jijaji

MC.. It's not brain science dude...Like I said(why beat a dead horse) some people just don't get it. Premananda... sorry dude I have to run....hope all is well

Sevaka We are all individuals....thank GOD! MC.. sorry dude...sahajiya thread not bein started by this guy..(why beat a dead horse?) But be my guest..your idea anyway! Your the one getting into it with Premananda saying Radharamana was sahajiya and all! You start saying these things and then admit you know very little about the subject and then try to get me to start a thread on the subject. Is this how you get your entertainment? ------------------ PEACE NOW [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 06-08-2001).]

We are all individuals....thank GOD! ------------------ PEACE NOW

MC.... Me thinks you lack knowledge what a sahajiya truly is. [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 06-08-2001).]

Bhaktivinode himself went to various Gaudiya Vaishnavas before taking his diksha and was at last graced by the vision of Sri Chaitanya in dream directing him to take diksha from Bipin Behari Gosvami of Nityananda/Jahnavi parivar. So if someone of the caliber of Sri Bhaktivinode needed to approach various vaishnavas before deciding whom he should take diksha from, WHY, (pray tell?) is Premanandas confusion about his spiritual life used as a means to smear him? jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

I will be headed to Braja in December after Kartika for a month or so... ------------------ PEACE NOW

What me worry.... ------------------ PEACE NOW

I will see you there.Wear a jijaji name tag so I'll know who you are.MC... No name tag, but I wouldn't mind saying hello believe it or not. Jai Radhe, jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

Satya says; "Shvuji is in fact a Christian" Is this true...? ------------------ PEACE NOW

