GBC Never Authorized to Terminate Ritvik System

[Guruvani 0]

One instruction of Srila Prabhupada that is very much conspicuous by it’s absence is his explicit or implicit instruction to the GBC or any of the members that after his passing they had authority to terminate the Ritvik System.

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ISKCON is the Sampradaya of an acharya – Srila Prabhupada.

It was established on his specific authority, design and direction. All the fundamental framework of ISKCON was personally established and authorized by Srila Prabhupada. The GBC, the temple presidents and all the particular institutional aspects of ISKCON were implemented and established on the authority and instruction of Srila Prabhupada.

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The Ritvik system is also one of the systems and integral functions of the GBC authority that Srila Prabhupada established in ISKCON. Practically from the very beginning, the GBC representatives approved and performed initiations of incoming ISKCON devotees. Supervising new devotees, training them and initiating them on behalf of Srila Prabhupada were part of the GBC function. It was one of the most important functions of the GBC, apart from managerial duties and responsibilities.

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In the last days of Srila Prabhupada, he modified the GBC system of approving and performing initiations. Instead of sending the recommendations to the personal secretary of Srila Prabhupada for final approval of initiations, Srila Prabhupada named 11 disciples who would have the authority to give this final approval that had been the responsibility of Srila Prabhupada’s personal secretary.

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Eventually, the personal secretary didn’t even need to present every singe initiate to Srila Prabhupada for personal approval. If the GBC approved the initiation, then the secretary just arranged for Pradyumna prabhu or Nitai das to pick out a name and then the secretary would just enter the name in the book of disciples of Srila Prabhupada. In the later years, Srila Prabhupada was not even involved in the final approval or name choosing.

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The 11 ritviks that Srila Prabhupada appointed all had the same authority as had been previously invested in the personal secretary of Srila Prabhupada. They could arrange for a name and arrange for the name to be written into the book of disciples. If the GBC recommended, then these ritviks were supposed to perform the function that the personal secretary had been doing previously.

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Therefore, Srila Prabhupada directly and specifically established the Ritvik system on his direct instructions. It was a very integral and important process that was personally authorized and implemented by Srila Prabhupada.

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What is conspicuous by its absence is any sort of documented or verifiable evidence that Srila Prabhupada ever gave the GBC the authority or instructions to terminate the ritvik system at some future date.

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Since Srila Prabhupada is the one who instituted and authorized the establishing of the ritvik system, it is only on his authority that the GBC could ever terminate or dismantle the Ritvik system.

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The fact is, Srila Prabhupada never gave the GBC the authority or instruction to terminate the Ritvik system. The GBC had no authority from Srila Prabhupada to terminate the Ritvik system. The GBC had no instructions to terminate the ritvik system under any given scenario.

Srila Prabhupada never instructed to the GBC, that after his passing, they would have authority to stop the Ritvik system.

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None of the GBC members breathed a word to Srila Prabhupada about the matter of terminating the Ritvik system after his passing. The issue was never brought up, because it was well accepted by all the GBC members that the Ritvik system was to be a permanent feature of ISKCON.

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After the passing of Srila Prabhupada, without any authority from Srila Prabhupada, the GBC allowed the 11 Ritviks to terminate the Ritvik system so that they come become zonal acharyas and accept their own disciples based upon zonal power.

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The terminating of the Ritvik system in ISKCON was unauthorized.

The GBC was never given the right or authority from Srila Prabhupada to terminate the Ritvik system.

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Only Srila Prabhupada had the authority to create a ritvik system.

Only Srila Prabhupada had the authority to terminate the ritvik system.

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He never did. The Ritvik system is still authorized.

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[Beggar 0]

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In the later years, Srila Prabhupada was not even involved in the final approval or name choosing.

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All the devotees given hare nama personally by Prabhupada in Boston in July 1971 received names that began with S. Suhotra, Sarmistha, Sudas, Sudevi, Sukada and others. The only non S was Dhristhadyumna. Go figure? The names were picked out of a book by Karandhar and Syamasundar.

[Guest guest]

The names were picked out of a book by Karandhar and Syamasundar.

