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when is guru to be rejected?

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Hare Krishna



Theist , you have a very big and beautiful bud of love for Krishna there in your heart which by the grace of sadhu sanga can make that blossom beautifully.


Go out of the kitchen and find some sadhu sanga !



Radhe Radhe !


I have no shortage of sadhu sanga. My problem is my unwillingness to practice what they preach.

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Here we go again with definitions. In one scenerio one is reading the sadhu's words in book form and considering surrendering. In another scenario the sadhu is twisting our ear and telling us not to be a nonsense. If one is very advanced all they need is their gurus books and some help from Caitya guru. The average devotee needs a big slap from guru deva and sometimes maybe some words of encouragement.

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Beggar: The <b>average devotee</b> needs a big slap from guru deva and sometimes maybe some words of encouragement.


I agree 100%



Brajeshwar das: .......they pay their respects and acknowledge wherever they see Guru.


I agree 100%



Humility and honesty is the best policy in spiritual growth.


Hare Krishna

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Interesting discussions going on.


My Guru was teaching me about Madhurya Kadambini Grantha by Srila Chakravarti Pad. Although Rupa Goswami does indeed write 'adau sraddha tatah sadhu sango'tha bhajana kriya' iti. That is, thus faith then association of sadhus. Well, actually sadhu sanga must come first for one to have sraddha. This is a confidential explanation perhaps found in a purvacaryas commentary. And this preliminary sadhu sanga (whereby the sadhaka obtains faith, sraddha) comes only by some ajnata sukrti, that is, unknown sukrti. Unknowingly fasting on ekadasi, unknowingly accepting the remants of God, or unknowingly.. somehow or other gaining this pious merit. So really, it all depends on your sukrti. If you have it, you'll come under the radiant mellows of a vaisnava's grace, whoever he may be.


Hope that clears things up.

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Dear theist Dandavat pranam,


you commented Visvanatha Cakravarti's verse 2.6 from Madhurya-kadambini:


<u1:p></u1:p><u2:p></u2:p>"After attaining faith, one takes shelter of a guru and inquires about proper devotional behavior (sad-ācāra). Then, in accordance with the guru’s directions, one attains the fortune of associating with sadhus who are endowed with a similar mood, are affectionate and highly realized in devotional matters."


<u1:p></u1:p>and said


Now where did that faith come from?

<u2:p></u2:p>It came from Krsna in the heart (Caitya-guru) just like he says in the Gita,

<u2:p></u2:p>"I make his faith steady so that he may worship..."




<u2:p></u2:p>The evidence you presented from bhagavad-gita 7.21 for Caitya-guru as the giver of transcendental faith – shraddha is not quite proper:

<u1:p></u1:p>"Whatever devotee with faith (bhaktaḥ śraddhaya) in some demigod desires to worship him, I surely make his faith steady (acalāḿ śraddhāḿ )."


than you commented:

Yes I know He was speaking there about worship of demigods. Therefore I said in the next line that it is the "same principle" that is at work.




Dear theist, again dandavat pranam,



<u1:p></u1:p>From your reply it seems you didn’t acknowledge, the verse you quoted doesn’t support the principle you stated.


<u1:p></u1:p>Let’s look how you demonstrated that the verse is supporting your claim:


You quoted me :

<u1:p></u1:p> <st1:place u3:st="Krishna</st1:place"></st1:place>This verse doesn’t say that <st1:place><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place></st1:place> is the direct giver of the faith.From this verse one can see that previously there was a desire of the bhakta,and a faith which the bhakta had independently


And commented:

I don't believe it was a faith born independent of Krsna. I don't believe in the notion of independence from Krsna on any level.. …


But your commentary ignores what the verse is saying.

