Did we enter the body at conception or we were already in the sperm before?

[Guruvani 0]

I'll just stick with what all the devotees understood during the time of Srila Prabhupada.

In the Prabhupada-era of ISKCON nobody was going around preaching that there was a soul in every cell of the body.

This new propaganda was never being preached during the time of Srila Prabhuapada.

 

It's something the fringeys and another generation of devotees are preaching.

Such preaching never existed in ISKCON during the time of Srila Prabhupada and for good reason I would think.

[mahak 0]

There is a simple way to understand whether or not something is a living entity. As Sriman Jahnava Nitai das has confirmed, Srila Prabhupada speaks of the six swymptoms of life. Rocks dont have these symptoms, rocks dont react to one striking it. But if one places acetone on a tree cell, there is reactivity, one of the six symptoms, thus, living. And if a cell should die, cease to exhibit the six symptoms of life, the tree does not necessarily die.

 

If cells die, and the being that is made up of such cells does not die, this means that there are multiple beings existant, some have died, others have not. I used the gaia philosophy to try to explain. The earth planet is alive, it has all six symptoms, and the earth has countless being living within her structure. Humans are like planets to the beings that exist on our mercy. We have a right to take the life of the viruses and bacteria that we dont like, and we actually cultivaqte bacteria that are beneficial, take enhancers to try to increase the health of these firendly beings.

 

And I was with prabhupada, and I always understood this from him. There is no void. Moon controversy aside, those who went to the moon (in Quartzite, Arizona) saw void because they only had eyes to see the void. They had no abiliuty to see heavenly bodies that exist there. In kali yuga, demigods have become invisible, not by their magic, but by deteriorating quality of the human eye and other senses.

 

To lowborn, I accept your initiation because you do, not by the opinion of others. This aint no club. To gv. Promises, promises!

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasda

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

To lowborn, I accept your initiation because you do,

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasda

 

it doesn't matter if you accept it.

it only matters if Srila Prabhupada accepts it.

 

that is certainly very questionable.

 

shastra says that a bad guru should be rejected.

If one doesn't obey shastra and find a proper guru, then really he doesn't have a guru.

[Jahnava Nitai Das 2]

 

One thing we know is that Srila Prabhupada always referred to the 8,400,000 SPECIES of life.

The modern biological definition of the term species is irrelevant in connection to Srila Prabhupada's statement. If you want to accept the academic biological definition, then humans are classified as animals. But Srila Prabhupada says humans are a seperate category of living entities numbering 400,000 species. It requires everyone to excercise their intelligence when reading the writings of the acharyas. Just because the word species is used does not mean we need to take out our 10th grade biology text book to look it up.

 

Srila Prabhupada based his statement on the following verse from the Padma Purana:

 

jalaja nava-lakshani

sthavara laksha-vimsati

krimayo rudra-sankhyakah

pakshinam dasa-lakshanam

trimsal-lakshani pasavah

catur-lakshani manushah

 

There are 900,000 categories of fish (jala-ja: those born in water).

 

There are 2,000,000 categories of trees and plants (sthavara: those who cannot move).

 

There are 1,100,000 categories of insects (krimi: worms, spiders or insects).

 

There are 1,000,000 categories of birds (pakshi: birds and flying animals).

 

There are 3,000,000 categories of animals (pashu: beasts, animals, etc.).

 

There are 400,000 categories of humans (manushya).

 

Bacteria has traditionally been classified as an "insect" in India, not as per the modern biological definition of insect, but as a "krimi". And that is why you will see Srila Prabhupada refer to indragopam sometimes as a "tiny insect" and other times as a microscopic bacteria.

[Guruvani 0]

 

The modern biological definition of the term species is irrelevant in connection to Srila Prabhupada's statement.

 

I am quite sure that Srila Prabhupada accepted the standard definition of the word "species".

 

Human tissue cells are not a species of life in anyone's books as far as I know.

 

If you can find any scientist or anyone besides you and Theist that claims that human tissue cells are a species of life then please present the evidence.

