jijaji

shvu, I ran across this article on a site you recommended to me, realization.org. Just wanted your feedback on this..1st time I had read it.

jnda says; That's funny, becaue these forums never had anything to do with Gaudiya Vaishnavism until some cyber babas came in from the old VNN forums > You never had ANYTHING to do with Gaudiya Vaishnavism? Sir that is the proper name of followers of Sri Chaitanya..what do you call youself a 'Hare Krishna'..? Also so sorry we have pointed out that Gaudiya Math and it's branches belong to NO authentic Guru-paramparaa within Sri Chaitanyas religion, but it's the TRUTH. Hare Krishna ;^) ------------------ PEACE NOW

Premananda, Thanks so much for such a cool site! ------------------ PEACE NOW

OK OK..... I'm gonna post some stories of Radharamana Charan Das Deva... I don't have a scanner as of yet and will have to type out ..so be patient I'm a slow typist! He was so cool guys! jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

Ananta Vasudeva was also known as Puri Maharaja and was not only learned, but was the man chosen by Bhaktisiddhanta to replace him after his death. Sundarananda Vidyavinoda was one of the leading writers and thinkers of the Gaudiya Math and the editor of the Math's monthly journal for years. A few years after Bhaktisiddhanta's passing, the year 1941 sticks in my memory, Puri Maharaja and Sundarananda Vidyavinoda left the Gaudiya Math, but not alone. A number of followers left with them and settled in various places around Vraja to do bhajana, i.e. hari-nama and lila-smarana. When Puri Maharaja discovered the lack of initiation in the Gaudiya Math lineage, he called all of the leading sannyasi in the Math organization together and informed them of his discovery. He advised them: "You all may as well go home and get married. Continuing this charade is useless". (It has never been clear what charade Puri Maharaj had in mind, the Vaisnava charade or the sannyasa charade. Judging from his later actions he probably meant both) He then took his own advice taking off his saffron robe and heading to Vrindaban where he at first hid from the anger of his former god-brothers. When he arrived in Vrindaban he was given shelter by Vishvambhar Goswami, one of the Radharaman Goswamis. Shortly thereafter he publicly renounced the Gaudiya Math and apologized for all of the offenses he committed as a prominent member and leader of it. He later married and settled in Vrindaban producing over the years one of the finest collections (more than fifty volumes) of Gaudiya scripture ever to be produced. [This message has been edited by jijaji (edited 05-14-2001).]

shvuji, Perhaps you are right, time this old warrior leave the battlefield and take up some serious secluded bhajana. Problem is ....I'm a radical before my time! Sorry if I rattled ya all... ------------------ PEACE NOW

