Who has actually been 100 % Authorized to be Guru in ISKCON???

[krsna 3]

Authorized to be Guru

 

 

Nov 28, BHUBANESWAR,Orissa, INDIA —

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja Darshan, Bhubaneswar, India - 11-24-89.

 

 

 

Devotee: Maharaja where did you take sannyasa?

 

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Vrndavana, yes when that Krishna Balarama temple opened on Rama Navami day, you see, that day. I met Srila Prabhupada first in Vrndavana. I took sannyasa in Vrndavana. That is his causeless mercy on me. I have no qualification. I am not such a worthy person, unworthy fellow but he (Srila Prabhupada) showered his mercy on me. When he whispered to me in this room he told me, “You have to accept disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?” He (Srila Prabhupada) told me that."

 

So, then people came, they sought initiation from me but, I was not allowed (by the GBC) to accept disciples at that time and some devotees felt disappointed and left and went to the Gaudiya Math and accepted a spiritual master from there. So I told in GBC that Prabhupada had told me this thing (to initiate my own men). They said, “What is proof ?” I then said, “Proof is myself, Srila Prabhupada told me in my ear. It’s not recorded on a machine, but recorded deep in my heart.” But in his first letter to me, Prabhupada has also mentioned this same thing. You have seen that first letter?

 

Disciple: We went through the letter books, its there.

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: I have those books, but I don’t know?. . . . but I have that letter, first letter. In that letter Prabhupada mentioned, “Under your leadership, under your leadership, under your leadership. . .” Three times he has mentioned this thing that this Bhubaneswar will be developed like that. I showed that letter in the GBC. I said, “This is the letter. If I won’t be a leader, then how can I do it?” Then they allowed and I told them emphatically, “If you may not allow, but I must carry out the order of my spiritual master, I must do it.” They were frightened. I was so strong. Then they finally allowed me.

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Yes, that is the process. Because I am obeying the orders of my spiritual master. I am collecting or training men for my spiritual master’s mission, do you understand? As my spiritual master (Srila Prabhupada) told me, “You must have your own disciples. You must train them, you must have your own men, otherwise how will you manage?” Why did he tell such thing? So disciples, as my disciple they are grand disciple of Prabhupada, do you understand? But I am collecting men for my spiritual master to fulfill his desire in his mission. So I say, this is quite logical saying, “I am accepting for my spiritual master. You are all his men, and my spiritual master is sending you to me, to get training from me. Under my guidance you should work. That is the process. Do you understand? This is the vaisnava philosophy and this is the humble way because vaisnava is humble.

[Guruvani 0]

Sounds to me like Srila Prabhupada wanted Gaura Govinda Maharaja to do all that outside ISKCON.

Otherwise, why was Srila Prabhupada saying to Gaura Govinda Maharaja "how will you manage".

Heck, in ISKCON he would have had a cushy room and Maha plates, so what would be the problem to manage?

 

Prabhupada was telling him that if he accepted disciples that they would have to support him and that ISKCON would not.

 

Honestly, that is what I hear, even in the words of Gaura Govinda Maharaja.

[Guest guest]

LOL ... what next?

 

 

Sounds to me like Srila Prabhupada wanted Gaura Govinda Maharaja to do all that outside ISKCON.

Otherwise, why was Srila Prabhupada saying to Gaura Govinda Maharaja "how will you manage".

Heck, in ISKCON he would have had a cushy room and Maha plates, so what would be the problem to manage?

 

Prabhupada was telling him that if he accepted disciples that they would have to support him and that ISKCON would not.

 

Honestly, that is what I hear, even in the words of Gaura Govinda Maharaja.

[Guest guest]

Many great personalitites in ISKCON were empowered by Srila Prabhupada to accept disciples and deliver fallen souls. And certainly, His Holiness was one of them. A truly exalted personality.

 

 

Authorized to be Guru

 

Nov 28, BHUBANESWAR,Orissa, INDIA —

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja Darshan, Bhubaneswar, India - 11-24-89.

 

Devotee: Maharaja where did you take sannyasa?