 

And due to names being choosed by secretaries and other servants, I have heard of mispellings and other misnomers, both before and after this incident. For instance, I was in St. Louis in '76, and a devotee named Pranada went to India and found out in Mayapura that his name was intended to be Pranaba. Srila Prabhupada was present then, and it was corrected, and his name was "henceforeward": Pranaba. I have witnessed other similar accounts over the years. It happens. Especially when you have neophyte secretaries who are giving out devotee names on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani 0]

 

The names were picked out of a book by Karandhar and Syamasundar.

 

And due to names being choosed by secretaries and other servants, I have heard of mispellings and other misnomers, both before and after this incident. For instance, I was in St. Louis in '76, and a devotee named Pranada went to India and found out in Mayapura that his name was intended to be Pranaba. Srila Prabhupada was present then, and it was corrected, and his name was "henceforeward": Pranaba. I have witnessed other similar accounts over the years. It happens. Especially when you have neophyte secretaries who are giving out devotee names on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.

But, part of the problem with these situations is that devotees didn't even know how to pronounce properly these names.

for example:

PrAnada = means life giving

PranADA = means a loud noise

 

Maybe the real problem was that devotees were pronouncing the name wrong and thereby created the issue.

 

There is a devotee names Tirthapada who was being called TirthapADa around Sridhar Maharaja and so Sridhar Maharaja suggested that actually the name should be TirthprAda.

If the devotees has said his name properly as Tirthapada instead of TirthapAda, then Sridhar Maharaja would not have been confused over the name.

 

Whatever happened to ol' Tirthapada?

 

The name Pranada is one of the names given in the Thousand Names of Vishnu, verse 35.

[Beggar 0]

 

Whatever happened to ol' Tirthapada?

 

 

Ol' Tirthapada is a big follower of NM.

There's a Prabhupada disciple by the name of Rajiva Locana. When I first met him in 1972, I asked him, "what's your name?" He said, "now don't laugh, you have to promise not to laugh". I agreed to his proposal. He said, "now don't laugh, my name is RAAji Blochan". Well I almost fell over laughing. Several Prabhus came over and he introduced himself and everyone was rolling on the ground (not in ecstacy). Of course his name was "Rajiv Locan". But remember the Bengali-ization would be Rajib locana and if you had no experience with Indian-Hindu names you would think RAAji Blochan.

[stonehearted 0]

 

Ol' Tirthapada is a big follower of NM.

There's a Prabhupada disciple by the name of Rajiva Locana. When I first met him in 1972, I asked him, "what's your name?" He said, "now don't laugh, you have to promise not to laugh". I agreed to his proposal. He said, "now don't laugh, my name is RAAji Blochan". Well I almost fell over laughing. Several Prabhus came over and he introduced himself and everyone was rolling on the ground (not in ecstacy). Of course his name was "Rajiv Locan". But remember the Bengali-ization would be Rajib locana and if you had no experience with Indian-Hindu names you would think RAAji Blochan.

I remember Rajiblocan, and how funny his name sounded. How deep was our ignorance? His nickname was Raji.

[Guruvani 0]

Here's a good one.............

Vaisya sikha?

 

This is how devotees today still prounounce the name of Vaisheshika

 

VAI SHEI SHIKA

[stonehearted 0]

While we’re discussing devotees’ names, I have a couple of stories. My wife was a shy, quiet 19-year-old girl when she was initiated with the name Satyaki-devi dasi. I’ve always had a hard time understanding how she was named after the commander in chief of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s army. A Bengali friend told me a few years ago that there’s a satyaki mudra in Bharat-natyam—a swan mudra. That works better for me.

We have a friend who was initiated in <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Seattle</st1:place></st1:city> in ’73 or ’74. Apparently Sukadeva lost the letter and couldn’t remember her name, so he said, “Let’s just call you Kamala.” She didn’t let it rest, though, and later bothered Pradyumna about it. He couldn’t find any record of her name, so he suggested, “How about Jagaddhatri?”

And I wasn’t all that stoked about my own name, either. When I heard the name “Babhru,” I knew I would be Bob (which I always thought a goofy name) for the rest of my life. “Bob who?” Or, “Bob, Bob, Bob—Bob, Bob-aroo!” (Think <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Beach </st1></st1:place>Boys, if you don’t get it.)

[gHari 0]

Srila Prabhupada explained the use of the word 'ritvik' in blue. This is not rocket science. There was no ritvik system:

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating AcAryas.

