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Sri Guru is Always Manifested

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The BODY guru addicts are trying their best to neutralize the vani of Srila Prabhupada, but they will never succeed, because the vani of Srila Prabhupada is saving souls everyday and will continue to do so for thousands of years.

Only a very advanced disciple will be able to properly harmonize the vani and vapu of Sri Guru Therefore is always advisable to get the association of such an advanced disciple for they can help you understand the writings of a great sastra guru. The point that Srila Sridhar Maharaja often made is that the truth moves in a zig zag way. So such an advanced disciple can be either a diksa or siksa disciple. Otherwise without good association we will over emphasize one instruction of Sri Guru at the expense of another. "To err is human". Therefore if one takes the position that I have stated above, why would it be reasonable and logical to assume that one therefore disagrees with the concept of "unseen gurus" or doesn't believe that, "the vani of Srila Prabhupada is saving souls everyday"? How can thoughts in dulality ever be harmonized without applying acintya bhedaa bheda tattva?

In fact the proper application of acintya bhedaa bheda tattva according to Sri Sridhar Maharaja is the very basis of the system of understanding Krsna bhakti, at least on the level of sambandha jnana, "knowing what is what".

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Sridhar Maharaja:

Who is our guru? He is not to be found in the physical form; our guru is to

be traced wherever we find the embodiment of the pure thought and

understanding which Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu imparted to

save us.

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Only a very advanced disciple will be able to properly harmonize the vani and vapu of Sri Guru Therefore is always advisable to get the association of such an advanced disciple for they can help you understand the writings of a great sastra guru. The point that Srila Sridhar Maharaja often made is that the truth moves in a zig zag way.

 

Sridhar Maharaja:

We have left all social concerns and so many other shackles. For

what? For the Absolute Truth. And wherever I shall find that, I must

bow down my head. And if a great soul shows us, "This is the path to

where you will find your thirst quenched. The line is in this zigzag

way," we must accept that for our own interest. We are worshipers not

of form, but of substance. If the current of spiritual substance comes

another way, but I think that I must try to go this way to reach my

goal, it is only jealousy, blind tenacity to stick to the physical thing.

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Sridhar Maharaja: Who is our guru? He is not to be found in the physical form; our guru is tobe traced wherever we find the embodiment of the pure thought andunderstanding which Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu imparted to save us.
Again simultaneous oneness and difference. If you were directly before Srila Sridhar Maharaja during his manifest lila, on his veranda and he just said,"Who is our guru? He is not to be found in the physical form". Then he asked you for a drink of water or for some homeopathic medicine; you wouldn't get it for him? Of course not, but some foolish persons could take it that way. Therefore whenever a precept is given by Sri Guru there may be the need for further details. Consequently if the guru whom you received the precept from is no longer manifest then we can pose our question "wherever we find the embodiment of the pure thought and understanding which Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu imparted to save us." Did you note the word embodiment here. Notice that the word "body" is within the word "embodiment". Just because someone says that the truth can be embodied, does that make them a "body addict"? Sometimes all of us including myself need to slow down and think before we fire off a reply.

 

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Here is the vapu vadi creedo:

Sridhar Maharaja:

 

do you really think there would be a Sridhara Maharaja without the years he spent directly associating and learning from his guru?

 

the ability to quote is very common. the ability to understand the quotes is not. many Iskcon devotees simply learned to repeat things in fairly random order. that is nice, but does not go very far.

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do you really think there would be a Sridhara Maharaja without the years he spent directly associating and learning from his guru?

 

 

I got a letter from Sridhar Maharaja once and he expressed his satisfaction that I was appreciating his taped lectures very much.

 

He was satisfied and pleased that I was listening to his tapes and he never gave me any instruction that I need to get his physical association, rather he told me to assist Bhakti Sudhir Maharaja in printing his books and distributing his message though his books.

 

So, that is my humble service.

To try and present his teachings as he gave them.