 

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Vrndavana, yes when that Krishna Balarama temple opened on Rama Navami day, you see, that day. I met Srila Prabhupada first in Vrndavana. I took sannyasa in Vrndavana. That is his causeless mercy on me. I have no qualification. I am not such a worthy person, unworthy fellow but he (Srila Prabhupada) showered his mercy on me. When he whispered to me in this room he told me, “You have to accept disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?” He (Srila Prabhupada) told me that."

 

So, then people came, they sought initiation from me but, I was not allowed (by the GBC) to accept disciples at that time and some devotees felt disappointed and left and went to the Gaudiya Math and accepted a spiritual master from there. So I told in GBC that Prabhupada had told me this thing (to initiate my own men). They said, “What is proof ?” I then said, “Proof is myself, Srila Prabhupada told me in my ear. It’s not recorded on a machine, but recorded deep in my heart.” But in his first letter to me, Prabhupada has also mentioned this same thing. You have seen that first letter?

 

Disciple: We went through the letter books, its there.

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: I have those books, but I don’t know?. . . . but I have that letter, first letter. In that letter Prabhupada mentioned, “Under your leadership, under your leadership, under your leadership. . .” Three times he has mentioned this thing that this Bhubaneswar will be developed like that. I showed that letter in the GBC. I said, “This is the letter. If I won’t be a leader, then how can I do it?” Then they allowed and I told them emphatically, “If you may not allow, but I must carry out the order of my spiritual master, I must do it.” They were frightened. I was so strong. Then they finally allowed me.

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Yes, that is the process. Because I am obeying the orders of my spiritual master. I am collecting or training men for my spiritual master’s mission, do you understand? As my spiritual master (Srila Prabhupada) told me, “You must have your own disciples. You must train them, you must have your own men, otherwise how will you manage?” Why did he tell such thing? So disciples, as my disciple they are grand disciple of Prabhupada, do you understand? But I am collecting men for my spiritual master to fulfill his desire in his mission. So I say, this is quite logical saying, “I am accepting for my spiritual master. You are all his men, and my spiritual master is sending you to me, to get training from me. Under my guidance you should work. That is the process. Do you understand? This is the vaisnava philosophy and this is the humble way because vaisnava is humble.

[Kulapavana 0]

did Prabhupada's disciples check the existing records to make sure he was authorized by his guru to initiate before THEY accepted him as their guru? why do they now make such demands on others?

 

is it motivated by their envy of Vaishnavas who find faith in exalted evotees like GGM? or the envy of exalted devotees like GGM who accept the burden of guiding others to Krsna?

 

demand of others only what you demand of yourself.

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

demand of others only what you demand of yourself.

Yes, very insightful. The alternative is to drown in an ocean of faultfinding.

[Bhakta Harry 0]

 

Authorized to be Guru

 

 

Nov 28, BHUBANESWAR,Orissa, INDIA —

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja Darshan, Bhubaneswar, India - 11-24-89.

 

 

 

Devotee: Maharaja where did you take sannyasa?

 

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Vrndavana, yes when that Krishna Balarama temple opened on Rama Navami day, you see, that day. I met Srila Prabhupada first in Vrndavana. I took sannyasa in Vrndavana. That is his causeless mercy on me. I have no qualification. I am not such a worthy person, unworthy fellow but he (Srila Prabhupada) showered his mercy on me. When he whispered to me in this room he told me, “You have to accept disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?” He (Srila Prabhupada) told me that."

 

So, then people came, they sought initiation from me but, I was not allowed (by the GBC) to accept disciples at that time and some devotees felt disappointed and left and went to the Gaudiya Math and accepted a spiritual master from there. So I told in GBC that Prabhupada had told me this thing (to initiate my own men). They said, “What is proof ?” I then said, “Proof is myself, Srila Prabhupada told me in my ear. It’s not recorded on a machine, but recorded deep in my heart.” But in his first letter to me, Prabhupada has also mentioned this same thing. You have seen that first letter?

 

Disciple: We went through the letter books, its there.