Gaudapada's Philosophy Gaudapada was the first philosopher of the Advaita Vedanta school. This article, written by the author of a standard academic history of Indian philosophy, summarizes Gaudapada's views. By SURENDRANATH DASGUPTA Excerpted from A History of Indian Philosophy Volume I, Chapter X. A current edition can be ordered from South Asia Books. IT IS USELESS I THINK to attempt to bring out the meaning of the Vedanta thought as contained in the Brahma-sutras without making any reference to the commentary of Sankara or any other commentator. There is reason to believe that the Brahma-sutras were first commented upon by some Vaisnava writers who held some form of modified dualism.1 There have been more than a half dozen Vaisnava commentators of the Brahma-sutras who not only differed from Sankara's interpretation, but also differed largely amongst themselves in accordance with the different degrees of stress they laid on the different aspects of their dualistic creeds. Every one of them claimed that his interpretation was the only one that was faithful to the sutras and to the Upanisads. Should I attempt to give an interpretation myself and claim that to be the right one, it would be only just one additional view. But however that may be, I am myself inclined to believe that the dualistic interpretations of the Brahmasutras were probably more faithful to the sutras than the interpretations of Sankara. The Srimadbhagavadgita, which itself was a work of the Ekanti (singularistic) Vaisnavas, mentions the Brahma-sutras as having the same purport as its own, giving cogent reasons.2 Professor Jacobi in discussing the date of the philosophical sutras of the Hindus has shown that the references to Buddhism found in the Brahma-sutras are not with regard to the Vijñanavada of Vasubandhu, but with regard to the Sunyavada, but he regards the composition of the Brahma-sutras to be later than Nagarjuna. I agree with the late Dr S. C. Vidyabhushana in holding that both the Yogacara system and the system of Nagarjuna evolved from the Prajnaparamita.3 Nagarjuna's merit consisted in the dialectical form of his arguments in support of Sunyavada; but so far as the essentials of Sunyavada are concerned I believe that the Tathata philosophy of Asvaghosa and the philosophy of the Prajnaparamita contained no less. There is no reason to suppose that the works of Nagarjuna were better known to the Hindu writers than the Mahayana sutras. Even in such later times as that of Vacaspati Misra, we find him quoting a passage of the Salistambha sutra to give an account of the Buddhist doctrine of pratityasamutpada.4 We could interpret any reference to Sunyavada as pointing to Nagarjuna only if his special phraseology or dialectical methods were referred to in any way. On the other hand, the reference in the Bhagavadgita to the Brahma-sutras clearly points out a date prior to that of Nagarjuna; though we may be slow to believe such an early date as has been assigned to the Bhagavadgita by Telang, yet I suppose that its date could safely be placed so far back as the first half of the first century B.C. or the last part of the second century B.C. The Brahma-sutras could thus be placed slightly earlier than the date of the Bhagavadgita. I do not know of any evidence that would come in conflict with this supposition. The fact that we do not know of any Hindu writer who held such monistic views as Gaudapada or Sankara and who interpreted the Brahma-sutras in accordance with those monistic ideas, when combined with the fact that the dualists had been writing commentaries on the Brahma-sutras, goes to show that the Brahma-sutras were originally regarded as an authoritative work of the dualists. This also explains the fact that the Bhagavadgita, the canonical work of the Ekanti Vaisnavas, should refer to it. I do not know of any Hindu writer previous to Gaudapada who attempted to give an exposition of the monistic doctrine (apart from the Upanisads), either by writing a commentary as did Sankara, or by writing an independent work as did Gaudapada. I am inclined to think therefore that as the pure monism of the Upanisads was not worked out in a coherent manner for the formation of a monistic system, it was dealt with by people who had sympathies with some form of dualism which was already developing in the later days of the Upanisads, as evidenced by the dualistic tendencies of such Upanisads as the Svetasvatara, and the like. The epic Samkya was also the result of this dualistic development. It seems that Badaryana, the writer of