 

TamAla KRSNa: Is that called Rtvik-AcArya?

 

PrabhupAda: Rtvik, yes.

 

SatsvarUpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the...

 

PrabhupAda: He's guru. He's guru.

 

SatsvarUpa: But he does it on your behalf.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes.

That is formality. Because

in my presence

one should not become guru

, so on my behalf, on my order... AmAra AjJAya guru haJA [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.

 

SatsvarUpa: So they may also be considered your disciples.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?

 

TamAla KRSNa: No, he's asking that these Rtvik-AcAryas, they're officiating, giving dIkSA. Their... The people who they give dIkSA to, whose disciple are they?

 

PrabhupAda: They're his disciple.

 

TamAla KRSNa: They're his disciple.

 

PrabhupAda: Who is initiating. He is

granddisciple.

 

SatsvarUpa: Yes.

 

TamAla KRSNa: That's clear.

 

SatsvarUpa: Then we have a question concer...

 

PrabhupAda: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes

disciple of my disciple

. That's it.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada explained the use of the word 'ritvik' in blue. This is not rocket science. There was no ritvik system:

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating AcAryas.

 

TamAla KRSNa: Is that called Rtvik-AcArya?

 

PrabhupAda: Rtvik, yes.

 

SatsvarUpa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the...

 

PrabhupAda: He's guru. He's guru.

 

SatsvarUpa: But he does it on your behalf.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes.

That is formality. Because

in my presence

one should not become guru

, so on my behalf, on my order... AmAra AjJAya guru haJA [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Be actually guru, but by my order.

 

SatsvarUpa: So they may also be considered your disciples.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?

 

TamAla KRSNa: No, he's asking that these Rtvik-AcAryas, they're officiating, giving dIkSA. Their... The people who they give dIkSA to, whose disciple are they?

 

PrabhupAda: They're his disciple.

 

TamAla KRSNa: They're his disciple.

 

PrabhupAda: Who is initiating. He is

granddisciple.

 

SatsvarUpa: Yes.

 

TamAla KRSNa: That's clear.

 

SatsvarUpa: Then we have a question concer...

 

PrabhupAda: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes

disciple of my disciple

. That's it.

 

 

But why bother, nobody thinks of changing towards ritvik within ISKCON - in fact the very opposite is happens - everybody is being told to initiate their own disciples within the movement. However, that people constantly make posts telling, no, ritvik is wrong, now I can prove it, somehow seems to keep their minds occupied with no end, indicating, wait, may be there is something wrong with our present, "guru by vote/appointment policy"? To what only can be replied, dont bother, cool down, just go on with your acarya-appointment program, nobody except God can hold you up. If you still cannot find your peace - well, may be there's some mistake in your study of Srila Prabhupada's teachings.

[Guruvani 0]

Nobody has shown me yet where Srila Prabhupada gave the GBC authority to terminate the ritvik system at an time under any circumstances.

That's the point in this message.

Only Srila Prabhupada can establish the ritvik system and only he can terminate it.

Srila Prabhupada never told the GBC of any situation in the future wherein they would be authorized to dismantle the ritvik system.

We've already argued the other points many times.

Now, I want evidence that the GBC was authorized by Srila Prabhupada to terminate the ritvik system.

Fact is, the GBC was never given authority to terminate the ritvik system.

Srila Prabhupada never told the GBC that after his passing the ritvik system would have to be terminated.

The GBC never had the authority to shut-down the ritvik system.

Srila Prabhupad never gave them that authority.

That is just the plain fact.

[Guruvani 0]

Srila Prabhupada:

Viraha Astaka 1958

2) Your so-called disciple, the jackal named Ananta Vasudeva, disobeyed your final instructions to keep the mission united, and thereby created a scandalous fiasco.

The result of this philosophical deviation is evident to this day as imitative sahajiyas are being worshiped as gurus in your temples.

3) Is there a single temple to be found where your instructions are still being followed? As it is said: "punar musiko bhava"- Everyone has "again become a mouse."

4) The lion's food has been stolen away by the deceptive tricks of the jackal Now caught in Maya's mighty clutches everyone is reduced to wailing and weeping.