 

He never asked me for any physical service or encouraged me to seek that.

 

He was more pleased for me to do some service in assisting with publishing his books and spreading his message to devotees all over the world.

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do you really think there would be a Sridhara Maharaja without the years he spent directly associating and learning from his guru?

 

 

but, why do you ignore the example of Srila Prabhupada who never had more than few hours total of physical association with Srila Saraswati Goswami?

 

Why do you ignore that fact that the physical succession has been broken many times over the centuries and was revived through following the vani of the bygone acharyas?

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Sridhara Maharaja is being grossly misrepresented by Sparky here. When he was talking about substance over form in the quotes that

Sparky is posting here in large colored font, he wasn't talking about books versus a person or any such thing. He was giving a very powerful instruction that seems to have been lost on Sparky to digest fully. His point was that Krsna can, and does, come to the receptive soul in any number of forms. What is important is the substantive exchange, not the external arrangement. This was particularly pertinent for Iskcon devotees at the time he was giving those instructions since their only experience of Sri Guru was in the particular form of A.C. Bhaktivedanta. Sridhara Maharaja was instructing those devotees to try to seek the substance of Krsna consciousness that compelled them to join Iskcon in the first place and move away from their misunderstanding regarding the descent of divinity. He was teaching them to broaden their vision. He was also teaching them that Sri Guru in one form speaks and acts in one way, or form, and in another manifestation the presentation of the same substance will take another form. This was readily apparent to anyone who had the darshana of Srila Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja. They were different in form (both in terms of their physical presence and in terms of the way they expressed the substantive truth) yet they were delivering the same substance.

 

Even today so many sadhakas are confused by this. Certainly the ritviks are the prime example, so it's not surprising that Sparky would stumble over this instruction.

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but, why do you ignore the example of Srila Prabhupada who never had more than few hours total of physical association with Srila Saraswati Goswami?

 

Why do you ignore that fact that the physical succession has been broken many times over the centuries and was revived through following the vani of the bygone acharyas?

 

without these precious "few hours" there would be no Prabhupada either and that is a FACT! Even a moment spent in direct association with a pure devotee is incredibly potent. why are you trying to minimize it?

 

 

As to the "breaks" in succession. The line of succession as delineated by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is pure idealism - always more conceptual than factual. Read the descriptions of Lord Caitanya's tree in Adi Lila for more detailed account of our line. There are countless names of gurus in our line going back to Vivasvan and Lord Krsna and only the most prominent are mentioned. Some of these gurus left no records of their service that made it into our times. White spots on the map do not mean that there is nothing on the ground - only that we have no information about it. the line was hardly ever broken. Do you think our line as listed is the only line, and that there were no great Vaishnavas besides those on the list that played a vital role in keeping the tradition alive? that is preposterous...

 

would you delete the names of great Gaudiya acharyas like Sridhara Maharaja from the future list of gurus in our line? in the spot between Bhaktisidhanta, Srila Prabhupada and whoever is going be on that list 100 years from now? are you foolish enough to dismiss such gurus as irrelevant to the sampradaya? in the same way there were countless unnamed great Vaishnavas in our line.

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without these precious "few hours" there would be no Prabhupada either and that is a FACT! Even a moment spent in direct association with a pure devotee is incredibly potent. why are you trying to minimize it?

 

 

I didn't minimize it.

Srila Prabhupada did when he accepted hundreds and thousand of disciples he never personally met or gave any direct instructions too.

He accepted then as disciples on the basis that they were reading his books and following his instructions.

 

But, you like to distort everything and say that it is I who minimized it.

 

You always distort the facts and deny the history of how Srila Prabhupada conducted affairs when he was physically before us.

