Rahu at it again?.... or going beyond myth?

[theist 1]

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Stay up late - or get up early - for spectacular lunar eclipse

 

David Perlman, Chronicle Science Editor

Monday, August 27, 2007

 

 

A lovely total lunar eclipse will be visible throughout the Bay Area and all of California before dawn Tuesday morning as the Earth's shadow darkens the bright full moon, and wherever skies are clear, it will be a time to look upward wide-eyed.

Astronomers say the eclipse should be a beauty, but only people willing to stay up very late or set their alarm clocks for long after midnight will see it.

It will last for a full hour and a half, and during that time, the moon's color could be anything from a dull and dusky red-brown to a reddish or even orange glow, depending on how much dust, pollution and mist is in the atmosphere, according to Andrew Fraknoi, chair of astronomy at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, who has observed many in his time.

For the wide-awake, a partial eclipse will start at 1:51 a.m. Tuesday and become total starting at 2:52 a.m. By 4:22 a.m., the total phase will be over, but then as the moon begins to emerge from Earth's shadow, another partial phase will begin. The eclipse will end at 5:24 a.m., just as the sky lightens at dawn.

Lunar eclipses take place when the full moon and the sun are opposite each other in space, and the Earth in between them casts its shadow over the bright moon's face. But even when the eclipse is total, some indirect sunlight manages to reach the moon. The earth's atmosphere filters out most of the sun's blue light, leaving only the red frequencies to light the lunar surface.

"Since the moon is always safe to look at and the eclipse only makes the moon darker, there's no danger in watching this eclipse with your eyes or through a telescope," Fraknoi said.

Binoculars would be a neat way to watch the event, he said, because they could make some of the bigger craters stand out as the Earth's shadow begins to pass over the moon during the partial phase.

And watching the partial phase before totality should reveal something that the ancient Greeks discovered more than 2,000 years ago - that the Earth was round. So it wasn't Magellan whose voyage first showed that. It was Aristotle, who died in 322 B.C.

In eclipses of the moon, Aristotle wrote, the outline of the Earth's shadow is always curved, "and since it is the interposition of the earth that makes the eclipse, the form of this line will be caused by the form of the earth's surface, which is therefore spherical."

The lunar eclipse this year should be "really beautiful and like nothing you've ever seen before," said astronomer Ben Burress at the Chabot Space and Science Center high in the Oakland hills. "It's one of the longest lunar eclipses we've had."

The Chabot observatory is planning a big "Once in a Red Moon" all-night viewing party on its deck and in the planetarium with lunar-themed music. It will open at 10 o'clock tonight with hikes for the public and telescopes to see through. If the Bay Area's fog or clouds don't cooperate, the planetarium will show a simulation of the event.

Fred Espenak, an astronomer at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., has calculated the dates and times of past lunar eclipses from 2000 B.C. to the present, and on through to A.D. 3000. In that 5,000-year span, he said, there will have been 3,505 total eclipses of the moon, including 230 during the 21st century, and 4,213 partial eclipses, including 58 in this century.

Eclipses, of course, have long been harbingers of doom or evil in mythology, and lunar eclipses are no exception - mostly involving the moon swallowed up by gods or demons or other creatures.

According to some records, the Maya of Central America, for example, believed that a jaguar ate the moon and could devour people, too, while in ancient China it was a three-legged toad. To the Mongols it was a dragon named Alkha.

In Egypt in the time of the Pharaohs, lunar eclipses were bad omens indeed, because the moon was supposed to be the "ruler of the stars," and some ancient texts describe the entire sky as swallowing the moon during every eclipse.

While it wasn't Columbus who showed the Earth was round, the Great Navigator did use a lunar eclipse to save his crew during his last voyage to America in 1503, according to Bryan Brewer, author of the book "Eclipse."

After Columbus and his crew had been stranded on the island of Jamaica for months, the Indians finally refused to provide them with any food, Brewer said. But Columbus knew that a total eclipse of the moon would occur on Feb. 29, 1504. So on that night Columbus told his Indian neighbors that God was angry with them for not cooperating, and that God would make the moon disappear.

It did, and when the locals saw the eclipse ending, Columbus told them that God had forgiven them and the moon would return in full. It did, and Columbus and his crew ate heartily.

[mahak 0]

Hes actually a deva, but rahu lost his head. So he eats the moon, but when he swallows, boom, theres the moon. Clear to me, this is why it turns blood red right at the end of an eclipse, the neck is still flayed out.

