Sri Guru is Always Manifested

[theist 1]

 

Your title is Is there any part of YES that you do not understand?

Another title could be Paramahamsa received the answer YES in a personal conversation with his guru.

Oh and leaving the possibility that it only pertained to Paramahamsa? Nope, not a chance. he is clearly speaking about a universal principle. You can spin it anyway you want but that would just be because it doesn't fit with something either your mind said or yor guru maybe. You know teachers can have different opinions. I accept Srila Prabhupada's opinion and the meaning is perfectly clear and unambigous. You may accept anothers opinion and I wouldn't try to force you away from that by attempting to change the clear meaning of what your guru said in order to comply what my source has taught. And I really have been long fed up with despictable attempt to do so. Sorry to be so blunt but diplomacy never came easy to me.

 

I have heard it done a million times before. "OH Prabhupada didn't mean it, he just said that because he was talking to hippies." etc.

 

There is no need to try and homogenize everything. There is a difference between harmonize and homogenize.And sometimes there is just a total disagreement on certain points. So be it.

[Guest guest]

Your comments would be irritating if they weren't so amusing.

 

If books are enough to guide us, all these great Acaryas do not need to keep appearing. We've had books since time immemorial.

 

 

The Supersoul appears before us as a liberated devotees, and then he leaves all his teachings and his books to guide us

[Guest guest]

There lies the essence. Those that think Srila Prabhupada's books are enough may simply read his books. Those that believe a physical guru is required will approach such persons for shelter. To each his own.

 

That's why I find distasteful, the insistence of ritviks that nobody approach another guru. It ain't their business telling others (including me) who to approach. That must stop.

 

 

You may accept anothers opinion and I wouldn't try to force you away from that by attempting to change the clear meaning of what your guru said in order to comply what my source has taught. And I really have been long fed up with despictable attempt to do so. Sorry to be so blunt but diplomacy never came easy to me.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

Oh and leaving the possibility that it only pertained to Paramahamsa? Nope, not a chance. he is clearly speaking about a universal principle.

I am not disagreeing that it is universal.

 

There is no need to try and homogenize everything. There is a difference between harmonize and homogenize.And sometimes there is just a total disagreement on certain points. So be it.

Here's a basic example of two dualities that must be harmonized: 1) It's all in Prabhupada's books, and 2) What does he say in those books? It's even an error in logic not to address this. Not to recognize the limitations of our crude language and mechanistic thought patterns is a large oversight that most posters on this forum make. And that is a major reason we are trapped in an endless loop of rehashing the same points over and over. Can you and KB take a break from extreme fundamentalism and respond to this?

[Kulapavana 0]

 

But what has that got to do with all these neophyte devotee that are being passed off as "liberated devotees".

Getting old and growing a beard doesn't automatically qualify one as a liberated soul.

 

 

people like you will eagerly participate in go-puja once a year but refuse to respect Vaishnavas who surrendered their life to the process of devotional service and their guru's mission...

[Guruvani 0]

 

I am not disagreeing that it is universal.

 

Here's a basic example of two dualities that must be harmonized: 1) It's all in Prabhupada's books, and 2) What does he say in those books? It's even an error in logic not to address this. Not to recognize the limitations of our crude language and mechanistic thought patterns is a large oversight that most posters on this forum make. And that is a major reason we are trapped in an endless loop of rehashing the same points over and over. Can you and KB take a break from extreme fundamentalism and respond to this?

 

 

 

These "living" ISKCON gurus spend very little time with the vast majority of their disciples and all these disciples are expected to get thier real sustenance from the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

These "diksha gurus" fly into some city or some country and initiated a bunch of devotees and then go away leaving these disciples with the books of Srila Prabhupada as their real foundation for enrichment.

 

So, who is really the guru?

The acharya who's books everyone is getting real knowledge from, or some official guru that one sees for a few minutes each year?

 

The day that these "diksha gurus" replaced Srila Prabhupada's books as the foundation of ISCKON is the day that ISKCON died.

[Guruvani 0]

 

people like you will eagerly participate in go-puja once a year but refuse to respect Vaishnavas who surrendered their life to the process of devotional service and their guru's mission...

 

that's a mighty nice way to refer to ecclesiatical career gurus who can't accomplish anything except loitering around ISKCON in a chronic case of institutional over-dependence.

 

Tripurari Maharaja and Jagat Guru Maharaja are the only two disciples of Srila Prabhupada that I know of that have shown that they can accomplish anything on their own merit without using ISKCON as a crutch.

 

I have a lot of respect and appreciationg for devotees like them.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

The day that these "diksha gurus" replaced Srila Prabhupada's books as the foundation of ISCKON is the day that ISKCON died.

If someone says that he has reached that standard, and that there is nothing further to be realized, we offer our obeisances to him from far away. We are not worshipers of that. If one thinks that he is finished, that he has attained perfection — we hate it! Even an acharya should consider that he is a student, and not a finished professor who knows everything. One should always think of himself as a bona fide student. We have come to realize the Infinite, not a finite thing. So, this fight between finite and Infinite knowledge will continue always. Srila Sridhar Maharaja

Maybe the real problem is they think that there is "nothing further to be realized". Maybe they think that they have "attained perfection". Sridhar Maharaja says further:

Should we think, "What I have understood is absolute." No! We have not finished with knowledge. Still, we must know. Brahma himself says, "I am fully deceived by your power, Master. I am nowhere." Anyone who has come in connection with the infinite cannot but say this: "I am nothing." That should be the salient point.

