jijaji

so cool......... ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

"One can rightly speak of God only after one has seen Him. He who has seen God knows really and truly that God has form and that He is formless as well. He has many other aspects that cannot be described. "Once some blind men chanced to come near an animal that someone told them was an elephant. They were asked what the elephant was like. The blind men began to feel its body. One of them said the elephant was like a pillar; he had touched only its leg. Another said it was like a winnowing-fan; he had touched only its ear. In this way the others, having touched its tail or belly, gave their different versions of the elephant. Just so, a man who has seen only one aspect of God limits God to that alone. It is his conviction that God cannot be anything else." Sri Ramakrishna ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

nice......... ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

Yes Yes Valayaji, this story has it's climax in Ma Kali standing looking out over the Ganges and the distance lights of Calcutta. What a description ...what a VISION. When I first read this description almost a decade ago I remember I was spellbound for days recalling this episode over and over again in my mind..! ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

Yes Valaya .......... A thread gift to you as you expressed attraction to the 'Saint of Dakshinesvar' ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

THE FIRST VISION OF KALI Mother became to Sri Ramakrishna the only reality and the world became an unsubstantial shadow and, indeed, he soon discovered what a strange Goddess he had chosen to serve. He became gradually enmeshed in the web of Her all-pervading presence. To the ignorant She is, to be sure, the image of destruction; but he found in Her the benign, all-loving Mother. Her neck is encircled with a garland of heads, and Her waist with a girdle of human arms, and two of Her hands hold weapons of death, and Her eyes dart a glance of fire; but, strangely enough, Ramakrishna felt in Her breath the soothing touch of tender love and saw in Her the Seed of Immortality. She stands on the bosom of Her Consort, Siva; it is because She is the Sakti, the Power, inseparable from the Absolute. She is surrounded by jackals and other unholy creatures, the denizens of the cremation ground. But is not the Ultimate Reality above holiness and unholiness? She appears to be reeling under the spell of wine. But who would create this mad world unless under the influence of divine drunkenness? She is the highest symbol of all the forces of nature, the synthesis of their antinomies, the Ultimate Divine in the form of a woman. She now became to Sri Ramakrishna the only Reality, and the world became an unsubstantial shadow. Into Her worship he poured his soul. Before him She stood as the transparent portal to the shrine of Ineffable Reality. Sri Ramakrishna began to spend the whole night in meditation. The worship in the temple intensified Sri Ramakrishna's yearning for a living vision of the Mother of the Universe. He began to spend in meditation the time not actually employed in the temple service; and for this purpose he selected an extremely solitary place. A deep jungle, thick with underbrush and prickly plants, lay to the north of the temples. Used at one time as a burial ground, it was shunned by people even during the day-time for fear of ghosts. There Sri Ramakrishna began to spend the whole night in meditation, returning to his room only in the morning with eyes swollen as though from much weeping. While meditating, he would lay aside his cloth and his brahminical thread. Explaining this strange conduct, he once said to Hriday: "Don't you know that when one thinks of God one should be freed from all ties? From our very birth we have the eight fetters of hatred, shame, lineage, pride of good conduct, fear, secretiveness, caste, and grief. The sacred thread reminds me that I am a brahmin and therefore superior to all. When calling on the Mother one has to set aside all such ideas." Hriday thought his uncle was becoming insane. "Art Thou true, Mother, or is it all fiction?" As his love for God deepened, he began either to forget or to drop the formalities of worship. Sitting before the image, he would spend hours singing the devotional songs of great devotees of the Mother, such as Kamalakanta and Ramprasad. Those rhapsodical songs, describing the direct vision of God, only intensified Sri Ramakrishna's longing. He felt the pangs of a child separated from its mother. Sometimes, in agony, he would rub his face against the ground and weep so bitterly that people, thinking that he had lost his earthly mother, would sympathize with him in his grief. Sometimes, in moments of skepticism, he would cry: "Art Thou true, Mother, or is it all fiction -- mere poetry without any reality? If Thou dost exist, why do I not see Thee? Is religion a mere fantasy and art Thou only a figment of man's imagination?" Sometimes he would sit on the prayer carpet for two hours like an inert object. He began to behave in an abnormal manner, most of the time unconscious of the world. He almost gave up food; and sleep left him altogether. Suddenly the blessed Mother revealed Herself. But he did not have to wait very long. He has thus described his first vision of the Mother: "I felt as if my heart were being squeezed like a wet towel. I was overpowered with great restlessness and a fear that it might not be my lot to realize Her in this life. I could not bear the separation from Her any longer. Life seemed to be not worth living. Suddenly my glance fell on the sword that was kept in the Mother's temple. I determined to put an end to my life. When I jumped up like a madman and seized it, suddenly the blessed Mother revealed Herself. The buildings with their different parts, the temple, and everything else vanished from my sight, leaving no trace whatsoever, and in their stead I saw a limitless, infinite, effulgent Ocean of Consciousness. As far as the eye could see, the shining billows were madly rushing at me from all sides with a terrific noise, to swallow me up! I was panting for breath. I was caught in the rush and collapsed, unconscious. What was happening in the outside world I did not know; but within me there was a steady flow of undiluted bliss, altogether new, and I felt the presence of the Divine Mother." On his lips when he regained consciousness of the world was the word "Mother". GOD-INTOXICATED STATE His many uncommon experiences Yet this was only a foretaste of the intense experiences to come. The first glimpse of the Divine Mother made him the more eager for Her uninterrupted vision. He wanted to see Her both in meditation and with eyes open. But the Mother began to play a teasing game of hide-and-seek with him, intensifying both his joy and his suffering. Weeping bitterly during the moments of separation from Her, he would pass into a trance and then find Her standing before him, smiling, talking, consoling, bidding him be of good cheer, and instructing him. During this period of spiritual practice he had many uncommon experiences. When he sat to meditate, he would hear strange, clicking sounds in the joints of his legs, as if someone were locking them up, one after the other, to keep him motionless; and at the conclusion of his meditation he would again hear the same sounds, this time unlocking them and leaving him free to move about. He would see flashes like a swarm of fire-flies floating before his eyes, or a sea of deep mist around him, with luminous waves of molten silver. Again, from a sea of translucent mist he would behold the Mother rising, first Her feet, then Her waist, body, face, and head, finally Her whole person; he would feel Her breath and hear Her voice. Worshipping in the temple, sometimes he would become exalted, sometimes he would remain motionless as stone, sometimes he would almost collapse from excessive emotion. Many of his actions, contrary to all tradition, seemed sacrilegious to the people. He would take a flower and touch it to his own head, body, and feet, and then offer it to the Goddess. Or, like a drunkard, he would reel to the throne of the Mother, touch Her chin by way of showing affection for Her, and sing, talk, joke, laugh, and dance. Or he would take a morsel of food from the plate and hold it to Her mouth, begging Her to eat it, and would not be satisfied till he was convinced that She had really eaten. After the Mother had been put to sleep at night, from his own room he would hear Her ascending to the upper storey of the temple with the light steps of a happy girl, Her anklets jingling. Then he would discover Her standing with flowing hair. Her black form silhouetted against the sky of the night, looking at the Ganges or at the distant lights of Calcutta. from 'The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna' ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 08-22-2001).]