The Date of The Mahabharata War B.S.V. Prasad The seeds of Death and Immortality Both reside in Man; Death arises out of Desire, And Immortality from Truth. - Santi Parva, The Mahabharata The Mahabharata is the largest and greatest epic of mankind at some 100,000 verses. It is in many ways central to India's ethos. As a story, the Mahabharata is basically about empire building; its central event is a war for succession among cousins. Like all great epics, it has a grand scheme, with hundreds of characters, dozens of intertwining stories, and a strong central message of pacifism, moral rectitude, and man's destiny. The historicity of the Mahabharata is unfortunately still questioned on the basis of the lack of archeological and epigraphical evidence, and the supposed unreliability of traditional Indian sources of history. The problem is compounded by some Indian historians who are attempting to push all events in Indian history back by a few millenia. It is further compounded by the avoidable confusion between the dates of the events in the epic and those of the writing of its parts; clearly large portions of the epic have been written much later than the events they describe, and are naturally couched in the language and mores of the time of their writing. There are many compelling reasons to believe that the central event of the epic, the Mahabharata war, actually took place some 5000 years back (in 3138 BC, to be more exact), as the epic itself asserts. Here are my arguments in favour of, if not the traditional date, at least a date earlier than 2000 BC: Balarama's Pilgrimage Balarama, Sri Krishna's older brother, refuses to take part in the Mahabharata war and goes on a pilgrimage to the holy spots on the banks of the Saraswati river. From the graphic descriptions of the holy spots in the epic it can be surmised that the river must have been well and flowing at the time. We now know that the river dried up not later than 1500 BC, and probably as early as 1900 BC7. The Mahabharata Belonged to the Late Vedic Period It should be noted that many of the events described in the epic might not have happened exactly as described, or at the time stated; the epic grew greatly with later additions. The main characters and events, however, clearly belong to the late Vedic period, when suktas were still being added to the undivided Veda. Vasishtha Ganapati Muni, one of the great Vedic scholars of the 20th century, concluded that the story has been much distorted in the epic. Here is a summary of his findings8: The Pandavas and the Kauravas were not really cousins, but belonged to rival clans (this has been conjuctured by many other researchers also; the two rival clans have been generally identified with the Kurus and the Panchalas3). The great grandfather of the Pandavas, Santanu, was the youngest brother of Devapi, a famous early Vedic seer and author of several suktas in the Rg Veda. Sri Krishna's guru Angirasa, his son Kanva and grandson Narada were all authors of Rg Vedic suktas. His another guru Upamanyu and his father Vyaghrapada were also Vedic seers (in fact, The Pandavas belonged to the gotra of Vyaghrapada). Arjuna himself could be the Vedic seer of the same name. Mention of all the main characters, and major episodes in the Mahabharata can be found in the Rg Veda. Names of most characters are different but recognisable. For example, the Pandavas were called Ambarisha, Bhayamana, Rjraswa, Suradhasa and Sahadeva; they have a common wife called "Ghosha"; their mother was called "Vrshni", and father "Switra". The battle between Karna and Rjraswa has been described; it is Sri Krishna (who was called "Souradeva", and drove Rjraswa's chariot) breaks the chariot of Karna and kills him, when Rjraswa is unable to overcome him, and actually tries to runs away from the battlefield! The upshot of this is that the events described in the Mahabharata must be ancient, and belong to the late Vedic period prior to the desiccation of the Saraswati river, around 3000-2000 BC. Internal Astronomical Evidence This topic is so extensive that it actually requires its own page! There exists a great deal of internal astronomical evidence in all the chapters of the Mahabharata using which the dates of all major events (such as the birth dates of the Pandavas and Sri Krishna, the date of performance of the Rajasuya by Yudhishthira, dates of the exile of the Pandavas, date of Sri Krishna's embassy, dates of various events in the war, as well as the date of Sri Krishna's passing) can be established4,5,6. The authors I have quoted here, as well as many others supporting the traditional date, have shown that the dates are consistently and unambiguously stated in the epic, and can not be easily dismissed as interpolations. For example, the war started exactly one week after the failure of Sri Krishna's embassy, on a new moon when three tithis, Trayodasi, Chaturdasi and Amavasya occurred on the same day; an extraordinary event whose date can be established accurately. In addition, there was a conjunction of seven planets in Vrschika (Capricorn), and Saturn and Jupiter had been in retrogression in the neighbourhood of star Visakha for nearly a year. Given such detail, and the corroboration with the dates of other events in the war, it is difficult to doubt the traditional date of the war. However, I feel that the dates of some of the earlier events could be incorrect. For example, based on the given birth dates, all the protagonists would be very old at the time of the war; Yudhishthira would be 91, Bhima and Duryodhana 90, and Arjuna and Sri Krishna 89 years old; other warriors, such as Bhishma and Drona, would be even older! Sri Aurobindo's Thesis The central part of the epic, the Jaya, has generally been accepted as its oldest part, much older than the other parts. Sri Aurobindo3 remarked on the grace, austerity and grandeur of its language, pointing to an extraordinary author, and a considerably earlier date of composition than the rest of the epic. It was perhaps composed within a century of the war by Krishnadwaipayana Vyasa, who is traditionally credited with not only authoring the epic, but also with the compilation of the original Purana, and the Vedas. The war was an extraordinary event that captured popular imagination; in India such events have always led to the creation of elegiac poems that were preserved by bardic tradition. The Jaya might have been preserved by bardic tradition for several generations before being written down (the famous sloka in which Vyasa says he remembered 8800 verses (of the Jaya), his son Suka another 8800 and Sanjaya, a similar number, may be a pointer to this). Much of the remaining epic, including the Bhadavad Gita, clearly dates to the late BC and early AD centuries. Attestation of Magasthenes Magasthenes, the Greek ambassador in Chandragupta Maurya's court, heard from Indians that 138 generations of kings had passed between Sri Krishna and Chandragupta1. I see no reason to disbelieve the statement or the number. The Puranas give a similar number of generations, but have been disbelieved by historians because they assign reigns of 60 or more years to some kings; this could be because of gaps in their lists of dynastic succession. Allowing on average 20 years for each generation, we get a date not far from the traditional date for the war. Among modern researchers, the latest date for the war of 950 BC is given by F.E. Pargiter2 and some others. Pargiter arrived at this date from the Puranic dynastic lists, by allowing rather short individual reigns, and making no allowance to kings missing from the lists. On the other hand, some Indian authors have tried to push the Mahabharata war beyond 4000 BC by allowing reigns of 40 years or more for each king in the Puranic lists. The figure of 40 years is arrived at by averaging the reigns of some kings of the early period such as Mahapadma, Bindusara, Asoka etc who all reigned long; I feel that such early dates are equally untenable. Traditions of the Kali Era The tradition that the Kali era started after the passing of Sri Krishna in 3101 BC has been very strong all across India for at least two millenia. Well known astronomers such as Aryabhatta have used this date in their books. The famous Aihole inscription of the western Chalukya king Pulakesin II and numerous other early inscriptions attest to this date. The Yudhishthira era, which starts with the coronation of Yudhishthira in 3138 BC, is still followed in some parts of India. Age of Empire Building The Mahabharata war led to the consolidation of a strong empire; the first such in India. The period of the war is consistent with consolidation of empires elsewhere in the world. In Egypt the Lower and Upper kingdoms were united by the First Dynasty around this time. Similar events have occurred in China and the Middle East. Conclusion I find it unbelievable that while other comparable civilisations have history dating back to 3000 BC and earlier, the Indian civilisation should have only a civilisation and no notable events beyond 1500 BC or so. There do not seem to be any compelling reasons to disbelieve the greatest epic of mankind on dates and events it takes great care to put down in detail. I wish to conclude this page by mentioning the rather curious discovery, during the earlier part of this century, of several copper plates in Karnataka, purporting to be dana sasanas (endowment edicts) of Janamejaya, great grandson of Yudhishthira, recording gifts of land. The dates given in these sasanas jell very well with the date of Janamejaya's reign as calculated from the traditional date of the war; other incidental details (such as the gotra of Janamejaya) also match. The sasanas are probably clever medieval forgeries, but their existence proves the strength of the tradition, and shows that the chronology of Mahabharata was very well known to people in the medieval period and earlier. Bibliography 1. Plutarch, Life of Alexander the Great in "Lives", and other ancient Western sources. All sources depend heavily on Magasthenes' "Indica", which is no longer available now. 2. F.E. Pargiter, "Ancient Indian Historical Tradition", Motilal Banarsidass, New Delhi, 1997. 3. Sri Aurobindo, "On the Mahabharata", Aurobindo Ashram, Pondicherry, 1996. Sri Aurobindo was a great scholar of Sanskrit and of the Indian tradition, but apparently hadn't written down much of his research in these fields. Sri Aurobindo gives the date of 1190 BC for the Mahabharata war in the book, but one must appreciate that this was probably the earliest date he could have advocated at the time, nearly a century ago. 4. Satya Prakash Sarasvat, "Mahabharat: An Astronomical Proof from the Bhagavat Puraan", and also several links therefrom. 5. Kota Venkatachalam's book on the date of the Mahabharata war. This is a well-known, authoritative and excellently researched book supporting the traditional date. I read it several years back and made notes, but unfortunately I have a neither copy now, nor can I recall its title. 6. Veda Vyasa, "Mahabharata Kala Nirnayam (Date of the Mahabharata)" in Telugu, University of Vedic Sciences, Hyderabad, 1998. This is a fairly well researched book, as far as the date of the Mahabharata itself is concerned, but the presentation is poor. There are many repetitions, and some conclusions (not connected with dates) are insufficiently or improperly supported. 7. See the Saraswati Sindhu site for a great deal of material on the Saraswati river, maps, photographs, as well as further links. However be forewarned that the site is extensive and somewhat confusing. 8. Guntur Lakshmikantam, "Nayana", A biography of Vasishtha Ganapati Muni in Telugu, 1998 edition. The material cited here appears as an appendix. ------------------ PEACE NOW