the Brama-sutras, was probably more a theist, than an absolutist like his commentator Sankara. Gaudapada seems to be the most important man, after the Upanisad sages, who revived the monistic tendencies of the Upanisads in a bold and clear form and tried to formulate them in a systematic manner. It seems very significant that no other karikas on the Upanisads were interpreted, except the Mandukyakarika by Gaudapada, who did not himself make any reference to any other writer of the monistic school, not even Badardyana. Sankara himself makes the confession that the absolutist (advaita) creed was recovered from the Vedas by Gaudapada. Thus at the conclusion of his commentary on Gaudapada's karika, he says that "he adores by falling at the feet of that great guru (teacher) the adored of his adored, who on finding all the people sinking in the ocean made dreadful by the crocodiles of rebirth, out of kindness for all people, by churning the great ocean of the Veda by his great churning rod of wisdom recovered what lay deep in the heart of the Veda, and is hardly attainable even by the immortal gods."5 It seems particularly significant that Sankara should credit Gaudapada and not Badarayana with recovering the the Upanisad creed. Gaudapada was the teacher of Govinda, the teacher of Sankara; but he was probably living when Sankara was a student, for Sankara says that he was directly influenced by his great wisdom, and also speaks of the learning, self-control and modesty of the other pupils of Gaudapada.6 There is some dispute about the date of Sankara, but accepting the date proposed by Bhandarkar, Pathak and Deussen, we may consider it to be 788 A.D.,7 and suppose that in order to be able to teach Sankara, Gaudapada must have been living till at least 800 A.D. Gaudapada thus flourished after all the great Buddhist teachers Asvaghosa, Nagarjuna, Asanga and Vasubandhu; and I believe that there is sufficient evidence in his karikas for thinking that he was possibly himself a Buddhist, and considered that the teachings of the Upanisads tallied with those of Buddha. Thus at the beginning of the fourth chapter of his karikas he says that he adores that great man (dvipadam varam) who by knowledge as wide as the sky realized (sambuddha) that all appearances (dharma) were like the vacuous sky (gaganopamam8). He then goes on to say that he adores him who has dictated (desita) that the touch of untouch (asparsayoga -- probably referring to Nirvana) was the good that produced happiness to all being, and that he was neither in disagreement with this doctrine nor found any contradiction in it (avivadah aviruddhasca). Some disputants hold that coming into being is of existents, whereas others quarrelling with them hold that being (jata) is of non-existents (abhutasya); there are others who quarrel with them and say that neither the existents nor non-existents are liable to being and there is one non-coming-into-being (advayamajatim). He agrees with those who hold that there is no coming into being.9 In IV. 19 of his karika he again says that the Buddhas have shown that there was no coming into being in any way (sarvatha Buddhairajatih paridipitah). Again, in IV. 42 he says that it was for those realists (vastuvadi), who since they found things and could deal with them and were afraid of non-being, that the Buddhas had spoken of origination (jati). In IV. 90 he refers to agrayana which we know to be a name of Mahayana. Again, in IV. 98 and 99 he says that all appearances are pure and vacuous by nature. These the Buddhas, the emancipated one (mukta) and the leaders know first. It was not said by the Buddha that all appearances (dharma) were knowledge. He then closes the karikas with an adoration which in all probability also refers to the Buddha.10 Gaudapada's work is divided into four chapters: (I) Agama (scripture), (2) Vaitathya (unreality), (3) Advaita (unity), (4) Alatasant (the extinction of the burning coal). The first chapter is more in the way of explaining the Mandukya Upanisad by virtue of which the entire work is known as Mandukyakarika. The second, third, and fourth chapters are the constructive parts of Gaudapada's work, not particularly connected with the Mandukya Upanisad. In the first chapter Gaudapada begins with the three apparent manifestations of the self: (I) as the experiencer of the external world while we are awake (visva or vaisvanara atma), (2) as the experiencer in the dream state (taijasa atma), (3) as the experiencer in deep sleep (susupti), called the prajña when there is no determinate