ISKCON guru chastised and disciplined!

[Guest guest]

Really.... I mean, otherwise you just do things like what Satsvarupa did. He has no instruction on what is pleasing to Srila Prabhupada because he has no association of those who know what is pleasing to Srila Prabhupada or not.

 

THIS IS ALL AN EXCUSE TO DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO INSTEAD OF DOING WHAT IS PLEASING TO YOUR SRILA PRABHUPADA.

 

Go ahead and enjoy your minute independence its just sickening that you make it seem like youre the ones serving srila prabhupada

[Guest guest]

GuestJSP ... I comment you on the outstanding posts you have been writing. Please continue to do so.

 

Your posts expose the nonsense spuoted by the book-vadis and Vedabase-vadis.

 

 

 

Prabhupada was a nitya siddha for gods sake! You can't just imitate that. And, humbly, I think all those prabhupada disciples faired quite well when they were with him, and they went off course when they were away from him. Sure, there are those fortunate souls who were able to serve him from a distance, and perhaps they still are. But I think it is they who are blessed with the continued association of a pure devotee. Those who had problems even when they were with Srila Prabhupada fortunately received his mercy and corrected themselves.

 

Furthermore, we need instruction on how to serve in separation. We need to know if what we're doing is pleasing to our Guru or not. We're not capable of ascertaining that. We need someone who knows the internal mood of our Guru and is capable of telling that to us. That is the whole idea of SIKSA. You just don't know what is pleasing to your Guru unless you are REALLY quite advanced. And from what I've seen, most devotees (especially neophytes) really just don't know that!

[theist 1]

 

Really.... I mean, otherwise you just do things like what Satsvarupa did. He has no instruction on what is pleasing to Srila Prabhupada because he has no association of those who know what is pleasing to Srila Prabhupada or not.

 

The vapuvadis are always contradicting themselves. Here is yet another one. Satsvarupa is an example of someone who had some of the most association with Prabhupada's "physical" form and knows quitre well what is pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. He is actually a perfect example of why sitting next to the guru is not enough.

 

And Prabhupada's closest disciples (physically) caused great havoc even while he was physically present. Some were even kicked out of Iskcon by Srila Prabhupada for preaching Srila Prabhupada was God. Kirtananda went crazy long before Srila Prabhupada left the planet. The child rapers were active while Srila Prabhupada was on the planet. Bhavananda had Srila Prabhupada's close physical association did he not?

 

Really... I mean, even I know what is pleasing to Srila Prabhupada and any and all pure devotees. I was only in his presence in a general way like a SB class or seeing him riding lady Subhadra's cart at Ratha Yatra. It is no great esoteric secret that requires some special back room treaching to understand how to please Krsna's devotee. If we love Krsna will please them the most. If we give a reasonable attempt to advance towards that goal then the devotee will be reasonably pleased with us. If we are half hearted or less then the devotee will not be pleased with the bulk of our lives but will be pleased on our behalf by any sukriti we may have accumulated for our future advancement.

 

As to the details of sadhana bhakti that is in the books. Even the physically present devotee uses Bg, SB and CC to teach from as well as some others like NoD, NoI etc.

 

At it's most basic it comes down to chanting Hare Krsna in a humble state of mind.

 

The problem is not lack of knowledge. The problem is the vast majority of us don't want to love Krsna. It is not just that a potent guru is needed, a fertile disciple is also needed before spiritual conception (rebirth, diksa) can take place.

 

There will always be fake gurus and fake disciples. Remember the material world is the world of fake Reality so there should be no surprise.

 

And there is nothing any indivudal can do to stop that from happening. What we can prevent is being fake ourselves.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Srutasrava Prabhu agreed with you last night in his class at the Soquel Seva Ashram.

 

At the same time, we are encouraged to seek darshan of the saints.

 

It's not officially official, but word is that Srila Gurudev will be visiting Northern California later this year!!

 

 

Sadhu sanga is not about physical considerations. To reduce sadhu-sanga down to physical proximity is a foolish assault on all the books and instructions that all the great devotees have left for the Krishna consciousness movement.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

While GuestJSP has some interesting things to say, I find the assumption that there are no pure Vaishnavas in ISKCON to be presumptuous and offensive.

 

Maybe not all the members of the GBC are liberated souls, but Amala Bhakta Prabhu, to name one person, strikes me as an upstanding Vaishnava (not that I have a magic yardstick with which to measure devotion).

 

To say that ISKCON needs a pure Vaishnava from outside its ranks to save it is rather obnoxious, don't you think?

 

 

GuestJSP ... I comment you on the outstanding posts you have been writing. Please continue to do so.

 

Your posts expose the nonsense spuoted by the book-vadis and Vedabase-vadis.

[Guest guest]

 

I agree that the Spiritual Master ought not to be conceived of as living or dead. He is eternal, no doubt. However, who can see him? Who can truly understand and express his inner mood? Not any ordinary person. To think that we are capable of understanding the spiritual master's mood is merely an expression of our false ego. Just look at people who were so close to him, like Satsvarupa. If you will say that any certain pure devotee has not been associated with prabhupada physically and that he cannot possibly know Srila Prabhupadas's mood, to that I ask, 'so.. because satsvarupa was so close to prabhupada he knew his mood? That's why he is coming out with books like this?'