Here's the real answer Guruvani, the whole thing, right before us. But "we will have to dive deep into reality, as we give up the external covers, and we experience what may be considered as death in the external world, -die to live- we shall enter into the inner side more and more. (Subjective Evolution of Consciouness).

[Guruvani 0]

Look, these ISKCON gurus fly around the world initiating devotees officially and then leaving them to senior devotees and the books of Srila Prabhupada for their development.

 

If it looks like a ritvik, walks like a ritvik and quacks like a ritvik, then it must be a ritvik.

[Guest guest]

 

Look, these ISKCON gurus fly around the world initiating devotees officially and then leaving them to senior devotees and the books of Srila Prabhupada for their development.

 

If it looks like a ritvik, walks like a ritvik and quacks like a ritvik, then it must be a ritvik.

No speakie rtvik senor.

[Guest guest]

 

No speakie rtvik senor.

Time to drive them No speakie rtvik dudes out of Dodge, the way I see it.

May we could have a Confederation of Rtvik Temples. Hell, I wonder what the Union and their GBC would do?

[Guest guest]

 

But what has that got to do with all these neophyte devotee that are being passed off as "liberated devotees".

Getting old and growing a beard doesn't automatically qualify one as a liberated soul.

 

The Supersoul appears before us as a liberated devotees, and then he leaves all his teachings and his books to guide us.

 

Srila Prabhupada is that pure devotee that was foretold to by Mahaprabhu to take Krishna bhakti all over the world, and Bhaktivinode anticipated that.

 

Now, the Supersoul has come as the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada and given the world the light of the Bhagavat.

 

Nobody disputes that. Yet at the same time so many could not catch the light of the Bhagavat and the advice of Srila Prabhupad and the advice of Srila Sridhara Maharaj. Book knowledge can be very open to interpretation and can become just another heavy burden as Srila Bhaktivinode has stated if we are not God realized, and I've heard many in these forums contesting, doubting, challenging, arguing over, and generally not understanding the conclusions given in the Bhagavat. It's kali yuga folks.

Without the grace of guru we will continue to flounder in the dark.

 

om ajnana timirandhasya jnananjana salakaya caksur-unmilitam yena tasmai sri-guruve namah

 

If everyone is so enlightened by the books how come there is so much confusion and controversy.

That is why Srila Prabhupad advised his disciples to go to the person of Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhara Maharaj for further and deeper understanding of what is in those books, many discovered that advice and went further, taking shelter of Him as a disciple and now they are following a natural progressive continuity of instruction. Thru a divine trinity of acinta-abheda-bhed gurus.

The currant is all the same, on the same river, gently taking us to the same ocean, the same goal as all the previous acharyas also, these issues are not even questionable within that currant.

Life is nice when we have more than our own mind to guide us.

 

It's simple go to the higher vaisnavas than one self, do some service at their feet and all the answers along with inner fullfillment, self satisfaction and a sweeter taste will grace the soul. Inspiring more perpetual seva which is really what we all need.

 

And I'm sure we'd all have to agree with that now, wouldn't we?

 

Dayal Nitai

let us all find what we came for.

[Guest guest]

dayal Nitai dayal Nitai dayal Nitai dayal Nitai dayal Nitai dayal Nitai dayal Nitai dayal Nitai!

Nitai Gaura Hari bol Nitai Gaura Hari bol Nitai Gaura Hari bol!

Mahaprabhu Gauanga Sundar

Caitanya ! Caitanya

[Guruvani 0]

 

Nobody disputes that. Yet at the same time so many could not catch the light of the Bhagavat and the advice of Srila Prabhupad and the advice of Srila Sridhara Maharaj. Book knowledge can be very open to interpretation and can become just another heavy burden as Srila Bhaktivinode has stated if we are not God realized, and I've heard many in these forums contesting, doubting, challenging, arguing over, and generally not understanding the conclusions given in the Bhagavat. It's kali yuga folks.

Without the grace of guru we will continue to flounder in the dark.

 

om ajnana timirandhasya jnananjana salakaya caksur-unmilitam yena tasmai sri-guruve namah

 

If everyone is so enlightened by the books how come there is so much confusion and controversy.

So, you are so saying that a living guru can explain the Bhagavat and the books in ways and with words that are not found in the books?

 

The Bhaktivedanta purports are the explanation.

 

I just don't see that any explanation of the explanation is necessary or very reliable.

 

the books are not really open for interpreation, as they are self-explanatory.

 

to say that some guru can explain something that is not already explained in shastra seems to conflict with the fact that what the sadhu says has to be there in the sastra.

 

If it is not in shastra, then what can the sadhu tell us that is genuine?

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

So, you are so saying that a living guru can explain the Bhagavat and the books in ways and with words that are not found in the books?

 

The Bhaktivedanta purports are the explanation.

 

I just don't see that any explanation of the explanation is necessary or very reliable.

 

the books are not really open for interpreation, as they are self-explanatory.

 

to say that some guru can explain something that is not already explained in shastra seems to conflict with the fact that what the sadhu says has to be there in the sastra.

 

If it is not in shastra, then what can the sadhu tell us that is genuine?