<u1:p></u1:p>Tthe verse from Bhagavad-gita 7.2 doesn't say that Krishna is the giver of faith but the one who strengthened an already existing faith.<u1:p></u1:p>

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Dear theist dandavat pranam,

You quoted the verse

bhaktis tu bhagavad bhakta saGgena parijAyate |

sat-saGga prApyate pumbhiH sukRtaiH pUrva saJcite || (Brihan Naradia Purana 4.33)

The inclination for devine devotion is awakened by the association with the devottes of the Lord

And the association with the pure devotees (SAT SANGA) <u1:p></u1:p>

can be attained by the accumulated effect of SUKRITI (eternal pious activities) performed over uncountable life times.

And commented

No problem. But how did the devotee come to even find the association of devotees in the first place. Obviously by the arrangement of Caitya-guru.

Please bring evidence from the shastra (commentary on shastra is not shastra, or they are themselves supported by shastra).

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Dear teist dandavat pranam,

You said:

I am simply trying to repeat the message found in this sutra. "By the grace of KRSNA one gets guru and by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."

Can you please give the exact quotation of the verse and we will analyze it.

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"By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."



A well known saying by Srila Prabhupada. Suo compact & concise in summarizing the whole essence of bhakti-yoga that I call it a sutra.


No need for a homework assignment to prove my positon to others brother anadi. Perceive it or not.




One entry found for sutra.<form name="entry" method="post" action="/cgi-bin/dictionary"><table valign="top" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td> <input name="hdwd" value="sutra" type="hidden"><input name="listword" value="sutra" type="hidden"><input name="book" value="Dictionary" type="hidden">

</td></tr></tbody></table> </form> Main Entry: su·tra audio.gif

Pronunciation: <tt>'sü-tr&</tt>

Function: noun

Etymology: Sanskrit sutra precept, literally, thread; akin to Latin suere to sew -- more at SEW


1 : a precept summarizing Vedic teaching; also : a collection of these precepts


2 : one of the discourses of the Buddha that constitute the basic text of Buddhist scripture

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This translation of the sloka in Vishvanath Cakravati Thakur's Gurvastakam is interesting we've always heard that



yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado

yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto ’pi

dhyayan stuvams tasya yasas tri-sandhyam

vande guroh sri-caranaravindam




Means "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, then by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."


And it definately always sounded perfect, and I still appreciate this but i have heard various different translations of this song. One from Chaitanya Saraswat Math goes like this:


"I worship the lotus feet of the divine master, ever singing his glories and meditating upon him at the three junctions of the day. By his grace alone does one gain grace of the Lord, and if he is displeased the soul has no shelter anywhere."


Therefore I feel this keeps us focussed regularly each morning that we may chant these prayers in trying to somehow please the sadhu (our gurudev) with our daily or even constant seva for our ever on going eternal benefit. And then our guru reciprocates bestowing increased service and insight, inspiring us to serve that pleasing potency in innumerable practical ways, and by bhajana kriya our anathas are dissolved.


I can truly empathise with this statement that without the grace of guru there is no chance of making spiritual advancement. Which is really our ongoing eternal concern, having first received some introduction to the Holy Names thru our Guru. We need constant feeding and nourishment.

As I understand we get a hazy conception of the Name first thru conscious sukriti or unconconscious sukriti but only thru the uttama guru do we get the Name proper. and according to how we act on the instructions we are given will our serving propensity increase... Like Bhakti begets more refined divya bhakti, like compacting interest.


I think I can understand what Theist is saying about us never being independant in the sense of how can the Lord be taken from our heart, but independance is a reality, perhaps an illusionary one, but it is the disease that keeps us from Him and we really need to acknowledge this state of separation with all honesty to further attract His Loving servitors Grace. That never ceases. Some devotees just seem to have the capacity to be on call 24/7 to their Gurus wishes, a very nice position for one's consciousness to be in.


Excuse me if this is an extention of something you didn't wish to continue but it is interesting to understand the inner purport to these deep bhajans.

It also has made me wonder where these daily programs of bhajan thru the different times of the day were inaugerated, and what songs Mahaprabhu sang whilst He was present. That's another topic.