knowledge, but pure consciousness and pure bliss (ananda). He who knows these three as one is never attached to his experiences. Gaudapada then enumerates some theories of creation: some think that the world has proceeded as a creation from the prana (vital activity), others consider creation as an expansion (vibhuti) of that cause from which it has proceeded; others imagine that creation is like dream (svapna) and magic (maya); others, that creation proceeds simply by the will of the Lord; others that it proceeds from time; others that it is for the enjoyment of the Lord (bhogartham) or for his play only (kridartham), for such is the nature (svabhava) of the Lord, that he creates, but he cannot have any longing, as all his desires are in a state of fulfilment. Gaudapada does not indicate his preference one way or the other, but describes the fourth state of the self as unseen (adrsta), unrelationable (avyavaharyam), ungraspable (agrahyam), indefinable (alaksana), unthinkable (acintyam), unspeakable (avyapadeskya), the essence as oneness with the self (ekatmapratyayasara), as the extinction of the appearance (prapancopasama), the quiescent (santam), the good (sivam), the one (advaita).11 The world-appearance (prapanca) would have ceased if it had existed, but, all this duality is mere maya (magic or illusion), the one is the ultimately real (paramaarthatah). In the second chapter Gaudapada says that what is meant by calling the world a dream is that all existence is unreal. That which neither exists in the beginning nor in the end cannot be said to exist in the present. Being like unreal it appears as real. The appearance has a beginning and an end and is therefore false. In dreams things are imagined internally, and in the experience that we have when we are awake things are imagined as if existing outside, but both of them are but illusory creations of the self. What is perceived in the mind is perceived as existing at the moment of perception only; external objects are supposed to have two moments of existence (namely before they are perceived, and when they begin to be perceived), but this is all mere imagination. That which is unmanifested in the mind and that which appears as distinct and manifest outside are all imaginary productions in association with the sense faculties. There is first the imagination of a perceiver or soul (jiva) and then along with it the imaginary creations of diverse inner states and the external world. Just as in darkness the rope is imagined to be a snake, so the self is also imagined by its own illusion in diverse forms. There is neither any production nor any destruction (na nirodho, na cotpattih), there is no one who is enchained, no one who is striving, no one who wants to be released.12 Imagination finds itself realized in the non-existent existents and also in the sense [p. 426] of unity; all imagination either as the many or the one (advaya) is false; it is only the oneness (advayata) that is good. There is no many, nor are things different or non-different (na nanedam... na prthag naprthak).13 The sages who have transcended attachment, fear, and anger and have gone beyond the depths of the Vedas have perceived it as the imaginationless cessation of all appearance (nirvikalpah prapancopasamah), the one.14 In the third chapter Gaudapada says that truth is like the void (akasa) which is falsely conceived as taking part in birth and death, coming and going and as existing in all bodies; but howsoever it be conceived, it is all the while not different from akasa. All things that appear as compounded are but dreams (svapna) and maya (magic). Duality is a distinction imposed upon the one (advaita) by maya. The truth is immortal, it cannot therefore by its own nature suffer change. It has no birth. All birth and death, all this manifold is but the result of an imposition of maya upon it.15 One mind appears as many in the dream, so also in the waking state one appears as many, but when the mind activity of the Togins (sages) is stopped arises this fearless state, the extinction of all sorrow, final cessation. Thinking everything to be misery (duhkham sarvam anusmrtya) one should stop all desires and enjoyments, and thinking that nothing has any birth he should not see any production at all. He should awaken the mind (citta) into its final dissolution (laya) and pacify it when distracted, he should not move it towards diverse objects when it stops. He should not taste any pleasure (sukham) and by wisdom remain unattached, by strong effort making it motionless