[Guruvani 0]

Viraha Astaka

Eight Prayers in Separation From My Spiritual Master

by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

December 195 - translated and published

from the Bengali into English by Dasaratha-suta dasa.

First Octet

The Flood of Krsna Prema

1)O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this anniversary of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

2) "The ocean of mercy was previously held back by a dam,

but Lord Nityananda personally cut a channel in it

and thereby released the outpouring flood

of pure ecstatic love of God. "

( from Locana's dasa's song Nitai Guna mani)

3) Those devotees to whom the responsiblity was given

to continue spreading this flood of love

somehow became overpowered by Maya

and were thus reduced to simply performing

ritualistic Hindu ceremonies

for the benefit of the materialists.

4) Lord Nityananda's inundation of prema was thus completely stopped

by those known as jati-gosai (caste gosvamis)

But then you personally came, O Master

to open wide the floodgates once again.

5) Again you engulfed everyone

in the deluge of pure divine love-

even such a low, wretched, fallen

and sinful soul as myself.

6) On the strength of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's command

you sent all of your servants

as spiritual masters, going from door to door,

just to deliver the fallen souls.

7) The devotees were enthusiastically preaching everywhere-

from the oceans to the Himalaya mountains,

But now that you have gone from our midst

everything today has become very dark.

8)O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this day of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

Second Octet

The Merciful Flood Has Been Stopped

1) Just as Advaita Prabhu had prayed fervently

and thus induced Sri Gauranga to descend,

so did your father, Bhaktivinoda Thakura,

pray for you to incarnate.

2) Due to Bhaktivinoda's eagerness, O Master,

you came and proclaimed to everyone

that India is the most holy land

of the Lord's divine pastimes.

3) "One who has taken birth in this land

of Bharata-bhumi (India) should first

make his own life successful and then work

for the benefit of all other people" (C.C Adi 9.41)

4) This is the most significant message of Lord Caitanya

that you boldly preached everywhere.

But now in your absence, O Master,

everything has fallen into darkness.

5) The overflowing ocean of your compassion

has once again been dammed up.

This makes me feel as if a spear of great misery

has indeed pierced my heart.

6) Without Caitanya Mahaprabhu's message being spread

there is only confusion and upheaval in the movement.

Seeing this situation, all the Vaisnavas are also feeling

overwhelmed with the pangs of your separation.

7) The spirit souls have once again been captured by Maya

and plunged into absolute darkness.

Desperately searching for relief, they are simply perishing

in a fathomless ocean of anxiety.

8)O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this day of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

Third Octet

Practical Chanting and Preaching

1) You instructed everyone you met

to chant the holy name of Lord Krsna.

You showed the example of continually reciting

the maha-mantra into their ears.

2) You empowered everyone with the qualification

to further distribute that holy name

But now, by the influence of Maya,

there is only darkness on all sides.

3) The souls who are truly attached to worshiping the Lord

always sing and dance in joyful sankirtana.

Following in the footsteps of their spiritual master,

they deliver the whole world.

4) But those who have no such qualification perform nirjana bhajana

or so-called confidential worship in a solitary place.

Thus acting whimsically, all of them actually remain absorbed

in personal sense gratification.

5)[As stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam 10,33,30]:

"An ordinary soul should never imitate the activities

of the Supreme Lord, even in his mind."

According to these instructions in devotional service,

the unqualified imitators are ruined.

6) You preached "utility is the principle"-

that is, one should act without attachment

and use anything that is deemed appropriate

in the devotional service of the Lord.

7) In such detached devotional service to Lord Krsna

there would be a temple established in every house

But now just the opposite situation

is apparent everywhere.

8)O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this day of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

Fourth Octet

The Essential Purport Neglected

1) Everything regarding material prosperity as well as mystic perfection

is fully present in your transcendental message:

"Because the residents of Vraja have life,

therefore they engage in preaching work." (Dusta Mana verse)

2) The "resolute intelligence" ("vyavasayatmika buddhi")

explained by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti

[in his commentary to Bhagavad Gita 2.41]

is now spoiled since your disciples have become ensnared

in the bewildering noose of Maya.

3) Those disciples who were irresolute in performing

devotional service according to your instructions

have now divided your mission in many factions.

It appears that the tigress of ambition

for material names and fame

has appeared and personally provoked this upheaval.