The Ancient Order of Things Was Overwhelmed by the Buddha by Svami Vivekananda\ (Please keep in mind I am not posting to challenge ANYONE'S conviction's. I am simply posting some of Vivekanandas writings on this subject as some of them are relevant..I do not agree with everything said here, but find much of it fasinating history) 1. The Social Wants at the Time of Buddha Buddhism was the rebellion of the newly formed kshatriyas against Vedic priestcraft. The struggle [between the priests and kings] began to be fiercer. Its culminating point came two thousand years after [the Upanishads] in Buddhism. The seed of Buddhism is here, [in] the ordinary struggle between the king and the priest; and [in the struggle] all religion declined. One wanted to sacrifice religion and the other wanted to cling to the sacrifices, the Vedic gods, etc. [After the lull cause by the reconciliation effected by Sri Krishna], the ambition of the two classes - brahmin and kshatriya - to be the masters of the poor and ignorant was [still] there, and the strife once more became fierce. The meager literature that has come down to us from that period brings to us but faint echoes of that mighty past strife, but at last it broke out as a victory for the kshatriyas, a victory for jnana, for liberty - and ceremonial had to go down, much of it forever. This upheaval is what is known as the Buddhistic reformation. On the religious side, it represented freedom from ceremonial; and on the political side, overthrow of the priesthood by the kshatriyas. It is a significant fact that the two greatest men ancient India produced were both kshatriyas - Krishna and Buddha - and still more significant that both of these God-men threw open the door of knowledge to everyone, irrespective of birth or sex. Though tension [in the triangular fight between ceremonials, philosophy and materialism had been toned down for the time being by Krishna’s teaching], it did not satisfy the social wants which were among the causes - the claim of the king-race to stand first in the scale of caste and the popular intolerance of priestly privilege. Krishna had opened the gates of spiritual knowledge and attainment to all, irrespective of sex or caste, but he left undisturbed the same problem on the social side. This again has come down to our own days, in spite of the gigantic struggle of the Buddhists Vaishnavas, etc., to attain social equality for all. The struggle [was] renewed all along the line in the seventh century before the Christian era and finally in the sixth, overwhelming the ancient order of things under Shakya Muni, the Buddha. On the one hand there was the political jealousy between the kings and priests, and then these different dissatisfied sects [such as the Jains were] springing up everywhere. And there was the greater problem: the vast multitudes of people wanting the same rights as the Aryans, dying of thirst while the perennial stream of nature went flowing by them, and no right to drink a drop of water…. In India [there are] two great races: one is called the Aryan, the other, the non-Aryan. It is the Aryan race that has the three castes, but the whole of the rest are dubbed with one name - shudras - no caste. They are not Aryans at all. (Many people came from outside India and they found the shudras there, the aborigines of the country.) However it may be, these vast masses of non-Aryan people and the mixed people among them, gradually became civilized, and they began to scheme for the same rights as the Aryans…. And the brahmin priest was the great antagonist of such claims. You see, it is the nature of priests in every country - they are the most conservative people, naturally. So long as it is a trade, it must be; it is to their interest to be conservative. So this tide of murmur outside the Aryan pale the priests were trying to check with all their might. Within the Aryan pale, there was also a tremendous religious ferment, and [it was] mostly led by the military caste. Buddhism Combated Not Only Priestcraft and Animal Sacrifice: It was the First to Break Down the Barriers of Caste The intellectual world was divided before Buddha came. But for a correct understanding of his religion, it is also necessary to speak of the caste then existing.... These different social divisions developed or degenerated into iron-bound castes and an organized and crystallized priestcraft stood upon the necks of the nation. At this time Buddha was born and his religion is therefore the culmination of an attempt at religious and social reformation. The air was full of the din of discussion: 20,000 blind priests were trying to lead 20,000,000 blind men, fighting amongst themselves. What was more needed at that time than for a Buddha to preach? "Stop quarreling, throw your books aside, and be perfect!" Buddha never fought true castes, for they are nothing but the congregation of those of a particular natural tendency, and they are always valuable. But Buddha fought the degenerated castes with their hereditary privileges, and spoke to the brahmins: " True brahmins are not greedy, nor criminal, nor angry - are you such? If not, do not mimic the genuine, real men. Caste is a state, not an iron-bound class, and everyone who knows and loves God is a true brahmin." And with regard to the sacrifices, he said, "Where do the Vedas say that sacrifices make us pure? They may please, perhaps, the angels, but they make us no better. Hence, let off these mummeries - love God and strive to be perfect." Original Buddhism... was but an attempt to combat caste and priestcraft; it was the first in the world to stand as champion of dumb animals, the first to break down caste, standing between human beings. Buddhism... broke the chains of the masses. All castes and creeds alike became equal in a minute. Brahmanya power was almost effaced from its field of work in Indian during the Jain and Buddhist revolutions; or, perhaps, was holding its feeble stand by being subservient to the strong, antagonistic religions. Buddha Broke the Mental and Spiritual Bonds of Men by Preaching Vedanta to the Whole World Buddha was the triumph in the struggle that had been going on between the priest and the prophets in India. One thing can be said for these Indian priests - they were not, and never are, intolerant of religion; they never have persecuted religion. Any man was allowed to preach against them. Theirs is such a religion; they never molested any one for his religious views. But they suffered from the peculiar weakness of all priests: they also sought power, they also promulgated rules and regulations and made religion unnecessarily complicated, and thereby undermined the strength of those who followed their religion. India was full of witchcraft in Buddha's day. There were the masses of the people, and they were debarred from all knowledge. If just a word of the Vedas entered the ears of a man, terrible punishment was visited upon him. The priests had made a secret of the Vedas - the Vedas that contained the spiritual truths discovered by the ancient Hindus! At last, one man could bear it no more. He had the brain, the power and the heart - a heart as infinite as the broad sky. He felt how the masses were being led by the priests and how the priests were glorying in their power, and he wanted to do something about it. He did not want power over any one, and he wanted to break the mental and spiritual bonds of men. What Buddha did was to break wide open the gates of that very religion which was confined in the Upanishads and to a particular caste. Advaita (which gets its whole force on the subjective side of man), was never allowed to come to the people. At first some monks got hold of it and took it to the forests, and so it came to be called the "forest philosophy". By the mercy of the Lord, the Buddha came and preached it to the masses, and the whole nation became Buddhists. Shakya Muni was himself a monk, and it was his glory that he had the largeheartedness to bring out the truths from the hidden Vedas and throw them broadcast all over the world. Before the Buddha came, materialism had spread to a fearful extent; and it was of a most hideous kind, not like that of the present day, but of a far