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Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja:

…This weeping or crying is required. Unless the child cries the mother will not run and the child cannot get the mother's breast. Similarly, unless you cry, how can you get the darsana of Sri Guru? When the child cries, the mother runs to him. Similarly, although the guru may be in some other part of the world, when the disciple cries the guru runs there. Sri Guru is karuna-maya, he is causelessly merciful. Thus whether he is manifest or unmanifest he gives darsana to his disciple. He may also come in a dream to give his darsana.

This guru-tattva is nitya-tattva— an eternal transcendental tattva. It is eternally prakata, manifest. It is not aprakata, unmanifest. There is no question of guru-tattva becoming unmanifest. This sri-guru-carana is inconceivable. It cannot be understood through one's material knowledge, intelligence, or merit.

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There is no question of guru-tattva becoming unmanifest.


Exactkly!nthe only that becomes unmanifested is our spiritual vision iin regognize guru-tattva.


Krsna(includes gur) is right before our face right now. Do we recognize Him? If not that is because we want to bury our heads away from Him. He is never unmanfest. He remains everywhere at all times.

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I prefer not to thimk endlessly on things. Especially those that are so self evident. There is no way for any soul to get to know the spiritual master except by the arrangement of Krsna. And that arrangement is grace.


That is not that complicated to me. I am extremely surprised it is even a point of contention.

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"The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala: "Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species." (From the purport of Madhya 15.108)


A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden [...] One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. [...] Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. (Adi 1.35 Purport )


"His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body" (referring to Srila Bhaktisiddhnta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaj) ( Srila Prabhupada Letter to Rupanuga 4/28/74)


“Mundane votes have no jurisdiction to elect a Vaisnava acarya. A Vaisnava acarya is self-effulgent, and there is no need for any court judgment.” (Purport Madhya 1.220)


“Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.” (Lecture 10/28/75)


"But sometimes, if a spiritual master is not properly authorized and only on his own initiative becomes a spiritual master, he may be carried away by an accumulation of wealth and large numbers of disciples." (NOD 14)


“One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, "I am a first-class devotee." Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples.” (Madhya 7.130)


"A guru is worshiped... Just like my disciples. They are offering respect exactly like God. That is their duty. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih: "All the sastra recommends that guru should be respected as good as God." (lecture 7/15/75 San Francisco)


(The Supreme Personality of Godhead said:) "Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am. The spiritual master may be more than one. The spiritual master who instructs the disciples about spiritual matters is called siksa-guru, and the spiritual master who initiates the disciple is called diksa-guru. (KB 80)


What is the symptom of bona fide spiritual master? Everyone wants to become spiritual master. [...] he has taken shelter of the Supreme Absolute Truth, without any material desires. He has no more any material desires; he's simply interested in Krsna, or the Absolute Truth. (B.g. Lecture Pittsburgh, September 8, 1972)


" The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people." (Madhya 24.330)


" When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru." (Madhya 24.331 purport)


" One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master." (NOI 5)


"Unless one is a resident of Krishna Loka, one cannot be a Spiritual Master." (Letter Mukunda 6/10/69)


There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down" (Madhya 22.71)

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Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita


by Srila Narahari Sarkara Thakur


"Narahari was the fortieth (branch of the Caitanya tree)."


Verse 1


I offer my respectful obeisances to that incarnation of Godhead who has distributed more unlimited causeless mercy than any other Avatar. He is the total Lord of my life--Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu.


Verse 2


I offer my respectful obeisances to Sri Sukadeva Goswami who is like the ripened fruit of the trees of devotional service. He is eternally relishing in the transcendental mellows in devotional service.


Verse 3 & 4


During this Kali Yuga, when the time of Lord Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Sri Nitayananda Prabhu's transcendental pastimes become unmanifest. Their lordships become the object of

transcendental research and discussion. At that time all level of devotees including uttama adhikary, madhhyama adhikary, and kanistha adhikary shall always be in anxiety and it will be at all times. They shall almost feel uncertainty in their hearts regarding the correctunderstanding of the eternal truths of devotional service.