Dharma, Cool article..! jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

shvu.. I am sorry to say , but I have noticed somewhat of a double standard here. You are constantly BLASTING Gaudiya Vaishnavism as you consider it to be unauthentic and without foundation. Rather your postings generally support advaita..no problem to me. But you seem to be upset with those of us who have serious issues of Siddhanta with Gaudiya Math and it's branches. It does not suprise me in the least that other schools of Vedanta disagree with each other. It does not bother me that Tattvavadis are not acceptant of Sri Chaitanyas divinity. It does not bother me that followers of Goraknath do not accept Sri Chaitanyas divinity. But keep in mind that certainly Ramakrisha did.....as did many many others! So you can argue until the cows come home...and call of us names who disagree with the Siddhanta being presented by these missionaries. BUT....you are doing the very same thing, walking around on the forums like YOU RULE..give me a break. IS YOUR WORD FINAL HERE OR SOMETHING? EXCUSE ME DUDE! GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE! ------------------ PEACE NOW [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-19-2001).]

------------------ PEACE NOW

sorry darwin does not know advaita like shvu (not even close) and neither do I.... ------------------ PEACE NOW

MC says; ".I believe Haridas Thakur was Christ.Just look at the parralels in their lives.Beaten in the market place.Freely gave up their lives.Came back from samadhi in the same form.And more.Some see him also as Prahlada.Interesting topic." Thinking that a great devotee of Mahaprabhu like Haridas Thakur is Jesus is based on nothing but your own religious sentiment and speculation. ------------------ PEACE NOW