 

I dont believe in shadows. mahak

[theist 1]

 

Hes actually a deva, but rahu lost his head. So he eats the moon, but when he swallows, boom, theres the moon. Clear to me, this is why it turns blood red right at the end of an eclipse, the neck is still flayed out.

 

I dont believe in shadows. mahak

 

Hmmmm....yeah that sounds logical mahak. :D:D:D:D

[gHari 0]

The shadow of the earth, where is it when it's not falling on (or eating) the moon? Is this mystical shadow known as Rahu? That is, when the earth blocks the influence of Vivasvan is Rahu born? Maybe we'll find a pastime here of the demigods that explains clearly just who Rahu is, and therefore how and why he manifests in the physical realm. An example just so we can see it is not all so very far-fetched: S + E get together and produce an offspring, R who periodically influences E's associate, M.

 

But I will be out there with binoculars for this one. Maybe the answer will be revealed. Maybe it won't. I take what I get. Thankfully.

 

Give us this day our daily buddhi-yogam.

 

Forever and ever, Amen

[theist 1]

Wish I could watch it. Landlord locked the roof door on us.

[gHari 0]

SB 5.24.1

SrI Sukadeva GosvAmI said: My dear King, some historians, the speakers of the PurANas, say that 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles] below the sun is the planet known as RAhu, which moves like one of the stars. The presiding deity of that planet, who is the son of SiMhikA, is the most abominable of all asuras, but although he is completely unfit to assume the position of a demigod or planetary deity, he has achieved that position by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Later I shall speak further about him.

 

SB 5.24.2

The sun globe, which is a source of heat, extends for 10,000 yojanas [80,000 miles]. The moon extends for 20,000 yojanas [160,000 miles], and RAhu extends for 30,000 yojanas [240,000 miles]. Formerly, when nectar was being distributed, RAhu tried to create dissension between the sun and moon by interposing himself between them. RAhu is inimical toward both the sun and the moon, and therefore he always tries to cover the sunshine and moonshine on the dark-moon day and full-moon night.

 

SB 5.24.3

After hearing from the sun and moon demigods about RAhu's attack, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, ViSNu, engages His disc, known as the Sudarzana cakra, to protect them. The Sudarzana cakra is the Lord's most beloved devotee and is favored by the Lord. The intense heat of its effulgence, meant for killing non-VaiSNavas, is unbearable to RAhu, and he therefore flees in fear of it. During the time RAhu disturbs the sun or moon, there occurs what people commonly know as an eclipse.

 

PURPORT

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, ViSNu, is always the protector of His devotees, who are also known as demigods. The controlling demigods are most obedient to Lord ViSNu, although they also want material sense enjoyment, and that is why they are called demigods, or almost godly. Although RAhu attempts to attack both the sun and the moon, they are protected by Lord ViSNu. Being very afraid of Lord ViSNu's cakra, RAhu cannot stay in front of the sun or moon for more than a muhUrta (forty-eight minutes). The phenomenon that occurs when RAhu blocks the light of the sun or moon is called an eclipse. The attempt of the scientists of this earth to go to the moon is as demoniac as RAhu's attack. Of course. their attempts will be failures because no one can enter the moon or sun so easily. Like the attack of RAhu, such attempts will certainly be failures.

 

SB 6.6.37

In his wife SiMhikA, Vipracitti begot one hundred and one sons, of whom the eldest is RAhu and the others are the one hundred Ketus. All of them attained positions in the influential planets.

 

SB 6.18 Summary

[...] The demons born of Diti are also described in this chapter. In the dynasty of Diti appeared the great saintly devotee PrahlAda and also Bali, PrahlAda's grandson. HiraNyakazipu and HiraNyAkSa were the first sons of Diti. HiraNyakazipu and his wife, whose name was KayAdhu, had four sons--SaMhlAda, AnuhlAda, HlAda and PrahlAda. They also had one daughter, whose name was SiMhikA. In association with the demon Vipracit, SiMhikA bore a son named RAhu, whose head was severed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. KRti, the wife of SaMhlAda, bore a son named PaJcajana. HlAda's wife, whose name was Dhamani, gave birth to two sons--VAtApi and Ilvala. Ilvala put VAtApi into the form of a ram and gave him to Agastya to eat. AnuhlAda, in the womb of his wife, SUryA, begot two sons, named BASkala and MahiSa. PrahlAda's son was known as Virocana, and his grandson was known as Bali MahArAja. Bali MahArAja had one hundred sons, of whom BANa was the eldest. [...]