So going to hear from Sridhar Maharaja was a bogus thing after all? I know that you don't believe that. Then how could you possibly write this absurd post? One important point that Srila Sridhar Maharaja told us was the sastra or books, "are the recorded words of the sadhu". He also explained how the sastra is passive and the sadhu is active. You can't ask the sastra if you have a hard time understanding a verse or a point made in a purport or a commentary (tika). Also if the sadhu is upset with our behavior then he may give us a good slap. After all we are told that "everything is a person" not a book. The books are recorded sound vibrations thats why hearing is so important. In old ISKCON we didn't sit with a copy of Krsna Book and read individually at evening hot milk and bananas. Some devotee controlled his senses, waiting for his own prasadam and read the Krsna Book out loud so we could hear it. And we all knew that although we could hear Srila Prabhupada's tapes and read or hear his books, there was going to be some special magic when he came to our temple and gave class. I don't ever remember anyone in those days denying it. Srila Sridhar Maharja told us that it is very difficult to understand Siva tattva, dhama tattva and guru tattva. Yes it is very difficult to understand.

[Nrsinghadev 0]

 

So, you are so saying that a living guru can explain the Bhagavat and the books in ways and with words that are not found in the books?

 

The Bhaktivedanta purports are the explanation.

 

I just don't see that any explanation of the explanation is necessary or very reliable.

 

the books are not really open for interpreation, as they are self-explanatory.

 

to say that some guru can explain something that is not already explained in shastra seems to conflict with the fact that what the sadhu says has to be there in the sastra.

 

If it is not in shastra, then what can the sadhu tell us that is genuine?

 

Hare Krishna,

 

forgive me for interfering prabhu but with all due respect, despite the immensely helpful, huge array of books and commentaries Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has written they are still not all-in-all as you deem to label them. Why? Because it is simply not possible for anyone, (not even Prabhupada) to answer everyone's personal questions through a series of books and commentaries. If it was all so clear then why did he still have to write so many letters to his disciples all over the world and personally visit to direct/correct and instruct the devotees? The books were there after all. In all honesty ask yourself how many times did it raise another or more questions than got answered after reading a purport? Books are a huge help and can get you there to a certain extent, but not all the way. One has to surrender. Surrender to sri guru is an intrinsical part of the path of Bhakti.

 

All the bonafide gurus from the Gaudiya Vaisnava line have all (none excluded) in turn taken shelter of a spiritual master who instructed them on the written matter orally or in other words while physically present.

None of them surrendered to sri guru in book form, they had all taken initiation and instructions directly from a guru who was physically present at that time. That is the bonafide process, that is also stated by Prabhupada soooo many times in his purports, but unfortunately it's meaning can be easily twisted up-side-down to indicate that the reading of the books of the bonafide spiritual master is that association, that it is on the same level of association as direct association with the bonafide spiritual master, or in other words that it is equal to receiving direct instructions from a bonafide spiritual master. That after surrendering and receiving the mantras orally the connection is eternally established, that is another thing.

 

Actually Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada's surrender to his guru serves as a perfect example. Their physical meeting could have been brief, it may even have been minutes, but something happened at that very moment that made him surrender to Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, and it weren't his writings. It were the words directly received from the mouth of a realized soul. It is this speaker, who is the link between the written and the recipient which is the cause of surrender. Also, physical presence, though not all that important, obviously does something, otherwise why else would they say that the mere presence of a pure devotee causes one to spontaneously start chanting(CC Madhya-Lila 15-74)?

 

So prabhu, perhaps it's time to look up from your books and step outside of the ISKCON box for a moment and realize that there are other bonafide gurus out there, even right now during this tiresome debate, who are preaching Krishna consciousness.

Now they can put that same shastra and elucidate it from their realized angle, they are there to help you, but unfortunately you take it that they are simply there to take away the light of Prabhupada. So take the bold step outside of the books for a change and approach one such guru with questions, and you may be surprised to find out that their help and realized elucidations are really not as insignificant as you had first thought they would be.

 

Haribol!

[theist 1]

 

I am not disagreeing that it is universal.

 

Here's a basic example of two dualities that must be harmonized: 1) It's all in Prabhupada's books, and 2) What does he say in those books? It's even an error in logic not to address this. Not to recognize the limitations of our crude language and mechanistic thought patterns is a large oversight that most posters on this forum make. And that is a major reason we are trapped in an endless loop of rehashing the same points over and over. Can you and KB take a break from extreme fundamentalism and respond to this?

 

Well perhaps I am not understanding you. For that I apolgize. I am now an extreme fundementalist? Most would consider me a heretic.

 

First of all I never said it is all in the books of Srila Prabhupada or anyone else including the whole canon of Vedic literatures. The subject is unlimited. I would say however that what is in Srila Prabhupada's books is enough to guide one to full love of God and take one into Vrndavan-lila.

 

Now you say you want to talk about what is in those books. Well that is a rather large subject so you will need to be more specific.

 

My simple view on this topic of Guru I have stated a million times. Guru can come in human form, in book form, from within as Supersoul, from the more advanced but not yet perfect elder Godbrother or sister. My point is that no matter which form guru comes to us that it must be Supersoul that we hear for He is the true guru.

 

Now He may come to you through/as this acarya or that, still embodied or remaining in his commentaries or primarily through your heart. Krsna is self revealing and He can reveal Himself in anyway He wants. He may direct one soul to guru A and another to guru B another to Prabhupada's books (or some other acarya's books), to a qualified disciple of a past acarya. I see no restrictions that all these people from various camps seem to see.

 

According to our nature time place circumstance level of sincere desire and who knows what other factors the Lord will direct accordingly. The main thing is to know that it is the Lord directing you to his representative and not your mind or some social pressure etc.

 

That in a nutshell is my take on it and if that makes me an "extreme fundementalist" well, so be it.

 

Maybe you could make this statement more clear to me and I will discuss whatever it is.

 

"Here's a basic example of two dualities that must be harmonized: 1) It's all in Prabhupada's books, and 2) What does he say in those books? It's even an error in logic not to address this."