Groovey Baby...! Yeah! Jai Radhe ------------------ PEACE NOW

Objections to conversions An Israeli legislator, Shri Nissim Zvili, had sponsored an anti-proselytising bill. The CNN Networks (March 31, 1998, web posted at 23:23 GMT), reported that the move was dropped when ‘representatives of 50 Christian evangelical groups agreed to make an unprecedented joint statement promising not to carry out missionary activity in Israel.’ In the statement, the Christian groups say they ‘rejoice in the presence of the Jewish people in this country of their ancestors’ and agree to avoid ‘activities which.... alienate them from their tradition and community.’ In Russia, a bill entitled “On Freedom of Conscience and Religious Associations” was passed. It gives official status to only the Russian Orthodox Church, Islam, Judaism and Buddhism, and discriminates against hundreds of other faiths, including Roman Catholicism and Protestant sects. The bill clamps restrictions on many new religious groups, foreign as well as Russian, that came into existence in the mid- 1980s. (The Indian Express, June 26, 1998.) In India, the anger against conversions is felt not only by the Hindutvavadis, but also by the whole Hindu samaj (society). A Christian activist who writes regularly on Christian issues in both communal and secular media, wrote in one of the former as follows: So what is it that makes missionaries different, I wonder. I asked my Hindu husband and other Hindu friends - educated, perceptive adults - and I was shocked at the anger I uncovered. They just don’t see Christians as Indians; they see us as an alien ‘other’, minions of a white, Christian world that is synonymous with spiritual and racial chauvinism. Our cathedrals, our culture, and our worships set us apart. Poland has shown us that the dividing line between spiritual and political control can be very fine. The red flag, however, is conversion. It rakes up old hurts of a colonial religion that not only cut off a people from their rich spiritual heritage and destroyed their cultural roots, but created pseudo-western Indians that looked down on the ‘natives’ and their ‘superstitious’, ‘idol-worshipping’ religion. (Astrid Lobo Gajiwala, “Martyrdom-The call for the new millennium”, The Examiner, July 18, 1998.) The Hindus that the activist talked to would perhaps not like to be identified as supporters of Hindutva. Moreover, as she says, they are “educated, perceptive adults”. In November 1998, in Nashik the political parties of all shades organised a protest march against conversion. The Christian converts in the tribal areas refused to partake in festivities which have been the tradition of the area. This refusal is part of the programme to wean themselves from the rest of the society. It is time that Christians and their apologists give serious thought to the reaction of the Hindu samaj to conversions. Members of all religions take a serious view of conversions. In response to the activities of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), there has been an aggressive reaction from the Christians all over the world. In many ways, the methods followed by ISKCON mimicked the way the missionaries operated. At the same time, it has to be noted that the movement flourished without any state patronage, even from the country of the birth of its founder, Swami Prabhupada. He took his message to the people in the West, and he was accepted for spiritual reasons. It was the American converts who set up the organisation of ISKCON, and they provided the funding. The aggressive nature of the Christian reaction to ISKCON can be gauged by the following advice that was rendered to the parents of children who became attracted to the movement: Parents wishing to extricate their adult offspring from the anti-Christian context’ of an organization like ISKCON can - if they’ve first exhausted all legal options, considered the risks and consulted with their pastor - perform Christian ‘civil disobedience’: disregard whatever laws (for example, kidnapping, false imprisonment, assault and battery) stand in the way, and rescue their son or daughter from the clutches of such a false, non-scriptural religion. (The Commission on Organizations: The ‘New Religions’, Brainwashing and Deprogramming, St. Louis: The Commission on Organizations, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, n.d., pp 4-5.) The Christian churches in India have threatened violence against the programme of reconversions launched by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP). Rev V K Nuh, secretary of the Nagaland Baptist convention, said, “If someone tries to impose their faith, Christians in this region will not surrender. There will be a battle and we shall have no option. There will be a physical and religious war if attempts are made to propagate Hinduism by forceful means in the Northeast.” Rev M D Oaugma, head of the Garo Baptist Convention of Meghalaya said, “It could be a threat to Christianity if we remain silent to the VHP’s game plan of mass conversion. We shall have to fight, we shall have to resist.” (Maharashtra Herald, July 11, 1998.) Some of the aggressive Protestant sects are targeting not only non-Christians but also other Christian sects. During his visit to the Dominican Republic in South America in October 1992, Pope John Paul II said that he must protect his flock from the ‘wolves’ of evangelical Protestantism wooing Latin Americans away from the Roman Catholic Church. As shepherd to Latin America’s 395 million Roman Catholics, the Pope said he must “take care of the sheep who have been put in my care and protect them from rapacious wolves.” (Houston Chronicle, October 13, 1992.) The question to be asked of the Pope is if the Protestant missionaries are wolves in South America, do they not belong to the same category in India? Actually, there is an irony here. The Pope is unhappy not because the Roman Catholics have stopped believing in Christ, but that they are doing it in another church as Protestants and under another set of priests. If the Pope can be unhappy of such a state of affairs, surely the non-Christians have a greater right to be unhappy when their members embrace Christianity. This unhappiness of the Roman Catholics against the activities of the Protestants exists in India as well. Shri John Stackhouse reported as follows: In the tribal belt, many Protestant churches use mass rallies and faith healing to draw potential converts. And there often are promises of education and jobs. “Those Protestants - Methodists, Pentecostals - have been baptising left, right and centre,” said Bishop de Rosario (of Vadodara), who has lost many Roman Catholic villages to the new evangelical missions, which are the fastest-growing denomination in the adivasi region. “This has created some of the problem.” (Jesus Christ: Persona Non-Grata in India?, Globe and Mail (USA), Nov 5, 1998) There is a clear admission by the Roman Catholics in India that the Protestants, at least, are undertaking conversions by inducements, which has no spiritual merit. These inducements are given in South America, and on a visit to Brazil the Pope expressed his unhappiness. (Pope John Paul II) exhorted his followers to crusade against fundamentalist religious sects that offer what (he) called ‘false mirages’ to growing numbers of Brazilians ‘hungry for bread and justice’...... Brazil’s bishops have reportedly concluded that as many as 600,000 Brazilians leave the Roman Catholic Church each year to join fundamentalist and evangelical Protestant sects, some of which offer mass healing and fund-raising sessions that anger Roman Catholic and Protestant fundamentalists alike. (Alan Cowell, Pope urges Brazilians to resist mirages of evangelists, New York Times, Oct 14, year not known.) Conversions by fraud and inducements are the standard practice all over the world. In Mongolia, Shri Alexander Berzin, a research fellow at Columbia University, New York, said in an interview, The missionaries come in guise of English teachers. They give money, computers to universities, scholarships to children of influential officials. They buy their way in. (Disrupting the faith?, Newsweek, Jan 13, 1997.) Apart from being concerned about Roman Catholics leaving to join the Protestant sects, the present pope, John Paul II, is most unhappy when Christians adopting another religion. In the case of Hinduism and Buddhism, he has written in his book as follows: “(I)t is not inappropriate to caution those Christians who enthusiastically welcome certain ideas originating in the religions of the Far East - for example, techniques and methods of meditation and ascetical practice. In some quarters these have become fashionable, and are accepted rather uncritically. First one should know one’s own spiritual heritage well and consider whether it is right to set it aside lightly.” (Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Random House, 1994, pp 89-90.) It would be appropriate to ask the Pope what moral right does he have to ask Hindus and Buddhists to set aside their own even longer spiritual heritage aside lightly and adopt Christianity. Moreover, given the fact that Christians in Christian countries are leaving the religion, it would also be appropriate to ask the Pope to explain to the others the spiritual merit of the system he is advocating. It would also be appropriate to ask the Christians why do they not concentrate on ensuring that their own flock does not desert them instead of trying to entice non-Christians. In the West there is a great deal of disenchantment with Christianity as a spiritual guide. As per a report in a Roman Catholic weekly in India (The Examiner, July 18, 1998), out of the six million Roman Catholics in Austria, only 20% attend church regularly, and 40,000 are leaving the church every year. At this rate, by the year 2030, there will not be any Roman Catholics left in Austria. Another Christian weekly in India (India Currents, June 5-11, 1998) Rev Valson Thampu said that only 7% of the population in the United Kingdom are practising Christians. The Sunday Times, (London, May 11, 1997) carries a report which says that by the year 2002, the number of Christians attending the Church of England services will be less than the Muslims going to mosques. Presently, only 850,000 Anglicans go to church. Out of a population of more than 50 million this is indeed a low figure. The Times of India (July 27, 1998) carried an item with the heading “Sunday shopping hits Church visits in Europe”. One wonders if the people went to churches only because they had nothing better to do, and not because they received any spiritual sustenance by their act. The report says, “For many Poles, going to the hyper-market or shopping mall is an entertaining way to spend time with the family.” ------------------ PEACE NOW

MC says.. I would love to see at least one large and celbrated temple where Christ, Mary and Visnu/Krishna were worshiped side by side.This would show that to accept Christ one needn't reject Bhagavad-gita and Srimad Bhagavatam.Srila Prabhupada was fine with it here and I believe it to be in the spirit of Bhaktivinode Thakur. >I do not believe that would be in the spirit of Bhaktivinode at all. Gaura-Gadadhar yes but Mary on a Gaudiya Vaishnava altar at least is total Rasa Bhasa, of course he was respectful and acknowledged various religions, but his intention was not to mix them together. If you want mixed religion go to Ramakrishna Math or Yoganandas Group ..they are already doin it! ------------------ PEACE NOW