 

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: I have those books, but I don’t know?. . . . but I have that letter, first letter. In that letter Prabhupada mentioned, “Under your leadership, under your leadership, under your leadership. . .” Three times he has mentioned this thing that this Bhubaneswar will be developed like that. I showed that letter in the GBC. I said, “This is the letter. If I won’t be a leader, then how can I do it?” Then they allowed and I told them emphatically, “If you may not allow, but I must carry out the order of my spiritual master, I must do it.” They were frightened. I was so strong. Then they finally allowed me.

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: Yes, that is the process. Because I am obeying the orders of my spiritual master. I am collecting or training men for my spiritual master’s mission, do you understand? As my spiritual master (Srila Prabhupada) told me, “You must have your own disciples. You must train them, you must have your own men, otherwise how will you manage?” Why did he tell such thing? So disciples, as my disciple they are grand disciple of Prabhupada, do you understand? But I am collecting men for my spiritual master to fulfill his desire in his mission. So I say, this is quite logical saying, “I am accepting for my spiritual master. You are all his men, and my spiritual master is sending you to me, to get training from me. Under my guidance you should work. That is the process. Do you understand? This is the vaisnava philosophy and this is the humble way because vaisnava is humble.

 

 

 

 

 

"They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said." (Letter, Omkara, 75-09-02)

[Beggar 0]

 

 

"They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said." (Letter, Omkara, 75-09-02)

Many instructions are for time, place and circumstance. If Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja's disciples and others see him as a pure devotee then they will believe what he has said. Who would expect otherwise. But its O.K. if you if don't have faith in that person but do have faith in Srila Prabhupada to apply the "in writing" rule for yourself. No harm.

[Guest guest]

I agree with you here. It should be in writing and it is in Srila Prabhupada's books that the parampara will continue

 

 

 

"They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that "Prabhupada said." (Letter, Omkara, 75-09-02)

[Guest guest]

If one analyzed the shiia / sunni rift in the islamic world, they would see the plight of wars over succeeding spiritual authorities. The sunnis say muhammed is the guru for all, forever, where the shiias say that muhammed had a bonafide successor who had entire authority of muhammed himself.

 

So, now we have our own battle in the beginning stage, where nothing will ever be resolved. Did prabhupada invest his full authority in his disciples, or does he claim to be the only guru from now on?

 

I have the answer, do you? Mahaksadasa

[Sridas 0]

What like this:

 

 

"One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving

service of the Lord simply by reading books... One must accept a Vaisnava guru

(adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually

learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara

system." (Cc. Antya-lila 7.53, purp.) — AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[Sridas 0]

[Guruvani 0]

Introduction to BG AsIt Is

 

 

In life we are accustomed to thinking either of the material or the spiritual energy. There are so many literatures which fill our thoughts with the material energy—newspapers, novels, etc. Our thinking, which is now absorbed in these literatures, must be transferred to the Vedic literatures. The great sages, therefore, have written so many Vedic literatures such as the Puräëas, etc. The Puräëas are not imaginative; they are historical records. In the Caitanya-caritämåta there is the following verse:

mäyä mugdha jéver nähi svataù kåñëa-jïäna

jévera kåpäya kailä kåñëa veda-puräëa

(Cc. Madhya 20.122)

The forgetful living entities or conditioned souls have forgotten their relationship with the Supreme Lord, and they are engrossed in thinking of material activities. Just to transfer their thinking power to the spiritual sky, Kåñëa has given a great number of Vedic literatures. First He divided the Vedas into four, then He explained them in the Puräëas, and for less capable people He wrote the Mahäbhärata. In the Mahäbhärata there is given the Bhagavad-gétä. Then all Vedic literature is summarized in the Vedänta-sütra, and for future guidance He gave a natural commentation on the Vedänta-sutra, called Çrémad-Bhägavatam. We must always engage our minds in reading these Vedic literatures. Just as materialists engage their minds in reading newspapers, magazines and so many materialistic literatures, we must transfer our reading to these literatures which are given to us by Vyäsadeva; in that way it will be possible for us to remember the Supreme Lord at the time of death. That is the only way suggested by the Lord, and He guarantees the result: “There is no doubt.” (Bg. 8.7)

tasmät sarveñu käleñu mäm anusmara yudhya ca

mayy arpita-mano-buddhir mäm evaiñyasy asaàçayaù

“Therefore, Arjuna, you should always think of Me, and at the same time you should continue your prescribed duty and fight. With your mind and activities always fixed on Me, and everything engaged in Me, you will attain to Me without any doubt.”