worse nature. I am a materialist in a certain sense, because I believe that there is only One. That is what the materialist wants you to believe; only he calls it matter and I call it God. The materialists admit that out of this matter all hope and religion and everything has come. I say all these have come out of Brahman. But the materialism that prevailed before Buddha was that crude sort of materialism which taught, "eat, drink and be merry; there is no God, soul, or heaven; religion is a concoction of wicked priests." It taught the morality that as long as you live, you must try to live happily; eat, though you have to borrow money for the food, and never mind about repaying it. That was the old materialism and that kind of philosophy spread so much that even today it has the name of "popular philosophy". Buddha brought the Vedanta to light, gave it to the people, and saved India. How much good to the world and its beings came out of Buddha's ["fanaticism"]! How many monasteries and schools and colleges, how many public hospitals and veterinary refuges were established! How developed architecture became! ... What was there in India before Buddha's advent? Only a number of religious principles recorded on bundles of palm leaves - and those, too, known only to a few. It was Lord Buddha who brought them down to the practical field and showed how to apply them in the everyday life of the people. In a sense he was the living embodiment of true Vedanta. Shakya Muni came not to destroy; he was the fulfillment, the logical conclusion, the logical development of the religion of the Hindus. Buddhism, one of the most philosophical religions in the world, spread all through the populace, the common people of India. What a wonderful culture there must have been among the Aryans twenty-five hundred years ago, to be able to grasp such ideas! Buddha cut through all the excrescences [of rules and regulations promulgated by the priests]. He preached the most tremendous truths. He taught the very gist of the philosophy of the Vedas to one and all without distinction; he taught it to the world at Large, because one of his great messages was the equality of humanity. Human beings are all equal. No concession there to anybody! Buddha was the great preacher of equality. Every man and woman has the same right to attain spirituality - that was his teaching. The difference between the priests and the other castes he abolished. Even the lowest were entitles to the highest attainments; he opened the door to nirvana to one and all. His teaching was bold, even for India. No amount of preaching can ever shock the Indian soul, but it was hard for India to swallow Buddha's doctrine. The Reasons Why Buddhism Had to Die a Natural Death in India To Break the Tyranny of Priestcraft Buddhism Swept Away the Idea of the Personal God The aim of Buddhism was reform of the Vedic religion, by standing against ceremonials requiring offerings of animals, against hereditary caste and exclusive priesthood, and against belief in permanent souls. It never attempted to destroy that religion, or to overturn the social order. It introduced a vigorous method by Organizing a class of sannyasins into a strong monastic brotherhood and the brahmavadinis into a body of nuns - by introducing images of saints in the place of altar fires…. In their reaction against the privileged priesthood, Buddhists swept off almost every bit of the old ritual of the Vedas, subordinated the gods of the Vedas to the position of servants to their own, human saints, and declared the "Creator and Supreme Ruler" as an invention of priestcraft and superstition. Tyranny and priestcraft have prevailed wherever the idea [of the personal God] existed, and until the lie is knocked on the head, say the Buddhists, tyranny will not cease. So long as man thinks he has to cower before a supernatural being, so long will there be priests to claim rights and privileges to make men cower before them, while these poor men will continue to ask some priest to act as interceder for them. You may do away with the brahmin; but, mark me, those who do so will put themselves in his place and be worse, because the brahmin has a certain amount of generosity in him, but these upstarts are always the worst of tyrannizers. If a beggar gets wealth, he thinks the whole world is a bit of straw. So these priests there must be so long as this personal God idea persists; and it will be impossible to think of any great morality in society. The result of Buddha's constant inveighing against a personal God was the introduction of idols into India. In the Vedas they knew them not, because they saw God everywhere; but the reaction against the loss of God as creator and friend was to make idols, and Buddha became an idol. Buddha's Rejection of All Religious Forms Was an Impossible Ideal Which Could Only Be Carried Out through Monasticism Buddha is said to have denied the Vedas because there was so much killing. Buddha wanted to make truth shine as truth. No softening, no compromise, no pandering to the priests, the powerful, the kings. No bowing before superstitious traditions, however hoary; no respect for forms and books just because they came down from the distant past. He rejected all scriptures, all forms of religious practice. Even the very language, Sanskrit, in which religions had traditionally been taught in India, he rejected, so that his followers would not have any chance to imbibe the superstitions that were associated with it. Buddha made the fatal mistake of thinking that the whole world could be lifted to the height of the Upanishads. And self-interest spoilt all. Krishna was wiser, because he was more politic. But Buddha would have no compromise. The great point of contrast between Buddhism and Hinduism lies in the fact that Buddhism said, "Realize all this as illusion", while Hinduism said, "Realize that within the illusion is the Real." Of how this was to be done, Hindus never presumed to enunciate any rigid law. The Buddhist command could only be carried out through monasticism; the Hindu might be fulfilled through any state of life. All alike were roads to the one Real.... Thus Buddhism became the religion of a monastic order, but Hinduism, in spite of its exaltation of monasticism, remains ever the religion of faithfulness to daily duty, whatever it be, as the path by which man may attain God. Indian Buddhism's Extreme Desire to Be of the People Debased Buddha's Pure and Glorious Ideals We must not have an impossible ideal. An ideal which is too high makes a nation weak and degraded. This happened after the Buddhist and Jain reforms. On the other hand, too much practicality is also wrong. If you have not even a little imagination, if you have no ideal to guide you, you are simply a brute. So we must not lower our idea, neither are we to lose sight of practicality. We must avoid the two extremes. Buddha's work had one great defect, and for that we Indians are suffering, even today. No blame attaches to the Lord. He was pure and glorious; but, unfortunately, such high ideals could not be well assimilated by the different uncivilized and uncultured races of mankind who flocked within the fold of the Aryans. These races, with varieties of superstition and hideous worship, rushed within the fold of the Aryan, and for a time appeared as if they had become civilized; but, before a century had passed, they brought out their snakes, their ghosts, and all the other things their ancestors used to worship, and thus the whole of India became one degraded mass of superstition. The earlier Buddhists, in their rage against the killing of animals, had denounced the sacrifices of the Vedas, which used to be held in every house. There would be a fire burning and that was all the paraphernalia of worship. These sacrifices were obliterated, and in their place came gorgeous temples, gorgeous ceremonies, and gorgeous priests - and all that you see in India in modern times. I smile when I read books written y dome modern people who ought to have known better, that the Buddha was the destroyer of brahminical idolatry. Little do they know that Buddhism created brahminism and idolatry in India. I have every respect for and