 

SB 6.18.12

The wife of HiraNyakazipu was known as KayAdhu. She was the daughter of Jambha and a descendant of Danu. She gave birth to four consecutive sons, known as SaMhlAda, AnuhlAda, HlAda and PrahlAda. The sister of these four sons was known as SiMhikA. She married the demon named Vipracit and gave birth to another demon, named RAhu.

 

SB 6.18.14

While RAhu, in disguise, was drinking nectar among the demigods, the Supreme Personality of Godhead severed his head. The wife of SaMhlAda was named KRti. By union with SaMhlAda, KRti gave birth to a son named PaJcajana.

 

SB 8.9 Summary

This chapter describes how the demons, being enchanted by the beauty of the MohinI form, agreed to hand over the container of nectar to MohinIdevI, who tactfully delivered it to the demigods.

When the demons got possession of the container of nectar, an extraordinarily beautiful young woman appeared before them. All the demons became captivated by the young woman's beauty and became attached to Her. Now, because the demons were fighting among themselves to possess the nectar, they selected this beautiful woman as a mediator to settle their quarrel. Taking advantage of their weakness in this regard, MohinI, the incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, got the demons to promise that whatever decision She might give, they would not refuse to accept it. When the demons made this promise, the beautiful woman, MohinI-mUrti, had the demigods and demons sit in different lines so that She could distribute the nectar. She knew that the demons were quite unfit to drink the nectar. Therefore, by cheating them She distributed all the nectar to the demigods. When the demons saw this cheating of MohinI-mUrti, they remained silent. But one demon, named RAhu, dressed himself like a demigod and sat down in the line of the demigods. He sat beside the sun and the moon. When the Supreme Personality of Godhead understood how RAhu was cheating, He immediately cut off the demon's head. RAhu, however, had already tasted the nectar, and therefore although his head was severed, he remained alive. After the demigods finished drinking the nectar, the Supreme Personality of Godhead assumed His own form. Sukadeva GosvAmI ends this chapter by describing how powerful is the chanting of the holy names, pastimes and paraphernalia of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

SB 8.9.24-27

RAhu, the demon who causes eclipses of the sun and moon, covered himself with the dress of a demigod and thus entered the assembly of the demigods and drank nectar without being detected by anyone, even by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The moon and the sun, however, because of permanent animosity toward RAhu, understood the situation. Thus RAhu was detected.

 

PURPORT

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, MohinI-mUrti, was able to bewilder all the demons, but RAhu was so clever that he was not bewildered. RAhu could understand that MohinI-mUrti was cheating the demons, and therefore he changed his dress, disguised himself as a demigod, and sat down in the assembly of the demigods. Here one may ask why the Supreme Personality of Godhead could not detect RAhu. The reason is that the Lord wanted to show the effects of drinking nectar. This will be revealed in the following verses. The moon and sun, however, were always alert in regard to RAhu. Thus when RAhu entered the assembly of the demigods, the moon and sun immediately detected him, and then the Supreme Personality of Godhead also became aware of him.

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari, using His disc, which was sharp like a razor, at once cut off RAhu's head. When RAhu's head was severed from his body, the body, being untouched by the nectar, could not survive.

 

PURPORT

 

 

When the Personality of Godhead, MohinI-mUrti, severed RAhu's head from his body, the head remained alive although the body died. RAhu had been drinking nectar through his mouth, and before the nectar entered his body, his head was cut off. Thus RAhu's head remained alive whereas the body died. This wonderful act performed by the Lord was meant to show that nectar is miraculous ambrosia.

 

RAhu's head, however, having been touched by the nectar, became immortal. Thus Lord BrahmA accepted RAhu's head as one of the planets. Since RAhu is an eternal enemy of the moon and the sun, he always tries to attack them on the nights of the full moon and the dark moon.

 

PURPORT

 

Since RAhu had become immortal, Lord BrahmA accepted him as one of the grahas, or planets, like the moon and the sun. RAhu, however, being an eternal enemy of the moon and sun, attacks them periodically during the nights of the full moon and the dark moon.

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the best friend and well-wisher of the three worlds. Thus when the demigods had almost finished drinking the nectar, the Lord, in the presence of all the demons, disclosed His original form.

 

SB 8.10.6

Both parties in that fight were extremely angry at heart, and in enmity they beat one another with swords, arrows and varieties of other weapons.

