal? Well, as a child, I was told metal was bad to listen to. But I was secretly attracted to metal by junior high. I wanted to know why it was so forbidden. I still have questions about it. That's why I asked about the difference between speed, death, and black metal; and how is metal related to classical music. This was my initial attempt to really understand a genre of music that I had limited access to.

I was trying to do the same thing with paganism. I only wanted to say what I had read about pagans, to see if anything could be dispelled. I am sorry it came out wrong. I am not anti-pagan, simply non-pagan.

At the same time, I find it rather odd, that rude remarks about organized religion are constantly allowed, but when I make comments about paganism, it's an atrocity. About those Christians, after Jesus died, does anyone remember how many of them were killed in arenas because they were different? Lions mauled and devoured their bodies, while men, women, and children watched and cheered the lions on. It was like a form of entertainment. Other Christians, who were trying to be like Jesus, "the light of the world," were mocked by having their bodies dipped in wax, and lit on fire. Even today, in China and I believe Sudan, as well as other countries, Christians have to have underground churches because their religion is illegal. They are persecuted-beaten, tortured, and even killed for being different. All groups of people have been persecuted over centuries and centuries. Instead of! comparing body counts, (which group has had the most slayings), or focusing on who's being persecuted right now, that should be our exact reason for asking questions, and getting educated. Because ignorance breeds fear, which grows up to be hate, and hate only destroys.

My feelings were truly hurt, especially when my profession as a teacher was subjected to scrutiny. I do not think it fair to be judged so harshly based-off of one isolated incident. I am not a perfect person. I am a mere vegan, who asks many questions in an attempt to gain knowledge.

I was over-joyed to find this vegan community-so much so, that I have actually saved dozens of emails to my flopy disk. Unfortunately, it would appear that perhaps I do not have the same beliefs as many other vegans here. And diversity among us is not being celebrated enough. Should I kindly be asked to leave, I will do so-as I do not want to be where I am not wanted. However, booting me out would be closing the door on the opportunity to destroy some possible misconceptions I have about pagans. That is all I have to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*This message was brought to you by: Amy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Well put Peter!

 

I remember the first time I told someone I was a vegan and their

response basically was " How can you live " ? And then I took the time

to educate their ignorance on the subject. Now the word ignorance is

not used here as an insult, but rather to explain that the people who

ask me these questions, do not have enough knowledge on the subject.

 

Kinda like this thread. There are many assumptions going on, and not

enough questions. If you really want to know, all you have to do is

ask.

 

I am sure at one point or another, all of us as vegans have gone

through this. And I am doubly sure it will continue on. But as people

become more knowledgeable, they tend to fear the unknown less. Movies

depict pagans and wiccans as evil. Yet as I know that Frankestein

shall not walk into me bedroom, I also know that may spiritual

practices shall never hurt another.

 

Does this mean all pagans and wiccans are pure, no it does not. Just

as many Christian have slaughtered and many Catholics have molested

and so on. Mind you I use to belong to both faiths and I meself know

why I have turned away from them. if you wish to know, ask. But

please do not judge. As a vegan I dislike it, why would I appreciate

being called a baby killer as well?

 

This is an amazing group Amy with some good people. I do not see eye

to eye with some here and others I feel connected. But I enjoy the

entire group as a whole. We are allowed to ask anything, post a lot

and place our views on the table. The only time I have ever seen

anyone asked to cool it is when the insults fly. You can post that

your beliefs known to you were such and such, tis only when an

accusation or insult is flung that the hammers come down. So far I

have seen Peter to only be open and understanding to these posts. As

well as others here. He is in my eyes in no way coming at you, simply

stating that he finds it an insult to be called a baby killer. I find

it amazing that an educator would not get the facts before the

judgment. I wish your post was stated more as a question than as what

you know. Because my biggest upset in this is you are in charge of

molding young minds. And if the educator preaches their beliefs as

opposed to the facts, I fear the result that shall bring.

 

This post is in no way meant to attack or dishearten you. I do hope

you'll stay and learn and teach as well.