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Enough already. If you are truly interested in spiritual life read the books and take the instructions regarding the necessity of sadhu sanga to heart. Srila Prabhupada accepted every one of his disciples personally even if he wasn't physically present at the initiation ceremony. The fact is - he was present physically on the planet to give his blessings and accept each candidate personally. He also traveled widely and answered questions put to him in writing. He had thousands of disciples and it is true that many of them had limited personal interaction with him, but from his words and from his representatives the unequivical instruction regarding the necessity of sadhu sanga for those serious about their spiritual progress rings loud and clear.

 

It is also clear from his writings who such a sadhu is - what are the signs of an advanced vaishnava - these instructions are clear as well.

 

Guruvani - you think Sridhara Maharaja took association with his Guru Maharaja personally as unimportant? Do you know why he resisted when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta instructed him to go to the west to preach? Do you know the reasons he gave his Guru Maharaja for not wanting to carry out that instruction?

 

Have you ever heard the story of when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was in Vrndavana and his disciples had the choice to going to visit various sacred places in the holy dhama or staying to listen to him and both Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada stayed to listen - have you not understood the importance of conveying that pastime/lesson on to the next generation of devotees? They could have gone to the sacred pilgrimage sites and reasoned that they could associate with their Guru Maharaja in his writings - could they not? The instruction to go on pilgrimage and honor all the various holy places should be honored, should it not?

 

Association with Sri Guru is not 'physical association' whether it be through his/her written word or through his/her personal presence.

 

No matter how much you try to minimize it or dismiss it - the crystal clear instruction about the necessity of association with two Bhagavatas - the book and the person - will always ring true in the hearts of aspiring sadhakas.

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No matter how much you try to minimize it or dismiss it - the crystal clear instruction about the necessity of association with two Bhagavatas - the book and the person - will always ring true in the hearts of aspiring sadhakas.

Crystal clear post.

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I got a letter from Sridhar Maharaja once and he expressed his satisfaction that I was appreciating his taped lectures very much.

 

He was satisfied and pleased that I was listening to his tapes and he never gave me any instruction that I need to get his physical association, rather he told me to assist Bhakti Sudhir Maharaja in printing his books and distributing his message though his books.

 

So, that is my humble service.

To try and present his teachings as he gave them.

 

He never asked me for any physical service or encouraged me to seek that.

 

He was more pleased for me to do some service in assisting with publishing his books and spreading his message to devotees all over the world.

 

So many nice realizations from both sides here, no complaints!

 

If that is what he asked then are you still doing it? Goswami Maharaj is and he also came to the realization for him personally what that instruction meant in substance, have you spoken to him recently? I'm sure he could do with any assistence that is offered sincerely, if you consider this nitya vani.

 

You could probably say Goswami Maharaj's service was purely spiritual but you also served his physical presence. It's tangible and although guru Maharaj's books also take form, to present substance that is our ideal and although they are form Srila Govinda maharaj regarded them as non different from deities. I remember Goswami telling me he tried to marry the form and substance together in those books, but we're not all in our spiritual forms... But the reality is the pure mahabhagavat devotees are their forms and when you are in their presence you better believe it, or you may just end up an atheist seeing them and yourself as the body and your divine initiation process as a mere ritual .. if only the reality of Srila Sridhara Maharaj's body were realized.

 

 

Of coarse Srila Sridhara Maharaj was renown as a form breaker and that is one of the many things we love about him, but nowhere have I ever heard him state not to take initiation or tell all who aproached him to just go away and read my books and listen to the Lord in your heart even if his instruction alone is capable of transforming a materialist to a devotee.

There are many such sampradayas in India today with no visible parampara.

 

But why on earth have our latter day acharyas chosen to take formal initiation as an example to others, if it isn't their nessacary. Their example is their vani, they speak through action.

 

Still at the same time KB if you choose not to continue your guru varga with formal diksa we have no problem with that, just give your guru's vani, it's all the Lord's arrangement.

 

Srila Sridara Maharaj placed so much emphasis on serving and helping the central math. One old lady who lived there for a long time was thought to be very elevated untill someone enquired about her once, Srila Sridhara Maharaj replied she never served me, she came here as if it is a holiday camp, so near yet so far. So both concepts can be accomodated. He often told how the mosquito can take dharsan of gurus feet but it is only taking without giving.