Verse 5 & 6


I offer my respectful obeisances in full surrender to the thousands and thousands of previous Vaisnavas and particularly to those paramahamsas, perfect souls, who meditate constantly in pure loving

devotion on the lotus feet of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and byHis mercy are studying all of the Vedic literature in regard to devotional service. Following in the footsteps of these great

spiritual authorities I shall explain the clear transparent conclusions of the scriptures in their concise, condensed form, with some detailed




Verse 7


I, Narahari Das, consider myself to be a fool. Therefore, how will I be able to explain this most difficult subject matter on the absolute conclusions of the sastra? Will the learned Vaisnavas bless

my deliberations that they may not be false or deviate from the authorized conclusions of the sastra in any respect.


Verse 8


In any case, whether someone has all good qualities or whether one has no good qualities, whether one is a fool or whether one is a great pandit; who is there in this material world who is able to completely

understand pure devotional service to Krsna.


Verse 9


In my sleep while dreaming I said the above words. While dreaming I was meditating upon the words of previous authorities and great Vaisnava acaryas and their conclusions on the authorized sastra in

regard to pure devotional service. While thus engaged in my dream suddenly my heart became filled with spiritual bliss as if I had entered and taken shelter of an ocean of transcendental nectar.


Verse 10 & 11


Just at that time Lord Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared holding the hand of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. Lord Caitanya said, "sadhu, sadhu." As lord Caitanya said these words he was laughing

and he came and stood before me saying, "What our have said is certainly true. Now awaken and arise." Saying these words again and again Lord Caitanya disappeared from my vision.


Verse 12


Thereafter, meditating on the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krishna Caitanya Mahaprabhu who is known as Gaurahari, I got up from my bed and I was feeling great separation being deprived of his transcendental

association, I considered my unqualified self blessed by Lord Caitanya's causeless mercy upon me.


Verse 13


Feeling myself blessed by the mercy of lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu and remembering His merciful words, while being absorbed in the remembrance if His transcendental glories I was immersed in

an ocean of transcendental bliss. At that time I could not understand my actual condition.


Verse 14


On the strength of the mercy of Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu I have decided to write something. Using my intelligence I have considered the truth of devotional service and although considering

myself a fool I have written in my own hand, sometimes in verse and sometimes in prose, this supremely auspicious "Bhajanamrta."


Verse 15


In this Kali Yuga the great paramahamsa perfect devotees who have descended to this universe in order to purify it have blessed me with their remnants which I have accepted. As I am strictly following

in the footsteps of these liberated souls this work is completely purified with their blessings.


Verse 16


At the outset of this work my humble prayer is that all pure, non-envious devotees of Lord Sri Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead may listen to these authorized words as I have heard them from

the great Vaisnava authorities of the disciplic succession.


Verse 17


It is well known from the authorized Vedic literatures that in this Kali Yuga, through the power of the holy name of Lord Sri Krishna, all Vaisnavas are equal and qualitatively noon-different from Lord Krsna. However, it is seen that amongst the Vaisnavas that sometimes in some places some Vaisnavas appear greater or lesser. In such cases how is it to be understood?


Verse 18


Amongst all of the assembled Vaisnavas there is the initiating guru and the instructing guru. In regard to them what type of behavior is authorized.?


Verse 19-27


not included

Verse 28


Now listen to the authorized conclusions of the previous authorities.


Verse 29


It is certainly true that all Vaisnavas are on the same transcendental platform. However, although amongst Vaisnavas there may be a difference in spiritual strength, how will the less intelligent materially attached sense-gratifiers, who become afraid justly seeing the horrifying appearance of beggar mendicants, ascertain the actual strength of a saintly person? Since they cannot distinguish between a lesser spiritual force and a greater spiritual force, they do not know how to deal appropriately with different saintly persons. Therefore they treat every one the same. Since they don't know how to distinguish the specific character of greater spiritual personalities from lesser spiritual personalities rather than risk their destruction for neglecting a potentially spiritual personality they treat everyone on the same level.