 

I have never heard Srila Prabhupada or any scientist as far as that goes refer to human tissue cells as a species of life.

 

You can never prove that human tissue cells are a species of life.

 

I think the idea that human tissue cells are a species of life is quite the ridiculous proposition that I have never heard before till you and Theist starting saying it on this forum.

 

I have never ever heard in my 32 years of any devotee ever refer to human tissue cells as a species of life.

 

I think the proposition is quite absurd.

[Guest guest]

Ravindra-svarupa: But it's seen that the scientists, they can take some skin from your body and by putting in different solutions can keep that skin itself alive for such a long time. They have taken the heart of a chicken out of the chicken's body and then kept it beating for so many hours even though that heart was away from the main chicken. Or they take some other tissue and keep it alive. So they say that each cell is an individual living being.

 

 

Prabhupada: So we have no objection.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Ravindra-svarupa: But it's seen that the scientists, they can take some skin from your body and by putting in different solutions can keep that skin itself alive for such a long time. They have taken the heart of a chicken out of the chicken's body and then kept it beating for so many hours even though that heart was away from the main chicken. Or they take some other tissue and keep it alive. So they say that each cell is an individual living being.

 

 

Prabhupada: So we have no objection.

that living being could be Paramatma.

 

He didn't confirm that it was a jiva.

It can never be proved that Srila Prabhupada said there is a jiva in every cell.

 

cells aren't born.

they are split by a chemical process.

it does not qualify as "birth" by any standard Vedic definition.

 

Shastra says that the body is made of Earth, Water, fire... etc.

 

If there were souls in each cell that would not be correct.

 

Earth means atoms and Paramatma is the soul of every atom.

 

fission is fission, birth is birth.... they are not the same.

[theist 1]

 

can the moderators please stop this vigraha person from clogging up topics with large font copy and paste.

 

none of us are blind here.

we don't need IN YOUR FACE huge font copy and paste dissertations.

 

we are trying to have a discussion and bounce ideas off of each other.

 

this vigraha guy doesn't appear to fit into any discussion as all he wants to do is get in everyone's face with his loud posts.

 

if somebody doesn't do something about it I will be going away from this forum.

 

Don't let the door smack your butt on the way out.

 

I am no fan of the giant print style but one thing Vigraha does not engage in is endless name calling and every other form of vitrioloic speech that you clog up every thread with guruvani. You are most prolific and irritating troll I have ever come across on the internet. That is just an honest observation.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Ravindra-svarupa: But it's seen that the scientists, they can take some skin from your body and by putting in different solutions can keep that skin itself alive for such a long time. They have taken the heart of a chicken out of the chicken's body and then kept it beating for so many hours even though that heart was away from the main chicken. Or they take some other tissue and keep it alive. So they say that each cell is an individual living being.

 

 

Prabhupada: So we have no objection.

tiny snippets from a conversation are most always used out of context.

 

if you can't show the whole conversation then you are probably hiding something.

 

It could all be forgery as far as that goes.

 

You didn't verify it with any mutally verifiable resource, so you are obviously trying to be slick.

[theist 1]

 

it doesn't matter if you accept it.

it only matters if Srila Prabhupada accepts it.

 

that is certainly very questionable.

 

shastra says that a bad guru should be rejected.

If one doesn't obey shastra and find a proper guru, then really he doesn't have a guru.

 

I lay all formal initiation ceremonies aside including yours. If you accepts the rest of Lowborns description of his approach to spiritual life then he is clearly in the PROCESS of real diksa and well situated.

[Guest guest]

Svarupa Damodara: The question that I wrote to Srila Prabhupada, the answer that Srila Prabhupada gave me was that the cells in the body and the jivatma that resides in the heart, they are different living entities. But my understanding was directed to the relationship between the two, the jivatma in the cells and the jivatma in the heart, how they are related, how they...

 

Prabhupada: They are separate identity.

 

Svarupa Damodara: But it looks like, though, in the material body the one cannot exist without another. They look like interdependent.