[Sridas 0]

[Guruvani 0]

 

What like this:

 

 

"One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving

service of the Lord simply by reading books... One must accept a Vaisnava guru

(adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually

learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara

system." (Cc. Antya-lila 7.53, purp.) — AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

The presentation of this quote is the perfect example of how taking a statement out of context can actually be used to arrive at a conclusion that the author never intended.

 

This statement of Srila Prabhupada was made in response to the topic of Vallabha Bhatta who was a Sanskrit scholar who wrote a commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam that actually went against the commentary of Sridhar Swami.

In fact, the whole issue was that Vallabha Bhatta had neglected the commentary of Sridhar Svami and had offered his own explanation.

In this way, he was neglecting the parampara commentary and trying to establish his own commentary.

 

He was reading Srimad Bhagavatam without accepting the commentary and explanations of the acharyas.

 

In this way, without accepting the commentaries and explanations of the acharyas, one cannot understand Srimad Bhagavatam with Sanskrit scholarship.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains later in the chapter what he meant.

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam has many tikas, or commentaries, following the parampara system, but Sridhara Svami's is first. The commentaries of all the other acaryas follow his. The parampara system does not allow one to deviate from the commentaries of the previous acaryas. By depending upon the previous acaryas, one can write beautiful commentaries. However, one cannot defy the previous acaryas. The false pride that makes one think that he can write better than the previous acaryas will make one's comments faulty. At the present moment it has become fashionable for everyone to write in his own way, but such writing is never accepted by serious devotees. Because of false pride, every scholar and philosopher wants to exhibit his learning by interpreting the sastras, especially Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, in his own way. This system of commenting in one's own way is fully condemned by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore He says, 'artha-vyasta' likhana sei. Commentaries written according to one's own philosophical way are never accepted; no one will appreciate such commentaries on the revealed scriptures.

So, please don't use that statement out of context and try to minimize the foundation of Srila Prabhupada's movement - his books.

 

Every disciple he ever had could die, but Krishna consciousness could still go on through reading the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

If one accepts the purports of Srila Prabhupada, then he HAS accepted the spiritual master and through reading the books and all the questions and answers that are in the books, then he can understand things properly.

 

If one wants to read Sanskrit and study shastra without accepting the parampara explanation, then he will be unsuccessful.

[Sridas 0]

 

The presentation of this quote is the perfect example of how taking a statement out of context can actually be used to arrive at a conclusion that the author never intended.

 

This statement of Srila Prabhupada was made in response to the topic of Vallabha Bhatta who was a Sanskrit scholar who wrote a commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam that actually went against the commentary of Sridhar Swami.

In fact, the whole issue was that Vallabha Bhatta had neglected the commentary of Sridhar Svami and had offered his own explanation.

In this way, he was neglecting the parampara commentary and trying to establish his own commentary.

 

He was reading Srimad Bhagavatam without accepting the commentary and explanations of the acharyas.

 

Sounds familiar

 

In this way, without accepting the commentaries and explanations of the acharyas, one cannot understand Srimad Bhagavatam with Sanskrit scholarship.

 

I agree wholeheartedly

 

 

Srila Prabhupada explains later in the chapter what he meant.

So, please don't use that statement out of context and try to minimize the foundation of Srila Prabhupada's movement - his books.

 

 

The foundation of Srila Prabhupads movement which is actually Lord Chaitanya's movement, is his love and devotion to the will of His Lord and the Holy Names, books no matter how glorious are subject to misinterpretation and change with time, and usually that is precisely what happens,with most of the scriptures on this planet. But just as the Lord empowered Srila Prabhupad He can likewise empower anyone else at any time if need be, and if He so desires.