Verse 30


However all those practicing Vaisnavas progressing on the path of devotional service, who have heard and understood the conclusion of the revealed sastras and are therefore endowed with special intelligence are able to recognize who is more spiritually powerful and who is less spiritually powerful. Those who are expert in the science of devotional service can understand in whose body what quantity of Krsna's spiritual potency is present. Being able to understand who has less spiritual potency and who has more spiritual potency, they offer special treatment considering the scriptural injunctions in this regard.


Verse 31


If one can distinguish between the greater or lesser spiritual strength of a person but does not accordingly offer respect, then that person shall be held guilty for that offense.


Verse 32


For the reason mentioned before, if two Vaisnavas come at the same time, one of greater strength, one of lesser spiritual strength, first one has to offer respect to the Vaisnava of greater strength then offer

to the Vaisnava of lesser strength.


Verse 33


Should the respect due to a Vaisnava of greater strength or to a Vaisnava of lesser strength be offered at the same level if they come at a different time? Equal respect should not be offered to both even if they are not present at the same time.


Verse 34


If a volcano type of fire is burning, the wise man will not first put out.......first one has to be able to extinguish the volcano fire then a candle of deep light can easily be extinguished. Similarly if one is

able to appropriately receive and respect Vaisnavas possessed of great spiritual force to their satisfaction, then on shall easily be able to satisfy those Vaisnavas of lesser potency.


Verse 35


If a person of small spiritual advancement sees a great devotee endowed with considerable spiritual potency being worshipped and given respect, should the less advanced person become angry upon

seeing this? For this offence against the more advanced person's spiritual position the foolish offender will ruin whatever spiritual potency he possesses. Subsequently, in the future, such angry persons simply plan how they can punish those who have participated in such worship.


Verse 36


Those who are well-versed in all of these matters, having heard properly from authorities, those Vaisnavas who are enthusiastically engaged in worshipping the Supreme Personality of Godhead and all

those transcendentalists who are practicing the spiritual path, know the truths in regard to these matters. However, in spite of knowing these truths, if they do not appropriately offer worship, then they

will be spiritually ruined. However, if they consider the respective spiritual strength or lack of strength and accordingly offers respect then they will certainly advance in Krsna Consciousness.


Verse 37


For those who take shelter of the great Sumeru mountain what can others do to harm them? Others should offer them worship as devotees with respect and service.


Verse 38


One should never engage in criticizing a Vaisnava or neglecting a Vaisnava even in joking. For Vaisnavas are so glorious that there is nothing to regret even if one sacrifices ones life for theirbenefit.


Verse 39


No one should find fault with a Vaisnava for his activities or behavior. What person is free from the influence of Kali Yuga or has perfect pure behavior and action?


Verse 40


Because the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord are always meditating on Lord Sri Krsna the contamination of sinful activities cannot come upon them. Because a Vaisnava's body has the fire of Krsna

Consciousness within it, even if they are fallen, this fire of Krsna Consciousness will burn up to ashes any material contamination.


Verse 41


However, those who are not able to understand the respective levels of spiritual potency may take shelter of this example. As in the Ganges there are many waves, and some of these waves are larger then other

waves but all of the waves are considered to be sacred, one wave being not considered more holy than another wave, similarly, all types of Vaisnavas, those who are spiritually strong and those who are not

so strong, can be offered equal worship. Considering this perspective in such circumstances that can be accepted as perfect worship.


Here completes the conclusion in this regard.


Verse 42


All Vaisnavas are considered as guru or spiritual master.


Verse 43


Amongst all of the Vaisnavas the initiating guru (diksa-guru) and instructing guru (siksa-guru) are special.


Verse 44


It is proper to offer these two special respect.


Verse 45


Amongst all of the other spiritual masters these two (diksa-guru and siksa-guru) spiritual masters' orders are to be followed.


Verse 46


If one's initiating spiritual master and instructing spiritual master are of small spiritual potency, or in other words, if they do not poses a special power to give spiritual instruction on worship for devotional service, then one may listen from the mouth of other great advanced Vaisnavas and understand the special instructions. However, thereafter, the disciple must go t his spiritual master for his confirmation or instructions.