 

Prabhupada: That may be, but still, they are individuals.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Svarupa Damodara: The question that I wrote to Srila Prabhupada, the answer that Srila Prabhupada gave me was that the cells in the body and the jivatma that resides in the heart, they are different living entities. But my understanding was directed to the relationship between the two, the jivatma in the cells and the jivatma in the heart, how they are related, how they...

 

Prabhupada: They are separate identity.

 

Svarupa Damodara: But it looks like, though, in the material body the one cannot exist without another. They look like interdependent.

 

Prabhupada: That may be, but still, they are individuals.

individual cells doesn't say that there is a jiva in each cell.

 

Srila Prabhupada simply confirmed that each cell is an individual cell.

 

Nobody can ever produce a statement where Srila Prabhupada says that every cell of the body has a soul.

[HerServant 0]

Hi

 

The classic "Vaisnava / ISKCON devotee" attack on me throughout the years has been:

 

"You're speculating .. don't speculate .. you are a speculator"

 

So I read this forum .. and this thread ..

 

No speculation whatsover .. no speculation to be found here

 

 

HS and yours

[theist 1]

Jahnava Nitai das Please rescue us from this troll.

[Guruvani 0]

it appears that what we have in these references is some second-hand recollections from Svarup Damodar Maharaja and are based only on what he recalls and thinks Srila Prabhupada was saying.

 

it's not a verifiable statement from Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

Read again guruvani prabhu,

 

Svarupa Damodara: The question that I wrote to Srila Prabhupada, the answer that Srila Prabhupada gave me was that the cells in the body and the jivatma that resides in the heart, they are different living entities. But my understanding was directed to the relationship between the two, the jivatma in the cells and the jivatma in the heart, how they are related, how they...

 

Prabhupada: They are separate identity.

Svarupa Damodara: But it looks like, though, in the material body the one cannot exist without another. They look like interdependent.

 

Prabhupada: That may be, but still, they are individuals.

 

Ravindra-svarupa: When the jiva in the heart dies, then all the other cells in the body also have to die.

 

Prabhupada: No.

[HerServant 0]

 

Read again guruvani prabhu,

 

Svarupa Damodara: The question that I wrote to Srila Prabhupada, the answer that Srila Prabhupada gave me was that the cells in the body and the jivatma that resides in the heart, they are different living entities. But my understanding was directed to the relationship between the two, the jivatma in the cells and the jivatma in the heart, how they are related, how they...

 

Prabhupada: They are separate identity.

Svarupa Damodara: But it looks like, though, in the material body the one cannot exist without another. They look like interdependent.

 

Prabhupada: That may be, but still, they are individuals.

 

Ravindra-svarupa: When the jiva in the heart dies, then all the other cells in the body also have to die.

 

Prabhupada: No.

 

[Guruvani 0]

 

 

Ravindra-svarupa: When the jiva in the heart dies, then all the other cells in the body also have to die.

 

Prabhupada: No.

 

then our body should continue to grow after death.

 

it doesn't.

[HerServant 0]

 

those are unverified claims and most likely a forgery.

 

Svarup Damodar is the only one that said there was a jiva in each cell.

 

Those words have never come out of the mouth of Srila Prabhupada and I challenge anyone to show me where they have.

 

What Svarupa Damodar says is not the same as what Prabhupada said.

 

Srila Prabhupada has never said that every cell of the body has an individual soul.

It's just not there no matter how hard you try to say he did.

 

Like GBC bogus edits of Prabhupada's words on Jesus. He never said He is Sakti Avesya avatar in public, he said HE is Isvara!

 

Proof: Prabhupada always used Scripture as authority. There is no reference in ANY bonafide Vedic scripture of Sakti Avesya Avatar. Prabhupada would not have made up NEW terms to describe an Avatar.

[Guest guest]

I don't think I am encased in alien dark matter, but I believe it is dynamic material energy expressed via genes that determines part of our Atman. The spirit (jiva-tattva soul) encased in inferior layers of maya matter just generates an illusionery 'I' which has absolutely nothing to do with the soul.

[theist 1]

I got a PM from Guruvani

 

Jahnava Nitai das Please rescue us from this troll.