 

PURPORT

 

There are always two kinds of men in this universe, not only on this planet but also in higher planetary systems. All the kings dominating planets like the sun and moon also have enemies like RAhu. It is because of occasional attacks upon the sun and moon by RAhu that eclipses take place. The fighting between the demons and demigods is perpetual; it cannot be stopped unless intelligent persons from both sides take to KRSNa consciousness.

 

SB 8.10.30

The demigod AparAjita fought with Namuci, and the two AzvinI-kumAra brothers fought with VRSaparvA. The sun-god fought with the one hundred sons of MahArAja Bali, headed by BANa, and the moon-god fought with RAhu. The demigod controlling air fought with Puloma, and Sumbha and Nizumbha fought the supremely powerful material energy, DurgAdevI, who is called Bhadra KAlI.

 

SB 8.21.20

O Vipracitti, O RAhu, O Nemi, please hear my words! Don’t fight. Stop immediately, for the present time is not in our favor.

 

 

CC Adi 13.92

Considering this, RAhu, the black planet, covered the full moon, and immediately vibrations of "KRSNa! KRSNa! Hari!" inundated the three worlds.

 

PURPORT

 

According to the Jyotir-veda, a lunar eclipse takes place when the RAhu planet comes in front of the full moon. It is customary in India that all the followers of the Vedic scriptures bathe in the Ganges or the sea as soon as there is a lunar or solar eclipse. All strict followers of the Vedic religion stand up in the water throughout the whole period of the eclipse and chant the Hare KRSNa mahA-mantra. At the time of the birth of Lord Caitanya MahAprabhu, such a lunar eclipse took place, and naturally all the people standing in the water were chanting Hare KRSNa, Hare KRSNa, KRSNa KRSNa, Hare Hare/ Hare RAma, Hare RAma, RAma RAma, Hare Hare.

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

I just stepped outside to see if I could see the eclipse. The sky was clear and the eclipse was nearly total. The "shadow" portion of the moon *was* bright red as was predicted.

 

Knowing what I know, it is *still* an almost unnerving and mystical sight to see.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Just replied to a few posts and went back outside. Now the eclipse is total. The moon is very reddish indeed!

 

Now to see if I can get a bit more rest (or should I stay up and chant some japa? )

 

 

I just stepped outside to see if I could see the eclipse. The sky was clear and the eclipse was nearly total. The "shadow" portion of the moon *was* bright red as was predicted.

 

Knowing what I know, it is *still* an almost unnerving and mystical sight to see.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

No chance of me getting back to sleep!

 

Sitting in back yard reading Sri Guru and His Grace on the laptop watching the eclipse from time to time!!!

 

At the moment, the upper left side of the moon is beginning to whiten while the rest remains dark red (I just realized there must be many webcams documenting the event right now...).

 

Sri Nityananda-Balarama is most merciful indeed!

 

 

Just replied to a few posts and went back outside. Now the eclipse is total. The moon is very reddish indeed!

 

Now to see if I can get a bit more rest (or should I stay up and chant some japa? )

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

There's a light mist now creating a corona around the eclipsed moon...

 

No chance of me getting back to sleep!

 

Sitting in back yard reading Sri Guru and His Grace on the laptop watching the eclipse from time to time!!!

 

At the moment, the upper left side of the moon is beginning to whiten while the rest remains dark red (I just realized there must be many webcams documenting the event right now...).

 

Sri Nityananda-Balarama is most merciful indeed!

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

The moon is full again as the last remnants of the Earth's shadow passed to the lower right of the moon's surface (as seen from Earth, of course).

 

 

There's a light mist now creating a corona around the eclipsed moon...

[mahak 0]

Now that he has been curtailed, he gives the moon back to us. Thanx, gHari, and especially for a live update of events unfolding, murali mohan.

 

Nah, I dont believe in shadows. I fully accept that the moon has its only source of light, that it is not just something lit up by the sun. I would be more inclined to believe that a not so dense something comes between our line of vision and the moon (or the sun during the solar eclipse, since I dont buy that the moon blocks the way.) Rahu is a good a story than anyone elses speculation.

 

He ought to clean himself up, though, all that blood red stuff. But ya know, its hard to wash up if you just gotta head. The blood red moon makes the armageddon freaks freak out, they start thinking they are gonna be raptured, but start wondering if the made the cut of 144,000.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist 1]

Even Srila Prabhupada said this Rahu story is just an allegory. I must have posted the letter a thousand times.