Verse 47


One should not disobey the order of the spiritual master.


Verse 48


Just as a faithful son may go out for earning money and subsequently brings to his father the wealth gained, later the son may ask for some allowance from the father and whatever he receives form the father he is entitled to spend of his own enjoyment. Similarly, a disciple may hear fome instructions from another advanced Vaisnava but after gaining that good instruction he must bring it and present it to his

won spiritual master. After presenting them, he should hear the same teachings ganga from his spiritual master with appropriate instructions.


Verse 49


If the son earns money but does not give it to the father and instead, directly enjoys the wealth, he is considered to be a fallen son and a sinful person. Similarly a disciple who listens to the words of

other Vaisnavas, even if their instructions are proper and true, but does not reconfirm these teachings with his own spiritual master and instead directly personally accepts these instructions, is considered

a bad disciple and a sinner.


Verse 50


For this reason, in all circumstances all Vaisnava are offered respect like of offers respect to one's spiritual master. However, with body, mind and words one serves one's own spiritual master.


Verse 51


Even if the performance of ones's devotional activities one has disobeyed the spiritual master, still one should not give him up, but should remain faithfully with him, because all authorities say that the shelter of one's own spiritual master is best and perfect (even if another spiritual master is more powerful).


Verse 52


Kindly understand this example: Just as one respects one's father as a guru, his (the father's)

older and younger brothers are also similarly respected, but nonetheless, the father is worthy of the most respect. Not withstanding the above, if the father's guru, even if he is family related, comes,one should double the respect, as he is the spiritual father of the father, or the guru of the guru. He is offered twice

the puja or respect. This behavior if recognized as appropriate by all authorities.


Verse 53


Just as if, during daily life, the brothers (older or younger) of the father criticize him, still one takes shelter of one's father, similarly, one remains under the shelter of one's own spiritual master, even if he is criticized by his older or younger god brothers. Just as one depends upon one's father for one's livelihood, one must depend upon the strength of the spiritual master for advancing in devotional service.


Verse 54


If a father or spiritual master or husband are not possessed of outstanding qualities even then they are always worshipable.


Verse 55


Taking shelter of the above-mentioned persons one may even disagree with those senior to oneself.


Verse 56


In this world, what kind of person is there who can remain alive at the expense of his father's or guru's defamation or disgrace?


Verse 57


Everyone considers that if their spiritual master is very powerful then he himself is powerful but that if his spiritual master is less powerful, then he is, therefore weaker, and according to the attitude

of the spiritual master the disciple gains the same attributes. Those disciples who are intelligent can understand the desires of the spiritual master directly through their intelligence. Other disciples,

two are less intelligent understand by directly hearing instructions from the spiritual master. These activities are being practiced since time immemorial.


Verse 58


Learned Vaisnava authorities say that these instructions are the perfection of religiosity.


Verse 59


If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking Vaisnava regulatative principles then in that case one should in a solitary place, confront him for his rectification using logic and appropriate

conclusions from sadhu, sastra and guru references, but one is not to give him up.


Verse 60


One should not be hesitant or fearful because one is confronting or challenging a spiritual master.

"For it has been prescribed that one must appropriately discipline even a spiritual master who is:

*bewildered about what he should or shouldn't do; *who is inexperienced or ignorant:

*who has deviated from the Krsna conscious path; *or if he is bewildered by false pride."


Verse 61


This statement of the revealed scriptures is applicable at all times and under all circumstances.


Verse 62


The natural behavior of the Vaisnava devotees is to take complete refuge of Lord Sri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, accepting Him as their principal and real shelter. The very life

of the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord is singing the glories or Lord Sri Krsna, describing and expanding the fame of Lord Sri Krsna, and discussing the nectar of His transcendental pastimes.


Verse 63


The authorized course of action is to continue, as before, with one's prescribed devotional service. One may take guidance through or instructions from the Vaisnavas, as all Vaisnavas are considered

guru or "spiritual master," or one may use one's own intelligence, duly considering the relevant instructions from sadhu, sastra and guru. In all cases one should continue in one's devotional service.


