Guruvani Posted November 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Gee I could have sworn it was you two who were mocking others about being "dream-vadis" and "sleeper-vadis" ad nauseum. Must have been a bad dream on my part. But, we don't believe that liberated souls in Goloka are dreaming that they are in the material world. Only an idiot with no shastric knowledge would ever believe such an asinine proposal. We are in the material world dreaming. Not in Goloka dreaming. There is no dreaming in Goloka. Dreaming happens in dreamland - the material world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 We are in the material world dreaming. Not in Goloka dreaming. There is no dreaming in Goloka. Dreaming happens in dreamland - the material world. Theist, I think the above statement makes things quite clear. Guruvani has essentially written the same thing (as above) a considerable number of times. I, in my own way have made similar points in my own style, on many, many posts; Yet you continue keep making the same false assumptions and accusations about what is our position. Frankly, I don't understand why you are doing this. Are you sure that you are carefully reading these posts? The Gaudiya conclusion that "no one falls from Vaikuntha" or dreaming that they are from a position in Goloka does not (once and for all) preclude the concept that we conditioned souls are essentially dreaming that we are a material body and mind in the realm of consciousness. It seems that you have made this false accusation the foundation of your opposition (or at least closet opposition) to this concept expressed by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Tattva Viveka 2.4 It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Well clearly you do not understand the opposing position. The soul coming into the material world does not mean that the soul has to travel some distance measureable in earthly miles or something to arrive here. The soul travels by projection of consciousness. Exactly like in a dream the form is in one place while the consciousness of the dreamer has so many experiences seemingly distant from the form. Material time and space are products of the material world. So how does the soul travel distance to reach the material world. Trying to understand the specifics of the transcendental world by intellect is impossible. Anyway I am perfectly fine with people not agreeing on these points. Whatever our origin we are now in a dreaming condition. I am simply requesting that the childish mocking of your opponents stop. That is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Avinash So, let us consider the possibility that we are still in spiritual world but dreaming ourselves to be in material world. Those who are in Golok at present are not dreaming but we are dreaming. Suppose those residents look at what you are doing in 2007. What do they see? They see that you are dreaming. Of course, they are not dreaming. But they see you dreaming. They see that you are factually in spiritual world but you are dreaming of being in material world. If we are factually not in material world and we are only dreaming to be in material world, then is it possible that material world does not even exist in fact? Its existence is merely a dream? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Srila Prabhupada clearly explains here how the non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) that are sub-consciously separate from ones marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body, are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. This secondary (conditioned) extension of the marginal living entities is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted self centred thoughts and awareness manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires Srila Prabhupada - 'There is possibility (falling from Vaikuntha), if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down'. Bhag.-Gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974) Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up Krishna.” T Srila Prabhupada therefore clearly tells us that we have never been always conditioned because factually our svarupa body is always in Goloka, only our 'dreaming' consciousness comes to the mahat-tattva from Vaikuntha, although as complicated as it may be to understand, our nitya-baddha conscious condition is only temporarily exists. In this way just as the sun dissipates the darkness, when one is fully established as their nitya-siddha authentic eternal body, the darkness or the nitya-baddha counterfeit consciousness, will simply not exist. This is because our non-Krishna conscious desires or the nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity can never exist in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Interesting 'viewpoint' but when thiest is in Goloka, is he really going to care what material body he was in 2007? After all, he has had billions of them. Isn't the eternal 'present' beyond the concept of past, present and future in the material world? Which means thiests' Krishna Consciousness will have no interest in what he was in the past in the material world, nor the future in the material world because Thiests is too absorbed in his devotional service in his 'present' to Krishna. Such loving service, thinking of the object of ones love and service, does not allow him the memory of past, present and future of the material world and its bye product of decay, forgettfulness, changing bodies, to exist. Why would he want to remember 'that which is not' (Maya)? However if Thiests looks up into the Spiritual Sky, he will see a dark cloud but that cloud (mahat-tattva) will only remind him possibly (we do not know Thiests eternal realationship with Krishna) simply of Krishna's complextion (the color of a monsoon cloud) Srila Prabhupada tells us that our original position is nothing less than being a fully developed perpetually nitya-siddha devotee eternally serving Krishna as our eternal self (svarupa) in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness that is restricted by the past, present and future within the mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti. Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Avinash So, you are saying that we are in Golok. We feel we are on Earth because we dream of being on Earth. What about those living in Vaikunth? Are they really in Vaikunth or are they in Golok and dreaming of being in Vaikunth? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Avinash, the ISKCON movement do not except the impersonal maya-vardi nonsense delusions of Guruvani, Begger and buddies. Here is the offical ISKCON BBT understanding on this subject and that we ALL came from Goloka http://www.jswami.info/jiva Since the early 1970s, Jayadvaita Swami has served as an editor or assistant editor with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, working on nearly all the books which his guru, Srila Prabhupada, published throughout his lifetime<SUP>[1]</SUP>. "Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens”. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.107 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Yes the material world does not exist in fact. It only appears to exist that is why it is called maya. Now it is a real dream. Someone in the spiritual world would not see another dreamong because no one is dreaming there. This is the apparent paradox that everyone gets hung up on. No one is dreaming there because there is no past or future and when the soul wakes up he ws never asleep. This is where the material idea of dreaming breaks down. No matter how many times you tell Guruvani this, his little brain cannot understand No one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka!! Please understand that once and for all. It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has reverts, one realizes themself as their endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body and ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know and experience it in the mahat-tattva, that exists in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine (our svarupa) with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted November 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Here is the offical ISKCON BBT understanding on this subject and that we ALL came from Goloka http://www.jswami.info/jiva Jayadvaita Swami is a career guru in ISKCON who supports the GBC party line to keep his position as a career guru in ISKCON secure. You can't trust these career ISKCON gurus. They all have a good reason for not telling the truth or standing up for what is right. They are sold out to the GBC committee and don't want to do anything to jeapardize their cushy position as a career ISKCON guru who couldn't possibly survive on their own merits outside of ISKCON. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 If you have a small organ? Or a bigger one? Case closed! .................................................................................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted November 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 No matter how many times you tell Guruvani this, his little brain cannot understand No one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka!! Please understand that once and for all. It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Lord Caitanya taught Srila Rupa Goswami that the "svarupa" of the jiva is a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139 keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāḿśa kari tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera 'svarūpa' vicāri SYNONYMS keśa-agra — from the tip of a hair; śata-eka — one hundred; bhāga — divisions; punaḥ — again; śata-aḿśa — one hundred divisions; kari — making; tāra sama — equal to that; sūkṣma — very fine; jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the actual form; vicāri — I consider. TRANSLATION "The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Well clearly you do not understand the opposing position. The soul coming into the material world does not mean that the soul has to travel some distance measureable in earthly miles or something to arrive here. The soul travels by projection of consciousness. Exactly like in a dream the form is in one place while the consciousness of the dreamer has so many experiences seemingly distant from the form. ...you continue keep making the same false assumptions and accusations about what is our position. Frankly, I don't understand why you are doing this. Are you sure that you are carefully reading these posts? The Gaudiya conclusion that "no one falls from Vaikuntha" or dreaming that they are from a position in Goloka does not (once and for all) preclude the concept that we conditioned souls are essentially dreaming that we are a material body and mind in the realm of consciousness. Are you sure that you are carefully reading these posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 "Subjective Evolution of Consciousness", Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaj, Dr. T. D. Singh (Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami, GBC, Iskcon Acarya): When scientists speak of evolution they mean that life has evolved from matter. I have heard you speak of evolution with quite a different concept. You say that everything is evolving from consciousness. Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, consciousness comes first and then matter. The basis of all things material is consciousness, which is spiritual. Consciousness can contact consciousness directly. When consciousness comes into the stage of matter, material conception, we experience a kind of vague consciousness; first there is hazy consciousness and then material consciousness. But everything has its spiritual side. And as eternal souls, our direct connection is really only with the conscious aspect of existence. For example, the Earth is conceived of as a woman. According to the Vedas, the presiding deity of the Earth is a woman. And the sun is conceived of as a devata, a male god. The soul, coming into material consciousness, must come through some hazy reflection of consciousnes, cidabhasa. Only then can the soul experience material consciousness. Before pure consciousness evolves to material consciousness, it will pass through a hazy stage of consciousness or cidabhasa. So in the background of every material thing, there is a spiritual conception. This cannot but be true. Dr. T. D. Singh: What is cidabhasa? Sridhara Maharaja: Something like mind. Suppose consciousness comes to feel matter. When consciousness is coming to the material world to know the material world, it has to first pass through material consciousness, and then it can feel what is matter. According to Darwins Theory, matter gradually produces consciousness, but before producing consciousness it must produce some hazy consciousness, then mind, and then the soul. But in reality, it is just the opposite. So subjective evolution parallels objective or material evolution. But in the evolution of consciousness, the supersubject is first, then the individual soul or jiva-subject is next. Then, from the subjective consciousness of the jivas, matter is produced. But consciousness must penetrate hazy consciousness to perceive matter. Consciousness cannot jump at once into the conception of matter; it must pass through a process to come to material consciousness. From the marginal position, from the verge of the higher eternal potency, evolution and dissolution of this material world begins. This takes place only on the outskirts of svarupa-sakti, which is the system responsible for the evolution of the spiritual plane, and is an eternally evolving dynamic whole. It is not that nondifferentiation is the origin of differentiation. An eternally differentiated substance exists. That plane is filled with lila, dynamic pastimes. If a static thing can be conceived of as eternal, then why can't a dynamic thing be conceived of as eternal? That plane of svarupa-sakti is fully evolved within. It is eternal. Evolution and dissolution concern only the degradation of the subtle spirit to the gross material platform and his evolution towards perfection. Here there is evolution and dissolution, but these things do not exist in the eternal abode of svarupa-sakti. Dr. T. D. Singh: Objective evolution is what modern science calls Darwinian evolution, but how does subjective evolution unfold in Krsna conscious science? Sridhara Maharaja: You have to take the example of hypnotism. Through a form of mystic "hypnotism," the supersubject controls the subject to see a particular thing, and he is bound to see that. One may think that as we see a stone, the stone compels us to see it as stone, but it is just the opposite: we are compelled to see it as stone being under the influence of the supersubject who displays everything as he likes. The objective world is fully controlled by the subjective. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita, where Krsna says pasya me yogam aisvaryam: "If I say, 'Behold my mystic power,' you are bound to see it. You have no other choice." The soul, when going to experience any material conception, will have to pass through a medium which influences his consciousness to see things as material. What is concrete matter is unknown. It is a mere effect of consciousness. As everything material must have some conscious origin, or origin in personal consciousness, there must be a personal conception of the sun, the moon, the Earth, and all the planets. Before we reach the conception of a shadow or other object, the soul has to pass through a conscious stage. That stage has some spiritual existence as a person. Therefore the Bhagavatam refers to the sun, the moon, and the planet Rahu, as persons. Student: I have heard it said that according to Vedic ontology, the soul is marginal. Do the jiva souls in the marginal or tatastha position have knowledge that there is an upper and a lower world, that there is suffering in the material world and divine service in the spiritual world? Sridhara Maharaja: A jiva soul has adaptability of both sides; marginal means "endowed with adaptability towards both the spiritual and material worlds without participation or any experience of either." The marginal soul (tatastha) has only seed adaptability towards both. He is situated in the margin between the spiritual and material worlds, and the margin strictly means that one is in a position to analyze adaptability. He can go towards the spiritual world and he can come towards the material world. The possibility of either is there in potentiality, but he is left to exercise his freedom. Because the soul is a conscious unit, he has free will. Freedom is inseparable from consciousness. A conscious unit and freedom are one and the same. Conscious atom means endowed with freedom. Without freedom, it is matter. Student: The soul has freedom, but does it have knowledge of the different aspects of reality? Sridhara Maharaja: Because the soul is very small, his freedom is also imperfect; a soul in the marginal position is very vulnerable. Freedom does not mean absolute freedom. Because the soul's existence is small, his freedom is defective-there is the possibility of committing a mistake. Freedom of the minute soul does not mean perfect freedom. Complete freedom would be perfect reality, but the minute soul is endowed with the smallest atomic freedom. This is the position of the atoms of consciousness, and this is why they are vulnerable. They may judge properly or improperly; that is the position of those who are situated in the marginal position. If the soul were not endowed with the freedom to determine his position, we would have to blame God for our suffering. But we cannot blame God. The starting point of the soul's suffering is within himself. The first cause of our entanglement with material nature was our mixing with maya in a play of curiosity. But as much as we make friends with her, so much she comes to devour us. ln this way we are in the clutches of maya. But in the beginning our involvement was very