 

Btw. Ain't no Santa Claus either.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

I like to think that the scientific view and the allegorical view can both be true in their own frames of reference.

 

 

Even Srila Prabhupada said this Rahu story is just an allegory. I must have posted the letter a thousand times.

 

Btw. Ain't no Santa Claus either.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Btw. Ain't no Santa Claus either.

 

I keep telling the kids that, but they just won't believe me!!

 

[theist 1]

 

I like to think that the scientific view and the allegorical view can both be true in their own frames of reference.

 

Not sure what you mean by this Murali.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Not sure what you mean by this Murali.

 

On the gross plane, the scientific explanation regarding the relative positions of the Earth, the moon and the sun may be true.

 

On a more subtle level, the story of Rahu may be true.

[theist 1]

I see what you mean. Any chance of it just being a fable?

[gHari 0]

I stayed awake all night, then went out sitting in a folding chair drowning in the mahamantra, like when Lord Caitanya appeared. Rahu wasn't going to dump bloody inauspiciousness on this boy's life. No way, Jose.

 

But that coward, Rahu didn't come. I went back to the net and got the times right, then suddenly from my window I caught Rahu eating up the moon, starting at the top. I knew if the mahamantra continued Lord Visnu would eventually come and chase the immortal head of Rahu away. It took some time, a few hours actually, but Rahu at last left Sleepy Hollow and the moon became spotless again. Except for a few rabbit footprints here and there.

 

Allegory and history - I personally accept that my Lord Sri Krsna who is so creative and grand and flamboyant actually creates a history that itself is the story, the lesson. He is the ultimate artist using physical reality as a canvas, the ultimate preacher using every second as a metaphor. So for the great history-versus-allegory debate, I have to take the 'acintya' humble vote.

 

ALLEGORY:

 

Vrindavana

 

7 November, 1972

 

 

My Dear Krsnadasa,

 

 

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated October 30, 1972, and I have noted the contents. It appears that you are again constantly disturbed by the same nonsense doubts. These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. If we are seeking to find out some fault, maya will give us all facility to find any small thing and make it very big, that is maya. But such questions as yours: why there is so-called discrepancy between the views of Bhagavat and modern scientists regarding the moon and other planets, and whether Hitler is good or bad man, these are most insignificant matters, and for anyone who is sincerely convinced that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for him these questions do not arise. Our information comes from Vedas, and if we believe Krishna, that

 

 

vedaham samatitani

 

vartamanani carjuna

 

bhavisyani ca bhutani

 

mam tu veda na kascana

 

[bg. 7.26]

 

 

that He knows everything, and ``vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham,'' that Krishna is non-different from Vedas, then these questions do not arise.

 

 

But because you have asked me, I am your spiritual master, I must try to answer to your satisfaction.

Yes, sometimes in Vedas such things like the asura's decapitated head chasing after Candraloka, sometimes it is explained allegorically. Just like now we are explaining in 4th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the story of King Puranjana. Just like the living entity is living within this body, and the body is described there as city with nine gates, the intelligence as the Queen. So there are sometimes allegorical explanations

. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? So we are concerned with Krishna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavat, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

But this is a fact that in each and every planet there is a predominant deity, as we have got experience in this planet there is a president, so it is not wonderful when the predominating deity fights with another predominating deity of another planet

. The modern science takes everything as dead stone. We take it for granted that everything is being manipulated by a person in each and every affair of the cosmology. The modern scientists however could not make any progress in the understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, therefore we do not accept modern science as very perfect.

We take Krishna's version:

gam avisya ca bhutani

dharayamy aham ojasa

pusnami causadhih sarvah

somo bhutvah rasatmakah

(BG, 15.13)

``I become the moon,'' and ``yac chandramasi yac cagnau,'' (ibid, 12) ``I am the splendor of the moon,'' and ``jyotisam api taj jyotis,'' (BG, 13.18) ``I am the source of light in all luminous objects,'' so no one is able to give us the correct information than Krishna, that you should know

.