Verse 64


However, if the spiritual master: *acts envious towards 'isvarebrantah', that which is connected with the Supreme; *is bewildered regarding the Supreme Personality ofGodhead;*is averse to expanding the fame of Lord Krsna;*personally refuses to accept hearing or chanting about the glorious pastimes of Lord Sri Krsna;*has become totally bewildered, listening to the false praise of ignorant persons and day by day is more materially contaminated and fallen___then the spiritual master must be renounced.


Verse 65


Under those circumstances one should not doubt, "How can I give up my spiritual master?" With a strong desire for achieving spontaneous devotional service and attaining the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, the

Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee accepts the shelter of a spiritual master, if that spiritual master takes on "asuric" qualities or a demoniac mentality then it is one's duty to reject such a demon

"asura" guru and in his place accept a Krsna conscious spiritual master and worship him.


Verse 66


By taking shelter of the strength of the Krsna conscious spiritual master's devotional service the ill effects or contamination of the demoniac previous spiritual master is counteracted and destroyed. These activities are recommended by all Vaisnava authorities as the authorized conclusions of the sastra.


Verse 67


During the pastimes of Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu there have been many practical examples of the above. This concludes the deliberation and final conclusions of sadhu ,sastra on guru on the spiritual master and related matters.

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Dear theist, dandavat pranam,

"I" said:

From your reply it seems you didn’t acknowledge, the verse you quoted doesn’t support the principle you stated.

Your answer:

I disagree. No need to discuss it for days. We disagree that's all.


Just saying that you disagree, doesn’t make the verse 7.2 from Bhagavad-gita an evidence for your belief.

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Dear theist dandavat pranam,

First I must thank you for helping me to learn.

You wrote:

"By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, by the grace of guru one gets Krsna."

A well known saying by Srila Prabhupada. Suo compact & concise in summarizing the whole essence of bhakti-yoga that I call it a sutra.



This “well known saying by Srila Prabhupada” is no sutra at all.

Your idea is that it would summarize the essence of bhakti-yoga,

but according Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta as delineated by Srila Rupa Gosvamin in Bhakti-rasamRta-sindhu, bhakti is defined as such

anyAbhilASitA-zUnyaM jJana-karmAdy-anAvRtam

AnukUlyena kRSNAnuzilanaM bhaktir uttamA (Bhakti-rasamRta-sindhu 1.1.11)

And the essence of bhakti or the svarupa lakshana of bhakti is AnukUlyena kRSNAnuzilanaM – the cultivation of activities (zilanaM) which give Krishna pleasure, or happiness – that which is favorable (AnukUlyena) for … Krishna.

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Take a hint anadi. We disagree and I have no necessity to try to make you see it my way nor do I accept your way, that's that. No big deal. Why persist?


Dear theist dandavat pranam,


This is not good. It sounds quite prejudieced.

One should be open to analize the evidence the "oposed" party is presenting

The point was that your statements were not sustained by proper evidence.:deal:

So, is quite hard to accept them as truths?

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Dear theist dandavat pranam,<?xml:namespace prefix = o />


This is not good. It sounds quite prejudieced.

One should be open to analize the evidence the "oposed" party is presenting

The point was that your statements were not sustained by proper evidence.:deal:

So, is quite hard to accept them as truths?


Proper evidence on the path of bhakti in Gaudiya Vaishnavism comes only from the authorized bona fide representative of the guru parampara. Otherwise we can quote from sastra without end and still dont find the conclusion. Therefore it is said in Srila Prabhupada’s Srimad Bhagavatam (4.8.54, purport):



"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."



Therefore theist's quoting Srila Prabhupada is presenting the ultimate conclusion. Of course vedantists will never agree and instead put forward so many quotes but which will ultimately not please Krishna but imstead will cause disturbance on the path of bhakti, Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101:



pancaratra-vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir

utpatayaiva kalpate


The purport is that to become a devotee one must follow the principles laid down in shruti and smriti. One must follow the codes of the puranas and the pancaratrika-vidhi. One cannot be a pure devotee without following the shruti and smriti, and the shruti and smriti without devotional service under the guidance of a genuine authorized bona fide spiritual master cannot lead one to the perfection of life. SB 7.11.7" If we don't follow accordingly, it is simply a disturbance to society "utpatayaiva kalpate".