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

That in a nutshell is my take on it and if that makes me an "extreme fundementalist" well, so be it.

You've basically explained your position in your post, so you are definitely not an extreme fundamentalist". Sorry that I jumped to such a conclusion.

Maybe you could make this statement more clear to me and I will discuss whatever it is.

"Here's a basic example of two dualities that must be harmonized: 1) It's all in Prabhupada's books, and 2) What does he say in those books? It's even an error in logic not to address this."

I think this fairly straight forward. If someone takes the postion that Srila Prabhupada is non-different than his books but ignores major themes running through those books then they are at least making an error in sound thinking. For instance our friend Guruvani seems to belittle the concept of sadhu sanga which is certainly a major theme in the Gaudiya siddhanta coming through Srila Prabhupada from his guru varga. You can't ignore a major point just to make your point. You always have to look at both sides or aspects. And if we look IN Srila Prabhupada's books we will find ALL aspects perfectly harmonized.

My simple view on this topic of Guru I have stated a million times. Guru can come in human form, in book form, from within as Supersoul, from the more advanced but not yet perfect elder Godbrother or sister. My point is that no matter which form guru comes to us that it must be Supersoul that we hear for He is the true guru.

I essentially agree with this point although I would say that a higher concept of guru would be to see the Supersoul as Lord Nityananda and then to at least accept that the guru is seen as Krsna's eternal consort in the highest rasa.

[Guest guest]

 

So, you are so saying that a living guru can explain the Bhagavat and the books in ways and with words that are not found in the books?

 

The Bhaktivedanta purports are the explanation.

 

I just don't see that any explanation of the explanation is necessary or very reliable.

 

the books are not really open for interpreation, as they are self-explanatory.

 

to say that some guru can explain something that is not already explained in shastra seems to conflict with the fact that what the sadhu says has to be there in the sastra.

 

If it is not in shastra, then what can the sadhu tell us that is genuine?

 

KB methinks you just love playing the devils advocat to get up devotees noses not nessacarily to draw out higher synthesis.

 

It's difficult following your inconsistent yet overly confident line of thought as if you are always speaking from a position of authority and it's probably futile.

But here i go again hook, line and sinker.

 

Actually I've heard Srila Sridhara Maharaj say, but i havent got the reference because it hasn't been printed like so many of his discourses, that the suddha bhaktas can and always are shedding new light on the scriptures. Like you never heard Radha dasyam drawn from Gita or Gayatri prior to Srila Guru Maharaj's commentary into both, but when Srila Prabupad heard it he stated "Yes how could it be any other way?"

 

The vision of a Maha Bhagavat now is no different to those who walked here 5 or 50,000 years ago except it's uniquely individual. Divinity doesn't remain in one static form forever, those pastimes then are no doubt dynamic and glorious, but what about what the Lord and his entourage are doing for the rest eternity.

Do you think the Gita stopped when the war was over? Do you think the pandavas stopped their pastimes when they left this world? Do you think it is not possible to enter the sankirtan party of Mahaprabhu right now and have a different perspective of the Lord than Sanatan Goswami or Srila Rupa or Ramananda raya, what of the Sri Brhat Bhagavatamrtm an account of divinity never before seen in scripture up untill that time 500 years ago,and how about Srila Bhaktivinode's vision in Navadwip mahatmya, but will the traditional Hindhus accept this as shastra, I doubt it, but for me personally as an aspiring Gaudiya vaisnava it is more convincing than some Upanishads and even the Vedas. And if this is possible for one jiva what to speak of every other jiva's perspective that reaches pure love of God!

 

Of course they may not be empowered the same way as Sanatan Goswami or they may not be as eloquent in their expression as Bhaktivinode but as they enter that nitya lila their perception will be according to their position of service, and the expression of that is as wonderful as all the other uncountable continual living revelations of God and his pastimes. Or do you think divinity is expressed the same from every soul that experiences a dharsan with divinity.

We might have a couple of accounts of Mahaprabhu dancing at Ratha Yatra as related by Srila Krsna das Kaviraj or Vrndavan Das Thakur but what about the other million devotees that were there, what is their account? what if Srila Sridhara Maharaj and Srila Prabhupad were there, there's every chance they were.

 

What of the difference of Sukadev and Vyasadev or Narada muni's perspective.

So this isn't reinventing shastra, all that is given is worshipable as it is from whom it springs, but just that there are so many more wonderful enlightened devotees that can give everfresh, evernew light to what already is revealed. because the limitation of speech in this world can only express something in a moment from one angle unless like Mahaprabhu's explanation of atmarama where He gave 61 different angles of vision. Krsna is always multi- faceted , multi- dimentional and multi- approachable.

[theist 1]

 

You've basically explained your position in your post, so you are definitely not an extreme fundamentalist". Sorry that I jumped to such a conclusion.

No problem.

I think this fairly straight forward. If someone takes the postion that Srila Prabhupada is non-different than his books but ignores major themes running through those books then they are at least making an error in sound thinking. For instance our friend Guruvani seems to belittle the concept of sadhu sanga which is certainly a major theme in the Gaudiya siddhanta coming through Srila Prabhupada from his guru varga. You can't ignore a major point just to make your point. You always have to look at both sides or aspects. And if we look IN Srila Prabhupada's books we will find ALL aspects perfectly harmonized.

Ok now I understand you. Yes to ignore the instruction contained within his teachings is to ignore him making the so-called appreciation of him in his instructions a joke.

