theist Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 SB 11.11.1: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava, due to the influence of the material modes of nature, which are under My control, the living entity is sometimes designated as conditioned and sometimes as liberated. In fact, however, the soul is never really bound up or liberated, and since I am the supreme Lord of māyā, which is the cause of the modes of nature, I also am never to be considered liberated or in bondage. SB 11.11.2: Just as a dream is merely a creation of one's intelligence but has no actual substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and the acceptance of the material body under the influence of mayā are all creations of My illusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality. SB 11.11.3: O Uddhava, both knowledge and ignorance, being products of māyā, are expansions of My potency. Both knowledge and ignorance are beginningless and perpetually award liberation and bondage to embodied living beings. SB 11.11.4: O most intelligent Uddhava, the living entity, called jīva, is part and parcel of Me, but due to ignorance he has been suffering in material bondage since time immemorial. By knowledge, however, he can be liberated. SB 11.11.5: Thus, My dear Uddhava, in the same material body we find opposing characteristics, such as great happiness and misery. That is because both the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is eternally liberated, as well as the conditioned soul are within the body. I shall now speak to you about their different characteristics. SB 11.11.6: By chance, two birds have made a nest together in the same tree. The two birds are friends and are of a similar nature. One of them, however, is eating the fruits of the tree, whereas the other, who does not eat the fruits, is in a superior position due to His potency. SB 11.11.7: The bird who does not eat the fruits of the tree is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who by His omniscience perfectly understands His own position and that of the conditioned living entity, represented by the eating bird. That living entity, on the other hand, does not understand himself or the Lord. He is covered by ignorance and is thus called eternally conditioned, whereas the Personality of Godhead, being full of perfect knowledge, is eternally liberated. SB 11.11.8: One who is enlightened in self-realization, although living within the material body, sees himself as transcendental to the body, just as one who has arisen from a dream gives up identification with the dream body. A foolish person, however, although not identical with his material body but transcendental to it, thinks himself to be situated in the body, just as one who is dreaming sees himself as situated in an imaginary body. SB 11.11.9: An enlightened person who is free from the contamination of material desire does not consider himself to be the performer of bodily activities; rather, he knows that in all such activities it is only the senses, born of the modes of nature, that are contacting sense objects born of the same modes of nature. SB 11.11.10: An unintelligent person situated within the body created by his previous fruitive activities thinks, "I am the performer of action." Bewildered by false ego, such a foolish person is therefore bound up by fruitive activities, which are in fact carried out by the modes of nature. SB 11.11.11: An enlightened person fixed in detachment engages his body in lying down, sitting, walking, bathing, seeing, touching, smelling, eating, hearing and so on, but is never entangled by such activities. Indeed, remaining as a witness to all bodily functions, he merely engages his bodily senses with their objects and does not become entangled like an unintelligent person. SB 11.11.12-13: Although the sky, or space, is the resting place of everything, the sky does not mix with anything, nor is it entangled. Similarly, the sun is not at all attached to the water in which it is reflected within innumerable reservoirs, and the mighty wind blowing everywhere is not affected by the innumerable aromas and atmospheres through which it passes. In the same way, a self-realized soul is completely detached from the material body and the material world around it. He is like a person who has awakened and arisen from a dream. With expert vision sharpened by detachment, the self-realized soul cuts all doubts to pieces through knowledge of the self and completely withdraws his consciousness from the expansion of material variety. SB 11.11.14: A person is considered to be completely liberated from the gross and subtle material bodies when all the functions of his vital energy, senses, mind and intelligence are performed without material desire. Such a person, although situated within the body, is not entangled. SB 11.11.15: Sometimes for no apparent reason one's body is attacked by cruel people or violent animals. At other times and in other places, one will suddenly be offered great respect or worship. One who becomes neither angry when attacked nor satisfied when worshiped is actually intelligent. SB 11.11.16: A saintly sage sees with equal vision and therefore is not affected by that which is materially good or bad. Indeed, although he observes others performing good and bad work and speaking properly and improperly, the sage does not praise or criticize anyone. SB 11.11.17: For the purpose of maintaining his body, a liberated sage should not act, speak or contemplate in terms of material good or bad. Rather, he should be detached in all material circumstances, and taking pleasure in self-realization, he should wander about engaged in this liberated life-style, appearing like a retarded person to outsiders. 