veneration of Lord Buddha but, mark my words, the spread of Buddhism was less owing to the doctrines and the personality of the great preacher, than to the temples that were built, the idols that were erected, and the gorgeous ceremonials that were put before the nation. Thus Buddhism progressed. The little fireplaces in the houses in which people had poured their libations were not strong enough to hold their own against these gorgeous temples and ceremonies; but later on, the whole thing degenerated. It became a mass of corruption of which I cannot speak before this audience; but those who want to know about it may see a little of it in those big temples, full of sculptures, in Southern India; and that is all the inheritance we have from the Buddhists. The exclusiveness of the old form of Vedic religion debarred it from taking ready help from outside. At the same time, it kept it pure and free from many debasing elements which Buddhism, in it propagandist zeal was forced to assimilate. This extreme adaptability in the long run made Indian Buddhism lose almost all its individuality, and extreme desire to be of the people made it unfit to cope with the intellectual forces of the mother religion in a few centuries. The Vedic party in the meanwhile got rd of a good deal of its most objectionable features, such as animal sacrifice, and took lessons from its rival daughter in the judicious use of images, temple processions, and other impressive performances, and stood ready to take within her fold the whole empire of Buddhism, already tottering to its fall. And the crash came with the Scythian invasions and the total destruction of the empire of Pataliputra. The invaders, already incensed at the invasion of their central Asiatic home by the preachers of Buddhism, found in the sun-worship of the brahmins a great sympathy with their own solar religion - and when the brahminist party was ready to adapt and spiritualize many of the customs of the newcomers, the invaders threw themselves heart and soul into the brahmanic cause. The aims of the Buddhist and Vedic religions were the same, but the means adopted by the Buddhists were not right. If the Buddhist means were correct, then why has [india] been hopelessly lost and ruined? It will not do to say that the efflux of time has naturally wrought this. Can time work, transgressing the laws of cause and effect? On the philosophic side, the disciples of the great Master [buddha] dashed themselves against the theoretical rocks of the Vedas and could not crush them; and on the other side they took away from the nation that eternal God to which everyone, man or woman, clings so fondly. And the result was that Buddhism had to die a natural death in India. At the present day there is not one who calls himself a Buddhist in India, the land of its birth. The Reconquest of India by Systematized Vedanta The Dissipation of Both Priests and Kings in the Period after Buddha It is probable that the [buddhist] reformers had for centuries the majority of the Indian people with them. The older forces, however, were never entirely pacified, and they underwent a good deal of modification during the centuries of Buddhist supremacy. With the deluge that swept the land at the advent of Buddhism the priestly power fell into decay and the royal power was in the ascendant. Buddhist priests are renouncers of the world, living in monasteries and as homeless ascetics, unconcerned with secular affairs. They have neither the will nor the endeavor to bring and keep the royal power under their control through the threat of curses or magic arrows. Even if there were any remnant of such a will, its fulfillment had become then an impossibility. For Buddhism had shaken the thrones of all the oblation-eating gods and brought them down forever from their heavenly positions. The state of being a Buddha was superior to the heavenly positions of many a Brahma or an Indra, who vie with each other in offering their worship at the feet of Buddha, the God-man! And to this Buddhahood, every man or woman has the privilege to attain; it is open to all even in this life. From the descent of the gods, as a natural consequence, the superiority of the priests who were supported by them was gone. Accordingly, the reins of that mighty sacrificial horse - the royal power - were no longer held in the firm grasp of the Vedic priest; and, now being free, it could roam anywhere by its unbridled will. The center of power in that period was neither with the priests chanting the Sama hymns and performing the yajnas according to the Yajur Veda; nor is the power vested in the hands of the kshatriya kings separated from each other and ruling over small, independent states. The center of power in that age was in emperors whose unobstructed sway extended over vast areas bounded by the ocean, covering the whole of India, from one end to the other. The leaders of that age were no longer Vishvamitra or Vashishtha [Vedic rishis], but emperors like Chandragupta, Dharmashoka, and others. There never were emperors who ascended the throne of India and led her to the pinnacle of glory such those lords of the earth who ruled over her in paramount sway during the Buddhist period. The end of this period is characterized by the appearance of Rajput power on the scene, and the re of modern Hinduism. With the rise of Rajput power on the decline of Buddhism, the scepter of Indian empire, dislodged from its paramount power, was again broken into a thousand pieces and wielded by small, powerless hands. At this time the brahminical (priestly) power again succeeded in raising its head, not as an adversary as before, but this time as an auxiliary to the royal supremacy. During this revolution, that perpetual struggle for supremacy between the priestly and the royal classes, which began from the Vedic times and continued through the ages till it reached its climax at the time of the Jain and Buddhist revolutions, had ceased for ever. Now these two powers were friendly to each other; but neither was there any more that glorious kshatra (warlike) valor of the kings, nor that spiritual brilliance which characterized the brahmins; each had lost its former intrinsic strength. As might be expected, this new union of the two forces was soon engaged in the satisfaction of mutual self-interest, and became dissipated by spending its vitality on extirpating their common opponents, especially the Buddhists of the time, and on similar other deeds. Being steeped in the vices consequent on such a union, e.g. sucking of the blood of the masses, taking revenge on the enemy, spoliation of others' property, etc., they in vain tried to imitate the rajusuya and other Vedic sacrifices of the ancient kings, and only made a ridiculous farce of them. The result was they were bound hand and foot by the formidable train of sycophantic attendance and its obsequious flatterers; and, being entangled in an interminable net of rites and ceremonies with flourishes of mantras and the like they soon became a cheap and ready prey to the Islamic invaders from the West.... Brahmanya power, since the appearance of the Rajput power (which held sway over India under the Mihira dynasty and others), made its last effort to recover its lost greatness; and in its effort to establish that supremacy, it sold itself at the feet of the fierce hordes of barbarians [scythians] newly come from Central Asia; and to win their pleasure, introduced into the land their hateful manners and customs. Moreover, the brahmanya power, solely devoting itself to the easy means to dupe the ignorant barbarians, brought into vogue mysterious rites and ceremonies backed by its new mantras, and the like; and, in doing so, itself lost its former wisdom, its former vigor and vitality, and its own chaste habits of long acquirement. Thus it turned the whole of Aryavarta into a deep and vast whirlpool of the most vicious, the most horrible, the most abominable, barbarous customs; and, as the inevitable consequence of countenancing these detestable customs and superstitions, it soon lost all its own internal strength and stamina and became the weakest of the weak. ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 08-20-2001).]