I am not sure what Guruvani's feelings are on sadhu sanga. I have trouble thinking he could be against the concept. It could be who he recognizes as sadhu may not be who someone else recognizes as sadhu. In which case devotees simply have to allow others their freedom of choice. We all have the God-given right to be wrong.

An important point that I can never seem to get across very well is reading Srila prabhupada's teachings IS sadhu sanga and every much as valid as my body sitting in the same room with his vapuh. I have often heard that those who choose to receive their primary instruction in devotional life from Srila Prabhupada's books are somehow rejecting sadhu sanga when in fact they are embracing it in vani form.

I essentially agree with this point

although I would say that a higher concept of guru would be to see the Supersoul as Lord Nityananda and then to at least accept that the guru is seen as Krsna's eternal consort in the highest rasa.

Yes what you say of Lord Nityananda would be a higher realization.

 

As to the last point of accepting guru as Krsna's eternal consort in the highest rasa I don't know what that means but if I gain sincerity someday Supersoul/Lord Nityananda may give me a glimpse.

 

I am glad we now have an understanding.

pranams and Hare Krsna

[Guruvani 0]

 

KB methinks you just love playing the devils advocat to get up devotees noses not nessacarily to draw out higher synthesis.

 

It's difficult following your inconsistent yet overly confident line of thought as if you are always speaking from a position of authority and it's probably futile.

But here i go again hook, line and sinker.

 

Actually I've heard Srila Sridhara Maharaj say, but i havent got the reference because it hasn't been printed like so many of his discourses, that the suddha bhaktas can and always are shedding new light on the scriptures. Like you never heard Radha dasyam drawn from Gita or Gayatri prior to Srila Guru Maharaj's commentary into both, but when Srila Prabupad heard it he stated "Yes how could it be any other way?"

That is some mighty high conceptual idea there and I am not here to make any argument against bringing out madhurya-rasa on the battlefield of Kurukeshetra, but Srila Prabhupada's instructions were very straight forward and consistent to not add or subtract anythng from what he gave but to just present what he has given in the exact same words.

 

So, all that is fine and good for such elevated souls as Sridhar Maharaja, but I still don't see how that applies to the vast majority of sannyasis and gurus running around the world now.

These are all mid-level sadhakas at best and I don't see that they have any right or authority to go "shedding new light" on what Srila Prabhupada has given.

Shining a flashlght on the Sun is meaningless.

 

We can spend thousands of liifetimes simply trying to absorb a particle of what Srila Prabhupada has given.

There is no need already for some further explanation, some deeper insight.

 

We haven't even digested the ABC's yet, but we want to jump into doctorate level theology.

 

Srila Prabhupada's standard was "don't add, don't subtract - just tell exactly the way you heard it from your spiritual master".

 

Srila Prabhupada saw Ramananda Raya serving Mahaprabhu in the same way as Subal Sakha serves Krishna, so Srila Prabhupada also offered his own unique perspective on things and I have to admit that Srila Prabhupada is #1 in my book.

[Beggar 0]

EDITORIAL January 10, 1999 VNN2820

The Golden Age Of The Sankirtan Movement

<hr> BY SWAMI B.G. NARASINGHA

EDITORIAL, Jan 10 (VNN) — The Golden Age of the Sankirtan Movement:

Is Srila Prabhupada the Acharya for the Golden Age?

In a manuscript entitled Srila Prabhupada, The Founder Acharya of the Golden Age, Part One, presumably written by an ISKCON member, it is consistently emphasized that "ISKCON is the Golden Age predicted by Sri Caitanya, and Srila Prabhupada is the Acharya for the Golden Age." Furthermore, the oft-quoted phrase, "For ten thousand years my books will guide the world," is repeated. Are we to regard such statements as authoritative for all Vaishnavas, or could the author have been carried away by his own sentiments?

Indeed, the author was carried away by sentimentality. In the manuscript of reference, many statements are out of context, or rather statements are made with the bias of ami-guru jagatguru: my Guru is Jagatguru. Such statements have no universal application, however well intended their author.

In any event, the phrase attributed to Srila Prabhupada, "For ten thousand years my books will guide the world," is actually not verifiable. He might and he might not have said it. Obviously, some devotees think that he did, otherwise they would not quote it. But it is not mentioned in any of the main writings, books, lectures, letters, room conversations, morning walks and so forth which have been recorded and preserved in the archives. Therefore, we do not accept such hearsay as an absolute or authoritative statement. (There are 484 references by Srila Prabhupada in VedaBase to "my books." None of them includes the famous quote about the 10,000 years, even remotely. In the Lilamrta we find the quote. Satsvarupa Maharaja writes: "One day in the car he had said, 'My books will be the lawbooks for human society for the next ten thousand years.'" It is not mentioned where Srila Prabhupada said this, or when, or who was present.)

Nevertheless, let us consider the possible truth of the statement, for surely it has its validity in transcendental arrangements. What were Srila Prabhupada's books in the first place? Were his books his own creation, or were they something else? Srila Prabhupada's books were for the most part translations of, and commentary on the already existing books written by such empowered personalities as Srila Vyasadeva, Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, and Srila Rupa Goswami.

Srila Prabhupada did not take credit for his own writing, but rather took pains repeatedly to proclaim that he was following in the footsteps of the previous Acharyas. In fact, the Bhaktivedanta purports are so much in line with the purports of previous Acharyas that, in many cases, one could say they are translations of those of previous Acharyas. Indeed they are, but one would never know it unless one took the trouble to examine the texts of the previous Acharyas. (In a recorded room conversation, Feb 26, 1973 Srila Prabhupäda says: "They are not my books. I am simply translating.")