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Guest guest Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Hi, this is all very nice but i have to be honest, I can't do it. its not possible for me to be so strong as to not even feel sad when I have problems, nor am I capable to stay detached from joy if something good happens in my life. I can't help but think that its my fault if something does not work out, and I can't help but feel powerful when something works out in my favor. I think I am being completely honest when I say God wants the impossible from us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srimanta Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Hi, this is all very nice but i have to be honest, I can't do it. its not possible for me to be so strong as to not even feel sad when I have problems, nor am I capable to stay detached from joy if something good happens in my life. I can't help but think that its my fault if something does not work out, and I can't help but feel powerful when something works out in my favor. I think I am being completely honest when I say God wants the impossible from us. That's why Lord Gournaga Mohaprbhu is so merciful. Take Hari <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>Nam</st1:place></st1:country-region> and chant always, if you are busy then allow other to chant and you listen. Without Hari <st1:country-region><st1:place>Nam</st1:place></st1:country-region> everything is impossible. That's why Prabhupada said Hari <st1:country-region><st1:place>Nam</st1:place></st1:country-region> kebolom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Hi, this is all very nice but i have to be honest, I can't do it. its not possible for me to be so strong as to not even feel sad when I have problems, nor am I capable to stay detached from joy if something good happens in my life. I can't help but think that its my fault if something does not work out, and I can't help but feel powerful when something works out in my favor. I think I am being completely honest when I say God wants the impossible from us. It is natural to act in a dream as a dreamer as long as we are still dreaming. We cannot artifically act on the platform of the awakened while we are still asleep. What is being described by Krsna is how WE will naturally act and responded to external stimulus once we have woken up. Obtaining Krsna's mercy is the path to waking up. What you read in Krsna's words should bring you joy because He is describing your future state brother Redfox. In fact we all share this destiny and even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Today where I live we had a major power blackout for over six hours. 50,000 people were without power. The reaction was very significant, as it was expected that we may have been without electricity for up to two days. My neighbour, who sits and listens to the radio most days, approached me quite distressed. He said, "what are we going to do, this is awful, it is stressing me out alot?" I asked what the difficulty was and he said it was 'the silence'. That he did not realize before, the amount of noise going on in his head. I am sure there must have been many ditressed people in town. Fortunately emergency workers got things going tonight. But it was such a surreal experience. During the day I followed my usual routine of japa and reading Caitanya Bhagavata, with the mind caught up in the nectar of Krsna consciousness. At peace. But for the sake of everything running smoothly we are all glad things are back to normal. Theist, these verses you posted are very wonderful. The gradual awakening of such knowledge is sublime. Even more wonderful is that scripture states love of God when tasted makes liberation very insignificant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avasa Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 If all is really SEEN to be a dream then where is the one that does anything? In a dream there is doing but no doer for there is dreaming but no dreamer. Redsoxs there is no YOU who can do anything for all that is taking place is being done by the One. Everything that has ever taken place through that form and all that is happening now and all that is to happen is not being done by an individual but by the only One that actually exists AS the dream. We, as these apparent separate forms are simply dreamed objects and all that these forms do is of the nature of the dream, all is happening spontaneously, all is arising without prior plan now and now and now from the eternal nothingness. All is already the only way that it can be and there is nothing that an imagnined individual can or need do to chaneg anything. When the realisation that the individual separate one does not actually exist dawns then all is seen to be One Self manifesting. This realisation is enlightenment. Be of good cheer my friend for Life is living you. Love Avasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 If all is really SEEN to be a dream then where is the one that does anything?In a dream there is doing but no doer for there is dreaming but no dreamer. Excuse me for being so blunt but this idea of no dreamer is pure nonsense. One man one night dreams of