 

Every disciple he ever had could die, but Krishna consciousness could still go on through reading the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

The reality is that he is dynamic-present tense not a point in history, and Krsna Consciousness is dynamic and will go on regardless of any jivas input or lack thereof on this planet or any other. Also as Srila Sridara Maharaj told, what that great messiah has done, shan't be diminished in but a few short generations, it will flourish not only in this universe but in others also.

Furthermore vaisnavas don't die, and those who don't understand that have'nt lived.

 

If one accepts the purports of Srila Prabhupada, then he HAS accepted the spiritual master and through reading the books and all the questions and answers that are in the books, then he can understand things properly.

 

That's not exactly the way I've heard it from Srila Sridara Maharaj, regarding divine transmission and visa into that domain.

But if someone does manage to enter those living conclusions on their own strength, we are happily looking forward to them practicing that which they have imbibed, their insights that should translate in the form of caring, and sharing their honorable and affectionate dealings with the environment.

I'm sure we all look forward to being recipients of such grace.

 

If one wants to read Sanskrit and study shastra without accepting the parampara explanation, then he will be unsuccessful.

[Guest guest]

 

What like this:

 

 

"One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving

service of the Lord simply by reading books... One must accept a Vaisnava guru

(adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually

learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara

system." (Cc. Antya-lila 7.53, purp.) — AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

It should be clear that the phrase "simply by reading books", doesnt refer to reading Prabhupada's books and "by questions and answers", Prabhupada refers to asking questiuons within the system of his spiritual institution which was originally set up by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja, with every three years newly voted GBC members and temple president that are voted by the members of a temple. In sum a transparent institutional system which doesnt allow any corruption virus/trojan to be installed within the ISKCON management.

[Guruvani 0]

 

It should be clear that the phrase "simply by reading books", doesnt refer to reading Prabhupada's books and "by questions and answers", Prabhupada refers to asking questiuons within the system of his spiritual institution which was originally set up by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja, with every three years newly voted GBC members and temple president that are voted by the members of a temple. In sum a transparent institutional system which doesnt allow any corruption virus/trojan to be installed within the ISKCON management.

 

It's quite obvious that the shastra must be studied in light of the explanations of the acharyas.

the comment Srila Prabhupada made in that purport that was taken out of context, specifically addressed the issue of studying shastra without guidance from the authorized commentaries.

Vallabha Bhatta was taking the Sanskrit verses of Srimad Bhagavatam alone, without the proper commentary or purport and then giving some commentary in disregard of the recognized acharyas.

 

You can't understand shastra without the guidance of the pure devotees.

The books of Srila Prabhupada are replete with proper commentary and explanation of the acharyas so that there is no chance of misunderstanding the texts.

 

The purports of Srila Prabhupada are THE MOST intimate and scientific form of associating with him.

Hanging our bags of stool in the proximity of the spiritual master's body is not what is meant by accepting a spiritual master.

 

Srila Prabhupada made it clear that he never spend more than a few hours total in the physical presence of his spiritual master and this his principle connection was with the vani of his gurudeva.

 

Srila Prabhupada's intimacy with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was in the form of associating with his vani.

The amount of service Srila Prabhupada performed to the vapu of his gurudeva was almost nil!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And, we can see that he was quite successful in spiritual life by taking the vani of his guru as his life and soul.

 

He was never a groupie to hang around the Matha and be in the physical presence of his guru.

He was busy studying the books and commentaries on the Vaishnava scriptures.

 

Most all the guru groupies we have seen in the last two generations of acharyas have been the one's to do the most harm to the missions of the guru, while the more distant disciples accomplished the inner desire of the guru.

 

The vapu of the guru is like the cover of the book.

We have to open the book and get the vani to really get the value of the book.

Polishing the cover amounts to almost nothing.