4) The essential purport of your message

obviously did not enter their ears.

O where will I get the strength

to perform this hari-nama-sankirtana?

5) To chant the holy name of the Lord

is the explicit command

of my worshipful spiritual master.

I could never honestly neglect that order

6) Your greatest acclaim is that you propagated

the topmost religious culture

Anyone who accepts the holy name from you

becomes spiritually qualified.

7) If all those who attained this qualification

were to go out and make disciples

then the miserable conditioned souls would all be delivered

from this world of birth and death.

8)O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this day of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

Fifth Octet

The Disciple's Empowerment is Lost

1) The greatest mantra of all, consisting of thirty-two letters, is:

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

People who are possessed by gross foolishness refuse to chant it.

2) Your so-called disciple, the jackal named Ananta Vasudeva,

disobeyed your final instructions to keep the mission united,

and thereby created a scandalous fiasco.

The result of this philosophical deviation is evident to this day

as imitative sahajiyas are being worshiped as gurus in your

temples.

3) Is there a single temple to be found

where your instructions are still being followed?

As it is said: "punar musiko bhava"-

Everyone has "again become a mouse."

4) The lion's food has been stolen away

by the deceptive tricks of the jackal

Now caught in Maya's mighty clutches

everyone is reduced to wailing and weeping.

5) O Master! If your are merciful to us one again,

then even though we are trapped here

on the shores of the ocean of death,

we will finally behold a change for the better.

6) Then once again we can blissfully remember

the holy name of Krsna,

and once again we will have firm faith

in your "Vaikuntha messages."

7) Once again you will make us dance

in the pure holy name of Krsna.

thus you will personally dispel

all this confusion caused by Maya.

8)O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this day of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

Sixth Octet

The Preaching Mission is Scattered

1) "Continue dancing, singing and performing sankirtana

in the association of devotees." ( C.C. Adi 7.92)

These words spoken by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

are especially nectarine.

2) If we have complete faith in these

instructions given by you, our spiritual master,

then in the performance of sankirtana

actual love for Krsna will be aroused in us.

3) Without love of God, our tiny intelligence

only becomes entangled in the network of Maya's delusions

Because no one actually attained prema,

now there has been great upheaval in your mission.

4) The whole world has become filled with impersonalists,

and the Vaisnavas have given up

the work of preaching that was entrusted unto them

and have simply gone off to perform solitary worship.

5)The Vaisnava's were famous as "patita pavana" ( deliverers of the

fallen)

but now this title has fallen into disgrace.

Countless numbers of your disciples

have been forced to leave your movement.

6) At such an inauspicious time, O Master,

what can be done to repair the damage that is done?

The beautiful garden that you had so carefully planted

is now parched and withered away.

7) O Master, please awaken some good intelligence

in this insignificant disciple of yours

so that my firm faith in your transcendental message

may increase more and more.

8) O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this day of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

Seventh Octet

Distributing the Pure Devotional Process

1) The most magnanimous incarnation of the Lord is Sri Krsna Caitanya.

Distributing the process of attaining love of God

by chanting the holy names of Krsna,

He thus blessed the entire universe.

2)O Master, you are the personification

of the transcendental message of Lord Caitanya.

You are the distributor of that message

to every town and village.

3)You sent your devotees to preach

in the faraway lands of the Western countries,

and you personally traveled all over India,

even to the South.

4) You preached the pure philosophy of Lord Gauranga

in such a way that intelligent persons could understand.

And you showed such great concern, O Master,

in convincing all you adversaries!

5) Lord Gauranga used many tricks just to engage

the conditioned souls in devotional service,

and you have also understood how to use

all those tricks perfectly well.

6) You understood time, place and circumstance,

and utilized everything as a strategy for preaching.

Although observing your activities with their very eyes.

those who are blind like owls and other creatures of the night

could not see your true purpose.

7)What will the Auls and the Sahajiyas

and the other nonsense groups ever understand?

And what will the sheep-like common people

or dry logicians ever understand?

8) O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this day of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

Eighth Octet

If Only You would Come Again

1)Lord Caitanya's method of devotional service

is not performed in solitude.

You preached this again and again

to your own devotees.