From Hindunet; Interestingly enough, one of the first commentaries on the Bhagavata to be widely accepted was written by Sridhar Svami, who was head of the Sankara Govardhan Math in Orissa. Despite his background, Sridhar Svami also saw the Bhagavata Purana as the shining sound incarnation of Krishna for Kali Yuga. I guess this is not surprising, as the completely wise Ananda Tirtha had also taken initiation into the Sankara school, but then upon seeing the inconsistencies of Advaita, went on to comment on Brahma-sutra, Rg Veda, Bhagavata, etc. So, Ananda Tirtha/Purnaprajna Tirtha/Madhvacarya established the modern Vaisnava school known as Dvaita, having rejected Advaita. ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

Go get mad on some other thread Pita.. I am surpised you don't even who S.K.De was? It show's your not well educated in the circles of scholars who have studied Sri Chaitanya in the last century. S.K. De's writing have been quoted in many research books on Sri Chaitanya and his followers. He was a Professor of Sanskrit in the University of Dacca and in the Postgraduate Research Department of Calcutta University, also Professor Emeritus at Jadavpur University and Honorary Fellow of the Royal Asiatic Society. He is not so much held for his conclusions on Siddhanta contained within, but as far historical research, he wasw unsurpased in the field of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. According to Professor Edward Dimock..(who wrote the intro to 'Bhagavad Gita As It Is'..."I owe my greatest debt to Sushil Kumar De who wrote the definitive work of Bengal Vaishnavism a model of erudition and graceful prose entitiled 'The Early History of the Vaishnava Faith and Movement'in Bengal, upon which I have drawn unashamedly and gratefully, but was instrumential in my beginning the present work by urging me to continue to examine the seventeenth and eighteenth century phases of the Vaishnava movement. In calcutta in 1955-57, in Chaigo in 1961, and again in Calcutta in 1963-64, he gave me freely and graciously of his time and knowledge." S.K. DE was NOT a Guru..he didn't come in some Vaishnava Parivara..(by the way Pita ...which Parivar of Sri Chaitanya lineage is your diksha taken in...? ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