The Rape of India -- The rape of India is done in a model similar to a military model used to invade, occupy, control, or subjugate a population of a given country. Intelligence is considered essential to invading a country; language, religion, culture, etc. are some of the variables considered. Division among the given population is considered essential to gain political control once inside the country. Religion can be the key variable to accomplish this. Division of wealth, social status, ethnic diversity, etc. are also variables that influence division of the population of a given country. At the present time North India is considered the core target of evangelists in their effort of world evangelism. They justify this to Christians by using derogatory remarks like " 900 million Hindus are spiritual bondage" (Baptist Press 10/99) or "900 million people lost in the hopeless darkness of Hinduism" (Baptist Press 11/99) North India is a major population and political center. It is also considered the religious hub of India, the most socially deprived, has the lowest literacy rate, having the smallest percentage of Christians in its population as well as having immense research done on the population. The evangelists consider Hindus in North India as being the most accessible target in their plan for world wide evangelism. In addition there is the added incentive of having a Muslim population of 140 million. The AD2000 movement uses terms such as "spy out the land and its inhabitants" to get an accurate complete picture of opportunities and challenges of India. They have coined the terms PLUG, PREM and NICE to describe their goals and methodology. PLUG refers to the target group. People in every language, urban center and geographic division. PREM refers to the techniques to use. Offering prayer, research must be done and utilized effectively on the target group, an evangelist must be the catalyst to provoke change and action and to encourage ministries and their efforts to convert non Christians. NICE refers to how the work is to be done. Networking, taking initiative when the movement is slowing down, using an evangelist to speed action in evangelizing and to encourage existing groups and cohorts in their efforts to convert people to Christianity. ( www.ad2000.org/uters3.htm) The Gospel For Christ and The Indian Missionary Association have put together books to help evangelists evangelize India. The evangelists are also using information from The Anthropological Society of India's work on ethno-graphic studies which has been considered essential in facilitating the evangelism efforts. This has been used to such a degree that the diverse language groups of India have been divided into PIN codes. ( These are similar to ZIP codes in the USA that divide the country into mailing districts.) The ability to send evangelists that are familiar to language, culture, etc. greatly facilitates the speed at which evangelism is able to develop and is cost effective since tactics can be formed at the home base which saves costly mistakes in the field. ad2000 ( www.ad2000.org/uters2.htm ) The Christian Broadcasting Network has a splinter group that is called The Joshua Project. Their target is 2.2 billion people in 1685 groups that are divided into Affinity Blocks and Gateway Clusters. Affinity groups are groups of people who have bonding of language, religion, politics and culture. Usually there is one culture that is dominate in the block. People clusters are people that are closely related in name or culture so they are clustered together. These groups usually consist of populations of over one million. There goal is to have at least one hundred Christians or more in every group of over 10,000 people. Joshua Project ( www.ad2000.org/ ) There are too many evangelist groups in India to cover in this article however; I will discuss a few of them to give a picture of how they proliferate. The Indian Prayer + Fellowship Association has a goal to reach all non Christians to start cell groups. They have contacted over 16,000 houses, made almost 900 home contacts and over 1700 personal contacts. Their goal is to start cell groups than attach a full gospel group or plant a church if needed. They also supply tracts, literature etc. Indian Prayer And Fellowship Association ( w.geocities.com/athens/troy ) Partners International has the goal of training indigenous people to evangelize others. They are training a Christian who has converted to Christianity every 13 minutes. They claim planting a church every ten hours in Asia and Africa. ( www.partnersintl.org/abou...come.html ) The southern Baptists plan to have 4,700 southern Baptists working with millions of international partners. Their goal is to have 15,000 career missionaries, 50,000 volunteers, and 1,000 southern Baptist college grads every year. The length of service for the college grads is to be two years. ( Baptist Press 11/22/99) The evangelists strategy for North India includes treating Indian missions and Indian evangelists as equal considering that India has a strong GNP and a growing middle class. Due to the large population base the evangelists strategy includes dividing up the population base into smaller target groups such as women estimated to number 487 million or girls under 15 which is estimated to number 158 million. They plan to use literacy programs o target the illiterate which is estimated to be 48% of the population. They also plan to supply the Indian church with tools such as translators, humanitarian relief, etc. so the churches can become self sustaining and would not need outside assistance. ( www.gem-werc.org/mmrc9812.htm) The evangelists India outreach teams -hbi ministries international India provide schools, orphanages, medical centers etc. In a six week period outreach teams ministered to 19,000 children and taught Hindu and Muslim students in Christian schools. ( www.gospel.net/hbi/iot/ ) Dr. Houtsma of World Outreach Ministries stated that he has helped train 160,000 national ministers to continue his work when he leaves. He is targeting Jammu, Vyara, Ludhiana, etc. ( www.wo.org/ ) One of the variables in training indigenous missionaries is the decreased cost to support missionaries. A foreign missionary cost at least $66,000 a year to support. Native missionaries cost approximately $600 a year. This greatly decreases the cost of evangelizing. Christian Aid. ( www.christianaid.org/ ) Native missionaries now do 90% of the work in starting churches. These people are more effective in converting people because They understand the language, customs, culture, etc. In addition recent converts are often more zealous in their efforts to convert people to their way of thinking. Hundreds of thousands of zealous converts can also have a sever profound influences on the political system that is in effect. The reader of this article should be aware of the fact that these students could be influenced toward Christianity by their teachers. In addition orphanages can be the breeding ground for future evangelists. In an orphanage children could be brainwashed and conditioned during school and after school. The children in an orphanage can have their social life controlled after school so they only socialize with evangelists. These children have no family or other people outside of the evangelists to look after their welfare so they can easily be programmed. It is interesting though sad to see the results that might occur as the evangelists enter their last stage of evangelism in India. You can see considerable backlash against evangelism as stated in the newspapers. Evangelists cry to the politicians, civil right groups and newspapers in the West. Some questions must be asked though. Do evangelists have the right to disrupt society, culture, religion, and the family of people in other countries? Do people have the right to combat the attack on the culture, etc. of their country? I would welcome any comments or feedback on this article. David Kostinchuk VISIT MY WEBSITE: PEOPLE UNITED FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM www3.mb.sympatico.ca/~dkost/index.htm If you enjoyed this article , please visit: http://www.hinduunity.org ------------------ PEACE NOW

as you can see anangaji he has gotten worse..damm sweetrice! jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

Who's Really Angry? ------------------ PEACE NOW

No Kidding..who's really angry here?