 

 

Regarding Hitler, so Hitler may be good man or bad man, so what does he help to our Krishna Consciousness movement? But it is a fact that much propaganda was made against him, that much I know, and the Britishers are first-class propagandists. And I have heard that his officers did everything without informing him, just like in our ISKCON there are so many false things: ``Prabhupada said this, Prabhupada said that.'' But we have nothing to do with Hitler in our Krishna Consciousness. Do not be deviated by such ideas ``Jnanam jneyam jnana-gamyam,'' (ibid), Krishna is knowledge, He is the object of knowledge, He is the goal of knowledge, and

 

 

you mam evam asammudho

 

janati purusottamam

 

sa sarva-vid bhajati mam

 

(BG, XV, 19)

 

 

``Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and he engages himself therefore in devotional service''--this is the understanding of advanced devotee, so my best advice to you is to agree to come to this understanding. Your ever well-wisher,

 

 

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

 

[Guruvani 0]

 

I see what you mean. Any chance of it just being a fable?

 

Any chance we are the fables and Rahu is more real than us?

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Any chance we are the fables and Rahu is more real than us?

 

Well, in a sense, we and our world are just something that Maha-Vishnu is dreaming up, right?

 

Regarding allegory: once something has been conceived of in the mind, it has already begun to take on a sense of reality (if only on the plane of mind). Certainly, almost every tangible invention began as a mental conception.

[theist 1]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Guruvani

Any chance we are the fables and Rahu is more real than us?

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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No, no chance. We are by nature reality as particles of Krsna. As is the spiritual soul supposedly acting as Rahu within this universal play. It is the Rahu as fable or Rahu as false designation that is the illusion.

 

Anyway it is not a problem if people assume this is a little happening as long as they don't speak about it as a literal truth and insist to someone that it is part of Krsna consciousness. It is not. To do so would leave the impression that Krsna consciousness is nothing but a bunch silly myths.

[gHari 0]

We have to be very careful here. At some level of reality is not Vivasvan riding a one-wheeled chariot around causing his material form, the sun to travel in its orbit? It seems to be a lot of setup in the Bhagavatam, in terms of Rahu's father and mother and jugs of nectar and Dhanvantari and MohinI-mUrti and Kurma and so much more, just to set up a "sillly myth". Will it all fold like a house of cards if we start dismissing paradoxes and the extraordinary as allegory and myth?

[theist 1]

 

We have to be very careful here. At some level of reality is not Vivasvan riding a one-wheeled chariot around causing his material form, the sun to travel in its orbit? It seems to be a lot of setup in the Bhagavatam, in terms of Rahu's father and mother and jugs of nectar and Dhanvantari and MohinI-mUrti and Kurma and so much more, just to set up a "sillly myth". Will it all fold like a house of cards if we start dismissing paradoxes and the extraordinary as allegory and myth?

Well gHari what will never fold like a house of cards is Krsna consciousness. The Lord as the light of the sun etc. per the quote you emboldened in that Prabhupada letter. Let everything fold and the essence, the substantive truth will ever remain untouched.

 

For instance the story of Prahlada. What if (I am not saying it is) it was story lesson given to us to illustrate how the Lord protects His pure devotee among many other lessons (like there is no way to cheat God in His form as death for example). And that Supreme Lord most certainly resides within everything including a pillar. And how pure faith, love and devotion as shown by Prahlada are the means to invocate His personal manifestation into our lives.

 

I don't know if the Prahlada story is literal history or not nor does it matter to my little life. In either case I need to follow the example set by Prahlada. Isn't that the essence Srila Prabhupada was speaking of here:

 

So we are concerned with Krishna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavat, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

Is the Kurma incarnation literal? I don't know. But I do know that the Supreme Lord taking the form of a giant tortoise is certainly possible for Krsna with no problem so why not literal? But if it is not it matters not to me. Because I know He can.

 

Just like Vishnu threading camels through a needle, (was that it or am I mixing up a bible story?). Anyway the faith of the simple man that Vishnu could do anything was all that was required and the faithlessness of the brahmana was also another lesson.

 

So my point is we need to "take the essence of the Bhagavatam" and propagate that and not worry about the literalness of the story vehicle (or historical events).

 

pranams

[gHari 0]

Srila Prabhupada lectures about too much allegory:

 

 

So tvAM zIla-rUpa-caritaiH parama-prakRSTaiH. So when incarnation of God comes, He performs wonderful acts. Like KRSNa--He performed wonderful acts. Leaving all things aside, simply if we take the Bhagavad-gItA, that wonderful philosophy... Nobody can deliver such... [break] There is no history in the world, no comparison, such full information of the science of God. And other acts we hear from..., just like in childhood He played so many wonderful things. So those who are surrendered, they believe and therefore they receive the desired result. TvAM zIla-rUpa-caritaiH parama-prakRSTaiH. And the activities of God and His representative are described where? In scriptures, book of authority.