he ha ha ....like Prabupadas tabacco/snuff lila debate goin on right now on some other forum! How could we mere mortals understand ..? I think they put out the fire before it sent out too many smoke signals! ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

Sridhara Svamin in his commentary on the Srimad Bhagavatam attempted to COMBINE the Advaita teachings of Sankara with the Devotionalism of the Bhagavatas. ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

or you could use as discus! ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

Sushil Kumar De in his 'Vaishnava Faith and Movement' states that it appears probable that Madhvendra Puri and his disciple Isvara Puri were Sankarite Samnyasins of the same type as Sridhara Svamin. Sridhara Svamin in his commentary on the Srimad Bhagavatam attempted to COMBINE the Advaita teachings of Sankara with the Devotionalism of the Bhagavatas. Devotion to Krishna or Narayan has never been considered inconsistent with one's belonging to the Sankara Sampradaya, many taught that Advaita realization could be attained through worship of a particular diety as a person or a symbol. The tutelary deity of Sankara himself was Krishna, although his chief disciple, (like Sridhar) worshipped Nrsimha. Around the time of Sridhar Svaimin there seems to have developed a type of 'Tempering' (in S.K.De's words) of the severe monistic idealism of Advaita Vedanta with the 'Devotional Worship' of a personal GOD. Sridhar Svamin reveals this tendency in his well known commentary on the Vishnu Purana, Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam, in which he acknowledges Samkara's teachings as authoritative AND considers Bhakti as the BEST means of Advaita Mukti. ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 08-17-2001).]

talasiga: Enough, enough, of the namaskaars and pranaams. Did you bring the JELEBIS ?! jijaji: Nice and HOT...! ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 08-17-2001).]

Unfortunately we cannot hope to understand such lilas with our 'imperfect' senses [it would be a grave aparAdha to try to do so] and hence, we shall leave it those who have 'perfect' senses.

ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE..! ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

This story has no historical substance because Chaitanya had already passed on by the time Francis arrived in India... you got that right..? ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