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Proper evidence on the path of bhakti in Gaudiya Vaishnavism comes only from the authorized bona fide representative of the guru parampara. ...


Therefore theist's quoting Srila Prabhupada is presenting the ultimate conclusion.


Dear Sucandra,dandavat pranama


according to Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta,"the authorized bona fide representative of the guru parampara" is not the source of evidence .

The source of proper evidence is shastra.

Guru should teach according shastra.


PramANa or evidence is the means to determine the authenticity of an object.

PramAtA yenArthaM pramiNoti tad eva pramANam.

Srimat JIva GosvAmIpAda writes in Sarva-saMvAdinI:


yadyapi pratyakSAnumAna-zabdArSopamANArthApatty-abhAva-sambhavaitihya-ceSTAkhyAni daza pramANAni viditAni,

tathApi bhrama-pramAda-vipralipsA-karaNApATava-doSa-rahita-vacanAtmakaH zabda eva mUla-pramANam


“Generally there are ten types of evidence, namely pratyakSa, anumAna, zabda, ArSa, upamAna, arthApatti, abhAva, sambhava, aitihya, and ceSTA.

zabda, or zruti, however, is accepted as the root evidence because it is free from the four defects of bhrama, pramAda, vipralipsA and karaNApATava."


Read more:http://spirituality.forumup.de/viewtopic.php?t=27&mforum=spirituality

As long as "theist's quoting Srila Prabhupada" is followed by wrong interpretations which he sustains by improper evidence from smriti, I can hardly accept them as the ultimate conclusion.

In this conection see my last posts.



My guru of the heart belongs to the disciplic succession descending from Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Srimati Jahnava Mata through the descendants of Sri Dhananjaya Pandit.


Jiva Goswami explains that taking shelter of the spiritual master is a second sadhu sanga, for the awakening of faith, or a belief in the purport of the scriptures, arises out of an earlier contact with devotees and hearing from them. After such faith has awakened, and one realizes that devotional service is one’s only duty in life, then one takes shelter of a genuine guru and receives instructions about the various devotional practices

(ādau prathame sādhu-sanga-śāstra-śravana-dvārā śraddhā tad-artha-viśvāsah. tatah prathamānantaram dvitīyah sādhu-sango bhajana-rīti-śikSā-nibandhanah || Durgama-sangamanī 1.4.15).

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And what is the source of the sastra if not the authorized representatives of Krsna? Did those books write themselves?


What we call sastra is nothing but the penned realizations of realized souls. Therefore realized souls are not on a lower level than sastra. If this was not the case how could new revealations ever be accepted for the progressive benefit of humankind?

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“Generally there are ten types of evidence, namely pratyakSa, anumAna, zabda, ArSa, upamAna, arthApatti, abhAva, sambhava, aitihya, and ceSTA.

zabda, or zruti, however, is accepted as the root evidence because it is free from the four defects of bhrama, pramAda, vipralipsA and karaNApATava."




And what is the source of the sastra if not the authorized representatives of Krsna? Did those books write themselves?


What we call sastra is nothing but the penned realizations of realized souls. Therefore realized souls are not on a lower level than sastra. If this was not the case how could new revealations ever be accepted for the progressive benefit of humankind?


Everything is simultaneously one and different from itself. This is the basis of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy. In the above quotes given by Anadi concerning the ten types of evidence, and the zabda, or zruti, accepted as the root evidence, the difference between sastra and sadhu is brought into focus. Where Thakur Bhakivinode and Sridhar Maharaja are explaining how the sastras are the words of the sadhus the oneness is being brought into focus. Both aspects must be harmonized. So in and of itself, your objection to Anadis points are illogical and invalid.

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