climbing a mountain made of gold. That same night another man dreams of being eaten by a tiger. One person has one experience and another has a completely different experience. Why? Obviously because there are two individual dreamers experiencing two different dreams. Now in both cases the dreams are illusion but they also have their own temporary existence as dreams. And that is experienced by each of us individually as dreamers. It is foolish to think that because we are not the bodies formed in a dream that therefore we do not exist. One conclusion does not lead to the other. People in a theater project their consciousness onto the action taking place on the screen. They feel fear when some actor is being threatened and running for their lives, even the heartbeats of the physical body may race. They may become sexual aroused at some sex sceen etc. But when the lights go on they again remember they were only observers to the whole show and and not in personally involved. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY WAS NO ONE WATCHING THE MOVIE!!! It only means that while watching the movie they became forgetfull of their true identities. In this way all the varieties of bodies that we dreamed we incarnated in since time immemoral were just illusions, different parts in the same cosmic play. But just because the play is unreal is imaginary that there is no one doing the imagining. This idea is like some Buddhist book that is popular now,The Book With No Author, or something like that. Yet there is someone who signed the book and collects royalty checks on the sales. Redsoxs there is no YOU who can do anything for all that is taking place is being done by the One. Then why in the hell are you talking to Redsoxs if you say he doesn't exist?? LOL! Furthermore who are you that is talking since according to you you don't exist either? The best bargain anyone can make with such no-self ideas is to go to a cave and just sit silently there until the body dies. Don't even bother with water and food. Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srimanta Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Those who knows me I am here. Those who don't know me, I am nowhere Prabhupada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Sometimes we wake up and can't remember our dreams. But sometimes we retain glimpses of them. Sometimes we even try to go back to sleep quickly because the dream was so pleasant. It is again as with everything around us, always shouting the Truth could we hear, reminding us about the elephant who rolls in the dust after taking its bath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Yes we try to go back to sleep to chase our current dreams. We will ourselves into our next birth and Krsna fulfills our desires. We hear famous phrases designed to motivate us into continuing this madness , "The American Dream", "Dare to Dream", "I have a Dream Today...". Once in awhile the self realized lucid dreamer enters our group dream and trys to wake us up FROM INSIDE OUR OWN DREAMS. Few recognize him, fewer still take his message to heart, yet all are benefited by his presence. All glories to the awakened servant and friend of Sri Krsna!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 So to encourage a child is unintelligent? If all are born as babes would it not be of purpose to know and share? So to share with thoughtful wisdom must entangle the sky and the earth as each share with each other, giving the water of life, the dutiful cycle. Much wisdom can be found in the rock holding firm as with water; being a solid when required to be firm or liquid to fill the niche and even as vapor bringing the rain for each to continue. : An unintelligent person situated within the body created by his previous fruitive activities thinks, "I am the performer of action." Bewildered by false ego, such a foolish person is therefore bound up by fruitive activities, which are in fact carried out by the modes of nature. yet it is nature we adhere and of knowing we are able to extend among all within nature, so the ego shares selfishness rather then knowledge of complacency. : An enlightened person fixed in detachment engages his body in lying down, sitting, walking, bathing, seeing, touching, smelling, eating, hearing and so on, but is never entangled by such activities. Indeed, remaining as a witness to all bodily functions, he merely engages his bodily senses with their objects and does not become entangled like an unintelligent person. to know enlightenment shares that all is entangled, and even hence we smell the flower, we share of the total entangled forever within this beauty. Neither myself or I can leave least one never existed but combined we become of the other like of he and I forever a part to the total still sharing to be living forever. How do you suckle without guidance at first? Here we entangle to begin nourishment. : Sometimes for no apparent reason one's body is attacked by cruel people or violent animals. At other times and in other places, one will suddenly be offered great respect or worship. One who becomes neither angry when attacked nor satisfied when worshiped is actually intelligent. Perfection can be left of intent when the right is the goal, each is of the same source or how do you decipher either? So shall restraint be of compassion versus the self, then we can define tolerance as the virtue; but still of the same source. : A saintly sage sees with equal vision and therefore