The intimate relation between the Bhaktivedanta purports and those of the previous Acharyas is the true glory of Srila Prabhupada. He did not add anything or take anything away; he simply repeated the words of previous Acharyas. Therefore, how could the previous Acharyas be any less important? We should remember that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that anyone who does not recognize his 'Swami' is a prostitute. Mahaprabhu made this statement as an admonishment to Vallabha Acharya, who failed to recognize the importance of Sridhar Swami, the original commentator on Srimad Bhagavatam.

Srila Vyasadeva was directly empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the mature product of the samadhi of Vyasadeva was Srimad Bhagavatam. We find also that Srila Rupa Goswami was directly empowered by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to distribute bhakti-rasa throughout the world, and he was specifically instructed to write books on the science of Krishna consciousness. Actually, it is Srila Rupa Goswami who heads our sampradaya.

sri-caitanya-mano-bhistam sthapitam yena bhu-tale

svayam rupah kada mahyam dadati sva-padantikam

"When will Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada, who has established within this material world the mission to fulfill the desire of Sri Caitanyadeva, give me shelter under his lotus feet." (Bhaktivinode Thakura)

Srila Rupa Goswami established the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in this world, and thus it is he (Sri Rupa) who is the actual Acharya for the period of the Golden Age. Hence, all members of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sankirtan movement are called 'rupanugas', the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami.

mahaprabhu sri-caitanya, radha krsna nahe anya

rupanuga-janera-jivana

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Who is the undivided form of Sri Sri Radha Krsna, is very dear to the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami."

The test of a genuine disciple lies in how well he has understood the purpose of the spiritual master. It is surprising, even alarming, that some devotees ignore that the goal of being a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is to become a rupanuga. This is confirmed in the Bhaktivedanta purport to Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila, 19.132) as follows:

"That was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's opinion, and he specifically told his disciples to write books. He actually preferred to publish books rather than establish temples. Temple construction is meant for the general populace and neophyte devotees, but the business of advanced and empowered devotees is to write books, publish them and distribute them widely. According to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, distributing literature is like playing on a great mrdanga. Consequently we always request members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to publish as many books as possible and distribute them widely throughout the world. By thus following in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Goswami, one can become a 'rupanuga' devotee."

The Six Goswamis (headed by Sri Rupa) scrutinizingly studied all the revealed scriptures with the aim of establishing eternal religious principles for the benefit of all human beings. Srinivasa Acharya establishes this conclusion, as follows:

nana-sastra-vicaranaika-nipunau sad-dharma-samsthapakau

lokanam hita-karinau tri-bhuvane manyau saranyakarau

radha-krsna-padaravinda-bhajananandena mattalikau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

"I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Six Goswamis, who are very expert in scrutinizingly studying all the revealed scriptures with the aim of establishing eternal religious principles for the benefit of all human beings. Thus they are honored all over the three worlds, and they are worth taking shelter of because they are absorbed in the mood of the gopis and are engaged in the transcendental loving service of Radha and Krsna." (Sad Goswami-astakam, text 2)

Therefore it must be concluded that the books of the Six Goswamis are indeed intended to 'guide the world.' Srila Prabhupada's translations and commentary on them must also be of the same quality - 'my books will guide the world.'

A similar position is held by Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, in that he was empowered to write the Caitanya-caritamrta.

more ajna karila sabe karuna kariya

tan-sabara bole likhi nirlajja ha-iya

"By their mercy, all these devotees ordered me to write of the last pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Because of their order only, although I am shameless, I have attempted to write this Caitanya-caritamrta." (CC. Adi-lila, 8.72)

In the Caitanya-caritamrta we also find mention that Vridnavana dasa Thakur was the Vyasadeva of Caitanya-lila, and therefore no intelligent devotee could possibly dismiss the writings of Vrindavana dasa Thakura as nonessential. Actually, without being empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, no one can write transcendental literature. And the fact is that the Gaudiya-sampradaya has thousands of such literatures, written by hundreds of empowered personalities. It is the super excellent characteristic of the Gaudiya-sampradaya that it has the greatest collection of transcendental literatures the world has ever known. All such literatures are meant to 'guide the world.'

kali-kalera dharma krsna-nama-sankirtan

krsna-sakti vina nahe tara pravartana

"The fundamental religious system in the age of Kali is chanting of the Holy Name of Krsna. Unless empowered by Krsna, one cannot propagate the sankirtan movement." (CC. Antya-lila, 7.11)

It is a most glaring defect in certain sections of contemporary Vaishnava society that some devotees want to replace Srila Rupa Goswami, who was appointed as the Acharya of our sampradaya by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, with Srila Prabhupada. Discounting the contribution of all Acharyas and missions since the time of Sri Caitanya, some persons declare that ISKCON marks the beginning of the Golden Age. It is a foolish proposal and Srila Prabhupada would certainly not sanction such inappropriate conclusions.

It is a fact that during Srila Prabhupada's lifetime, ISKCON (as a united preaching effort) did perform wonderful service to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sankirtan movement. This is the eternal credit of all those souls who participated. Yet pride seems to have been the greatest enemy of those souls who once served the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada, and who once received the blessings of Mahaprabhu on their humble heads. It is truly unfortunate that, in the two decades since the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada, some proud and arrogant disciples have brought about more disgrace to Srila Prabhupada, to ISKCON, and to the Gaudiya-sampradaya than fell upon the whole of Vaishnavism during the past 5,000 years. It is sad, it is unfortunate, but it is true. And all in the name of ISKCON and its Founder Acharya! .. If the stubborn insist that ISKCON is the Golden Age then the dismal conclusion would hence be that the present day marks the end of Kali Yuga and we should be expecting the Kalki Avatar in the year 2000 (Y2K)!