 

This is the whole point of SIKSA -- to come closer to our diksa guru, through someone who is qualified and knows your diksa gurus original intention. If any bonafide Guru were to run ISKCON, that's what you'd feel, closer to Srila Prabhupada, instead of having these bogus Gurus (satsvarupa, etc.) drown you in the illusion that reading and propogating these sex novels are something pleasing to prabhupada. If a pure devotee were running ISKCON, these things would never happen in the first place!

This is so academic. Many people have seen Prabhapda and still have not 'come close'. On the other hand many disciples have been initiated who have not even seen Prabhpada or conversed with him, and have made spiritual advancement. So your point that you need a physically embodied guru or you can't make advancement is on the material platform. It is religious with the lower case 'r'. Prabhupada didn't 'run' ISKCON. It's not a business or a corporation. It is a continuation of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. The acarya inspires and leads - he's not a CEO.

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree more, Murali prabhu. I didn;t wish to get into an argument with GuestJPS because his posts in general make so much more sense that the ones from bookvadis & vedabase-vadis.

 

I certainly disagree with GuestJPS is he thinks there are no pure Vaisnavas in ISKCON. I took to Krishna Consciousness because of ISKCON devotees and I think there's a hell a lot of pure devotees in ISKCON!!!

 

But the book-vadis, because of their envy, will not want to admit it and that's their excuse for avoiding saintly association. But to each his own, so we better leave them with their books and subsequently, poor understanding of sidhanta.

 

 

While GuestJSP has some interesting things to say, I find the assumption that there are no pure Vaishnavas in ISKCON to be presumptuous and offensive.

 

Maybe not all the members of the GBC are liberated souls, but Amala Bhakta Prabhu, to name one person, strikes me as an upstanding Vaishnava (not that I have a magic yardstick with which to measure devotion).

 

To say that ISKCON needs a pure Vaishnava from outside its ranks to save it is rather obnoxious, don't you think?

[Guest guest]

Exactly how does one define a pure devotee. Loyalty to ISKCON? Conformity to the GBC? That 's a holy excercise in begging the question.

[Guest guest]

Instead of speculating, read the Bhagavad Gita and you'll know

 

 

Exactly how does one define a pure devotee. Loyalty to ISKCON? Conformity to the GBC? That 's a holy excercise in begging the question.

[Guest guest]

 

Instead of speculating, read the Bhagavad Gita and you'll know

It's a question, the answer to which you presume by stating there are so many pure devotees in ISKCON. It's your statement not mine. I don't have to support it. You do.

[Guest guest]

 

While GuestJSP has some interesting things to say, I find the assumption that there are no pure Vaishnavas in ISKCON to be presumptuous and offensive.

 

Maybe not all the members of the GBC are liberated souls, but Amala Bhakta Prabhu, to name one person, strikes me as an upstanding Vaishnava (not that I have a magic yardstick with which to measure devotion).

 

To say that ISKCON needs a pure Vaishnava from outside its ranks to save it is rather obnoxious, don't you think?

 

It's always good to think good of others but realisticly, Amala Bhakta Prabhu may not have the same liberal attitude when considering those bhaktas outside of Iskcon.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

It's a question, the answer to which you presume by stating there are so many pure devotees in ISKCON. It's your statement not mine. I don't have to support it. You do.

Not really. The original statement was that ISCKON needs a pure devotee to rescue it. Is not the clear implied assumption that there are no pure devotees in ISKCON?

 

So, the burden is to prove that there are no pure devotees in ISKCON, and, as you so astutely observe, in order to do that, "pure devotee" must be defined in such a way as to be useful to a court of law (or at least the court of common sense).

 

I have never undertaken any such thing. I don't see anyone else attempting same.

 

The benefit of the doubt, therefore, must be given to ISKCON--there *MAY BE* (not that there *MUST BE*) pure devotees who are members of ISKCON.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

It's always good to think good of others but realisticly, Amala Bhakta Prabhu may not have the same liberal attitude when considering those bhaktas outside of Iskcon.

 

And in their pastimes, the Srila Prabhupadas have said so many things which may offend "sensible" people.

 

So what??????!?!?!

 

Whatever you say about him, Amala Bhakta Prabhu is his master's dog, is he not?

[Guest guest]

 

Not really. The original statement was that ISCKON needs a pure devotee to rescue it. Is not the clear implied assumption that there are no pure devotees in ISKCON?

 

So, the burden is to prove that there are no pure devotees in ISKCON, and, as you so astutely observe, in order to do that, "pure devotee" must be defined in such a way as to be useful to a court of law (or at least the court of common sense).

 

I have never undertaken any such thing. I don't see anyone else attempting same.

 

The benefit of the doubt, therefore, must be given to ISKCON--there *MAY BE* (not that there *MUST BE*) pure devotees who are members of ISKCON.