2)Just as the Lord delivered Jagai and Madhai

out of His own causeless mercy,

you explained to everyone that this same method

of preaching work has to go on.

3) The world has now filled up

with many Jagais and Madhais to deliver.

Everyone is anxiously looking down the road

waiting for Caitanya-Nitai to come to their rescue.

4) If, at such a time as this,

you were to personally return to this world

and once more preach about all these things

the way you always used to do…

5)… If there were enthusiastic preaching activities

again taking place in every direction,

then all the people as before

would be stirred up in blissful excitement.

6) Your profound shouting would cause

the demons and atheists to flee,

and your narrations of Lord Caitanya's message

would fill the hearts of the innocent souls.

7) Again the whole world would be

excitedly bustling with good tidings;

but as it is, in your absence now

there is nothing of value anywhere.

8) O Srila Prabhupada! You personally suffer

to see the suffering

of the fallen conditioned souls.

On this day of your separation

I am utterly despondent.

9) O Master! My heart is broken in your absence.

This disciple named Abhay

has hereby revealed only a small token

of his wretched agony of separation.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Nobody has shown me yet where Srila Prabhupada gave the GBC authority to terminate the ritvik system at an time under any circumstances.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada never "gave the GBC authority to terminate the ritvik system at an time under any circumstances" because by definition a rtvik system will automatically end when the diksa guru who is being represented leaves this world. This is indicated by his statement, "Because in my presence one should not become guru". So in his presence he created a rtvik system and by defintion it ended when his vapu presence ended in this world. period.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Srila Prabhupada never "gave the GBC authority to terminate the ritvik system at an time under any circumstances" because by definition a rtvik system will automatically end when the diksa guru who is being represented leaves this world. This is indicated by his statement, "Because in my presence one should not become guru". So in his presence he created a rtvik system and by defintion it ended when his vapu presence ended in this world. period.

that is just your theory, but it is just your opinion because Srila Prabhupada never covered the issue because none of the GBC men dared mention to Srila Prabhupada anything about terminating the ritvik system at his passing because they all knew back then that the idea was that it was an integral element of the ISKCON structure.

 

One word, one statement, one sentence from Srila Prabhupada could have completly shut down the ritvik idea forever.

Srila Prabhupada never uttered the one sentence that authoritatively terminates the ritvik system after his passing.

 

People keep forgeting that "living ritvik system" was itself a departure from "tradition". In the eyes of the "traditionalists" the living ritvik system was a deviation from tradtion, so once you depart the tradition with a ritvik system why arbitrarily draw a line with the passing of the acharya?

 

Srila Prabhupada showed that he did not have to be present or personally approve initiations - that is disciples had the authority to initiate on his behalf, so to draw a line at his passing is just a false assumption that was wrongly made by the 11 ritviks and then imposed upon the GBC.

 

Besides that, when the GBC starts to feel that Srila Prabhupada is "no longer present" in ISKCON, then they are useless anyway.

Srila Prabhupada IS STILL PRESENT IN ISKCON.

[Guruvani 0]

Srila Prabhupada- Viraha Astaka, 4th Octet

 

 

3) Those disciples who were irresolute in performing

devotional service according to your instructions

have now divided your mission in many factions.

It appears that the tigress of ambition

for material names and fame

has appeared and personally provoked this upheaval.

4) The essential purport of your message

obviously did not enter their ears.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

People keep forgeting that "living ritvik system" was itself a departure from "tradition". In the eyes of the "traditionalists" the living ritvik system was a deviation from tradtion, so once you depart the tradition with a ritvik system why arbitrarily draw a line with the passing of the acharya?

 

If Srila Prabhupada would have created a "living ritvik system" which "was itself a departure from "tradition"" then he wouldn't have waited for questions from the disciples. He would have been more clear if he had made such a monumental adjustment. There is just not enough evidence and that is why there is so much contention about this issue.

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada left the GBC as the authority in his will. Thus the authority granted.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Prabhupada left the GBC as the authority in his will. Thus the authority granted.

Even I, think that is an absurd statement.