 

Just me own thoughts from me own world,

 

Peace & Light,

 

nikki

 

, " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote:

> Hi Amylia

>

> > At the same time, I find it rather odd, that rude remarks about

organized religion are constantly allowed, but when I make

> > comments about paganism, it's an atrocity.

>

> No rude remarks about other peoples beliefs are allowed - others

have had " slapped wrists " on the very rare ocassion that Christians

or Muslims have been unfairly criticised - and if people go too far

in criticising anyone's beliefs, they will end up on moderation (and

maybe banned). However, I don't recall anyone asking Christians if

they sacrifice babies!

>

> > My feelings were truly hurt, especially when my profession as a

teacher was subjected to scrutiny. I do not think it fair to be

> > judged so harshly based-off of one isolated incident. I am not a

perfect person. I am a mere vegan, who asks many

> > questions in an attempt to gain knowledge.

>

> Now come on - you basically asked if I sacrificed children. How

would you react if someone asked you that question? I don't wish to

upset you further, but shouldn't teachers be more aware than the rest

of us how their questions might have an effect on people? I mean -

have you ever asked any of your students whether they sacrifice

children? If not, why not? If so, how did they respond.

>

> > I was over-joyed to find this vegan community-so much so, that I

have actually saved dozens of emails to my flopy disk.

> > Unfortunately, it would appear that perhaps I do not have the

same beliefs as many other vegans here. And diversity among

> > us is not being celebrated enough. Should I kindly be asked to

leave, I will do so-as I do not want to be where I am not

> > wanted. However, booting me out would be closing the door on the

opportunity to destroy some possible misconceptions I

> > have about pagans.

>

> I would only " boot " anyone out under extreme circumstances, and

usually after that person had been put on moderation and refused to

desist with whatever it was they were doing.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03

[Guest guest]

Hi Carly

 

Welcome to the list. We seem to be a little quiet the last two days, but it varies - sometimes there are loads of emails to wade through. I suspect some people are on holiday at present.

 

Nice to have you aboard - ask any questions you like - there are some very helpful people here.

 

Jo

 

-

carly amato

Tuesday, June 03, 2003 10:38 PM

(unknown)

 

 

 

HI Guys im new to the group My name is Carly and I have been Vegatarian for nearly 2 years (i am 16) and im just turning Vegan, so i joined the group cos i thought maybe u guys cud help me out. Hope to chat 2 u soon luv carlyxx

 

 

 

(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

«´¨`·.¸¸.*~()°×Mï$§ R£d 6o×°()~*.¸¸.·´¨`»

 

 

 

 

Enjoy a faster internet experience when you sign up for a FREE BT Broadband connection!

To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

welcome carly

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/3/03 3:48:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Heartwork writes:

 

Welcome to the list. We seem to be a little quiet the last two days, but it varies - sometimes there are loads of emails to wade through. I suspect some people are on holiday at present.

 

 

things always go in cycles....

[Guest guest]

Hi Carly

 

> HI Guys im new to the group My name is Carly and I have been Vegatarian for nearly 2 years (i am 16) and im just turning

> Vegan, so i joined the group cos i thought maybe u guys cud help me out. Hope to chat 2 u soon luv carlyxx

 

Welcome to vegan chat :-)

 

We've been a bit quiet over the last couple of days, which is unusual! Hope you enjoy the conversation - feel free to join in whenever you want! :-)

 

BB

Peter

 

---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release 01/06/03

[Guest guest]

Hi Fraggle

 

> things always go in cycles....

 

Only environmentally friendly things... others go in cars, or use public transport. (Sorry)! :-)

 

BB

Peter

 

---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release 01/06/03

[Guest guest]

fraggle goes in cycles!

 

er.... on cycles

 

ok, ok a cycle!

 

nikki

 

 

, " Peter " <metalscarab@o...> wrote:

> Hi Fraggle

>

> > things always go in cycles....

>

> Only environmentally friendly things... others go in cars, or use

public transport. (Sorry)! :-)

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.487 / Virus Database: 286 - Release 01/06/03