is not affected by that which is materially good or bad. Indeed, although he observes others performing good and bad work and speaking properly and improperly, the sage does not praise or criticize anyone. A parent or a saint: who that can harm, never? Can support create foundations or does the monk change without teaching; so do we find these extinct if the trail ends? : For the purpose of maintaining his body, a liberated sage should not act, speak or contemplate in terms of material good or bad. Rather, he should be detached in all material circumstances, and taking pleasure in self-realization, he should wander about engaged in this liberated life-style, appearing like a retarded person to outsiders. define retarded…. Please! Just imagine if an act was never of circumstances to be known; where is the pleasure of the self when the total is entangled? So say you as the time is nearing. You bet I am here and with force the walls will fall. When the promise of Understanding is ready, then our future generations will allow all to be entangled with the same. As the bee needs honey; society becomes One knowing how sweet entanglement is! I am a physics guy and entanglement is when a source is shared among the group causing like understanding. My story is that a promise was made to describe life, empirically, and to show how theology and the sciences are true within. The story is that one which will bring the total of man within the one true understanding. With this trouble may brew but it is our children whom I work so hard for. The arrogant side is to retain that hate for ignorance and selfish pursuits as we as the total are the life to protect. I was born in the West, unbridled and with only one commitment to this existence. Who are we as Kali is past? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avasa Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Theist Take a look and see if you can find anyone or anything when a thought arises, if you are honest with yourself you will see that there is no one , nothing , just a thought arising. All is arising in nothingness, th eimagined person is a total illusion that the nothingness itself holds until it ceases to fool itself. There is thinking but no thinker, that is the fact. Avasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 TheistTake a look and see if you can find anyone or anything when a thought arises, if you are honest with yourself you will see that there is no one , nothing , just a thought arising. All is arising in nothingness, th eimagined person is a total illusion that the nothingness itself holds until it ceases to fool itself. There is thinking but no thinker, that is the fact. Avasa please this is not to interupt your post but in a real sense Avasa, you are right! That 'self' is the fault! Yet, to survive, 'I' remains but to acknowledge the difference is ..... good. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sridas Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 But in your dreams wherever you be Dream a little dream of Me. Is that the Lord in the heart coming through a rock group? I wonder. Maybe that should be Realize a reality of Me (Wake me up) Wake me up inside. (I can't wake up) Wake me up inside. (Save me) Call my name and save me from the dark. (Wake me up) Bid my blood to run. (I can't wake up) Before I come undone. (Save me) Save me from the nothing I've become. Now that I know what I'm without, You can't just leave me. Breathe into me and make me real. Bring me to life. (Evanescence) It may be more beneficial if these singers directed their songs to one that CAN wake 'em up. Then they'd also get some eternal fame like Jayadev Goswami and other transcendental poets whose dreams are visions, and whose songs are sung and relevant for all eternity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avasa Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 What is appearing AS and manifesting THROUGH these forms as actions (of thinking, feeling and physical action) is One Being. In some forms this One has realised its Self and in others it plays the game of hiding itself within concepts that it has about itself and is plays at seeking. ALL is One Being. YOU therefore are this One. BodhiAvasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 What is appearing AS and manifesting THROUGH these forms as actions (of thinking, feeling and physical action) is One Being. In some forms this One has realised its Self and in others it plays the game of hiding itself within concepts that it has about itself and is plays at seeking.ALL is One Being. YOU therefore are this One. BodhiAvasa. No more a part of the One then you to be clear. What may be different is this “I” has committed to learn from all man since being the boy 25 years back. A drive to share the truth without ever conforming to a single sect or science but to just know. An autodidact more skeptical then any but in study a parallel began with the sects of theology; most all are pointing to a single individual who will share the knowledge of understanding. All during my periods of study I never sought to be more than what any other is but I wanted to learn so I could remove the questions I sought and freely give them to my children and to the people who had ever asked the same questions. I wanted to know how life existed in a real scientific method. Not of ‘mud’ or creation but of atoms and energy. Well guess what; the framework is ready! Now the only thing left is to assemble the quorum to allow the people of each corner of the globe to be heard within as it is only by this honor of all did the scope present itself. The works or books thereof will be called “Understanding.” So among friends if there was something you would ask, what would it be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 TheistTake a look and see if you can find anyone or anything when a thought arises, if you are honest with yourself you will see that there is no one , nothing , just a thought arising. All is arising in nothingness, th eimagined person is a total illusion that the nothingness itself holds until it ceases to fool itself. There is thinking but no thinker, that is the fact. Avasa And who are you talking to now Avasa? Is it me perchance. I "should look and see" you say but then you deny there is a looker and a seer. Confused. The nothingness you say is fooling itself. How did nothingness decide to fool itself in the first place since choosing to be fooled is an attribute of a living being while nothingness can have no attributes. More confusion. There is thinking but no thinker. Do you really think that is so? This dime store Buddhism will not help anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 jaḍa-vat http://vedabase.net/sb/11/11/17/en Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishadi Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 TRANSLATION For the purpose of maintaining his body, a liberated sage should not act, speak or contemplate in terms of material good or bad. Rather, he should be detached in all material circumstances, and taking pleasure in self-realization, he should wander about engaged in this liberated life-style, appearing like a retarded person to outsiders. Then to find the water while in the crowd of the thirsty, shall it be known best to choose to be of self pleasure with the benefits without sharing with others? And if one is to lead a child to drink would is be best to suggest mud does not nourish as the clean liquid is better and show how to step into the mud to reach the clean sustenance? To ‘appear’ as retarded is a lie by misleading when contrived with purpose. “it was written this way and I will follow” the thought could be. “this is of truth, I will learn and then share’ one is true and both contradict the argument. I am retarded in the sense, you would never know who I am but by my life-style; to live as a part, entangled and intertwined with existence and to know this is what ‘self realize’ is all about. The sage is able to convey. And even in the closet when I do not drink but of nourishment but when the thirst arises and in the midst of others of needed nourishment then it is important to most definitely share the quenching light on the differences of mud versus clean water. The sage you describe is having the wisdom to reassess without offending; to offer a story in without harming “another.” What is realized of Ganesha’s Devotion and why? To never harm ….! Knowing that the other is of the first as we are and to selfishly harm without truth is … well … to be extinct ….. If anything of damage is attached to the messages herein, then it can be attributed to an either/or. Either, we are of truth and although esoteric or the “I” is being selfish and can only be false. Other then terminology, please show us something of the or? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 I neglected to mention in my first post that by clicking on the verse number you will be taken to an advanced level of commentary on that particular verse. I find these commentaries by Srila Prabhupada's scholarly and advanced devotees invaluable myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted October 26, 2006 Report Share Posted October 26, 2006 Theist, I don't get the advanced commerntary on my screen, just more Audarya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sridas Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Hey Theist are you privvy to something we're not? Maybe it just means the purports are are in our own backyard. Or just in extending it to others, hence more audarya. The riddle deepens..... are we going in circles? now we have to get the purport ourselves. Hellllpp!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Theist, I don't get the advanced commerntary on my screen, just more Audarya. Yeah me too. The link is not working for some reason. When you put your curser on the verse it blues up like a link. Used to be and should still be the verse in sanskrit transliterations translation and purport would come up just as it does at the site, accessable from the link in my signature. Curiousier and curiouser. Hmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 Ok the link to www.vedabase.com still works and once there the link to the verse plus purports still work. Let's try it again. Here is a test. SB 11.11.1: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava, due to the influence of the material modes of nature, which are under My control, the living entity is sometimes designated as conditioned and sometimes as liberated. In fact, however, the soul is never really bound up or liberated, and since I am the supreme Lord of māyā, which is the cause of the modes of nature, I also am never to be considered liberated or in bondage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 That works. Why not the first post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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