Some people JUST don't get it! OI GAVALD...! ------------------ PEACE NOW

MC... Please see this wonderful article by my dear friend Premananda das on Ekadasa Bhava. Jai Krishna Dasa Babaji © 1998 VNN EDITORIAL 10/14/1998 - 2357 Ekadasa-bhava and Raganuga Sadhana Bhakti -- Editorial (VNN) - by Premananda Das Sri Sri Guru-Gaurangau jayatah! In the practice of Raganuga-Sadhana bhakti, the Ekadasa-bhava, or the eleven elements of the sadhaka´s siddha-deha, are essential. Ekadasa-bhava means Gopi-bhava, the mood of the Gopis of Vraja. Sri Caitanya-caritamrita teaches us about Gopi-bhava as follows: ataeva gopibhava kari angikara ratri-dine cinte Radha-Krishnera vihara siddha-deha cinti kare tahai sevana sakhi-bhave paya Radha-Krishnera carana "Therefore accept Gopi-bhava to contemplate Radha-Krishna´s pastimes throughout the day and night. By performing manasi-seva within your internally conceived siddha-deha you will attain Radha-Krishna´s feet." The sadhaka who has intense lobha for attaining the service of Srimati Radhika and Sri Krishna in Vraja, will receive Ekadasa-bhava from the Diksha-Guru, who comes in a Siddha-Guru-parampara descending directly from one of the nitya-siddha associates of Sriman Mahaprabhu, Srila Nityananda Prabhu or Srila Advaita Acarya Prabhu. Sri Srimad Bhaktivinod Thakur has written about how Ekadasa-bhava is received from Srila Gurudeva. The Thakur himself received it from his eternal Gurudeva Srila Vipina-vihari Gosvami Prabhupada. Sadhakera yakhan raganuga-marga lobha haya takhan sadgurur nikata pararthana karile tini sadhakera ruci pariksa kariya tahar bhajana nirnoyer sange sange siddha-dehera paricaya kariya diben. "When the sadhaka´s lobha is awakened for Raganuga-bhakti he will approach his Gurudeva with great humility. After testing the disciple´s sincerity, the bona fide Guru will instruct the disciple and adjust his bhajana according to the identity of his siddha-svarupa." (Sri Caitanya-siksamrtam, part 6, chapter 5.) "What rasa is suited to which jiva is determined by his inner relish. When he gets regard for particular form of bhajana, from that bhajana his ruci can be understood. Deciding that ruci, his spiritual master will initiate him accordingly. (…) "If anybody possesses greed for the path of Raganuga-sadhana, he will pray to his Guru, who after examining his ruci will determine the type of bhajana suited to him and give him acquaintance of his siddha-deha. (…) "The significance of this type of sadhana is to enter the transcendental Lila of Sri Radha-Krishna and remembering Their eternal Names, Form and Beauty, and Qualities by application of the sadhaka´s relationship with Them, in consonance with his own name and form etc., bestowed by the Guru." In the book Sri Harinama-cintamani the Thakur explains the method of Raganuga-sadhana. It is important to know the authorized method to attain the supreme goal, if one is to make any progress in one´s sadhana-bhajana. Therefore Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur has mercifully explained it, through his parampara teachings, and in his books. Let´s see how Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur describes the method of Raganuga-sadhana and how it relates to the sadhaka´s Ekadasa-bhava. ei ekadasa-bhava sampura sadhane panca dasa laksya haya sadhakajivane sravana, varana ara smarana, apana sampatti ei panca vidha dasaya ganana "The sadhana relating to the eleven items of ekadasa-bhava is executed in five progressive stages: 1.. Sravana-dasa - the stage of hearing about Radha-Krishna-lila. 2.. Varana-dasa - the stage of accepting. 3.. Smarana-dasa - the stage of remembering. 4.. Apana-dasa - the mature stage 5.. Sampatti-dasa - the attainment of the goal." Next, the Thakur will explain in detail about these five progressive stages. Sravana-dasa - the stage of hearing nijapeksa srestha suddha bhavuka ye jana bhava-marge Gurudeva sei Mahajana tahara srimukhe bhava tattvera sravana haile sravana dasa haya prakatana bhava-tattva dviprakara karaha vicara nija ekadasa-bhava Krishna-lila ara "The Ekadasa-bhava-tattva and Krishna´s astakala-lilas should be heard from a suddha-bhakta more advanced than oneself. This means one´s own Gurudeva, and preferably if he is a bhavuka." He continues: "That great personality who has no selfish interest, who is absorbed in the experience of pure and exalted sentiments, is the Gurudeva on the path of divine emotion. One should hear the details of divine emotions from his holy lips and this is referred to as Sravana-dasa. The principle of divine sentiments is to be considered from two angles: 1. one´s own eleven aspects of spiritual identity and 2. the Divine Lilas of Krishna." Varana-dasa - the stage of acceptance Radha-Krishna astakala yei lila kare tahara sravane lobha haya antahpure lobha haile Gurupade jijnasa udaya kemane paibo lila kaha mahasaya Gurudeva kripa kari karibe varnana lila-tattva ekadasa-bhava sangatana prasanna haiya prabhu karibe adesa ei bhave lila madhye karaha pravesa Gururupe siddha-bhava kariya sravana sei bhava sviya citte karite varana "When lobha arises upon hearing Radha-Krishna´s astakala-lilas, the disciple may ask:' Oh Gurudeva, how is it possible to attain such lilas?' If pleased with the disciple, the Guru will relate the lila-tattva in context with the sadhaka´s Ekadasa-bhava saying: 'You may enter the lila in this way.' This stage of acceptance is called Varana-dasa." Let us now take a look at what Ekadasa-bhava is, since it is given by the Guru at this stage of acceptance. (This process of giving Ekadasa-bhava is