 

 

You whine like a little girl.

Maybe you need to go change your tampon?

 

Hairy Balls !

 

I won't send him a response of course. Maybe by making them public he won't continue. I am just glad this character doesn't have my home address.

[mahak 0]

Okay, Guruvani, I got you here. You state, in opposition to srila prabhupada:

 

then our body should continue to grow after death. it doesn't.

 

mahaksadasa: If your claim is true, then when we exhume bodies (my favorite pastime, BTW), they would look the same way they did at the time of death. But this is not the case. The other living beings in the body do not die, they continue their feeding frenzy and their life, so much so, that the funeral directors must take drastic measures to kill of these living entities before the open casket funerals (also my favorite subject and my expertise), with chemicals such as formaldehyde and other curing agents. The hair cells continue, the nails and other cells are growing, other cells are dismantling the carcass. You are only correct in the case of viruses and other parasites that do die because their source of life is the life of the being they have attacfhed themsaelves to.

 

As far as forgery claims, I dont doubt it. Throughout history, famous people have been attributed to sayings that never were said. But we can easily get around this by understanding a citation from St John, who ended his book of prophecy cursing the forgers. (I do this to say haribol to her servant, not to agitate guruvani). He is concerned with forgers, but gives allowance to the future commentators, aqnd fanatics have no understanding of his meaning. He curses those who change the MEANING, not the words, language, etc. Srila Prabhupada did not throw the word AVATAR around. He left that for the rock and roll stars like pete townsend. He uses Avatar to describe King Prthu, who was born whole with the partial incarnation of Sri Laxmi, Queen Arci. Hisw appearance leaves no doubt of his avatar status. He did not refer to his guru as avatar, and I have always cringed when the rtvik types try to say Srila Prabhupada is such. Mahabhagavata is a full word that is sufficient to describe the vaisnava acarya, all other words are embellishments made by fanatical kanistha adhikaris, and taken with a grain of salt. I have probably referred to prabhupada as shaktiavesa avatar, but I have no authority to make such a claim. But the meqaning is that Srtila Prabhupada is not ordinary, and this is acceptable, no matter which word I use. Curses are not going to befall those who say that he is avatar.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa PS The mailman comes to your house directly from the post office, so if we say the mailman is USPS, we are not lying. But the Post Office is much greater that the mailman.

[Guest guest]

Syamasundara: When you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a living entity with a small body. Each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance?

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

[Guest guest]

Svarupa Damodara: We were discussing that in all the living bodies, we have these innumerable cells, living cells. And in these cells... We were just discussing whether the Paramatma and the jivatma is still there even in the living cells.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

 

Svarupa Damodara: It is. It is there. So actually our body's a combination of these so many living entities.

 

Prabhupada: Atoms, yes. Why not? The every living entity is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. So many hairs are there. And that is one ten-thousandth part of the top of the hair. Where is the difficulty.

 

Bali Mardana: So there is one jivatma who's in control of the body. The others are subservient.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Jivatma is everywhere. But you have got your own field. Just like for agricultural purpose you have got a big field, but there are so many millions of microbes and...

 

Bali Mardana: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: But it is your field. Not that when you go out of the field one of them becomes you. No, that is not. That is individuality. When you leave, you leave your field. That's all.

 

Bali Mardana: So when we leave the field, then the other cells in the body also leave their field.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, therefore the germs come out as soon as it is proper time.

[Guruvani 0]

Srila Prabhupada always ends up talking about germs.

 

Well, I have news for you kiddies, the tissue cells of the body are not germ cells.

Srila Prabhupada clarified his position at the end when he made it clear he was talking about germs.

 

Srila Prabhupada made it clear he was talking about atoms and germs.

Those knuckleheads were trying to get him to say that every cell has a soul and he said "atoms" then at the end he said "germs".

 

so, sorry fellas, you didn't prove your point.

in fact you defeated yourselves with that quote from Srila Prabhupada.

 

maybe you guys have yourselves convinced, but you sure can't fool me.