and still. When he neither passes into dissolution nor into dis traction; when there is no sign, no appearance that is the perfect Brahman. When there is no object of knowledge to come into being, the unproduced is then called the omniscent (sarvajna). In the fourth chapter, called the Alatasanti, Gaudapada further describes this final state.16 All the dharmas (appearances) are without death or decay.17 Gaudapada then follows a dialectical form of argument which reminds us of Nagarjuna. Gaudapada continues thus: Those who regard karana (cause) as the karyya (effect in a potential form) cannot consider the cause as truly unproduced (aja), for it suffers production; how can it be called eternal and yet changing? If it is said that things come into being from that which has no production, there is no example with which such a case may be illustrated. Nor can we consider that anything is born from that which has itself suffered production. How again can one come to a right conclusion about the regressus ad infinitum of cause and effect (hetu and phala)? Without reference to the effect there is no cause, and without reference to cause there is no effect. Nothing is born either by itself or through others; call it either being, non- being, or being-non-being, nothing suffers any birth, neither the cause nor the effect is produced out of its own nature (svabhavatah), and thus that which has no beginning anywhere cannot be said to have a production. All experience (prajnapti) is dependent on reasons, for otherwise both would vanish, and there would be none of the afflictions (samklesa) that we suffer. When we look at all things in a connected manner they seem to be dependent, but when we look at them from the point of view of reality or truth the reasons cease to be reasons. The mind (citta) does not come in touch with objects and thereby manifest them, for since things do not exist they are not different from their manifestations in knowledge. It is not in any particular case that the mind produces the manifestations of objects while they do not exist so that it could be said to be an error, for in present, past, and future the mind never comes in touch with objects which only appear by reason of their diverse manifestations. Therefore neither the mind nor the objects seen by it are ever produced. Those who perceive them to suffer production are really traversing the reason of vacuity (khe), for all production is but false imposition on the vacuity. Since the unborn is perceived as being born, the essence then is the absence of production, for it being of the nature of absence of production it could never change its nature. Everything has a beginning and an end and is therefore false. The existence of all things is like a magical or illusory elephant (mayahasti) and exists only as far as it merely appears or is related to experience. There is thus the appearance of production, movement and things, but the one knowledge (vijñana) is the unborn, unmoved, the unthingness (avastutva), the cessation (santam). As the movement of burning charcoal is perceived as straight or curved, so it is the movement (spandita) of consciousness that appears as the perceiving and the perceived. All the attributes (eg. straight or curved) are imposed upon the charcoal fire, though in reality it does not possess them; so also all the appearances are imposed upon consciousness, though in reality they do not possess them. We could never indicate any kind of causal relation between the consciousness and its appearance, which are therefore to be demonstrated as unthinkable (acintya). A thing (dravya) is the cause of a thing (dravya), and that which is not a thing may be the cause of that which is not a thing, but all the appearances are neither things nor those which are not things, so neither are appearances produced from the mind (citta), nor is the mind produced by appearances. So long as one thinks of cause and effect he has to suffer the cycle of existence (samsara), but when that notion ceases there is no samsara. All things are regarded as being produced from a relative point of view only (samtvrti), there is therefore nothing permanent (sasvata). Again, no existent things are produced, hence there cannot be any destruction (uccheda). Appearances (dharma) are produced only apparently, not in reality; their coming into being is like maya, and that maya again does not exist. All appearances are like shoots of maaic coming out of seeds of magic and are not therefore neither eternal nor destructible. As in dreams, or in