popularly called Siddha-pranali.) To obtain authorized knowledge about this subject one has to consult with Sastra, Guru and Sadhu. According to the Thakur in Jaiva-dharma, Srila Gopala-Guru Gosvami, the eternal associate of Sriman Mahaprabhu and Sri Radha-Krishna was given the task of writing about the method of Raganuga-sadhana, by Sri Gauranga and His associates. The Sri Gaura-Govinda-arcana-smarana-paddhati, by Srila Gopala-Guru´s disciple Srila Dhyanacandra Gosvami, a book which is a copy of the original paddhati with some additional verses, has the following to say about Ekadasa-bhava: a.. Nama (name) SriRupamanjarityadi namakhyan anurupatah cintaniyam yatayogyam svanama vrajasubhruvam "As Sri Rupa Manjari and the other Vraja-devis have individual names, the sadhaka also has a manjari name which is to be meditated upon." Srila Bhaktivinod explains further: Sri Gurudeva ye manjari-nama diben, sei nami sadhakera nityanama baliya janibe. vrajalalanadikera madhye nama dvara manorama haibe. "The manjari name that the Guru selects is the sadhaka´s eternal name which renders the sadhaka-manjari 'manorama' among the Vraja-sundaris." b.. Rupa (form) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: rupam yuthesvari rupam bhavaniyam prayatnatah trailokyamohanam kamoddipanam gopikapateh "As the Yuthesvari, groupleader (Srimati Radhika), is captivating throughout the three worlds and able to invoke Krishna´s kama, so are Her maidservants. With care and attention one should fix the mind on one´s own form as such." Jaiva-dharma: sadhakera ruci anusare Sri Gurudeva rupayauvana sampanna ekti kisori siddha-rupa nirnaya kariben. Acintya cinmaya rupa visistha na haile Sri Radhikara paricarika ke haite pare? "According to the sadhaka´s ruci, taste, the Guru will prescribe a lovely kisori siddha-svarupa (a manjari-svarupa). Without having an inconceivably beautiful form, could anyone possibly become Radha´s dasi?" c.. Vayasa (age) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: vayo nanavidham tatra yatu tridasavatsaram madhuryadbhutakaisoram vikyatam vrajasubhruvam "The ages of the Vraja-sundaris are all different; the sadhaka-manjari will meditate upon herself as a kisori near about thirteen, the age whereupon youth blossoms." Jaiva-dharma: Kaisora vayasa vayasa - dasa vatsara haite solo vatsara paryanta kaisora. Ihakei vayasa-sandhi bale. Manjaridera vayasa dasa haite sevanotikrame caudda vatsra paryanta vridhi paibe. Balya, pauganda o vridha vayasa vrajalalanadikera hay na. Sadhaka nijeke kisori baliya abhiman karibe. "The kisori age is from ten years up to sixteen and is also referred to as 'vayasa-sandhi' ( the time when a woman´s form develops). The manjaris´ ages start from ten and extend up to fourteen. Radha´s sakhis and manjaris are all kisori. Thus the sadhaka shall conceive of his eternal svarupa as a kisori." d.. Vesha (dress) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: vesonilpatadyaisca vicitralankritaistatha svadya dehanurupena svabhava rasa sundarah "One´s manjari-svarupa is meditated upon as dressed in blue silken garments with gold and jewelled ornaments which are gorgeous to behold." Jaiva-dharma: sevara upayogi nana vidha silpa kalaya sakala manjargana abhighya tad anurupa guna o vesa sri gurudeva sadhakake nirdistha kariben. "The manjaris are well qualified in all arts of seva. According to the sadhaka´s particular ruci, however, the Guru will select in which qualities and in which dress the sadhaka-manjari shall be adorned." e.. Sambandha (relationship) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: sevya sevaka sambandhah svamanovrtti bhedatah pranatyaghapi sambandham na kada parivarttayet "Due to the particular desire of the sadhaka the relationship between the worshipper and the worshippable is adjusted. In life or death this sambandha can never be broken. Jaiva-dharma: sadhaka sambandha visaya niye eirupa bhavibena ami sri radhikara paricarikar paricarika, sri radha amar jivitesvari, krishna tahar jivitesvara; sutarang radhavallabhi amar pranesvara. "The sadhaka´s sambandha with Radha-Krishna is to be meditated upon as follows: Sri Radhika-devi is my Pranesvari; I am the maidservant of Her maidservants. Because Krishna is Radhika´s Pranesvara - Radha-Vallabha (Radha-Krishna) are my worshippable object." f.. Yutha (group) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: yathayuthesvariyutha sada tisthiti tadvesa tathaiva sarvatha tisthed bhutva tad vasavarttini "The sadhaka-manjari belongs to Sri Radhika´s yutha, group; thus Radha is the yuthesvari, group leader. One should thus meditate: I follow the requests of Radha and remain by Her side subjugated by Her numerous qualities." Jaiva-dharma: Srimati radhikai yuthesvari. Radhikara astasakhir madhye kaharo gane takite haibe sadhaker rucikrame sri gurudeva astasakhider ekti ganer ganer madhye avastan nirdesa kariben. Sei sakhira ajnakrame sri yuthesvari sahita lilamaya srikrishnake sadhaka-manjari seva kariben. "In Radharani´s yutha each of the eight chief sakhis form subgroups called 'gana'. After testing the sadhaka´s ruci, the Gurudeva will select in which gana the sadhaka-manjari will serve." 