[Guest guest]

 

It's quite obvious that the shastra must be studied in light of the explanations of the acharyas.

the comment Srila Prabhupada made in that purport that was taken out of context, specifically addressed the issue of studying shastra without guidance from the authorized commentaries.

Vallabha Bhatta was taking the Sanskrit verses of Srimad Bhagavatam alone, without the proper commentary or purport and then giving some commentary in disregard of the recognized acharyas.

 

You can't understand shastra without the guidance of the pure devotees.

The books of Srila Prabhupada are replete with proper commentary and explanation of the acharyas so that there is no chance of misunderstanding the texts.

 

The purports of Srila Prabhupada are THE MOST intimate and scientific form of associating with him.

Hanging our bags of stool in the proximity of the spiritual master's body is not what is meant by accepting a spiritual master.

 

Srila Prabhupada made it clear that he never spend more than a few hours total in the physical presence of his spiritual master and this his principle connection was with the vani of his gurudeva.

 

Srila Prabhupada's intimacy with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was in the form of associating with his vani.

The amount of service Srila Prabhupada performed to the vapu of his gurudeva was almost nil!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And, we can see that he was quite successful in spiritual life by taking the vani of his guru as his life and soul.

 

He was never a groupie to hang around the Matha and be in the physical presence of his guru.

He was busy studying the books and commentaries on the Vaishnava scriptures.

 

Most all the guru groupies we have seen in the last two generations of acharyas have been the one's to do the most harm to the missions of the guru, while the more distant disciples accomplished the inner desire of the guru.

 

The vapu of the guru is like the cover of the book.

We have to open the book and get the vani to really get the value of the book.

Polishing the cover amounts to almost nothing.

 

Reply to "Authorized to be Guru"

BY: NAVADVIPCHANDRA DASA

 

Regarding the statement shown by Murali Krishna Swami, wherein Gaur Govinda Maharaj says Srila Prabhupada instructed him to become a diksha guru, I would like to offer the following comments:

 

"You have to accept disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?" He (Srila Prabhupada) told me that." - Gaur Govinda Maharaj

 

First, there are over half a dozen current ISKCON gurus who make these same claims, that Srila Prabhupada secretly instructed them to become diksha gurus. Jayapataka Swami, Radha Govinda Swami and Gaur Govinda Swami are some of the main people who have made these claims. In all cases there is no recorded evidence to back up the claim. Srila Prabhupada apparently has given ISKCON its most important instruction on continued management in a secret unrecorded whisper with no witnesses.

 

Srila Prabhupada himself has several times said, "if it's not there in writing, then do not believe what 'Prabhupada Said'." So taking his own direct advice, we would have to generally not value such statements as evidence of any sort. But for the sake of argument, let us study this latest claim logically and see if it makes any sense.

 

One must assume the language being spoken between Srila Prabhupada and Gaur Govinda Maharaj would be either Hindi or Bengali, and in both cases the word that would have been used for "disciples" would have been "sishya". In common usage this word does not at all convey the idea of a diksha guru, but rather of assistants or students working under someone. This word is universally found in all languages of India, and it conveys the same meaning in all languages. Certainly the word _can_ be used to indicate a diksha disciple, but the common usage would indicate an assistant or student under a leader as opposed to a diksha disciple. Keeping this in mind, let us see Srila Prabhupada's words again:

 

"You have to accept disciples and train them. You should have your own men, your own disciples. Otherwise how can you manage?" He (Srila Prabhupada) told me that." - Gaur Govinda Maharaj

 

Srila Prabhupada's use of the phrase "you should have your own men, otherwise how can you manage" make it abundantly clear that he is speaking of management and physical work. The sishyas that he wants Gaur Govinda Maharaj to have are obviously just regular devotees who will work under him and help him develop the Bhubaneshwar project that Prabhupada entrusted to him.

 

What is the actual reason one should become diksha guru? Is it simply to lessen the work load? "Become diksha guru, because there is a lot of physical work to get done and no people to work." Is that the instruction Srila Prabhupada was giving to Gaur Govinda Maharaj? Obviously not. One becomes diksha guru only to deliver pure devotion to conditioned souls, not to make the management of a temple project easier. Thus it becomes obvious that Srila Prabhupada's use of the word "sishya" was in the common indian usage, refering to assistants working and studying under Gaur Govinda Maharaj, but in no way implied he should become a diksha guru.