VyAsadeva had no business, or Sukadeva GosvAmI had no business to describe some fiction, some allegory

. Just like fools, they interpret zAstras, "This means this. This means that," according to their own..., as if God left for commentary of that fool, left everything for commentation for that fool. Just like in the Bhagavad-gItA in the beginning it is stated, dharma-kSetre kuru-kSetre samavetA yuyutsavaH [bg. 1.1]. Now, this dharma-kSetra, kuru-kSetra, is described by some eminent politician as this body. Now, there is no dictionary in the world where it is stated that kuru-kSetra means this body, but still, he is interpreting in that way, as if KRSNa left for him that "In future kuru-kSetra meaning will be disclosed by that fool."

 

 

So these things are going on. These things are going on. And people are captivated by nice explanation. Oh, the theory is that "Everyone can interpret in his own way, everyone is free, everyone is God," and everything, all nonsense. No. We should give up that nonsensical way of realizing God. We should learn from the authorized scripture. Sattvena sAttvikatayA prabalaiz ca zAstraiH. SAstraiH, in the scriptures, they are described. Now, that scriptures are to be accepted without any argument. Without any argument... Just we have given the example of cow dung. The cow dung is stated as purest. In one place it is stated that "Stool of animal is impure. If anyone touches, he will have to take his bath and then purify himself." But for cow dung it is stated, "If there is any impure place, just smear over it cow dung and it will be all nice." Now, argument is, "How is that, that one place you say that stool of animal is impure, and again one place you say cow dung is pure?" That is not contradiction. That is actually the fact. And modern scientists have analyzed cow dung, and he has found it is full of antiseptic properties. It is God's wish. Now, take for example cow. What cow eating? Grass, dry grass. And what it is producing? It is producing the nicest thing, milk, full of vitamins. Now, if you think, "Oh, then a dry grass and straw contains all vitamins. Let me eat," you will die. You will die. It is God's arrangement. The cow can produce the most vitaminous foodstuff by eating the dry grass. It is God's desire. The cow will eat at least twenty pounds of grass, and how it can eat the grains? It is not possible. So just like elephant--it will eat hundred pounds of thing. He must eat all these branches and twigs. So everything is God's arrangement. We have to accept that. Sattvena sAttvikatayA prabalaiz ca zAstraiH.

 

 

So in the authoritative zAstra, the activities of God is mentioned there, and practically it is demonstrated when God is present. And prakhyAta-daiva-paramArtha-vidAM mataiz ca. Mata means opinion. Just like we try to take opinion from a person who is accepted. Just like you are selling your Back to Godhead by Ginsberg's name because he is popular. So similarly, there are popular representative, popular authors, just like VyAsadeva, NArada, Asita, Devala, KumAra, Kapila, Manu. They have accepted. They have accepted. Even in the modern age, SaGkarAcArya, he accepted Lord KRSNa the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And what to speak of other AcAryas. They have... They are VaiSNavas. They will naturally. So we have to follow. MahAjano yena gataH sa panthAH [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. So there are opinions of great scholars and stalwarts, and there is mention in the zAstra, in the scriptures. And the activities have shown practically. So these things are there. And still, those who are atheists, they will not do it. They will not do it.

 

 

Similarly, the other part is that,

 

 

ullaGhita-trividha-sIma-samAtIzAyi-

 

sambhAvanaM tava parivraDhima-svabhAvam

 

mAyA-balena bhavatApi nighuHyamAnaM

 

pazyanti kecid anizaM tvad-ananya-bhAvAH

 

[Cc. Adi 3.89]

 

 

Similarly, God may hide Himself by His yogamAyA, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gItA: nAhaM prakAzaH sarvasya yogamAyA-samAvRtaH [bg. 7.25]. YogamAyA-samAvRtaH. Just like the sun is covered by the glaring disk. You will find if you look into the sun disk you will find a one circle is moving like that. Similarly, in the UpaniSad also, we find that the Supreme Lord is hidden within the brahmajyoti. The exact verse I forget just now. It is stated that "Please remove this cover so that I can see You actually." So within the brahmajyoti there is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So ordinarily people are amazed with simply brahmajyoti. They do not go deep into the matter. So ullaGhita-trividha-sIma-samAtIzAyi. God is beyond the limitation of our thinking and philosophical speculation. SambhAvanaM tava parivraDhima-svabhAvam: "Your very grave and confidential activities, it is very difficult to understand by ordinary men." MAyA-balena bhavatApi niguhyamAnam. MAyA-balena: "That yogamAyA, although it is covered in that way all Your activities," pazyanti, "somebody can see You." Pazyanty kecid anizam: "Not sometimes or accidentally, but anizam, continually, he can see You." Pazyanti kecid anizam tvad-ananya-bhAvAH. Ananya-bhAvAH means "Those who have unflinching devotion unto You." They can see. PremAJjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [bs. 5.38]. Although God is covered in that way...