[Guest guest]

How come during the 11 years Srila Prabhupada carried out his mission, "Rtvik System" was never taught. No lectures, nothing in his books. The only "rtvik" conversations on record were at business meetings with GBC or in letters to gbc members or business secretaries. The only "released" material is a July 9 memo, not composed by Prabhupada, rather a letter from TKG to TPs, making some vague statements on how initiations were to be carried out. In this July 9 memo, there is absoultely no indication about anything to do with any system to be carried out after Srila Prabhupada's departure.

 

The sad thing is that rtvikism has become a philosophy into itself, a revisionist ideology that has no inclination to go our among the worlds craving masses to give them Krsna Consciousness. Rtvikism is simply a device to give false status to those who really want to be with a foundation, but cannot because the foundation's board of directors has decided against them. So they left, now they reinvent a philosophy not at all covered by Srila Prabhupada, a guru system. Thus they disregard Prabhupadas real guru tattwa discussions in Srimad bhagavatam, sri chaitanya charitamrta, nectar of devotion, etc. All in favor of letters to and from and about their greatest enemies, the foundation's board of directors. Which they call shastra, which they interpret as having greater authority than Srila Prabhupadas masterpiece literature.

 

The GBC has authority to make business decisions. All rtvik discussion took place during business meetings or discussions among business representatives. So if GBC decides that rtvik is not part of the philosophy, I agree with them, because Srila Prabhupada does not teach guru systems, rtvikism, or any such things.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Get yer licks in, rtvik discussions dont usually go on for long in forums not ownde by rtvik proponants.

 

Now if we want to discuss how one can connect in transcendental linkage with Srila Prabhupada, this is a different topic altogether. He is never approached thru the medium of voting boards and eccliastic synods who only care about religion, which Lord Krsna tells Arjuna to abandon all varieties of.

[Guest guest]

 

How come during the 11 years Srila Prabhupada carried out his mission, "Rtvik System" was never taught. No lectures, nothing in his books. The only "rtvik" conversations on record were at business meetings with GBC or in letters to gbc members or business secretaries. The only "released" material is a July 9 memo, not composed by Prabhupada, rather a letter from TKG to TPs, making some vague statements on how initiations were to be carried out. In this July 9 memo, there is absoultely no indication about anything to do with any system to be carried out after Srila Prabhupada's departure.

 

The sad thing is that rtvikism has become a philosophy into itself, a revisionist ideology that has no inclination to go our among the worlds craving masses to give them Krsna Consciousness. Rtvikism is simply a device to give false status to those who really want to be with a foundation, but cannot because the foundation's board of directors has decided against them. So they left, now they reinvent a philosophy not at all covered by Srila Prabhupada, a guru system. Thus they disregard Prabhupadas real guru tattwa discussions in Srimad bhagavatam, sri chaitanya charitamrta, nectar of devotion, etc. All in favor of letters to and from and about their greatest enemies, the foundation's board of directors. Which they call shastra, which they interpret as having greater authority than Srila Prabhupadas masterpiece literature.

 

The GBC has authority to make business decisions. All rtvik discussion took place during business meetings or discussions among business representatives. So if GBC decides that rtvik is not part of the philosophy, I agree with them, because Srila Prabhupada does not teach guru systems, rtvikism, or any such things.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Get yer licks in, rtvik discussions dont usually go on for long in forums not ownde by rtvik proponants.

 

Now if we want to discuss how one can connect in transcendental linkage with Srila Prabhupada, this is a different topic altogether. He is never approached thru the medium of voting boards and eccliastic synods who only care about religion, which Lord Krsna tells Arjuna to abandon all varieties of.

 

Neophyte gurus, or let's say kanistha-adikari gurus would have surely also made it within a movement like ISKCON where newcomers have no crips whatsoever about what is an uttama adikari. The only thing why the ritvik debate started just too many "gurus" went back/ re-entered into karmi-life.

What was changed to improve that situation of mass-falldowns? Nothing - the same situation like before, which means that if 30 have fallen down - another 80 will also fall down.

When Prabhupada was asked on tv why we need another religion in US he said, Krishna-consciousness is genuine others not - dont follow their rules. By now we can conclude, present ISKCON is worse than the Catholic Church with ISKCON's too many fallen leaders/sannyasis/gurus/GBCs. In sum the Hare Krishnas failed badly to provide genuine spirituality and become distinguished from pseudo religions. For that kind of spirituality the church is more than enough and gradually the genaral mood of people is like that.