The all important thing is guru seva, it is all precious.

 

yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado

yasyaprasadan na-gatih kuto 'pi

dhyayam stuvams tasya yasas tri-sandhyam

vande guroh sri-caranaravindam

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This is the aroti sung every day by thousands of devotees in the Sri Gauranga-Govinda sanga

.

 

Composed by

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj

 

(1) jaya guru maharaj yati rajeswara

sri-bhakti-rakshaka deva-goswami sridhara

 

All glory to you, Guru Maharaj ,

Of sanyyasi kings, the emperor:

The glorious Srila Bhakti Rakshaka Deva-Goswami Sridhara.

 

 

(2) patita-pavana-lila vistari bhuvane

nistarila dina-hina apamara jane

 

Extending in this world your pastimes

As savior of the fallen,

You delivered all the suffering souls.

Including the most forsaken.

 

 

(3) tomara karunaghana murati heriya

preme bhagyavan jiva pade murachiya

 

Beholding your holy form

Of concentrated mercy;

The fortunate souls fall in a swoon

Of divine loves ecstasy.

 

 

(4) sudirgya supibya deha divya-bhavasraya

divya-jnana dipta-netra divya-jyotirmaya.

 

Your lofty form full of divine emotion

Is nectar for our eyes;

With divine knowledge and shining eyes,

Your effulgence fills the skies.

 

 

(5) suvana-suraja-kanti aruna-varsana

tilaka, tulasi-mala, chandana-bhusana

 

A golden sun resplendent

In robes of saffron dressed;

Adorned with tilak, Tulasi beads

And with sandal fragrance blessed.

 

 

(6) apurva sri-anga-sobha kare jhalamala

audarya-unnata-bhava madhurjya ujjvala

 

The matchless beauty of your holy form

Dazzling in its brightness;

Your benevolence of most noble heart

In the moonglow of loves sweetness.

 

 

(7) acintya-pratibha, snigdha, gambhira udara

jada-jnana-giri-vajra divya-diksadhara

 

Inconceivable genius, affection,

Gravity, and magnanimity,

A thunderbolt crushing mundane knowledge,

The reservoir bestowing divinity.

 

 

(8) gaura-sankirttana-rasa-rasera asraya

"dayal nitai" name nitya premamaya

 

In the Golden Lords sankirttan dance

You revel ecstatically,

"Dayal Nitai Dayal Nitai!"

You ever call so lovingly.

 

 

(9) sangopange gaura-dhame nitya parakasa

gupta govardhane divya-lilara-vilasa.

 

Eternally present in Navadwip Dham

With your associates, by your sweet will

You enjoy your holy pastimes

On hidden Govardhan Hill.

 

 

(10) gaudiya-acarya-gosthi-gaurava-bhajana

gaudiya siddantamani kantha vibhusana

 

You are the fit recipient of your dignity

In the Gaudiya Acharya assembly,

The jewel of the Gaudiya siddhanta

Adorning your chest so nobly.

 

 

(11) gaura saraswati-sphurtta siddantera khani

aviskrta gayatrira artha-cintamani

 

You are the living message of Sri Gauranga

You are the mine of perfect conclusions;

You revealed the Gayatris inner purport:

The gem fulfilling all aspirations.

 

 

(12) eka-tattva varnanete nitya-nava-bhava

susangati, samanjasya, e saba prabhava.

 

When you speak one subject alone

Is revealed in ever-new light;

Proper adjustment and harmony

All these are your spiritual might.

 

 

(13) tomara satirtha-varga sabe eka-mate

rupa-saraswati-dhara dekhena tomate

 

All your dear Godbrothers

Declare unanimously,

They see within your Holiness

The line of Rupa-Saraswati.