 

 

There is very good instance in the SrImad-BhAgavatam. While KRSNa was dancing with the vraja-gopIs, He all of a sudden disappeared and all the gopIs, they became mad after Him and began to search in the forest: "Where is KRSNa?" So KRSNa, at one place, He situated Himself as ViSNu, as ViSNu, with four hands. Then gopIs, in their search after KRSNa, they saw: "Here is ViSNu sitting." So they did not care. "Oh, He is ViSNu. We don't want." Now see. They are seeing ViSNu is sitting, but they do not care for ViSNu: "Oh, we don't want this." They do not care for even ViSNu. They are searching after KRSNa. And when RAdhArANI came, KRSNa could not hide Himself with four hands. He had to become two-handed. The RAdhArANI's love was so forceful that KRSNa could not retain His hiding, I mean to say, feature of ViSNu. So for other gopIs He could hide Himself, but they did not care. They simply offered their..., "Oh, ViSNu. All right." But they want KRSNa. But when RAdhArANI came, KRSNa could not hide Himself with His four hands. He became immediately two-handed as KRSNa.

 

 

So it is the force of love. It is the force of ecstasy that will help you in understanding the science of KRSNa, not other way. Not other. You cannot make a speculation; you cannot... Because what is your power of speculating power? Your senses are limited. In conditioned stage our power of, I mean to say, acquiring knowledge through the senses, that is limited. So by limited senses you cannot go. Therefore acintya. AcintyAH khalu ye bhAvA na tAMs tarkeNa yojayet. Acintya. It is beyond our jurisdiction of thinking, understanding. So there is no other alternative than to follow this principle, follow this principle, to follow the opinion of AcArya. AcAryopAsanam. In the Bhagavad-gItA it is stated, "If if you want to make progress in knowledge, then you have to follow." AcAryopAsanam: "You have to worship AcArya." AcAryopAsanam. In the Veda it is: AcAryavAn puruSo veda. Veda means knowledge, one who knows. Who knows? "Who has got AcArya to guide him." AcAryavAn puruSo veda. So similarly, therefore, this Vedic system always gives us injunction. Tad-vijJAnArthaM sa gurum evAbhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "One must go to the authority." And how to become authority? There is no question of research, this research. Just like in the material world one becomes doctorate by research work, here there is no question of research. You simply have to accept what is stated in the Veda. That's all. That makes you all right. Research is already done. There is no question of taking trouble yourself. You simply accept. Just like KRSNa says, sarva-dharmAn parityajya mAm ekaM zaraNaM vraja: [bg. 18.66] "You give up everything and surrender unto Me." And if we foolishly go on seeing, "Oh, why shall I surrender?" as some very learned commentator, "Not to KRSNa, but somebody else..." Not like that. KRSNa says, "Surrender." Surrender yourself and you will see how you are making progress. That is the thing. KRSNa says, "You surrender." You surrender. That will make you happy. There is no question, "All right. Let me research, make research whether by surrendering to KRSNa I shall be happy." Go on. You can. If you want, you can go on researching. But you will never be successful to... Even in the Brahma-saMhitA it is stated, panthAs tu koTi-zata-vatsara-sampragamyaH. If you make research in a speed, and the speed is stated, koTi-zata-vatsara-sampragamyo vAyor athApi manaso muni-puGgavAnAm... Just like if you want to cover a path which is very long, and how you measure its length? Now, by research. What is that research? Now, you go on by force. What is that force? The force of mind and force of velocity of the wind, velocity of the wind and velocity of the mind. And you push on in that way for ten millions or more than years in that way, still, you will find avicintya: you have not reached the goal. Research. If you make your research in such a speed and for many millions of years, still, avicintya-tattva, still it will be inconceivable.

 

 

So the best thing is that to believe it, and accept the opinion of authorities, and believe by the activities of God and His incarnation, and submit yourself to get the thing. That's all.

 

 

Thank you very much. Any question? (end)