magic, men are born and die, so are all appearances. That which appears as existing from an imaginary relative point of view (kalpita samvrti) is not so in reality (paramartha), for the existence depending on others, as shown in all relative appearance, is after all not a real existence. That things exist, do not exist, do exist and not exist, and neither exist nor not exist; that they are moving or steady, or none of those, are but thoughts with which fools are deluded. It is so obvious that these doctrines are borrowed from the Madhyamika doctrines, as found in the Nagarjuna's karikas and the Vijnavada doctrines, as found in Lahkavatara, that it is needless to attempt to prove it. Gaudapada assimilated all the Buddhist Sunyavada and Vijñanavada teachings, and thought that these held good of the ultimate truth preached by the Upanisads. It is immaterial whether he was a Hindu or a Buddhist, so long as we are sure that he had the highest respect for the Buddha and for the teachings which he believed to be his. Gaudapada took the smallest Upanisads to comment upon, probably because he wished to give his opinions unrestricted by the textual limitations of the bigger ones. His main emphasis is on the truth that he realized to be perfect. He only incidentally suggested that the great Buddhist truth of indefinable and unspeakable vijnana or vacuity would hold good of the highest atman of the Upanisads, and thus laid the foundation of a revival of the Upanisad studies on Buddhist lines. How far the Upanisads guaranteed in detail the truth of Gaudapada's views it was left for his disciple, the great Sankara, to examine and explain. Notes 1. This point will be dealt with in the 2nd volume, when I shall deal with the systems expounded by the Vaisnava commentators of the Brahma-sutras. 2. *"Brahmasutrapadaiscaiva hetumadbhirviniscitah" Bhagavadgita. The proofs in support of the view that the Bhagavadgita is a Vaisnava work will be discussed in the 2nd volume of the present work in the section on Bhagavadgita and its philosophy. 3. Indian Antiquary, 1915. 4. See Vacaspati Misra's Bhamati on Sankara's bhasya on Brahma-sutra, II. ii. 5. Sankara's bhasya on Gaudapada's karika, Anandasrama edition, p. 214. 6. Anandasrama edition of Sankara's bhasya on Gaudapada's karika, p.21. 7. Telang wishes to put Sankara's date somewhere in the 8th century, and Venkatesvara would have him in 805 A.D.-897 A.D., as he did not believe that Sankara could have lived only for 32 years. J.R.A.S. 1916. 8. Compare Lankavatara, p. 29, Katham ca gaganopamam. 9. Gaudapada's karika, IV. 2, 4. 10. Gaudapada's karika, IV. 100. In my translation I have not followed Sankara, for he has I think tried his level best to explain away even the most obvious references to Buddha and Buddhism in Gaudapida's karika. I have, therefore, drawn my meaning directly as Gaudapada's karikas seemed to indicate. I have followed the same principle in giving the short exposition of Gaudapada's philosophy below. 11. Compare in Nagarjuna's first karika the idea of prapanocopasamam sivam. Anirodhamanutpadamanucchedamasasvatam anekarthamananarthamanagamamanirgamam yah pratityasamutpadam prapancopasamam sivam desayamasa sambuddhastam vande vadatamvaram. Compare also Nagarjuna's Chapter on Nirvanapariksa, Purvopalambhopasamah prapancopasamah sivah na kvacit kasyacit kascit dharmmo buddhenadesitah. So far as I know the Buddhists were the first to use the words prapancopasamam sivam. 12. Compare Nagarjuna's karika, "anirodhamanutpadam" in Madhyamikavrtti, B.T.S., p. 3. 13. Compare Madhyamikakarika, B.T.S., p. 3, anekartham ananartham, etc. 14. Compare Lankavatarasutra, p. 78, Advayasamsaraparinirvanavatsarvadharmah tasmat tarhi mahamate Sunyatanutpadadvayanihsvabhavalaksane yogah karaniyah; also 8, 46, Yaduta svacittavisayavikalpadrstyanavabodhanat vijnananam svacittadrsyamatranavatarena mahamate valaprthagjanah bhavabhavasvabhavaparamarthadrstidvayavadino bhavanti. 15. Compare Nagarjuna's karika, B.T.S., p 196, Akasami sasarnganca bandhyayah putra eva ca asantascabhivyajyante tathabhavena kalpana, with Gaudapada's karika, III. 28, Asato mayaya janma tatvato naiva jayate bandhyaputro na tattvena mayaya vapi jayate. 16. The very name Alatasanti is absolutely Buddhistic. Compare Nagarjuna's karika, B.T.S, p. 206, where he quotes a verse from the Sataka. 17. The use of the word dharma in the sense of appearance or entity is peculiarly Buddhistic. The Hindu sense is that given by Jaimini, "Codanalaksanah arthah, darmah." Dharma is determined by the injunctions of the Vedas.