 

At the time that this whisper was secretly spoken by Srila Prabhupada to Gaur Govinda Maharaj, Srila Prabhupada was the only undisputed Acharya in ISKCON, without anyone even considering the need for a replacement. Does this above claim make any logical sense? That Srila Prabhupada at this time, in a secret whisper while passing by Gaur Govinda Maharaj, told him to become the next Acharya in such unclear language? And this is the absolute proof that is offered to the worldwide devotee community. I do not doubt that such a statement may have been made by Srila Prabhupada, but the interpretation that it refers to becoming the next acharya and diksha guru is a huge stretch from the direct interpretation and self evident meaning.

 

"You should have your own men, otherwise how can you manage."

 

Further Gaur Govinda Maharaj states:

 

"I was not allowed (by the GBC) to accept disciples at that time and some devotees felt disappointed and left and went to the Gaudiya Math and accepted a spiritual master from there."

 

I would further offer, if his prospective disciples were so whimsical as to immediately leave him and take initiation from the Gaudiya Matha, then he obviously had not inspired them or trained them properly. Was the reason he became a diksha guru simply to stop people from leaving him and going to the Gaudiya Math? Obviously it is not clear, but the argument that he presents here does not appear to be very strong and convincing.

[Guruvani 0]

It's also quite interesting that Srila Prabhupada did not consider that any of his Godbrothers were qualified to be guru, with the possible exception of a couple.

So, none of these high class Vaishnava devotees that many came from devotee familes and were good scholars and devotees, who were the close physical associates of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur were qualified to be spiritual masters, yet we are supposed to believe that a bunch of ex-hippies and derelicts from the USA who had been trying to be devotees for 10 years were qualified to be gurus in the opinion of Srila Prabhupada?

 

I seriously doubt that if Srila Prabhupada did not consider none of the big sannyasis of the Gaudiya Matha, many of whom had been devotees all their lives, to be guru, that he felt his tribe of neophyte american boys were qualified spiritual masters.

 

as such..... he felt it prudent to establish a ritvik system for his formal diksha system in ISKCON.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Further Gaur Govinda Maharaj states:

 

"I was not allowed (by the GBC) to accept disciples at that time and some devotees felt disappointed and left and went to the Gaudiya Math and accepted a spiritual master from there."

The fact that he allowed that gang to boss him around when he felt he was supposed to be guru, says something.

 

If Krishna is telling you to be guru, Prabhupada telling you to be guru and the GBC telling you NOT to be guru, I think it is quite obvious that one should leave the jurisdiction of the GBC and be guru....

 

There comes a time when one might need to give up his cushy quarters and the maha-plates to rough it out, tuff-it-out and do what one is being inspired to do.

 

If the GBC was telling him NOT to do what he said Prabhupada told him to do, then why was he obeying the GBC instead of Srila Prabhupada?

[Guest guest]

 

........yet we are supposed to believe that a bunch of ex-hippies and derelicts from the USA who had been trying to be devotees for 10 years were qualified to be gurus...

 

This becomes even more apparent when there're difficult situations to be solved. Instead of putting trust in Prabhupada and Krishna, trust is placed in Bollywood actress Hema: "Hema is a devotee. She will help to get us right back on the right track."

Nice logic on the ISKCON guru board!

 

 

Update from India, 30th

November 30th, 2006

 

As the press secretary for the Indian preaching team Braja Sevaki reports from Delhi:

 

- Indradyumna Swami and Rati Manjari met with ISKCON RGB members, who

pledged financial support. Actually the entire worldwide community of ISKCON

needs to put their support behind this, and IDS is requesting press packs to

be sent to all international centres to bring them up to date and ask them

for help.