There is indeed a Golden Age within the age of Kali Yuga, but that age began with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the advent of His sankirtan movement, and not with the forming of any institution in modern times. There is no monopoly on the sankirtan movement by any institution; the parampara itself retains all rights. Whosoever takes up the sankirtan movement will prosper spiritually, and whosoever deviates from the principles of pure devotion will reap a harvest of mixed results.

We find in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana the mention of a ten thousand year period in which Vaishnavism and the cult of Sri Caitanya will flourish in the world. Afterwards, darkness and ignorance will consume the world.

In the Brahma-vaivarta Purana the Supreme Personality of Godhead, while speaking to Mother Ganges, describes the dawn of the Golden Age by first mentioning those who worship the Lord by mantra. This reference to those who chant mantras as the central focus of their worship indicates Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhvaite Brahmins.

man-mantropasakasparsad

bhasmibhutani tatksanat

bhavisyamti darsanacca

snanadeva hi jahnavi

"Thereafter by the sight and touch of those who worship me by my mantra, all those sins will be burnt." (Text 51)

Next, the Brahma-vaivarta Purana directly indicates the advent of the Golden Age inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu with the performance of hari-nama-sankirtan (the chanting holy name) and the recitation of Srimad Bhagavatam.

harernamani yatraiva

puranani bhavamti hi

tatra gatva savadhanam

abhih sarddham ca srosyasi

"There will be chanting of the name of Hari and reading of the [bhagavata] Purana. Reaching such a place, attentively hear." (Text 52)

It is thoroughly indicated that even the most sinful persons will become Vaishnavas by the chanting of the holy names, and due to the presence of such purified Vaishnavas the whole planet will become a place of pilgrimage.

tathapi vaisnava loke

papani papinamapi

prthivyam yani tirthani

punyanyapi ca jahnavi

"O Ganges, the whole planet will become a pilgrimage site by the presence of Vaisnavas, even though they had been sinful." (Text 55)

Such a blissful condition is then predicted to last ten thousand years.

kaler dasa-sahasrani

madbhaktah samti bhu-tale

ekavarna bhavisyamti

madbhaktesu gatesu ca

"For 10,000 years of Kali-yuga, such devotees of mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of my devotees there will only be one varna [outcaste]." (Text 59)

madbhaktasunya prthivi

kaligrasta bhavisyati

etasminnamtare tatra

krsnadehadvinirgatah

"Devoid of My devotees, the earth will be shackled by Kali. Saying this, Krsna departed." (Text 60)

Srila Prabhupada mentioned this same concept of the ten thousand year-period of the Golden Age in his Bhagavatam commentary (Bhaktivedanta purports) canto 8, chapter 5, text 23, as follows:

"When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared He ushered in the era for this sankirtan movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtan movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of Kali-yuga will be deliveredŠ ...the ten thousand years of the sankirtan movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement."

The fact that there will be devotees of the sankirtan movement spread throughout the planet is also an indication that there must be someone, or several personalities, who will spread the Holy Name around the world.

prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama

sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama

"In as many towns and villages as there are on the surface of the earth, My Holy Names will be preached." (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Caitanya-bhagavat, Vrindavana das Thakura)

It is a fact that Srila Prabhupada was the one who conducted a preaching mission beyond the borders of India, which would marvel the Vaishnava world. Many of Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers remarked, 'We could not imagine how the prophecy of Mahaprabhu was to be fulfilled.' The Godbrothers were simply wonder-struck that 'Swami Maharaja' (Srila Prabhupada) had done it! Srila Sridhar Maharaja commented, "It is wonderful that Krsna always acts through someone. Swami Maharaja has done a miracle! We are happy, we are glad, and we are proud."

Locana Dasa Thakura mentions, in the beginning of his book Sri Caitanya Mangala, that in the future there will appear a sena-pati (a great general), who would cause an inundation of Krsna consciousness throughout the world. In the opinion of many devotees, that personality was Srila Prabhupada, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Yet it is doubtful that Srila Prabhupada would agree with them, as he always considered himself a humble servant of his Guru Maharaja, Srila Saraswati Thakura. Indeed Srila Prabhupada was a humble servant of his Guru, and this is simply one among his many qualifications. It is why he was chosen and empowered by Guru and Krsna to perform the service to the sankirtan movement that he accomplished.

However, greatly learned scholars and pure devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who know the purport of the scriptures, have understood the 'sena-pati' in Caitanya-mangala to have been Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Between 1918 and 1936, he caused a wave of Krsna consciousness to swell up in Bengal that would indeed inundate the whole world. The sound of the kirtan raised by Saraswati Thakura conquered all ten directions, silencing the atheist non-believers, the impersonalist speculators, and the imitationist sahajiya sections of pseudo-Vaisnavas.

Saraswati Thakura orchestrated a great preaching movement for eighteen years, awarding the triple staff of renunciation to his disciples and then sending these sannyasis to preach throughout India, and eventually to western countries. Before passing away from this world, Saraswati Thakura commented that he desired to spend at least ten years preaching Krsna consciousness in the western countries. This Saraswati Thakura was unable to do before his disappearance in 1936. However, through his intimate disciple, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Saraswati Thakura's last desire for preaching Krsna consciousness in the west was fulfilled. Hence, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada continued the work of the sena-pati foretold by Locana Dasa Thakura. And Saraswati Thakura's numerous disciples and grand disciples carry on the same work up to the present day.