7) Ajna (order) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: yuthesvarya sivasyajnamadaya hariradhayo yathocitanca susrasam kuryadananda samyuta "The sadha-manjari honours the yuthesvari´s order as her life and soul. Thus all types of appropriate seva are performed to increase the pleasure of Radha-Govinda." Jaiva-dharma: Ajna dui prakara arthat nitya o naimittika. Karunamaya sakhi ye nitya seva sadhaka manjarike ajna kariben taha mirapeksa haiya astakalera madhye yakhana yaha kartavya taha kariben. Abar upastita anya kona seva prayojana mota ajna karile taha naimittika ajna; tahao visesa yatnera sahita palan karite haibe. "Orders are of two types: nitya (regular) and and naimittika (occasional). The daily seva which the merciful Prana-prestha-sakhi imparts is the nitya-ajna. Without consideration the sadhaka-manjari executes them at the prescribed moments during the course of the astakala. On special occasions namittika orders are given. They must also be looked after with due care and attention." a.. Seva (service) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: camara vyajanadinam sarvajna pratipalanam itiseva parijneya yathamati vibhagasah "With expertise the sadhaka-manjari will execute two categories of seva: verbal orders, and relative services, beginning with camara fanning." b.. Parakastha (one´s supreme ambition) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: sri radhakrishnoryad tad rupamanjarikadya prapta nityasakhitanca tatha syamiti bhavayet "I shall become a nitya-sakhi (manjari) and serve Radha and Krishna in the footsteps of Sri Rupa Manjari - this is my parakastha." c.. Palyadasi (the mood of being a fostered maidservant) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: palyadasi sa ca prokta paripalya priyamvada svamanovrtti rupena ya nitya paricarika "By remaining under the care and protection of a senior Vraja-gopi, the sadhaka-manjari is referred to as her palyadasi." d.. Nivasa (kunja of residence) Arcana-smarana-paddhati: nivaso vraja madhye tu radhakrishna sthali mata vamsivatasca sri nandisvarasca apyati kautukah "Within Vraja-mandala at Vamsi-vata, Nandisvara, etc., Radha-Krishna enact their nitya-vihara; those lila-sthalis are the residence for my siddha-deha." Jaiva-dharma: Vraje nityavasi vasa. Vrajera madhye ksana grame sadhaka gopi haiya janama haya, abar gramantare ksana gopera sahita sadhaka-manjari vivaha hay, kintu krishnera murali rabe akristha haiya radhikara anugatya tahara radha-kundastha kunje ekti kutira vasa kariben - ei abhimane siddha vasi sadhaka manjari nivasa. "To eternally reside in Vrindavan is the meaning of nivasa. The sadhaka takes birth as a gopi in a particular village in Vraja. Then, after marriage, she resides in her father-in-law´s house. When the sound of Krishna´s melodious flute enters the ears however, the allurement for Radha´s seva brings the sadhaka-manjari to Radha-kunda. It is here that she has a kunja and kutira for residence." Now, let us return to the description of the five progressive stages of Raganuga-sadhana. Smarana-dasa - the stage of remembrance Harinama-cintamani: nija siddha ekadasa-bhave vrati haye smaribe sudridha citte nija-bhava caye smarane vicara eka ache to sundara apanarera yogyasmrti koto nirantara apanarera ayogya smarana yadi haya bahu yuga sadhileo siddhi kabu naya "One should regularly practice ekadasa-bhava-smarana with special attention on the lilas corresponding to one´s mood. Fortunately, only the lilas in which the sadhaka finds interest need to be contemplated, for otherwise siddhi (perfection) may not take place even after many lifetimes of devotional practice." When the mature sadhaka has become aware of his sthayi-bhava in relation to Radha-Krishna, only sravanam, kirtanam and smaranam in relation to one´s particular mood should be performed. If a devotee´s sthayi-bhava is manjari-bhava, he will attain siddhi through hearing, reciting and remembering Radha-Krishna´s amorous pastimes. The Gosvamis have written many books about these pastimes, such as Govinda-lilamrta and Krishna-bhavanamrita, so that we may know about and obtain the desire to take part in the pastimes of Radha-Krishna. Apana-dasa - the mature stage apana sadhane smrti yabe haoye vrati acire apana-dasa haya suddha ati nija suddha bhavera ye nirantara smrti tahe dura haya sighri yara bandha mati "In the course of time as the sadhaka becomes adept in the art of smarana-sadhana his mind shall become free from material bondage due to its fixation on the goal." smarane ei panca-dasa atikrama karite anipuna lokera pakse bahuyuga yaite pare; nipunabyaktidera pakse alpadine apanadasa upastita haya. "For the unadept, it could take many yugas to progress from Smarana-dasa to Sampatti-dasa. For the expert sadhaka, however, Apana-dasa may awaken in a short time only." Sampatti-dasa - the attainment of siddhi samadhi svarupa smrti ye samaye haya bhavapana dasa asi haibe udaya sei kale nija siddha-deha abhiman parajiya jada-deha habe adhisthan takhana svarupe vraja-vasa ksane ksana bhavapane sva-svarupe here vraja-vana "Through unwavering svarupa-smrti (remembrance of one´s siddha-svarupa) samadhi shall be invoked causing one´s material identity to lose precedence. Then, from moment to moment, darsana of Krishna-lila in one´s siddha-svarupa becomes possible." A jiva who has reached this stage, Svarupa-siddhi, will upon leaving the material body be transferred to a material universe where Radha-Krishna-lila takes place. When Krishna and His associates leave that material universe, the jiva also goes to Goloka Vrindavan, and thus attains the final goal, which is termed Vastu-siddhi. From a fallen servant of the servants of Srila Bhaktivinod Thakura (Srimati Kamala Manjari), Premananda Dasa ------------------ PEACE NOW

I don't feel that sorry for you jndas..you see we have put up with slander and insults after we found out certain truths about Gaudiya Vaishnavism for years and years and years! ;^) ------------------ PEACE NOW