I'm not cross examining anybody. But the claim that there needs to be a pure devotee definitely implies there isn't one. Otherwise why use the word 'needs' which suggest a deficiency or absence?

The problem is that you don't manufacture them as easily as the GBC has manufactured its seventy some odd gurus. It's such a loaded term, it helps to refer to an authoritative definition.

[Guruvani 0]

 

What is a value of a process which after some 40 years of practice and following a proper guru does not produce even a single pure devotee?

 

Are you saying there are no pure devotees in Iskcon? How do you know that? How did your pure devotee become pure in your eyes?

 

The ritvik system does not say that there are no pure devotees in ISKCON.

Srila Prabhupada didn't appoint all his disciples as ritvik.

He appointed 11 of them as ritvik to work with the GBC as had been the system in ISKCON for several years.

 

You are the ones that say that the ritvik system means there is no pure devotees.

 

Maybe being a ritvik requires that one be a pure devotee?

 

Who said that ritviks can be impure?

I don't see how one can represent Srila Prabhupada without being pure.

 

In fact, being a ritvik requires the most pure and advanced of disciples.

Srila Prabhupada appointed his most successfull preachers as ritviks.

 

He chose some of his best men for the job.

 

One cannot be a proper ritvik and be a fool.

 

The position of ritvik actually demands a very high degree of purity.

 

Obviouslly, most all of them proved that they were not pure enough to execute the position and opted for a more self-centered position.

[theist 1]

 

Exactly how does one define a pure devotee. Loyalty to ISKCON? Conformity to the GBC? That 's a holy excercise in begging the question.

 

Even us unaffiliated fringes know the answer to that one. A pure devotee has unalloyed pure devotion to Krsna. Unmixed with jnana or karma. Pure devotional love, suddha bhakti. C'mon everyone here knows that.

 

There is a wide gulf in that mixed category. Room for lots of deifferent combinations. To the level of one's sincerity Krsna from the heart will allow us to hear the appropriate authority. And we should remeber just because we are in the same room as the devotees body and listening to his lectures doesn't quaruntee that we are hearing him in transcendence which is actual hearing.

 

What value is there in sitting back trying to critique anothers level of love for God on some internet forum? The only reason for giving serious consideration to this is in deciding who you as an individual want to hear from.

[Guest guest]

 

C'mon everyone here knows that.

 

 

Unlike yourself, I'm not an expert in what everybody knows. But if you're going to make a statement about who is pure devotee - you better have your defintion nailed down and close at hand.

[Guest guest]

Why is that hard? If you have a precise defintion, then applying it should be straightforward.

[theist 1]

 

Unlike yourself, I'm not an expert in what everybody knows. But if you're going to make a statement about who is pure devotee - you better have your defintion nailed down and close at hand.

 

Well ok so maybe I shouldn't have included you in that word everyone. but MOST everyone else understands it. And I feel no need to nail it down as it is all-pervading and always close at hand. Such is the nature of transcendental truth.

[Guest guest]

 

Well ok so maybe I shouldn't have included you in that word everyone. but MOST everyone else understands it. And I feel no need to nail it down as it is all-pervading and always close at hand. Such is the nature of transcendental truth.

Well Sukadeva Goswami saw a need to transmit it in detail - right out of the all -pervasive. Hence the need for sastra.

[theist 1]

Murali Mohan das has such a refreshingly balanced outlook. It's a pleasure young one. =:-)

[Guest guest]

 

The ritvik system does not say that there are no pure devotees in ISKCON.

Srila Prabhupada didn't appoint all his disciples as ritvik.

He appointed 11 of them as ritvik to work with the GBC as had been the system in ISKCON for several years.

 

You are the ones that say that the ritvik system means there is no pure devotees.

 

 

Ritvik schmitvik... if one is a pure devotee why he should not be considered a full blown guru? What is the matter? The system that worked from time immemorial all of a sudden broke down when Prabhupada departed? If it did, then what is the use of a process where after some 40 years of dilligent practice one cannot be qualified to take the post of a guru?

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Why is that hard? If you have a precise defintion, then applying it should be straightforward.

 

Yep, we need a new academic engineering discipline along the lines of "Applied Physics".

 

Call it "Applied Spirituality". Get lots of funding so that we can devise a litmus test for spiritual sincerity/purity.

[theist 1]

 

Well Sukadeva Goswami saw a need to transmit it in detail - right out of the all -pervasive. Hence the need for sastra.

 

Well I have given my understanding now why don't you give us yours. You know the one you learn from Sukadeva Gosvami. I am sure you can do that in a flash because no doubt you have it nailed down and close beside you.

 

Your turn.

[Guest guest]

 

Well I have given my understanding now why don't you give us yours. You know the one you learn from Sukadeva Gosvami. I am sure you can do that in a flash because no doubt you have it nailed down and close beside you.

 

Your turn.

I didnt' make the statements about pure devotees being in or out of ISKCON. That was several posts back in this already convoluted thread. I know Prabhupada wanted us to examine and scrutinize prospective gurus before accepting initiation.