 

- Mahamantra prabhu from Delhi has arranged for us to meet with Hema Malini

tonight. Hema is a devotee, and also happens to be one of

Bollywood’s mot recognized and famous stars in India and abroad. She is also

a member of parliament. Currently Hema is on the campaign trail, and

tomorrow will be in Varanasi. She will be holding a press conference and

speaking about the Kaz issue. We may be joining her in Varanasi, but that

will be decided tonight. She’s keen to help and we know when she sees the

footage of the destruction and the photos, she will be moved to help. The

video footage of the bulldozing of houses has a very powerful effect on

everyone who sees it.

 

- We’re arranging a press conference for next week, and we are assembling a

delegation of people who might approach the President on friendly terms to

discuss some changes to the relationships of Government and religion in Kaz.

 

- Daily we’re arranging for IDS and Rati to meet with people; we’re now

providing them materials and backup. The press conference in Bombay was a

success, but they didn’t have anyone working the room and filling in the

gaps, making sure everyone had press packs, etc: Maharaja and Rati were too

busy giving interviews. Urvasi, from the interfaith foundation here, is

making contact with influential people in India to meet with IDS and Rati.

 

- Govinda Maharaja returns tomorrow and will meet with IDS and SRS (in a

phone conference) and discuss the future of the campaign.

[Guest guest]

 

Many great personalitites in ISKCON were empowered by Srila Prabhupada to accept disciples and deliver fallen souls. And certainly, His Holiness was one of them. A truly exalted personality.

 

Er, well many great personalities unauthorisedly assumed guruship, accepted disciples and then fell down - Jayatirtha, Bhagavan, Bhavananda, Satsvarupa, Ramesvara, Kirtanananda, Harikesa, Jagdisha, Suhotra, Prthu...

 

"But sometimes, if a spiritual master is not properly authorized and only on his own initiative becomes a spiritual master, he maybe carried away by an accumulation of wealth and large numbers of disciples." (Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 14).

[Guest guest]

Those that 'fell down' have done more for Srila Prabhupada than you and I could imagine.

 

In any case, we're not worried about those that fell down. We should aspire to follow in the foot steps of those that have taken His divine grace's instructions to heart and there are many of them today in ISKCON.

 

 

Er, well many great personalities unauthorisedly assumed guruship, accepted disciples and then fell down - Jayatirtha, Bhagavan, Bhavananda, Satsvarupa, Ramesvara, Kirtanananda, Harikesa, Jagdisha, Suhotra, Prthu...

 

"But sometimes, if a spiritual master is not properly authorized and only on his own initiative becomes a spiritual master, he maybe carried away by an accumulation of wealth and large numbers of disciples." (Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 14).

[Beggar 0]

 

I seriously doubt that if Srila Prabhupada did not consider none of the big sannyasis of the Gaudiya Matha, many of whom had been devotees all their lives, to be guru, that he felt his tribe of neophyte american boys were qualified spiritual masters.

 

This obviously wouldn't apply to Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja. He clearly wasn't a part of, "his tribe of neophyte american boys". Maybe H.H. Gopal Krsna Maharaja caught the American bug when he was living in New York in the 1970s? Generally I agree with your assesment of the "tribe". Don't forget the tribe within the tribe. It seems like the definition of a rtvik guru becomes, "a marginally qualified guru". I have always considered Srila Prabhupada's criticism of his godbrothers that they were not qualified to be acarya to be a statement made in the heat of battle during his preaching campaign. At the end of his manifest lila he explained this fully. There's much irony in the use of the titles, Srila - His Divine Grace, Sripad - His Holiness, and Prabhu - master or Lord. In one sense Phabhu is a very exalted title and was never used to refer to guru bhai and sisyas until the time of Srila Saraswati Thakur. It was reserved for Nityananda and Advaita "Prabhus". Have you ever heard, "don't call me Prabhu, I'm a Maharaja!" Very silly. The rtvik thing is basically a reaction to silly folks thinking that they are exalted souls and even more silly people buying into it. Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers were not "silly folks". There are many exalted Gaudiya Vaisnavas from Bharatavarsha living in in this world at present and some of them are young enough to be Srila Prabhupada's disciple's children.