-- St. Francis Xavier's Miraculous Body 1506-1552 : 46 years at a glance -- 1506 : The Sixth and last child is born to Dr. João de Jasso and Maria d'Aspilcueta at the Xavier castle (Navarra- Spain) on April 7. The boy is named Francis. 1512 : Navarra is attacked by Spain and declared its province. The father of young Francis is not able to survive such a disgrace and dies four months later. 1514 : After continuous wars, peace is declared and people accept the sovereignity of Spain. 1525 : Eighteen year old Francis leaves his ancestral home and is on the way to France for studies in the world renowned University of Paris. 1529 : In the College of Barbara, Francis shares his room with Pedro Fabro and Inigo de Loiola who would be later instrumental in changing the attitude of Francis by dinning into his ear the famous words of Jesus: What does it profit a man to gain the whole world if he looses his own soul? 1534 : The Converted Francis joins Inigo, with some other friends; they all promise to serve Jesus in poverty and chastity. 1537 : After leaving Paris the previous year, they go to Rome to be blessed by the Pope before their pilgrimage to the Holy Land (Jerusalem). On June 24, Francis is ordained priest together with Inácio (Inigo), Lainez, Rodrigues, Bobadilha and Coduri. They preach and nurse the sick in the city. They form a society under the banner of their Lord and Captain, Jesus. 1538 : Unable to go to the Holy Land due to the war, they present themselves to the Pope ready to go anywhere, to be always at his disposal. The foundation of a permanent society is proposed and the Rule is presented to the Pope for approval. Ignatius of Loyola deputes St. Francis to the Orient 1539 : At the request of the King of Portugal, one member is chosen to go to distant India, but he falls terribly sick and Francis is asked to take his place. 1540 : After a long journey Francis reaches Lisbon, accompanied by the Portuguese Ambassador Dom Pedro Mascarenhas. 1541 : The zealous Francis embarks for India on April 7, in the company of the new Governer Dom Martim Afonso. The Pope had appointed Francis his Nuncio, for the remote East. **1542 : Francis lands in Goa after a long and strenous voyage of eight months. He visits first the Bishop who is highly pleased with Francis' humility in spite of his being the Pontifical Nuncio. Leaving aside the special invitations of both the Governor and the Bishop, he chooses the Royal Hospital for his residence and spends his days nursing the sick and teaching christian doctrine. 1542 : A new institute named College of St. Paul had been established in Goa for the priestly formation of local candidates. Francis was requested to hold the rectorship of this College, but his heart was longing for the souls who had never a chance to listen to the message of Jesus. Soon after monsoon he leaves for Cochin, the most important Portuguese province next to Goa. 1543 : Francis preaches the Gospel to the Paravas of the Fischery Coast who lived by pearl fishing. In October, Francis returns to Goa to meet his confreres and to obtain funds from the Vice-Roy for the establishment of cathechists in the villages. Due to insistent requests he stays at the College of St. Paul. In December he goes again to Cochin. 1544 : He organizes the missionary work in these regions with great zeal; he is respected by the people as a saintly priest. 1545 : Francis pays homage to St. Thomas the Apostle, visiting his tomb. He spends the day preaching and caring for the sick and praying at the Apostle's tomb during night. Francis leaves for Malacca in August. He translates the important articles of faith for the benefit of local people. At the same time he collects all possible information about Japan and China. 1547 : After many visits to the surrounding areas where he had preached Jesus Christ with great success, he returns to Malacca where more missionaries had come at his request. 1548 : Francis returns to Goa. His attention had been drawn towards Japan since he had met the Japanese Angero who described the situation with minute details. There were already three Japanese students in the College of St. Paul. Francis stays only nine days in Goa; thereafter he proceeds to Bassein and meets the Governor Dom João de Castro in order to discuss some missionary problems. In April, he returns to Goa and sends more priests to Malacca. He is busy planning his visit to Japan; at the same time he takes keen interest in the formation of the students of College of St. Paul. 1548 : The monsoon prevents him from going to Cape Comorin but he goes there in October and is welcomed with great joy by the Paravas. He advises Fr. Henriques to compose a Tamil grammar for the study of the local language. By the end of November, Francis is back in Goa. 1549 : The time is come to go to Japan. Francis takes leave of all his brothers at St. Paul. Many tears are shed and many express their wish to join Francis. Our "travelling priest" Francis goes to Japan but his attention turns now and then to the College of St. Paul which was the scene of many troubles caused by Fr. António Gomes. On August 15, Francis treads for the first time on the Japanese soil. 1550 : Francis studies the Japanese people and their religion. While the people are all ears to him, many difficulties are created by the bonzes. He learns the Japanese language and summarizes the Christain doctrine, in that language. St. Francis baptises locals 1551 : Francis visits the King of Bungo, a Japanese island. The King appreciates very much the Christian doctrine, so much so that he abandons his nonzes and favours Francis, as well as his friends. Francis plans a trip to China; it is a must for him. At the same time he looks after the needs of different missions, sending missionaries from Goa. He maintains regular epistolar contact with all the missionaries and specially with his Superior Inácio de Loiola. 1552 : Francis reaches Goa in February, with two Japanese companions. He is accorded a royal welcome at the College of St. Paul. He spends only two months in this College but his words and actions leave indelible marks in the hearts of all. April : Francis leaves for China accompanied by Fr. Gago, Bro. Álvaro Ferreira, the Chinese António de Santa Fé and the Indian servant Cristóvão. During this voyage he visits the missions of Cochin and Malacca. From Singapore they go to the island of Sancian on the way to China. November : His friends persuade him to cancel his trip to China but Francis would not change his mind; he is ready to face any danger for the sake of Christ. He is left alone in the island of Sancian with António and Cristóvão. A Chinese merchant had promised to take him to China but he never came. December : Francis is seized with fever; his health deteriorates rapidly. António sees that the moment has come and puts the crucifix into the hands of dying Francis. Early in the morning of December 3, Francis sleeps for ever in the peace of Christ, worn out and white haired from his strenuous life, at the young age of 46. "Throughout his stay in the East, he kept in touch with local wants and developments and proferred necessary advice and guidance. His heart was burning with love of God and men; but his head was ever busy with the work of building the Church on stable foundations, Throughout the East... his insistence on Colleges, where, both secular and clerical learning would be imparted, and where native priests would receive the necessary training, is an example of his foresight. Humble and meek as he was in his life and conduct, he knew when to be firm and stern, especially to men in power, whether civil or ecclesiastical, who thwarted his designs." ** If Francis arrived in Goa in 1542 how could he have had discussions with Chaitanya, whom historians say left this material world around 1533 or 1534 A.D.? Where do people hear these things..? worse yet...many believe them..! ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