** Jai Radhe ------------------ PEACE NOW

Same OLD with YOU as well MC..... You come on to forums and claim your just new and lurking and learning etc. Then all of a sudden your emeshed in some debate with someone WAY out of your league like Jagat and anybody else using your fancy fonts like your some big scholar. But then you come on here and say "Geee I'm new and just lurking and learning" I laughed my ass off when I read that one Homer! You don't fool me at all! Go ahead give it your best shot homeboy! If you want in on this let's keep your ATTACKS with SIDDHANTA (if you can)! By the way what can you contribute to the thread regarding Ananta Vausudeva or Sundarananda Vidyavinode. jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

ANY dissagreement with Sarasvata line..is considered ATTACK..! In reality it's the other way around, meaning that pretty much all other Gaudiya Vaishnavas outside the missions of GM & branches have been BRANDED as sahajiya, mayavadi, whore mongers etc. by them, thus isolating themselves from the greater Gaudiya Vaishnav community in India (which is in the 100's of 1000's. Actually the Missions of Gaudiya Math & it's branches are a minority in the Chaitanya Vaishnava Religion. They would like to claim ALL as members but cannot so instead they brand them as demons, sahajiya's and mayavadi's! And when we speak up we are ATTACKING? Excuse me but you are demanding a double standard..! It's like Jehovas Witnesses claiming the rights to ALL of Christianity and demanding all other branches follow their fanatical guidelines or burn in hell. jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

Oh yea he was a demon who ran off with a prostitute....sounds like the typical smearing of those who left the fold of the mission. Isn't it funny that anyone on the outside OR anyone who ever leaves these missions OR disagrees are smeared in this way! While all the time such incredible crimes are going on inside those institutions that are never mentioned and covered up? ------------------ PEACE NOW

From; "THE PARAMPARA INSTITUTION IN GAUDIYA VAISNAVISM" by Jan Brzezinski (Jagadananda dasa) The Gaudiya Math after Bhaktisiddhanta's death Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati left a council of three governors to handle the affairs of the Math, Ananta Vasudeva, Paramananda and Kuñjavihari, without designating any of them as acarya. All three were brahmacaris, and with the presence of a sizable contingent of samnyasins, it does not seem that his intention was that this was anything other than an ad hoc group meant to handle the management of the properties and the continued publication of books. Nevertheless, Kuñjavihari (who upon taking samnyasa in 1948 became Bhaktivilasa Tirtha) and Ananta Vasudeva (who in 1943 became Bhaktiprasada Puri) had their individual charisma and each had his own group of dedicated followers. In an election that was held some time after Sarasvati's death in 1937, Ananta Vasudeva was made acarya, but this was considered by Kuñja Vihari's followers to be contrary to the will of Sarasvati who had seemingly given priority to Kuñja in his last statements and was familiarly called guru-prestha ('most dear to the guru'). Lawsuits, etc., followed and the disciples of Sarasvati either fell into the camp of one of these two or left in disgust to strike out independently. Sridhar Maharaja, Kesava Maharaja, Madhava Maharaja, Gosvami Maharaja, Bharati Maharaj, etc., all founded their own maths in the 1940's and 50's. Puri Maharaja, or Puri Das as he later called himself, and his close associate Sundarananda Vidyavinoda took up a spirited regimen of scholarly criticism of their own movement. They abandoned secondary literature and concentrated on the primary works of the six Gosvamins of Vrndavana. Puri Maharaj was particularly unhappy about the proselytizing work of the Gaudiya Math which he considered to have been overly zealous and ill-informed, offensive and against the true spirit of Vaisnavism. To a great extent these two leaders of the organization were disillusioned by the rapaciousness of Puri Maharaja's opponents in the math succession battles, which they came to attribute to the very nature of the math institution itself. Yukta-vairagya was a difficult discipline, indeed; the vices associated with wealth, reputation and power were not the monopoly of any religious school. Puri Maharaja gradually came to accept the necessity for initiation in an accredited disciplic line and advised all of his disciples to seek diksa from such gurus. The position formulated on the basis of early writings of Caitanya's followers was expounded in Sundarananda's treatise, 'The characteristics of the guru according to Vaisnava theology' (Vaisnava-siddhante Sri-guru-svarupa). Though Sundarananda's work is exhaustive in its critique of Gaudiya Math deviations from scripture and tradition (without ever once mentioning it or its founder by name), perhaps the most important problem underlined by him in his research is the need for the connection to the guru in order to engage in the service of Radha and Krsna in a spiritual identity. According to Jiva Gosvamin, at the time of initiation, the guru reveals this relationship along with the mantra. This information is given the name of siddha-pranali, or otherwise as ekadasa-bhava. Bhaktivinoda himself wrote about this in several places in his works and there is little doubt that he adhered to this aspect of the tradition. The traditions of the renunciate Gaudiya community in Braj and Radha Kund hold that historically devotees would seek initiation from a family spiritual master from whom they would receive this siddha-pranali. Only then were they eligible to engage in the practice of raganuga bhakti. Legends which confirm the necessity of a bona-fide initiation to enter into the esoteric aspects of the religious life are many, such as the case of Madhusudana Dasa Babaji, who tried to commit suicide because he had not received siddha-pranali from his initiating guru and was thus refused instruction by the leading teachers of Braj, and that of Jayakrsna Dasa Babaji who sent a disciple back to Bengal to seek this data from his spiritual master, etc. Followers of the Gaudiya Math hold that the siddha-pranali tradition is not to be found in the earliest texts of the school. They have a very different idea of the practice of raganuga bhakti. The spiritual identity is something which comes out of one's inner being as a result of purification through spiritual practice and not through formal instruction. This implication is present in the following statement by Sridhara Maharaja: To get the mantra from a sad-guru, a genuine guru, means to get the internal good will or real conception about the Lord. The seed of a banyan tree may be a small seed, but the great big banyan tree will come out of that seed. The will with which the particular sound is given by the guru to the disciple is all-important. We may not trace that at present, but in time, if a favorable environment is there, it will express itself and develop into something great. ;^) ------------------ PEACE NOW