slight, like one experimenting with drugs. The beginning of our play with maya involved the voluntary misuse of our free will, and that has led us to this present stage where maya has devoured us. Maya means our attraction for intoxication: where there is love of exploitation, there is maya. And truth is the opposite of exploitation. Truth is found in dedicating everything for the center, for Krsna. Student: If in the marginal position (tatastha) the soul has exposure to both reality and illusion, why doesn't he have enough discrimination to come to the right path? Sridhara Maharaja: He has no real depth of discrimination; only a little discrimination. But it is there. However small it may be, it is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Our Affectionate Guardians Chapter Four (Excerpt): Prabhupada's Instructions Sripad Visnu Maharaja That it was actually the instruction of Srila Prabhupada that we should approach Srila Sridhara Maharaja for spiritual instruction is corroborated by taped statements of Jayapataka Maharaja, Satsvarupa Maharaja, Bhakti Caru Swami, Tamala Krsna Maharaja, and many other GBCs [some of whom later changed their minds regarding the validity of their previous statements], as well as by Tripurari Maharaja who was personally massaging Srila Prabhupada's lotus feet in the midst of several senior devotees when he heard this instruction from Srila Prabhupada. The instruction came in response to a question from Tamala Krsna Maharaja as to whom we could approach for advice after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance. Bhakti Caru Swami related to Srila Sridhara Maharaja on August 19, 1980: Prabhupada gave us an instruction that if we have any difficulty then we should come to you, but they are deliberately neglecting that instruction of Srila Prabhupada. In addition, official GBC recognition of this instruction of Srila Prabhupada was given in the GBC's March 1981 publication, "The Descending Process of Selecting a Spiritual Master." Giriraja Maharaja, in a letter of September 16, 1978 addressed to all GBC members, wrote: According to Sridhara Swami, who Srila Prabhupada said we should consult about philosophy and practical points, there is relative and absolute consideration and we must give Sridhara Swami the highest regard. At one time, Srila Prabhupada said that apart from himself only Sridhara Swami was qualified to write the Bhagavatam purports. When we approached Srila Prabhupada before his departure about our writing books after his disappearance, Srila Prabhupada replied, "You can write when you are realized, but now none of you are realized." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevabhakta Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Try this one on for size Prabhus. SB 2.3.12 TRANSLATION Transcendental knowledge in relation with the Supreme Lord Hari is knowledge resulting in the complete suspension of the waves and whirlpools of the material modes. Such knowledge is self-satisfying due to its being free from material attachment, and being transcendental it is approved by authorities. Who could fail to be attracted? PURPORT According to Bhagavad-gita (10.9) the characteristics of pure devotees are wonderful. The complete functional activities of a pure devotee are always engaged in the service of the Lord, and thus the pure devotees exchange feelings of ecstasy between themselves and relish transcendental bliss. This transcendental bliss is experienced even in the stage of devotional practice (sadhana-avastha), if properly undertaken under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master. And in the mature stage the developed transcendental feeling culminates in realization of the particular relationship with the Lord by which a living entity is originally constituted (up to the relationship of conjugal love with the Lord, which is estimated to be the highest transcendental bliss). So according to Srila Prabhupada, the rasa we may be headed for could be the highest. So that would mean that transcendentally some are already engaged in Madhurya Lila, but forget and become sadhaks. Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Well clearly you do not understand the opposing position. The soul coming into the material world does not mean that the soul has to travel some distance measureable in earthly miles or something to arrive here. The soul travels by projection of consciousness. Exactly like in a dream the form is in one place while the consciousness of the dreamer has so many experiences seemingly distant from the form. Material time and space are products of the material world. So how does the soul travel distance to reach the material world. Trying to understand the specifics of the transcendental world by intellect is impossible. Anyway I am perfectly fine with people not agreeing on these points. Whatever our origin we are now in a dreaming condition. I am simply requesting that the childish mocking of your opponents stop. That is all. IOW's I am out of the loop when it comes to speculating on origins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted November 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Student: If in the marginal position (tatastha) the soul has exposure to both reality and illusion, why doesn't he have enough discrimination to come to the right path? Sridhara Maharaja: He has no real depth of discrimination; only a little discrimination. But it is there. However small it may be, it is there. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> There is some reference in the Jaiva Dharma where Babaji explains that the jivas do not have sufficient amount of samvit and hladini shakti in their souls to go from the marginal Viraja plane to Vaikuntha. The jivas must attain sufficient blessing of samvit and hladini shakti in order to have eligibility to enter Vaikuntha. As the jivas as manifested in the Viraja by Lord Vishnu they do not have sufficient development of samvit and hladini shakti. The Jaiva Dharma says they are incomplete entities at the marginal stage of existence. Srila Prabhupada explains something similar in this purport: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 6.160 purport, When the potencies of spiritual pleasure and knowledge are both bestowed upon the conditioned souls, the conditioned souls can escape the clutches of the external potency, māyā, which acts as a cover obscuring one's spiritual identity. This says the same thing. The jiva must be blessed with samvit and hladini shakti to have proper eligibility for entering Goloka or Vaikuntha. As tatastha shakti the jiva does not have that in sufficient quantity. That only comes when the seed of devotion is planted in the heart by the spiritual master and nourished by hearing and chanting etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Lord Caitanya taught Srila Rupa Goswami that the "svarupa" of the jiva is a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu describes below our secondary 'dreaming' nitya-baddha consciousness, which has all the essence of the jivatma and is a factual attribute of ones marginal identity. This description of the 'dreaming aspect of our marginal identity', that has been controversial for so long, is not the some 'mental' state illusionary dreams that we all have in our material bodily sub-consciousness. No, it is not like that interpretation of the word dream. The nitya-baddha 'dreaming' conscious state is an authentic and real condition that ALL living entities can activate. Srila Prabhuapada calls those non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, - dreams. Srila Prabhupada - "Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”. Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b. We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka Srila Prabhupada also uses the analogy of the cloud covering the sun, its not that the sun is not there, but rather is that we cannot see the sun similarly, the nitya-baddha consciousness is like the cloud and the only when that cloud (nitya-baddha consciousness) dissipates, can we see the sun or our true perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily identity. The problem with the dream analogy is many foolishly relate this’ dream' state with the biological body of nine gates, hence we are always reading the impersonal brahmajyoti origin believers, unintelligently call those who understand aw ALL come down from Goloka as dream-avadis or sleep-avadis. The word vardi actually means impersonalism and in point of fact describes their own ‘impersonal’ beliefs because they cannot understand we have ALL come down from Goloka.. The marginal living entity therefore can choose to use their 'marginal' freewill and venture their non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha characteristic of their marginal identity to the mahat-tattva 'dreaming' creation of Maha-Vishnu. Because the mahat-tattva is real, even though temporary due to its fading scenery, the nitya-baddha consciousness is a existent living part and parcel of the marginal potency that is a further secondary feature of the individual living entity with full independence that is a quality of the superior energy (the life force) and is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness within the mahat-tattva cloud. The Vishnu-tattvas and the jiva-tattvas are the individual entities that make up the superior energy. Lord Krishna is the source and maintainer of all His Vishnu-tattva expansions as well as His jiva-tattva servant. The marginal living entities or jiva tattvas have their own independence and individuality and are called the marginal living entities or jiva tatastha's. Each living entity has their ceaseless nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity and also has the ability, due to the freedom to choose, to stimulate their non-Krishna conscious desire, thoughts and imaginings. This ‘lower self or secondary consciousness’ is known as ones nitya-baddha responsiveness or the derived state that all jiva-soul possess and can activate if they no longer want to stay with Krishna in Goloka.. In this way this attribute within the mahat-tattva or material creation and the impersonal Brahmajyoti, ones jiva-soul identity is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair IN OUR dimension of awareness within the maha-tattva, AND can also move on to a dreamless dormant state within the impersonal trait of the Brahmajyoti that can only also exist outside the personal active realm of Goloka and Vaikuntha. The Impersonal feature of Brahman or the Brahmajyoti cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in an inactive dormant dreamless state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Quote by Guruvani <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139 keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāḿśa kari tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera 'svarūpa' vicāri SYNONYMS keśa-agra — from the tip of a hair; śata-eka — one hundred; bhāga — divisions; punaḥ — again; śata-aḿśa — one hundred divisions; kari — making; tāra sama — equal to that; sūkṣma — very fine; jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the actual form; vicāri — I consider. TRANSLATION "The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Srila Prabhupada “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada's Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve In the Sri Caitanya Caritamrta the nitya-baddha condition of the marginal living entity is clearly described in the following quotes - " Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "My dear Rupa, please listen to Me. It is not possible to describe devotional service completely; therefore I am just trying to give you a synopsis of the symptoms of devotional service" Sri Caitanya Caritamr?ta Madhya 19.137 Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then explains the jiva’s fall down and how one is covered within the mahat-tattva (material creation) only.'Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, ‘the ocean of the transcendental mellows of devotional service is so big that no one can estimate its length and breadth. However, just to help you taste it, I am describing but one drop. In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species, and all are wandering within this universe. The length and breadth of the living entity is described as <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comone ten</st1:time>-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kan?a, particles of spirit, not matter. If we divide the tip of a hair into one hundred parts and then take one part and divide this into another one hundred parts, that ten-thousandth part is the dimension of the living entity. This is the verdict of the chief Vedic mantras. [Lord Kr?s?n?a says:] 'Among minute particles, I am the living entity. "Sri Caitanya Caritamr?ta Madhya 19.138- 142 Srila Prabhupada - “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation.....<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> ...“All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> in 1972 All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Jayadvaita Swami is a career guru in ISKCON who supports the GBC party line to keep his position as a career guru in ISKCON secure. You can't trust these career ISKCON gurus. They all have a good reason for not telling the truth or standing up for what is right. They are sold out to the GBC committee and don't want to do anything to jeapardize their cushy position as a career ISKCON guru who couldn't possibly survive on their own merits outside of ISKCON. What a load of nonsense towards a great devotee of Krishna and dear disciple of Srila Prabhupada Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah Here is the offical ISKCON BBT understanding on this subject and that we ALL came from Goloka http://www.jswami.info/jiva </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->BBT and ISKCON is nicely represented by Jayadvaita Swami, the bonafide authority of Srila Prabhupada's books wonderful books, letters, morning walks and lectures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashvatama Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 If you have a small organ? Or a bigger one? Case closed!.................................................................................... "One evening Srila Prabhupada was talking about humility and service. He spoke eloquently about service and putting <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna and His</st1:place>' needs before our own. Then, someone asked, "What do you do with the arrogant? How can you serve the arrogant?" Srila Prabhupada drew himself up and raised his powerful voice: "With the arrogant, you must behave arrogantly!" Everyone was shocked. Then, then Srila Prabhupada went on. To treat the arrogant with humility would be like giving them poison. It would only feed their arrogance." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashvatama Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 That's hogwwash.The material world exists for real and that is where you are right now. It is called illusion only because it is temporary. Otherwise, you are definitely in the material world, it is real and you are thinking that the material energy is for your enjoyment. That is the only maya. Maya means that which is not. The material energy is real. That which is not is that you are not the Lord of all you survey. The material world is real. You are here. Your dream that you are the enjoyer of the senses is the only illusion you have to overcome. The material energy is simply what the spiritual energy becomes when you try to exploit it. It is real. Your ego is not. In the dream or under illusion - same thing Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.22 TRANSLATION Therefore this entire universe, which like a dream is by nature unreal, nevertheless appears real, and thus it covers one's consciousness and assails one with repeated miseries. This universe appears real because it is manifested by the potency of illusion emanating from You, whose unlimited transcendental forms are full of eternal happiness and knowledge. PURPORT As an object of enjoyment or a permanent residence for the conditioned souls, the material universe is certainly illusion, nothing more than a dream. One may give the analogy that the vision of abundant water in a desert is no more than a dream, although real water exists elsewhere. Similarly, the vision of home, happiness and reality within matter is certainly no better than a foolish dream in which repeated miseries appear. In another sense, however, the universe is real. In his commentary on Vedanta-sūtra, Śrīla Madhvācārya has confirmed this by quoting the following statement from the Vedic śruti-mantras: satyaḿ hy evedaḿ viśvam asṛjata. "This universe, created by the Lord, is real." The perfect authority of the Vedas thus certifies this universe to be real; nevertheless, because our knowledge is stolen by illusion (as indicated here by the words asta-dhiṣaṇam), we cannot properly understand this universe or the Supreme Lord who has created it. As the expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa, the universe is real and is meant for being engaged in His service. One who accepts the kingdom of God as home, the Lord Himself as the object of love, and the material universe as paraphernalia for being engaged in the Lord's service dwells within eternal reality wherever he may go within the material and spiritual worlds. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.67 TRANSLATION Sometimes in a dream we see something never experienced or heard of in this life, but all these incidents have been experienced at different times, in different places and in different conditions. PURPORT In the previous verse it was explained that in dreams we see that which was experienced during the day. But why is it that we sometimes in our dreams see what we have never heard of or seen at any time during this life? Here it is stated that even though such events may not be experienced in this life, they were experienced in previous lives. According to time and circumstance, they combine so that in dreams we see something wonderful that we have never experienced. For instance, we may see an ocean on the peak of a mountain. Or we may see that the ocean has dried up. These are simply combinations of different experiences in time and space. Sometimes we may see a golden mountain, and this is due to our having experienced gold and mountains separately. In the dream, under illusion, we combine these separate factors. In this way we are able to see golden mountains, or stars during the day. The conclusion is that these are all mental concoctions, although they have actually been experienced in different circumstances. They have simply combined together in a dream. This fact is further explained in the following verse. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.68 . TRANSLATION The mind of the living entity continues to exist in various gross bodies, and according to one's desires for sense gratification, the mind records different thoughts. In the mind these appear together in different combinations; therefore these images sometimes appear as things never seen or never heard before. PURPORT The activities of the living entity in the body of a dog may be experienced in the mind of a different body; therefore those activities appear never to have been heard or seen. The mind continues, although the body changes. Even in this life-span we can sometimes experience dreams of our childhood. Although such incidents now appear strange, it is to be understood that they are recorded in the mind. Because of this, they become visible in dreams. The transmigration of the soul is caused by the subtle body, which is the storehouse of all kinds of material desires. Unless one is fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, material desires will come and go. That is the nature of the mind — thinking, feeling and willing. As long as the mind is not engaged in meditation on the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, the mind will desire so many material enjoyments. Sensual images are recorded in the mind in chronological order, and they become manifest one after another; therefore the living entity has to accept one body after another. The mind plans material enjoyment, and the gross body serves as the instrument to realize such desires and plans. The mind is the platform onto which all desires come and go. Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura therefore sings: guru-mukha-padma-vākya, cittete kariyā aikya, āra nā kariha mane āśā ** Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura advises everyone to stick to the principle of carrying out the orders of the spiritual master. One should not desire anything else. If the regulative principles ordered by the spiritual master are followed rigidly, the mind will gradually be trained to desire nothing but the service of Kṛṣṇa. Such training is the perfection of life. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.69 TRANSLATION Kṛṣṇa consciousness means constantly associating with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in such a mental state that the devotee can observe the cosmic manifestation exactly as the Supreme Personality of Godhead does. Such observation is not always possible, but it becomes manifest exactly like the dark planet known as Rāhu, which is observed in the presence of the full moon. PURPORT It has been explained in the previous verse that all desires on the mental platform become visible one after another. Sometimes, however, by the supreme will of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the whole stockpile can be visible all at one time. In Brahma-saḿhitā (5.54) it is said, karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām. When a person is fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his stockpile of material desires is minimized. Indeed, the desires no longer fructify in the form of gross bodies. Instead, the stockpile of desires becomes visible on the mental platform by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this connection, the darkness occurring before the full moon, the lunar eclipse, can be explained as being another planet, known as Rāhu. According to Vedic astronomy, the Rāhu planet, which is not visible, is accepted. Sometimes the Rāhu planet is visible in the presence of full moonlight. It then appears that this Rāhu planet exists somewhere near the orbit of the moon. The failure of modern moon excursionists may be due to the Rāhu planet. In other words, those who are supposed to be going to the moon may actually be going to this invisible planet Rāhu. Actually, they are not going to the moon but to the planet Rāhu, and after reaching this planet, they come back. Apart from this discussion, the point is that a living entity has immense and unlimited desires for material enjoyment, and he has to transmigrate from one gross body to another until these desires are exhausted. No living entity is free from the cycle of birth and death unless he takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness; therefore in this verse it is clearly stated (sattvaika-niṣṭhe) that when one is fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in one stroke he is freed of past and future mental desires. Then, by the grace of the Supreme Lord, everything becomes simultaneously manifest within the mind. In this regard, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura cites the example of mother Yaśodā's seeing the whole cosmic manifestation within the mouth of Lord Kṛṣṇa. By the grace of Lord Kṛṣṇa, mother Yaśodā saw all the universes and planets within the mouth of Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, a Kṛṣṇa conscious person can see all his dormant desires at one time and finish all his future transmigrations. This facility is especially given to the devotee to make his path clear for returning home, back to Godhead. Why we see things not experienced in this life is explained herein. That which we see is the future expression of a gross body or is already stocked in