"Totalitarian Hare Krishna cult in US? We dont need! Totalitarian Hare Krishna cult in Europe? We dont need!" The GBC already could crasp that mood and starts to close temples in many places all over Europe.

Many sincere Vaishnavas seem to be happy with this trend - and feel gladly like tradionalists!

Although Lord Caitanya would have surely approved these statements:

 

"God is always God, Guru is always Guru."

(The Science of Self Realisation, chapter 2)

 

"Well if he is bad, how can he become a guru?"

(The Science of Self Realisation, chapter 2)

 

"The pure devotee is always free from the clutches of Maya and her influence."

(S.B. 5.3.14)

 

"There is no possibility that a first class devotee will fall down."

(C.c. Madhya, 22.71)

 

"A spiritual master is always liberated."

(SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 21/6/70)

 

 

The general conviction of present Vaishnavas seems to strictly reject.

[Guruvani 0]

 

How come during the 11 years Srila Prabhupada carried out his mission, "Rtvik System" was never taught. No lectures, nothing in his books.

 

How easy you forget that he taught it by his example of using the ritvik system for several years in ISKCON.

did you miss that lesson?

Prabhupada taught ritvik for several years WITH HIS EXAMPLE.

 

Did you miss his lessons on the power and authority invested in bona fide acharyas?

[Guest guest]

miss the power and authority invested in acaryas. This is real guru tattwa, chaita guru empowering his representative to act on his behalf.

 

As far as rtvik being in operation years before maha samadhi, I never heard that word, and neither did you. Srila Prabhupada initiated me personally, because he was told of my eligibility by the trusted representative who told him. This was not an eccliastic event, I had only been in the temple for four weeks. There was no board of officials who made him initiate anyone based on six months of being in the temple.

 

If one cannot accept the confidentiality between Srila Prabhupada and his trusted disciple who recommended a new initiate, there is no point in this discussion. Because if you or me wrote to Srila Prabhupada, saying that such and such was ready for initiation, he would not initiate based on our realtionship.

 

He never used a rtvik system, because he never taught such a thing. Find me, in his books, where he speaks of any guru system, any official initiations based on rtvik influence or definition of rtvik. And dont give me letters of dubious authenticity, because I used to have a rubber stamp of Srila Prabhupadas signature, and many devotees used to see them around all the time.

 

Better yet, Ill get out now, because this rtvik thing is just a waste of time.

 

Shias believe that Mohammed has successors of equal authority. Sunnis believe that Mohammed is the guru for all time, without anyone being qualified ever to represent allah. GBC v. rtvik is just the same thing, two mundane sect prepared for thousands of years of arguement about guru succession.

 

Srila Prabhupada is successful, therefore, has others who succeed him. Who? you ask. I will not tell you, you must find out who is the authority empowered by Lord Nityananda in the way described by guru-shastra-sadhu.

 

Hare Krsna, pau hana, mahaksadasa

 

So, if someone has a confidential and personal relationship with Srila Prabhupada, they can do this. Not based on a bogus letter from ambitious power brokers from the corporation, not based on the rules committee that think they can bind Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

 

How easy you forget that he taught it by his example of using the ritvik system for several years in ISKCON.

did you miss that lesson?

Prabhupada taught ritvik for several years WITH HIS EXAMPLE.

 

Did you miss his lessons on the power and authority invested in bona fide acharyas?

 

Did you miss all the times he said that his disciples are the next Gurus?

 

Prabhupada said everything is in his books, I sure see the diksa argument, but I don't see any ritvik argument. Or maybe i'm not looking at the indirect meanings of everything.

[Beggar 0]

Dear Guruvani, Thanks from the bottom of my heart for reviving the Rtvik Issue on Audarya Fellowships - Spiritual Discussions. I was actually becoming quite bored. The Rtvik issue really gets the adrenaline going and after reading the back and force posts on this thread I am ready for a full blown road rage incident. I certainly hope that my sponser in Road Rage-aholics Anonymous is not reading this post. (he's an initiated devotee). Anyway tell Erik of dreamland that I had a cool dream last night about the whole Rtvik thing. The whole thing has been cleared up by higher authorities but I am temporarily sworn to secrecy.

Yours Truly,

Mortimer C. Begger III:crazy2: