Sri Guru is Always Manifested

[Shakti-Fan 0]

Sri Guru is Always Manifested

BY: MURALI KRSNA SWAMI

Dec 10, BHUBANESWAR, INDIA (SUN) — It is obvious by what some devotees are writing that they are seriously misunderstanding our philosophy on Guru Tattva and thereby committing serious offenses due to their lack of proper understanding. They obviously have not properly heard from a bona fide guru and it is quite clear that they are “groping in the dark and lost in mental speculation”. Without hearing Krsna katha from the lips of a pure devotee, one cannot purify his existence and thus become free from anarthas, including tattva-bhrama (philosophical misconceptions), nor can one develop a proper understanding of how to advance in their bhajan path in order to achieve the sadhya (goal) of Krsna-prema.

Krsna says in Bhagavad gita, “By all the Vedas I am to be known” and of course, to know Krsna means to render loving service to Him. The whole Vedic process is called srauta-pantha, the path of hearing. Srila Prabhupada in many place speaks about the absolute necessity of sravanam (hearing) from the proper source as THE process of receiving this perfect transcendental knowledge of Krsna consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada’s CC Adi 16.52 Purport:

…The statement kariyachi sravana (“I have heard it”) is very important in the sense that hearing is more important than directly studying or perceiving. If one is expert in hearing and hears from the right source, his knowledge is immediately perfect. This process is called srauta-pantha, or the acquisition of knowledge by hearing from authorities. All Vedic knowledge is based on the principle that one must approach a bona fide spiritual master and hear from him the authoritative statements of the Vedas. It is not necessary for one to be a highly polished literary man to receive knowledge; to receive perfect knowledge from a perfect person, one must be expert in hearing. This is called the descending process of deductive knowledge, or avaroha-pantha.

SP, Lecture Bhagavad-gita 9.15 -- New York, December 1, 1966

Unless you hear, you cannot describe. What you shall describe? If you do not know anything about the Supreme Lord, then how can you describe? Therefore hearing is the first item, sravanam. And the whole Vedic literature is called hearing, sruti, sruti-sastra. Sruti means to receive by hearing. God has given you the power of hearing. If you hear from authoritative sources, then you become perfect, simply by hearing.

Some may say, “That is all right, I am hearing from Srila Prabhupada or other past Acaryas from their books.” This sounds good but, when it is recommended to hear in order to receive perfect knowledge, it means hearing directly from the lotus lips/ mouth of a pure devotee into the receptive and submissive inquisitive ear of a bona fide disciple. (Again, who is bona fide as spiritual master and disciple will be discussed later. For now, we are talking about the Vedic process of receiving and assimilating knowledge of the Absolute.)

Srila Prabhupada has in many places spoken of the absolute requirement of directly hearing from the mouth/ lips of a pure devotee as THE process for developing transcendental knowledge (tattva- vijnanam). Knowledge of the Absolute Truth is achieved by submissive aural reception of the transcendental sound vibration generated from the heart and projected from the lotus mouth of a bona fide Spiritual Master.

SB 3.22.7 Purport:

…Manu said that since he was advised and instructed by Kardama Muni, he was very much favored. He considered himself lucky to receive the message by aural reception. It is especially mentioned here that one should be very inquisitive to hear with open ears from the authorized source of the bona fide spiritual master. How is one to receive? One should receive the transcendental message by aural reception. The word karna-randhraih means “through the holes of the ears.” The favor of the spiritual master is not received through any other part of the body but the ears.

SB 7.5.23-24 Purport::

Unless one hears about the holy name, form and qualities of the Lord, one cannot clearly understand the other processes of devotional service. If one is fortunate enough to hear from the mouth of realized devotees, he is very easily successful on the path of devotional service. Therefore hearing of the holy name, form and qualities of the Lord is essential.

SP; Top Most Yoga System Ch.6::

…Even a child can take part in the chanting and dancing. …When it is chanted by a pure devotee of the Lord in love, it has the greatest efficacy on hearers, and as such this chanting should be heard from the lips of a pure devotee of the Lord, so that immediate effects can be achieved.

SB 1.3.44 Translation::

O learned brahmanas, when Sukadeva Gosvami recited Bhagavatam there [in the presence of Emperor Pariksit], I heard him with rapt attention, and thus, by his mercy, I learned the Bhagavatam from that great and powerful sage. Now I shall try to make you hear the very same thing as I learned it from him and as I have realized it.

PURPORT

One can certainly see directly the presence of Lord Sri Krsna in the pages of Bhagavatam if one has heard it from a self-realized great soul like Sukadeva Gosvami. … That is the process, and there is no alternative. …Sukadeva Gosvami presented Bhagavatam as he heard it from his great father, and so also Suta Gosvami is presenting Bhagavatam as he had heard it from Sukadeva Gosvami. … The word nivista means that Suta Gosvami drank the juice of Bhagavatam through his ears. That is the real process of receiving Bhagavatam. One should hear with rapt attention from the real person, and then he can at once realize the presence of Lord Krsna in every page. The secret of knowing Bhagavatam is mentioned here. … somehow or other if someone hears with rapt attention from the right person, at the very beginning one can assuredly see Lord Sri Krsna in person in the pages of Bhagavatam.

Now one may say, “ OK, I accept that in order to truly understand Vedic knowledge one has to hear from the lotus mouth and into the receptive ear, well, I am hearing from Srila Prabhupada from his tapes or CD’s…”. But that is not what Prabhupada says. One must hear directly from the lips, “Just like Sukadeva Gosvami was speaking to Maharaja Pariksit.”

SP SB Lecture June12, 1972::

….Krsna says that, “Anyone who understands Me in truth ...” So how you will understand? Simply if you hear about Him, then you will understand. Then you will understand. So hearing is not very difficult job. But you must hear from the realized soul. If you hear from a professional man, that will not be effective. Hearing must be from sadhu, from devotee, from the lips of the devotee. Just like Sukadeva Gosvami was speaking to Maharaja Pariksit.

SP Lecture SB 6.1.24, Chicago 1975::

…Then what is required? Namanta eva. Just become submissive. Don’t think yourself as very great philosopher, theologist, scientist. Just be humble. “My dear sir, just be humble.” Namanta eva. “Then what will be my business? All right, I shall become humble. Then how I shall make progress?” Now, “Just hear the message of God.” “From whom?” San-mukharitam: “through the mouth of the devotees.” Not professional, not gramophone-through the mouth of, through the lips of real devotee. Yadi... If somebody follows this process without mental speculation and if he has got intelligence, by hearing from the realized soul, he will realize everything.

Someone else may say, “ I am hearing Srila Prabhupada by reading his books….” Well, Srila Prabhupada has written;

SP Morning walk Jan 8, 1977 Bombay::

Dr. Patel: Sat-sanga is continuously coming in contact with such gurus like you or, I mean, reading that sastras, also is a sat-sanga. Prabhupada: But reading... By reading, you cannot understand. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That is also vidhilin: “In order to understand that science, he must go to guru.”

SB 2.3.1 Purport::

Therefore out of thousands and thousands of men, one may inquire about his spirit self and thus consult the revealed scriptures like Vedanta-sutras, Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. But in spite of reading and hearing such scriptures, unless one is in touch with a realized spiritual master, he cannot actually realize the real nature of self, etc.

CC Adi 16.52 Purport::

The statement kariyachi sravana (“I have heard it”) is very important in the sense that hearing is more important than directly studying or perceiving. If one is expert in hearing and hears from the right source, his knowledge is immediately perfect.

CC Antya 7.53 Purport::

As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara peyeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system.

SP Festival Lecture Nov.18, 1968, Los Angeles:

Prabhupada: … So, of course, reading or hearing. You may not have time to read, but try to read. If you have no time, you are hearing. We are publishing, we are publishing literature, books. I am trying to speak to you. That is also understanding, studying Krsna science. Rather, hearing is better reception. If you hear... The Vedas are therefore known as sruti. Sruti means it is received through hearing. Real process is hearing. And this age, Kali-yuga, people cannot study so much. … Simply by studying, becoming bookworm, you cannot advance.

S.B. 1.1.6 Purport::

…One can assimilate the knowledge of the revealed scriptures only by hearing and explaining. Hearing is called sravana, and explaining is called kirtana. The two processes of sravana and kirtana are of primary importance to progressive spiritual life. Only one who has properly grasped the transcendental knowledge from the right source by submissive hearing can properly explain the subject.

SB 2.1.8 Purport::

Srimad-Bhagavatam, or, for that matter, any other scientific literature, cannot be studied at home by one's own intellectual capacity. Medical books of anatomy or physiology are available in the market, but no one can become a qualified medical practitioner simply by reading such books at home. One has to be admitted to the medical college and study the books under the guidance of learned professors. Similarly, Srimad-Bhagavatam, the postgraduate study of the science of Godhead, can only be learned by studying it at the feet of a realized soul like Srila Vyasadeva. Although Sukadeva Gosvami was a liberated soul from the very day of his birth, he still had to take lessons of Srimad-Bhagavatam from his great father, Vyasadeva, who compiled the Srimad-Bhagavatam under the instruction of another great soul, Sri Narada Muni. Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed a learned brahmana to study Srimad-Bhagavatam from a personal bhagavata.

SB 2.1.10 Purport::

Srimad-Bhagavatam is recognized Vedic wisdom, and the system of receiving Vedic knowledge is called avaroha-pantha, or the process of receiving transcendental knowledge through bona fide disciplic succession. … The bona fide spiritual master reasonably explains everything to the disciple on the authorities of Vedic wisdom. The disciple can receive such teachings not exactly intellectually, but by submissive inquiries and a service attitude. The idea is that both the spiritual master and the disciple must be bona fide. One who is actually interested in the Bhagavatam, therefore, must not play with it by reading or hearing a portion from here and a portion from there; one must follow in the footsteps of great kings like Maharaja Ambarisa or Maharaja Pariksit and hear it from a bona fide representative of Sukadeva Gosvami.

SB 3.25.25 Translation::

”In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.”

PURPORT

The process of advancing in Krsna consciousness and devotional service is described here. The first point is that one must seek the association of persons who are Krsna conscious and who engage in devotional service. Without such association one cannot make advancement. Simply by theoretical knowledge or study one cannot make any appreciable advancement….

For those who say they can and are associating with Srila Prabhupada, let us first understand Srila Prabhupada as a bona fide Sri Guru, an external manifestation of the Caitya-guru, Supersoul. Prabhupada in many places speaks about this from sastra. Without understanding paramatma tattva one cannot understand Guru tattva. Krsna by His causeless mercy and by His own sweet will assumes the body of the Spiritual Master in order to reveal Himself to the sincere and serious devotee crying in the heart for Him.

CC Adi Lila 1.45 Translation::

“According to the deliberate opinion of all revealed scriptures, the spiritual master is nondifferent from Krsna. Lord Krsnaa in the form of the spiritual master delivers His devotees.”

Purport:

The relationship of a disciple with his spiritual master is as good as his relationship with the Supreme Lord. A spiritual master always represents himself as the humblest servitor of the Personality of Godhead, but the disciple must look upon him as the manifested representation of Godhead.

CC Adi Lila 1.44 Translation::

“Although I know that my spiritual master is a servitor of Sri Caitanya, I know Him also as a plenary manifestation of the Lord.”

PURPORT:

Every living entity is essentially a servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the spiritual master is also His servant. Still, the spiritual master is a direct manifestation of the Lord. With this conviction, a disciple can advance in Krsna consciousness. The spiritual master is nondifferent from Krsna because he is a manifestation of Krsna.

CC Madhya 20.123: ‘sastra-guru-atma'-rupe apanare janana:

‘krsna mora prabhu, trata' -- jivera haya jnana

Krsna assumes the form of the Spiritual Master and the Sastra. In this way Krsna reveals Himself to the forgetful conditioned soul and helps deliver him from maya.

SB 11.17.27 Translation::

“One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods.”

SB 4.8.44 Purport::

The supreme spiritual master is Krsna, who is therefore known as caitya-guru. This refers to the Supersoul, who is sitting in everyone's heart. He helps from within as stated in Bhagavad-gita, and He sends the spiritual master, who helps from without. The spiritual master is the external manifestation of the caitya-guru, or the spiritual master sitting in everyone's heart.

SB 11.29.6 Translation::

O my Lord! Transcendental poets and experts in spiritual science could not fully express their indebtedness to You, even if they were endowed with the prolonged lifetime of Brahma, for You appear in two features -- externally as the acarya and internally as the Supersoul -- to deliver the embodied living being by directing him how to come to You.

Easy Journey to Other Planets ch. 2::

Krsna reveals Himself from within to one who is serious about God realization. Both Krsna and the spiritual master help the sincere soul. The spiritual master is the external manifestation of God, who is situated in everyone’s heart as Supersoul.

SP Bg Lecture Bombay 73’::

…. So Krsna is advising that “I am in everyone’s heart.” You can take advice from Krsna. Krsna is ready. Krishna’s another name is caitya-guru. Caitya-guru means the guru who is situated within your heart. Krsna comes out as instructor guru or initiator guru outside, and he is sitting within the heart as caitya-guru. Krsna is ready to help you, help us, every one of us, in two ways: by the external guru and internal guru. Internal guru, He is Krsna Himself, and external guru, His manifestation, the spiritual master. So we should take advantage of two gurus and make our life successful. This is Krsna consciousness movement. Thank you very much. Hare Krsna.

CC Adi 1.58 Translation::

Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself.

PURPORT

It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caitya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.

It is very difficult, if not impossible, for a conditioned soul with contaminated consciousness to associate with and thus hear properly from the caitya-guru or the unmanifested guru (previous Acaryas). Please don’t misunderstand, Sri Guru is always manifested, but in different forms. Prabhupada says, “There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me, and all others”. That is another point later that has to be understood properly. For now…, How can a conditioned soul with polluted mind and consciousness associate with and hear, either from a previous acarya (unmanifested) or from the Supersoul? Prabhupada says in Srimad Bhagavatam purport that, “A conditioned soul doesn’t know what to do or not to do”. We should ask ourselves if we have real unflinching faith and realized knowledge on the platform of the soul? Can we see and hear such personalities; directly? Can we with our doubt practically hear their answers to your questions and doubts? If you say yes, then why are you in such confusion and doubts with uncontrolled mind and senses? Why are you always speculating to try and figure it out? Why are we making so many mistakes? Why can’t we recognize and properly treat pure Vaisnavas? Why do we keep changing in our philosophical positions? In other words, is it working, practically? Who will chastise you and rectify you and punish you with their merciful and loving discipline? Who will reciprocate with you in a loving way as to inspire our unconditional surrender? With out Guru seva and Guru bhakti there is no question of Krsna seva and Krsna bhakti. Where will we learn this? How do we understand it and where do we practice it? Krsna assumes the form of the spiritual master and the deity because we are blind and cannot see or hear from Him directly. THIS is how He helps us to learn the science and how to serve.

Of course some few advanced sincere souls with the necessary purification and practical faith will be able to access the caitya guru and the previous Acaryas, but that is after liberation and they are very rare souls. Srila Prabhupada explains;

SB 4.28.52 Purport:

Consultation with the Supersoul seated within everyone's heart is possible only when one is completely free from the contamination of material attachment. One who is sincere and pure gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramatma feature sitting within everyone's heart. The Paramatma is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. The Lord can reside within the heart, and He can also come out before a person and give him instructions. Thus the spiritual master is not different from the Supersoul sitting within the heart.

An uncontaminated soul or living entity can get a chance to meet the Paramatma face to face. Just as one gets a chance to consult with the Paramatma within his heart, one also gets a chance to see Him actually situated before him. Then one can take instructions from the Supersoul directly. This is the duty of the pure devotee: to see the bona fide spiritual master and consult with the Supersoul within the heart.

When the brahmana asked the woman who the man lying on the floor was, she answered that he was her spiritual master and that she was perplexed about what to do in his absenceK/u>. At such a time the Supersoul immediately appears, provided the devotee is purified in heart by following the directions of the spiritual master. A sincere devotee who follows the instructions of the spiritual master certainly gets direct instructions from his heart from the Supersoul. Thus a sincere devotee is always helped directly or indirectly by the spiritual master and the Supersoul.

So to associate with the previous Acaryas or the Supersoul, one has to be completely free from the contamination of material attachment; an uncontaminated pure soul. In other words, he has to be a liberated soul, beyond the bodily concept filled with material desires (anarthas). Without being on that platform, it is much more effective and intelligent to take association and instruction from a Manifested Sri Guru, siksa or diksa. Real Guru is the external manifestation of the Caitya-guru and bona fide diksa and siksa gurus are said by Srila Prabhupada in a CC purport to be equal and identical manifestations of the Caitya- guru (Supersoul). Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, “Sri Guru is always physically manifested, otherwise how can Krsna’s samsar go on?” One who is sincere and has received the mercy of his bona fide Sri Guru can understand it. Without the mercy of Sri Guru and Krsna no one else will be able to understand.

Next time I will post an excerpt from a conversation with Srila Gour Govinda Swami where he nicely speaks on some of the points I have presented before you today. Please try to overlook all of my faults in my small attempt to participate in and hopefully help some devotees in understanding these very subtle and confidential tattvas. I am trying to share what I have learned and realized by the mercy of my revered spiritual master Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja.

Thank you for your patience.

Your servant,

Murali Krsna Swami

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[Guest guest]

We must hear from the mouth of a pure devotee

[His voice [the pure devotee] is spiritually very powerful because it touches the particles of saffron dust on the lotus feet of the Lord]

The transcendental vibration from the mouth of a pure devotee is so powerful that it can revive the living entity's memory of his eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In our material existence, under the influence of illusory maya, we have almost forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord, exactly like a man sleeping very deeply who forgets his duties. In the Vedas it is said that every one of us is sleeping under the influence of maya. We must get up from this slumber and engage in the right service, for thus we can properly utilize the facility of this human form of life. As expressed in a song by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, Lord Caitanya says, jiva jaga, jiva jaga. The Lord asks every sleeping living entity to get up and engage in devotional service so that his mission in this human form of life may be fulfilled. This awakening voice comes through the mouth of a pure devotee.

A pure devotee always engages in the service of the Lord, taking shelter of His lotus feet, and therefore he has a direct connection with the saffron mercy-particles that are strewn over the lotus feet of the Lord. Although when a pure devotee speaks the articulation of his voice may resemble the sound of this material sky, the voice is spiritually very powerful because it touches the particles of saffron dust on the lotus feet of the Lord. As soon as a sleeping living entity hears the powerful voice emanating from the mouth of a pure devotee, he immediately remembers his eternal relationship with the Lord, although up until that moment he had forgotten everything.

For a conditioned soul, therefore, it is very important to hear from the mouth of a pure devotee, who is fully surrendered to the lotus feet of the Lord without any material desire, speculative knowledge or contamination of the modes of material nature. Every one of us is kuyogi because we have engaged in the service of this material world, forgetting our eternal relationship with the Lord as His eternal loving servants. It is our duty to rise from the kuyoga platform to become suyogis, perfect mystics. The process of hearing from a pure devotee is recommended in all Vedic scriptures, especially by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. One may stay in his position of life -- it does not matter what it is -- but if one hears from the mouth of a pure devotee, he gradually comes to the understanding of his relationship with the Lord and thus engages in His loving service, and his life becomes completely perfect. Therefore, this process of hearing from the mouth of a pure devotee is very important for making progress in the line of spiritual understanding. SB 4.20.26P

[Kulapavana 0]

CC Adi 1.58 Translation::

Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee.

 

Since one cannot visually experience a departed guru, however great he might have been, one should seek out a physically present acharya to take shelter of.

[Guest guest]

I agree. You have presented the very essence.

 

 

CC Adi 1.58 Translation::

Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee.

 

Since one cannot visually experience a departed guru, however great he might have been, one should seek out a physically present acharya to take shelter of.

[Guest guest]

 

CC Adi 1.58 Translation::

Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee.

 

Since one cannot visually experience a departed guru, however great he might have been, one should seek out a physically present acharya to take shelter of.

 

Liberated ... free from ALL bonds.

 

There is no single guru on the globe recognized who has the correct renditions of the Supreme; only the final avatar.

 

What was written as beautiful as it sounds but verily who knows what it says for the masses to understand?

 

And of the Supreme Godhead; all of the species must be honored, irregardless whether any know the words 'lotus feet.'

 

So the point is .... any of the humble can be the Guru since we 'can' learn unconditional joy from the Baby, as in each "He' exists but only one can bring the understanding of men into the contents of reasoned applicability.

[Guest guest]

 

Liberated ... free from ALL bonds.

 

There is no single guru on the globe recognized who has the correct renditions of the Supreme; only the final avatar.

 

What was written as beautiful as it sounds but verily who knows what it says for the masses to understand?

 

And of the Supreme Godhead; all of the species must be honored, irregardless whether any know the words 'lotus feet.'

 

So the point is .... any of the humble can be the Guru since we 'can' learn unconditional joy from the Baby, as in each "He' exists but only one can bring the understanding of men into the contents of reasoned applicability.

 

 

It may well be that we are given our own realizations and form opinions based on them, but the process followed by the Gaudiya Vaisnavas doesn't place much value on that. We are not self elected gurus who are in love with our own voices, rather we follow the currant of sound descending through the Rupanuga parampara, the surrendered souls.

The process of approaching a bona-fide spiritual master and offering our very life and soul to tangibly hear and serve entails confirmation from the guru that surrender is actually real and not just a figment of our imagination, otherwise it is very easy to claim we are genuine representitives of guru and Bhagavan, coming in gurus or Gods name.

It all takes bucket loads of sacrifice, that most of us are nowhere near capable of.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad showed this approach by example and His Diksa guru recognized his keen attitude to hear, even confirming he hears well. It was also through Srila Sridhara Maharaj for many years that he intently listened to a vast ocean of transcendental realization.

 

The real currant of divinity is passed through aural transmission as is enunciated here very clearly by this Murali Krsna Swami, from heart to tongue to ear to heart. Krsna Nam comes to us in sound and it is only the genuine representitive that can introduce us newcomers to the personality of Godhead. They are already established in their eternal loving relationship. And their very utterance of the Holy Name is non-different than God Himself at that auspicious time when divinity is transferred from one soul to another.

Both real siksa and diksa are happening there simultaneously.

Like being born into a particular family the seed has to be there from the father to prove who is the child, not that just anyone can claim this is my father, the father knows who he has given birth to just as he also knows the obedient child who does his will and follows his wishes. If we are talking about following instruction it is the instruction of god and guru to aproach an agent of god for initiation into the holy name.

Of coarse there may be some exception but it is extremely rare.

 

As Jesus stated, " Many shall come to me in those last days claiming Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your Name, cast out demons in your Name, heal the sick in your Name? And I shall say to them get away from me, you workers of iniquity I don't know you for you failed to do the will of my father who sent me"

The whole process of initiation is being hoodwinked by those who are either too afraid to make the committment to a life of service, or have maybe tried to connect through fallen souls and therefore have become disillusioned, and try to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Genuine connection is available if one wants to pay the sacrifice otherwise we can go on speculating about this sacred transmission untill the day we die.

A wise person will know they need help from a living spiritual master and take steps to go and get it, the system has been given, it is not nessacary to concoct a new one, it's perfect if we want to adjust to it. To submissively hear, receive and then do according to what direction is given.

But don't interfere with the system that all of our acharyas have recomended and practiced themselves, as it may be keeping sincere souls from their greatest good fortune.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja: In Srimad-BhÅgavatam, Krishna

says, “First I transmitted Vedic knowledge to this world

through BrahmÅ.” And that was entrusted to his disciples:

the four KumÅras, Marici, AngirÅ, and other sages. The

knowledge was first invested in them and later in books.

First it was presented in the form of sound, not

script. Gradually it became fixed in writing. In the

beginning, it descended directly through sound from

one man to another, from lip to ear. No script or writing

was invented at that time, but knowledge was contained

in the form of sound. Passing through the ear to

mouth, and again to the ear of another, gradually it

became lost. In connection with the mediator sometimes

it becomes lost and disfigured, distorted; and

then again the Lord feels the necessity of appearing in

this world (yadÅ yadÅ hi dharmasya).

[Guest guest]

 

Since one cannot visually experience a departed guru, however great he might have been

One can experience Srila Prabhupada through his books just as much as one could pre-samadhi.

[Guruvani 0]

Devotee: Can you explain how the principle of disciplic succession

works? I was under the impression that in your teaching there must be

an unbroken chain of disciplic succession beginning with God

Himself, in order for the knowledge to be properly understood. But

when I read Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It

Is, I found that the disciplic succession contained only thirty-eight

names, although it says that the system is fifty centuries old. Is this a

complete list, or are some names left out? How are we to understand

these apparent historical discrepancies?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja:

Our guru parampara, disciplic succession,

follows the ideal, not the body; it is a succession of instructing

spiritual masters, not formal initiating spiritual masters. In a song

about our guru parampara written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati,

it is mentioned, mahaprabhu sri caitanya radha krsna nahe anya

rupanuga janera jivana: the highest truth of Krsna consciousness

comes down through the channel of siksa gurus, instructing spiritual

masters. Those who have the standard of realization in the proper line

have been accepted in the list of our disciplic succession. It is not a

diksa guru parampara, a succession of formal initiating gurus.

Diksa, or initiation is more or less a formal thing; the substantial thing

is siksa, or spiritual instruction. And if our siksa and diksa gurus or

instructing and initiating spiritual masters are congruent, then we are

most fortunate. There are different gradations of spiritual masters. In

the scriptures, the symptoms of the guru and the symptoms of the

disciple have been described: the guru must be qualified in so many

ways, and the disciple must also be qualified. Then when they come in

connection, the desired result will be produced.

We are concerned with Krsna consciousness, wherever it is available.

In the Bhagavad-gita and especially in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Krsna

says, "I start the Krsna consciousness movement, but gradually by the

enervating influence of the material world, it weakens. When I find

that it has diminished considerably, I return and begin a fresh

movement. Again, when I find that it is becoming degraded by the

adverse influence of the environment, I send one of my

representatives to clear the path and give some fresh energy, invest

some fresh capital in my Krsna consciousness movement." What is

Krsna consciousness? We must examine the standard of knowledge.

The guru should try to impart to his disciple the capacity of reading

what Krsna consciousness really is. Krsna consciousness is not a

trade; it is not anyone's monopoly. The sincere souls must thank their

lucky stars that they can appreciate what Krsna consciousness is,

wherever it may be.

 

Devotee: How are we to understand that in the history of our disciplic

succession, it appears that there are gaps where there was no initiating

guru present to formally accept disciples?

 

 

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: We are not concerned with a material

connection. The mediator is not this flesh and body as we generally

think. In studying the development of scientific thought, we may

connect Newton to Einstein, leaving aside many unimportant

scientists. We may trace the development of science from Galileo to

Newton and then to Einstein, neglecting the middle points. If their

contributions are taken into account, then the whole thing is taken into

account, and lesser scientists may be omitted. When a long distance is

to be surveyed, the nearest posts may be neglected. Between one

planet and another, the unit of measurement is the light year; distance

is calculated in light years and not from mile to mile, or meter to

meter. In the disciplic succession, only the great stalwarts in our line

are considered important.

 

Devotee: There was one question still in my mind on guru parampara

which was not clarified. Between Baladeva Vidyabhusana and

Jagannatha Dasa Babaji is a gap of almost a hundred years. How is it

that between the two of them no one is listed in our guru parampara?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja:

We have to forget material consideration

when we consider the spiritual line. Here in this plane, the spiritual

current is always being disturbed and interrupted by material

obstructions. Whenever truth is interrupted by a material flow and

becomes mixed or tampered with, Krsna appears to again reinstate the

truth in its former position of purity (yada yada hi dharmasya glanir

bhavati bharata). That attempt is always being made by the Lord and

his devotees.

The flow of spiritual truth is a living thing, not a dead thing. The

vigilant eye of the Lord is always over our heads, and whenever it is

necessary to keep the current pure and flowing in full force, help

descends from above. Krsna says to Arjuna, "What I say to you today,

I spoke to Vivasvan many, many years ago. Now, by the influence of

material conception, that very truth has become contaminated, and so

again I say the same thing to you today."

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sridhar Maharaja:

I am not this physical body. My own physical identification should be

challenged if I am too much addicted to the physical guru parampara.

"Who am I? Am I this physical body?" If I am spiritual, then in the

spiritual sphere I shall have to look with spiritual eyes, and pursue

whoever will come before me who is really following the path of

Mahaprabhu.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sridhar Maharaja:

The eye experience and the ear experience

of a person is not the whole experience. The real experience

is through the words, the idea that the guru has

given. That is Krishna consciousness.

 

We should be concerned about the concepts and ideas that our guru has given us more so than setting in front of some so-called rasika-acharya so I can claim to have the real connection and that everybody else is unconnected because they don't have physical proximity to some so-called rasika guru.

 

The arrogance and conceit of the physical guru proponents is so gross and repugnant that it beggars description.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

One can experience Srila Prabhupada through his books just as much as one could pre-samadhi.

Here's a good portion of a purport quoted in Sripad Murali Krsna Maharaja's article:

SB 3.22.7 Purport:

…Manu said that since he was advised and instructed by Kardama Muni, he was very much favored. He considered himself lucky to receive the message by aural reception. It is especially mentioned here that one should be very inquisitive to hear with open ears from the authorized source of the bona fide spiritual master. How is one to receive? One should receive the transcendental message by aural reception. The word karna-randhraih means “through the holes of the ears.” The favor of the spiritual master is not received through any other part of the body but the ears.

Also hearing from a bonafide spritual master in his physical presence is sambhoga. Then reading his books out of his presence is vipralambha or separation. The separation mood in relation to Sri Guru is not perfomed with the attitude, "He's in his books so I am fully satisfied". The real mood is to lament that I am separated, and then be somewhat consoled by the books. "After all Prabhupada said that he's in his books so I see him here, by his order." But then unto a real disciple the pangs of separation return and one feels bereft without his personal association and longs for the day that he or she can be reunited with Srila Prabhupada in physical reality, dreams, another body anything but this separation that burns like fire. Srila Narayana Maharaja said that unless a disciple serves his gurudeva with great faith during the lifetime of the guru then he will not be able to feel this kind of separation from Sri Guru. So the concept that "Srila Prabhupada is in his books" without taking into consideration what is actually in his books, the emphasis on hearing and sadhu sanga is like some kind of twisted logic. That twisted logic only sees one aspect of spiritual duality in relation to Sri Guru's association and thoroughly disregards Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's conception of acintya bheda (a)bheda tattva, simultaneous oneness and difference.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

One can experience Srila Prabhupada through his books just as much as one could pre-samadhi.

 

perhaps for a great devotee like yourself that is true, but for a neophyte like myself what Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami says in CC Adi 1.58 is indeed valid:

jive sakshat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe

siksha-guru haya krishna-mahanta-svarupe

"Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee".

[Guruvani 0]

UNSEEN GURUS

 

 

Sridhar Maharaja:

There are others also who are working, and their ideal will inspire me,

although physically I am not seeing any companion or any follower

with me. The inspiration of the unseen gurus will be our fare. They

will inspire us to go on with the journey. And our own sincere

hankering for the truth will be our real guide. That is guru parampara.

Who is guru? Is guru a body? Or is the guru a vairagi, a renunciant?

Or is the guru only a formal guise, a hypocrite who is showing the

appearance of a sadhu, but within is doing something else? Who is a

guru? Only one who will exclusively guide me to Krsna and

Mahaprabhu, with devotion. He is my guru, whatever he may be.

[theist 1]

 

One can experience Srila Prabhupada through his books just as much as one could pre-samadhi.

 

Absolutely. Seeing the guru or hearing the guru? Some apparently think of Srila Prabhupada as an elderly Indian man but in fact he is a self realized soul. We cannot even see each other let alone Krsna representative.

 

It is not wise to have so much faith in one's material eyes.

[theist 1]

Guruvani,

 

These quotes from BR Sridhar Maharaja are simply glorious.

[Guruvani 0]

 

perhaps for a great devotee like yourself that is true, but for a neophyte like myself what Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami says in CC Adi 1.58 is indeed valid:

jive sakshat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe

siksha-guru haya krishna-mahanta-svarupe

"Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee".

Anyway, guidance from the Supersoul, the Chaitya-guru does not come by seeing him. The Supersoul guides the devotee through intuitive knowledge - what we call intelligence.

 

Since when do we have to see the Supersoul or the spiritual master to take guidance from them?

 

If the guru is not in his books, then why did Srila Prabhupada dedicate his whole mission on the publishing and aggressive distribution of books?

 

The BODY guru addicts are trying their best to neutralize the vani of Srila Prabhupada, but they will never succeed, because the vani of Srila Prabhupada is saving souls everyday and will continue to do so for thousands of years.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Guruvani,

 

These quotes from BR Sridhar Maharaja are simply glorious.

I agree.

 

 

Sridhar Maharaja:

Sometimes the formal must be left aside. Once, Alexander the Great

was with his father, and they came upon a chariot with a thick knot

tied in its rope. There was an inscription above the knot, and there it

was written, "Whoever can untie this knot will be a great king in the

future." The young Alexander asked his father, "What is it Papa?" His

father replied, "This knot has been firmly tied here, and there it is

written that whoever can unloose it will be a great king in the future."

Alexander said, "I shall do it." He took out his sword and cut the rope.

Is it clear? The formality was not kept. A man stood by the side. He

came out and said, "Yes, he will be a great king. It cannot be

otherwise." The formality was left aside, the realistic view taken, and

immediately Alexander cut the Gordion knot. It is a famous story.

Sticking to formality, he would have been lost. This happened also in

the case of Columbus. Someone challenged, can you make an egg

stand on a nail? Columbus pushed it in, a portion broke and he stood it

on the nail and said, "Yes, I have done so." This is practical

knowledge.

So, the real disciplic line provides practical knowledge in support of

the divine love which is coming down. We must bow down our heads

wherever we find support of that. We should not become formalists,

but substantialists; not fashionists, not imitationists, but realistic

thinkers. That should always be our temperament.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

The separation mood in relation to Sri Guru is not perfomed with the attitude, "He's in his books so I am fully satisfied". The real mood is to lament that I am separated, and then be somewhat consoled by the books. "After all Prabhupada said that he's in his books so I see him here, by his order."

 

yes, if you say that you would rather read your guru's words than be in his presence to hear from him directly and directly ask him questions - you are either a complete idiot or a liar.

 

we would not be having this - yet another - fruitless discussion if Prabhupada was here to settle these differences once and for all.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sridhar Maharaja:

Having accepted a spiritual master, one will find that his guru has so

many disciples, and he will take from them also. His spiritual master

will recommend some books for him. He will say, "Read Bhagavadgita

and Srimad-Bhagavatam." That will also help us to get so many

gurus - through the books, where we will find many references and

quotations from many gurus.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

"Lord Brahma heard the occult sound tapa, but he did not see the person who vibrated the sound. (…) There is no difference between the Lord and sound vibration coming from Him, even though He is not personally present. The best way of understanding is to accept such divine instruction, and Brahma, the prime spiritual master of everyone, is the living example of this process of receiving transcendental knowledge. The potency of transcendental sound is never minimized because the vibrator is apparently absent. (…) The secret of success is to receive the sound from the right source of a bona fide spiritual master. (…) The disciple, however, must be ready to execute the order of the bona fide spiritual master as Lord Brahma executed the instruction of his spiritual master, the Lord Himself.” (SB 2.9.8 purport)

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sridhar Maharaja:

So the sastra gurus, are doing some work

as they have been inspired by Sri Krsna. They are not coming in direct

touch with the fallen souls. So, we cannot say that because they are

not directly preaching to the fallen souls, they are not sparsa-mani, or

touchstones.

 

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Since when do we have to see the Supersoul or the spiritual master to take guidance from them?

 

 

because in both cases people like you hear only what you want to hear.

 

that is why Krsna sends a siksha guru in a direct, physical form to guide us.

 

you may dispute what KK Goswami wrote in this verse and what Prabhupada confirmed in his purport but it is of little value. what was good for Prabhupada and other acharyas in our vedic tradition (acceptance of a physically present spiritual master) is good for people now and in the future.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sridhar Maharaja:

We are minors. Our father has left us with so many important

documents about the properties we are to inherit. As minors, we

should try to find out what properties belong to us in those documents.

When we come of age, then we shall take possession of our rightful

inheritance. The raganuga sastra, the scriptures of spontaneous

devotional love, has been given to us, left to us, by our guru, our

guardian, our father. And as we grow more and more in the spiritual

line, we will have to detect what is our prospect, what is our real

wealth. We must recover that. We must have that. It is there in the

document. It is ours. This is our position.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

"Lord Brahma heard the occult sound tapa, but he did not see the person who vibrated the sound. (…)

 

you are not Brahma. you hear and you argue back. you have doubts and questions. or at least that is the case with 99.9% of people interested in this process.

 

if hearing tapes or reading books alone works for you - that is great, I'm happy for you - but dont try to reinvent the wheel or tell everybody that your method will work for them too.