 

 

(14) tulasi-malika-haste sri-nama-grahana

dekhi sakalera haya prabhu uddipana

 

Seeing you take the Holy Name

With Tulasi beads in hand,

Awakens the thought of the Lord

In everybodys mind.

 

 

(15) koti-candra-susitala o padabharasa

gandhava-govinda-lilamrta-labha-asa.

 

Your feet cooling like ten million moons -

In their service all faith do I place;

The nectar of Radha Govindas pastimes

One day we may drink, by your Grace.

 

 

(16) avintya-bhedhabhedha-siddanta-prakasa

sanade arati stuti kare dina-dasa.

 

Personification of perfect conclusions

Inconceivably one, yet different!

I sing this prayer at your arati

With joy your humble servant.

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Srila Sridara Maharaj placed so much emphasis on serving and helping the central math.

True but KB and Goswami Maharaja are also direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Does one have to join SCSM if they are a Prabhupada disciple? Although ISKCON may not be in great shape, Srila Prabhupada did set up his own institution. Prabhupada disciples can get the association and service of devotees like Srila Govinda Maharaja without giving up their identification as Prabhupada disciples. Each Gaudiya Math and Gaudiya Math derivative group puts pressure on members of other Maths to join their group in a formal way. No need for such formality. Furthermore one may have a principal siksa guru but this does not exclude the possibility of a plurality of siksa gurus. The neophyte disciples of these siksa gurus (who are their diksa gurus) are in the same position of Srila Prabhupada's disciples thirty years ago and Sridhar Maharaja's disciples twenty years ago. They need to stay home and not stray from the Math gates. Does one always have to remain a minor?

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In sum when reading through this topic - why almost everyone believes that one can only be a great devotee, preacher and ideal Vaishnava when becoming a diksa-guru and sitting on the vyasasana?

Do you all say: "A great Vaishnava is visiting our temple next week, but is he/she a diksa-guru?"

Seems like everybody believes that they wont listen to a lecture when that devotee is not a diksa-guru. So please show me a quote where Krishna says, "Only a diksa-guru is actually very dear to Me!"

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You always distort the facts and deny the history of how Srila Prabhupada conducted affairs when he was physically before us.

 

that was done out of sheer necessity only.

 

whenever possible, Prabhupada tried to give out his direct association to his disciples as freely as possible. it was his "special" disciples who tried to limit his contacts with rank and file devotees and monopolize Prabhupada for themselves.

 

dont tell me you yourself would not like to have had more direct association with Srila Prabhupada. stop being such a hypocrite.

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I repeat what Kulapavana posted.

 

Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami says in CC Adi 1.58 is indeed valid:

jive sakshat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe

siksha-guru haya krishna-mahanta-svarupe

"Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee".

 

Now you insist that is not so important. However, I prefer to take knowledge from the teachings of great authorities such as Krishnadas Kaviraja goswami.

 

 

The BODY guru addicts are trying their best to neutralize the vani of Srila Prabhupada, but they will never succeed, because the vani of Srila Prabhupada is saving souls everyday and will continue to do so for thousands of years.

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Does one have to join SCSM if they are a Prabhupada disciple? Although ISKCON may not be in great shape, Srila Prabhupada did set up his own institution. Prabhupada disciples can get the association and service of devotees like Srila Govinda Maharaja without giving up their identification as Prabhupada disciples. Each Gaudiya Math and Gaudiya Math derivative group puts pressure on members of other Maths to join their group in a formal way. No need for such formality.

 

good point. here is a good quote from Srila Narayana Maharaja that is very pertinent to this situation:

 

"Here I noticed one Prabhu changed his guru so many times. He also came to me and told that, "I want initiation." I told him that when he's unsatisfied he will also change me. He wanted to take ekadasa-bhava. I know that he's not qualified for this. I know that that guru and that disciple are not qualified also, not qualified for taking ekadasa-bhava.