That is one of the biggest fabricated stories EVER! The Radha Ramana Gosvamis would attest to the falseness in that, they are the ones who sponsered Ananta Vasudeva when he came to Braja and helped him in the publication of his books. Your story is the standard Gaudiya Math story that was conjured up after the Math was split up to HIDE some of the findings of Ananta Vasudeva and Sundarananda Vidyavinode,it was feed to the ones who stayed behind who were simply without the facts! jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

In your opinion dude...sorry but it is a big difference according to the tradition itself. I respect your perspective very much shvu, sorry but you are not an expert on this and are off base a bit ------------------ PEACE NOW

oi gavald..! jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

quote: Sarasvata-paribar is clear linked with Nityananda/Jahnava Thakurani's line of pañcaratrika diksa. Then why is she not given proper acknowledgement in Bhaktisiddhantas siksha sampradaya...I mean think about it! HER NAME IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN HIS LIST! But yet the claim of belonging to her parivar! And why pray tell should the name of Ma Jahnavis parivar be changed to Sarasvata paribar? jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

Indeed... ------------------ PEACE NOW

whatever.... this is gettin old quick! later! ------------------ PEACE NOW

OK OK .... ------------------ PEACE NOW

Gaurachandraji, I appreciate your wanting peace.... I want it as well and would like to see a vaishnav forum where that existed. As much as I would like to see peace I would also like to see TRUTH. ------------------ PEACE NOW

21st CENTURY SCHIZOID MAN Cat's foot iron claw Neuro-surgeons scream for more At paranoia's poison door. Twenty first century schizoid man. Blood rack barbed wire Polititians' funeral pyre Innocents raped with napalm fire Twenty first century schizoid man. Death seed blind man's greed Poets' starving children bleed Nothing he's got he really needs Twenty first century schizoid man. ------------------ PEACE NOW

I think I am beginning to see what is up here.... this forum is headed down VNN Blvd.! ------------------ PEACE NOW

quote: Who has seen a miracle? I mean you personally, or someone whom you can really trust? > I have personally several times shvu....but dare not disclose them on this forum! jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

Yea the real problem is trying to turn the entire tradition into a Jehovas Witness missionary movement and being critical towards all other Gaudiya Vaishnavas who won't join in with their fanatical chest beating! jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW

Don't waste your time debating with Satya...he will post any LIE or Stretch of the truth to win ANY debate! jijaji ------------------ PEACE NOW