Some persons might object that we do not concede that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the sena-pati spoken of in Caitanya-mangala. Such an objection shows an utter lack of understanding of the guru-parampara and of the position of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura in contemporary society and in aprakata-lila, the eternal pastimes of the Supreme Lord.

Saraswati Thakura appeared in this world by the prayer of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, who implored the Supreme Lord (Jagannatha) to send His personal representative to fulfill the prophecy of Mahaprabhu that the Holy Name would be spread in every town and village. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura prayed for the Supreme Lord to send such a personality from among His eternal associates. In response, Saraswati Thakura appeared as the fourth son of Bhaktivinode.

Devotees often overlook this ecstatic piece of transcendental knowledge (mentioned above) when trying to establish the greatness of Srila Prabhupada. We should remember that the greatness of Srila Prabhupada does not reside in our concocted ideas. Certainly, it does not reside in putting Srila Prabhupada in the position of Srila Rupa Goswami (the sampradaya-acharya), or in the position of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura (the sena-pati who appeared in this world as a direct response to the prayer of Bhaktivinode Thakura). Such concocted attempts at glorifying Srila Prabhupada fail miserably, due to being tainted with the kanistha mentality of ami guru jagatguru, my Guru is Jagatguru.

The actual greatness of Srila Prabhupada is beyond challenge. Yet he reserves the right of disclosure: the right to reveal his eternal identity to those who are free from envy. What Srila Prabhupada did in this world is written in eternal history. Yet to separate him from the very root of his greatness in an attempt to glorify him, denotes a lack of real transcendental vision of His Divine Grace. Such kanistha disciples are all too often found to be in the category of guru-bhogi (one who tries to enjoy the property and mission of the Guru), rather than in the position of guru-sevaka (one who serves the vision of the Guru).

The greatness of Srila Prabhupada is not understood or expressed by the methods of concoction or sentimental exaggeration. The transcendental position of His Divine Grace can only be realized when one attempts to see how Srila Prabhupada was accepted (connected) in the parampara of great masters, and what qualifications earned him that illustrious position. The bona fide disciple earns this right of divine vision of the Guru through a lifetime of service and dedication at the lotus feet of the spiritual master, and not by any amount of mundane speculation. There is no other way to the truth than this.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

....to not add or subtract anythng from what he gave but to just present what he has given in the exact same words.

 

"Every one of you. What is your realization? You write your realization – what you have realized about Krishna. That is required. It is not passive. Always you should be active. Whenever you find time, write. Never mind – two lines, four lines, but you write your realizations. Sravanam, kirtanam.

Writing or offering prayers, glories – this is one of the functions of a Vaisnava. You are hearing, but you have to write also. Then, writing means smaranam – remembering what you have heard from your spiritual master."

- Srila Prabhupada Los Angeles 1970

 

"...in the exact same words". Another nonsense statement. If this was true then there would be no reason to write your own realization. You would just copy verbatim directly out of the books. To do this would mean there is no room for personal realization. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. Go back and re-read all of Sridhar Maharaja's books and listen to as many of his audio files as you can. If you take it in submissively he will smash all the mundane mental forms that you have constructed in the name of Srila Prabhupada. Yes, allow the transcendental "form breaker" to break your forms.

[theist 1]

I really can appreciate the broad connected viewpoint expressed in Narasingha's article.

 

I also appreciate Skati-fans last post. Krsna consciousness is about each of us personally realizing Krsna and sharing those realizations with others according to our nature, creativity and ability. Not in trying to become a clone of the previous acarya. They are not clones of their spiritual master nor should any disciple of Srila Prabhupada try to be him.

 

Many can remember how in the early seventies it was common for someone giving a lecture or just talking to someone on the street to suddenly develop a vocal imitation of Prabhupada's english and hand gestures etc. This can be attributed to immaturity but we are meant to grow...and not into Prabhupada clones or clones of any Acarya..but rather to grow into our own true Krsna conscious selves.

 

I read one time Sukadeva in Seattle lamented to Srila Prabhupada that when he was giving lectures he couldn't remember the exact words of what he had read and Srila Prabhupada told him that's all right, put it in your own words.

 

What disciples have to keep strictly intact and unchanged is the essence. The danger of illusions of the mind being mistaken for revealations is always there.

 

Take the essence. Keep the essence. Share the essence.

In whatever way one can.

[Beggar 0]

Here's an example of how the "ten thousand year theory" is often applied. Its from a VNN article from 1997 about "book changes" by Gauri das Pandit das:

 

"Srila Prabhupada translated the spiritual law books for the next 10,000 years, day and night, until his dying day. He translated constantly despite his busy preaching schedule. He did this to live on in the books. He said before he left the planet that he had given us everything in his books. He said the books were the manifestations of his ecstasy. He said if we read his books and cooperated together, every thing would go on nicely. To edit his books without his sanction is risky business. We should try to be absorbed in the ecstasy of the spiritual master and not try to alter it, thinking we can 'improve upon' his ecstasy."

 

I also do not like the "book changes" so that is not why I'm posting this and quoting him. Its just to show how pervading the "ten thousand year theory" really is. And besides even if Prabhupada had said, "these books are the law books for the next ten thousand years"; then what exactly did he mean? Since he was really the message bearer of the "Goswami Literature", SB, BG and their commentaries, why isn't he referring to these literatures no matter who translates and purports them, as long as its bonafide? Of course Swami Narasingha says it a lot better than me. I guess I'm just trying to digest all this and its implications.