nididhyasana Subjective meditation is called nididhyasana or atma-vicara. Here there is no focussing of consciousness or effort of will. It is rather an attempt to seek the source of consciousness, to trace one’s "I" back to its roots. It is a process in which the ego, instead of rushing towards objects as it constantly does, withdraws into its own original source—the Atman. The majority of spiritual aspirants find nididhyasana, subjective meditation, difficult to practice. They succeed in tracing their "I" back only up to a certain point. To penetrate further backward is possible only for a mind which is properly sharpened through training and strengthened by the observance of continence. Upasana or objective meditation gives the mind the necessary training. After practicing upasana for some time it becomes easier to practice nididhyasana. ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

Ramaswamy, What did you think of Ammaji..? Did did she not satisfy your search for Sad-Guru..? Did she give you a HUG..? I know she is famous for her HUGGS..? jijaji ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

more on pancAyatana pUjA, In certain orthodox traditions the five divinities of the main tradition are all worshipped together through a sophisticated ritual called, pancAyatana pUjA, meaning worship at five altars. Here the divinities are worshipped not in their human-like forms but in certain symbols in the form of stones, which are nothing but certain rock formations available in specified locations in India. In this scheme of things, gaNeSa is the red somabhadra stone found in the bed of the river Sone flowing into the Ganges. The pancAyatana pUjA tradition may be taken as an intermediate stage between the worship of Godhead with form and the worship of the formless, because the symbols of worship as rock formations have certainly a form but they are also formless in that they have no parts like face, eyes, body, hands or feet. It is as though the devotee trains himself to tune the mind from the forms to the formless while at the same time allowing full scope for his devotional feelings in favour of worship of the form. ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

beautiful... ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

From a d v a i t a v e d A n t a FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS "Questions of who is superior, VishNu or Siva, which are very popular among many groups of Hindus, are not relished by advaitins." **I like this very much..yea baby! ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW-OPEN YOUR HEART-STOP DOGMA [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 08-14-2001).]

You stiil on that 'Lute Shloka' talasigaji..? Or are you just trying to get my attention... your a poet and ya know it..! namaskar pranams ji, jijaji ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW

a d v a i t a v e d A n t a FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ====================================================================== by Vidyasankar Sundaresan FAQ8: How does worship by advaitins differ from worship in other schools of vedAnta? ---- Very markedly. The orthoprax advaita tradition is closely allied to the smArta tradition. which follows the system of pancAyatana pUjA, where vishNu, Siva, Sakti, gaNapati and sUrya (alternatively skanda) are worshipped as forms of saguNa brahman. The worship is done both on a daily basis and on specific festival occassions dedicated to one of the Gods. Questions of who is superior, vishNu or Siva, which are very popular among many groups of Hindus, are not relished by advaitins. In the words of Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati (1892 - 1954), the accomplished jIvanmukta, "you cannot see the feet of the Lord, why do you waste your time debating about the nature of His face?" That said, vishNu and Siva, the Great Gods of Hinduism, are both very important within the advaita tradition. The sannyAsIs of the advaita order always sign their correspondence with the words "iti nArAyaNasmaraNam". In worship, advaitins do not insist on exclusive worship of one devatA alone. As brahman is essentially formless (nirguNa ), all forms (guNas) are held to equally belong to It. The particular form that the devotee prefers to worship is called the ishTa-devatA. The ishTa-devatAs worshipped by advaitins include vishNu as kr.shNa, the jagadguru, and as rAma, Siva as dakshiNAmUrti, the guru who teaches in silence, and as candramaulISvara, and the Mother Goddess as pArvatI, lakshmI and sarasvatI. Especially popular are the representations of vishNu as a SAlagrAma, Siva as a linga, and Sakti as the SrI-cakra. gaNapati is always worshipped at the beginning of any human endeavor, including the pUjA of other Gods. The daily sandhyAvandana ritual is addressed to sUrya. The sannyAsis of the advaita sampradAya recite both the vishNu sahasranAmam and the SatarudrIya portion of the yajurveda as part of their daily worship. There is another significant distinction between worship in the advaita tradition and other kinds of Hindu worship. advaita insists that the distinction between the worshipper and God, the object of worship, is transcended in samAdhi. This position should not be confused with that of some Saiva schools, which call for a ritual identification of the worshipper with Siva, for the duration of the worship. The identity of Atman and brahman is a matter of absolute truth, not just a temporary ritual identification. Most vaishNava schools of vedAnta hold that the distinction between the worshipper and God, the object of worship, is eternally maintained. ------------------ PEACE OUT NOW