our mental stockpile. Because a Kṛṣṇa conscious person does not have to accept a future gross body, his recorded desires are fulfilled in a dream. We therefore sometimes find things in a dream never experienced in our present life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashvatama Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.71 TRANSLATION When the living entity is in deep sleep, when he faints, when there is some great shock on account of severe loss, at the time of death, or when the body temperature is very high, the movement of the life air is arrested. At that time the living entity loses knowledge of identifying the body with the self. PURPORT Foolish people deny the existence of the soul, but it is a fact that when we sleep we forget the identity of the material body and when we awake we forget the identity of the subtle body. In other words, while sleeping we forget the activities of the gross body, and when active in the gross body we forget the activities of sleeping. Actually both states — sleeping and waking — are creations of the illusory energy. The living entity actually has no connection with either the activities of sleep or the activities of the so-called wakened state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashvatama Posted November 23, 2007 Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 That's hogwwash.The material world exists for real and that is where you are right now. It is called illusion only because it is temporary. Otherwise, you are definitely in the material world, it is real and you are thinking that the material energy is for your enjoyment. That is the only maya. Maya means that which is not. The material energy is real. That which is not is that you are not the Lord of all you survey. The material world is real. You are here. Your dream that you are the enjoyer of the senses is the only illusion you have to overcome. The material energy is simply what the spiritual energy becomes when you try to exploit it. It is real. Your ego is not. You have explained the dream Text 1b:Canto 4 http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto4/chapter29.html#Text%201b The great mystery of it all is that, with what is directly seen and remains to be seen, the material existence is vanquished like during one's sleep; in other words, that what has happened, the present and the future is a dream itself.' Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. That is the secret understanding in all Vedic literature Canto 11 Text 30 As long as a person is convinced of many different purposes and does not subside by the appropriate methods [as mentioned] will he, although awake, be sleeping unaware as in a dream [see also B.G. 2: 41]. According to My instructions, one should fix the mind on Me alone. If, however, one continues to see many different values and goals in life rather than seeing everything within Me, then although apparently awake, one is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream . Text 34 Purport Canto 11 The modes of nature divide the soul's consciousness into normal wakefulness, dreaming and dreamless sleep. All such varieties of perception, however, are actually mâyâ and exist only like a dream. Everthing about dreaming in the material world is found here - http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=dream++dreaming+srimad+bhagavatam&btnG=Search&meta= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted November 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2007 But, you guys keep forgetting that for us the dream is real. It is only unreal to the liberated souls. For all us souls in the dream it is as good real because we take it all very seriously. It is NOT a dream for one who is in the illusion. For him, the dream might as well be real because that is the only reality he knows or relates with. The dream is only a dream for those who are not dreaming. For all US dreamers, the dream might as well be real because it is the only thing we understand. Everybody says "it is all just a dream", but then they live only for the dream and have no connection with reality. So, for all those who say it is just a dream that just makes them all the more stupid looking because the dream is STILL reality for them as far as their actual situation goes. "it's a dream prabhu"..... but they still are chasing after the dream.... so what good does it do for them to say it is a dream? When you quit chasing the dream, then come back and tell me it is just a dream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted November 24, 2007 Report Share Posted November 24, 2007 The dream is only a dream for those who are not dreaming. . Yes, Srila Prabhupada says that only those who not 'dreaming' of the material world are in Goloka in their original bodily constitutional position They are are not dreaming in/of the material world, this means both you and I are caught up in a dream we think is real but in comparision to the eternal 'presents' in Goloka, it is only real for a short time, then fades away to the piont that it never was, hence the meaning of maya, that which is not. THIS IS WHAT THE WORD DREAM MEANS IN THIS CONTEXT The dream you and I are presently having, that includes our material body and mind, is an illusion, hence dream means illusion in the material world, somthing that fades away to the point that it will seem that it never really existed. Real existence is permanant and never fades away. Therefore the material 'dream' existence is real, but only temporarally real. Eventually your material body and mine will be as if it never was, as if it never even existed in the first place. Srila Prabhupada - "Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. That is the secret understanding in all Vedic literature" Text 1b:Canto 4 Purport Srimad Bhagavatam Srila Prabhupada - "One is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream". Canto 11 Text 30 Purport Thanks Ashvatama for your imput. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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