 

 

All are making so much offences to Krishna. This is guru-aparadha, vaisnava-aparadha, nama-aparadha. We should avoid. Even I know they have changed their guru, Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja. And for this offence, Krishna will have to manage a new, special hell for them. So they are going to hell even. So you should not be like."

http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20001211pm.shtml

 

very sobering words.

 

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Paramahamsa: There's a verse in the Bhägavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...

 

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gitä, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-gitä. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.

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Paramahamsa: There's a verse in the Bhägavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...

 

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gitä, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-gitä. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.

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Paramahamsa: There's a verse in the Bhägavatam that says that one moment's association with a pure devotee is greater than liberation from the material world or than innumerable...

 

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: ...years of enjoyment on heavenly planets.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: My question is: A pure devotee, when he comments Bhagavad-gitä, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with his commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-gitä. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty? Everyone is helping you.

 

Your title is Is there any part of YES that you do not understand?

Another title could be Paramahamsa received the answer YES in a personal conversation with his guru. Both titles convey the truth relative to the aspect we are viewing. Sri Krsna is infinite so there are infinite aspects to all His tattvas or truths. On the other hand there are dulalities such as black and white. But the dualities are all harmonized when we are truly making ourselves proper recipients for the mercy of guru and Krsna. After all we have all come into connection with the divine Sankirtan Movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The fact that we foolish persons are fighting over this issue is proof positive of our lack of qualification and therefore wisdom. We are trying to use our intellect and brain power in the transcendental realm but we will not be successful. Srila Sridhar Maharaj has an elightening exposition on this:

 

Srimad Bhagavatam (7.5.30) it is written:

 

matir na krsne paratah svato va

mitho bhipadyeta grha-vratanam

adanta-gobirvisatam tamisram

punah punas carvita-carvananam

 

 

"Srimad-Bhagavatam
tells us that we can try to enter the world of higher reality through intellectualism, but we will again come back, baffled in our attempts. If we try to press with our intelligence to enter into that domain, we will come back dissatisfied in despair and will wander here within this mortal world again and again.

 

 

sreyah srtim bhaktim udasya te vibho

klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye

tesam asau klesala eva sisyate

nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam

 

 

"O Lord, those who want to have a clear conception of You through their intellect find their attempts useless. Their endeavors end only in frustration, like those who try to beat rice from an empty husk." (
Bhag.
10.14.4)

 

dot_clear.gif"So jnana, knowledge, is like an empty husk. Energy and knowledge are only outer aspects. The real substance, the rice, is devotion–love. That is the tasteful thing within. Other things are covers (jnana-karmady-anavrtam). But what is within the cover is tasteful, eternal, auspicious, and beautiful: satyam, sivam, sundaram. Beauty is reality, ecstasy is reality; everything else is only an outer cover - with the cover, we cannot get the substance within. Then our life becomes a disappointment:."

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I repeat what Kulapavana posted.

 

Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami says in CC Adi 1.58 is indeed valid:

jive sakshat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe

siksha-guru haya krishna-mahanta-svarupe

"Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee".

 

But what has that got to do with all these neophyte devotee that are being passed off as "liberated devotees".

Getting old and growing a beard doesn't automatically qualify one as a liberated soul.

 

The Supersoul appears before us as a liberated devotees, and then he leaves all his teachings and his books to guide us.

 

Srila Prabhupada is that pure devotee that was foretold to by Mahaprabhu to take Krishna bhakti all over the world, and Bhaktivinode anticipated that.

 

Now, the Supersoul has come as the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada and given the world the light of the Bhagavat.

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Krishna Book intro..

 

 

We therefore request everyone to take advantage of this great transcendental literature. One will find that by reading one page after another, an immense treasure of knowledge in art, science, literature, philosophy and religion will be revealed, and ultimately, by reading this one book, Krsna, love of Godhead will fructify.

 

So, this is the legacy that Srila Prabhupada left with his books.

People are reading them and finding love of Godhead.

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